Faith

[CarolK]

I know and believe that faith is a gift from God. If he doesnt give it to us, we wont have it. But I don't understand why Christ says things like:

Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Matthew 6:30

And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? Mark 4:40


When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith , no, not in Israel. Matthew 8:10


Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. Matthew 17:17

If he gives us the amount of faith we have (and he does), why does he then say such as the above.

I would love to have more faith. I hate being a person of little faith, but I cant just muster it up myself. I would like to be one of the ones with great faith, but he has to give it to me. So why does he then complain that I have little faith? I don't understand.

Thanks for any input.

Many Blessings in Christ,
Carol

[whs1]

Carol K said...


"I would like to be one of the ones with great faith, but he has to give it to me. So why does he then complain that I have little faith? I don't understand."


Bill

Because he wants us to ask for it and depend soley upon Him to give it to us so that when he does we will completely rely upon him and give him all the glory when we have faith. Jesus said also: "Without me ye can do nothing."

There must be a medium between the verses you pointed out and this verse above.

[wildboar]

This does present a problem for the anti-duty faith folk. However, God is perfectly righteous and just in commanding people to do that which they are incapable of doing. Faith is a gift from God. Yet we are rational beings and because of that God is able to demand faith of us. But we have no desire to respond in faith. We hate God by nature and faith must be given to us.

[whs1]

What is the problem it creates for the "anti-duty" faith folks?

[Ivor Thomas]

This does present a problem for the anti-duty faith folk. However, God is perfectly righteous and just in commanding people to do that which they are incapable of doing. Faith is a gift from God. Yet we are rational beings and because of that God is able to demand faith of us. But we have no desire to respond in faith. We hate God by nature and faith must be given to us. The old nature or flesh is put to death, we have anew nature that does not hate God we are to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, the ones who live by duty faith are walking in the flesh and Hate God. Ivor Thomas.:cool:

[Eileen]

Carol,

Someone said to me once (trying to bring me comfort) that there are those who have more faith than I do........they were well meaning in what they were saying however it took me many years of struggle to be at peace to say:

"Yes, that may be true, but I have faith". Isn't that afterall what is important?? The gift and the measure are all from God and I can say Praise His name that He has given me faith.

Peace to you!

[wildboar]

whs:

Because Jesus is commanding people to do what they are unable to do of themselves. I think you made a good point though is saying that we are to show our dependence upon God for our faith. It often pleases the Father to give us what we need after we pray for it, not that prayer changes the mind of God.

[Ivor Thomas]

Carol maybe the way you are useing or looking at scriptures for instance, little faith as used their only by the Lord was a tender rebuke for anxiety, faithless was for unbelievers etc, have a look at each one you quoted. you will find they dont apply the way you seem to think they do. Think of the way it applies. Thanks Ivor Thomas.:cool:

[whs1]

So, wildboar, are you saying that Christ expects us to have more faith than he gives us?

That is the interesting point here. I find myself crying out for more faith because of my lack of faith in Christ for his sufficiency to help me and that totally in my temptations. I earnestly believe that Christ will not withhold the giving of more faith if we know that we are completely dependant upon God for the giving of faith to us for his glory.


Bill

[Eileen]

So, wildboar, are you saying that Christ expects us to have more faith than he gives us?

That is the interesting point here. I find myself crying out for more faith because of my lack of faith in Christ for his sufficiency to help me and that totally in my temptations. I earnestly believe that Christ will not withhold the giving of more faith if we know that we are completely dependant upon God for the giving of faith to us for his glory.


Bill
Hey Bill,

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. It sounds like you are saying that Christ will give us more faith in answer to our prayers as long as we know certain things. Isn't this conditional something???? Sorry to be a pill but I don't agree with that statement.

[wildboar]

So, wildboar, are you saying that Christ expects us to have more faith than he gives us?
God does not expect what He has not decreed. However, God can command people to do what He has not decreed that they do.

That is the interesting point here. I find myself crying out for more faith because of my lack of faith in Christ for his sufficiency to help me and that totally in my temptations. I earnestly believe that Christ will not withhold the giving of more faith if we know that we are completely dependant upon God for the giving of faith to us for his glory.
I agree, but we still struggle with the old man who still believes he is self-sufficient and has no need for God. God will certainly increase our faith and even those who have just been regenerated can have full assurance, and we ought to pray that He increase our faith and repent for our unbelief.

[Eileen]

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him"?

"I believe, help thou my unbelief"

Oftentimes, the faith that we so desire and pray for is given through the "instruments" of testing and trial.

"My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations, knowing this that the trying of your faith worketh patience"

Much like you have been through Bill, God answers our prayers because He loves us!

[Bill Ross]

<Carol>
>>I know and believe that faith is a gift from God....

<Bill>
Carol, "faith" is not a "thing" but rather "believing." The scriptures never say that faith is a gift from God. Rather, faith is something that a man (or woman?!) does with his heart.

You are quite correct to see the inconsistency of the popular reading of Eph 2 that so many take to mean that faith is a gift. No, the Greek does not allow that reading.

Faith is a response to the scriptures. Jesus can complain, get angry, marvel and invite but he cannot manipulate a man´s heart. It is the work of a man to believe, not of the christ.

Bill Ross

[Mickey]

You are quite correct to see the inconsistency of the popular reading of Eph 2 that so many take to mean that faith is a gift. No, the Greek does not allow that reading.

I'm curious Bill, why is that?

I see that you have been around this forum for a while. So I will assume that you have read through a lot of the threads here that address this subject and still remain in disagreement. Statements such as these:

Faith is a response to the scriptures. Jesus can complain, get angry, marvel and invite but he cannot manipulate a man´s heart. It is the work of a man to believe, not of the christ.

Thats interesting Bill. Your god can't, but my God can and He does! (Jeremiah 10:23, Prov 19:21, Daniel 4:35, Phil 2:13, Eph 1:11, Prov 20:24) Can you exegete these scriptures? Or will you just ignore them? Do I take these scriptures out of context or do I take them too literal?

This is a perfect example of the false christ that you and many others worship Bill. I'm sure you have heard this all before, especially if you have been around this forum for a while--thats whats troubling. Why in the world, as a professing believer are you and those that push this free-will heresy so adamant about robbing God of His glory? Why don't you give credit where credit is due Bill?

Soli Deo Gloria,

Mike

[Brandan Kraft]

Reformed SSGT, Bill doesn't even believe in the deity of Christ.

[Bill Ross]

<Mike>
>>I'm curious Bill, why is that?

<Bill>
TOUTO is neuter, PISTEWS is feminine.

Eph 2:8 th {T-DSF} gar {CONJ} cariti {N-DSF} este {V-PXI-2P} seswsmenoi {V-RPP-NPM} dia {PREP} ***pistews {N-GSF}*** kai {CONJ} ***touto {D-NSN}*** ouk {PRT-N} ex {PREP} umwn {P-2GP} yeou {N-GSM} to {T-NSN} dwron {N-NSN}

In Greek, as in many languages, you have to have agreement of gender. So, despite the volumes of books that appeal to this as a prooftext, it is obviously impossible.

<M>
>>...Thats interesting Bill. Your god can't, but my God can and He does! (Jeremiah 10:23, Prov 19:21, Daniel 4:35, Phil 2:13, Eph 1:11, Prov 20:24) Can you exegete these scriptures? Or will you just ignore them? Do I take these scriptures out of context or do I take them too literal?

<B>
* Jesus is not God, so the texts are irrelevant
* the texts you cited last time illustrate my position
* the texts you cite here do not indicate that Yehovah directly manipulates the heart, and there are hosts that show that he will not.

Lets take Jer 10:23, though, for an example:

Young's Literal:
23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Does this say to you that man has no volition? Or is it not actually saying that people cannot *accomplish* all that they will, but are rather dependent on Yehovah to establish their plans?

<M>
>>This is a perfect example of the false christ that you and many others worship Bill.

<B>
The worshipped christ is the antichrist. I do not worship christ!:

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rev 13:
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

<M>
...that push this free-will heresy so adamant about robbing God of His glory? Why don't you give credit where credit is due Bill?

<B>
God's sovereignty is not expressed by controlling men's actions but rather by judging them.

Bill Ross

[foundinHim]

In " Studies in Southern Presbyterian Theology " by Morton Smith , there is a section on Mr. Baxter . Within that section is a statement attributed primarily to Baxter addressed to the Synod of Virginia in 1836 .

" The ability of the sinner is sometimes rashly and erroneously exhibited , as if he were able to convert himself , and make himself a new heart independently of the sovereign , regenerating and converting grace of God . This doctrine , when carried out , goes to the subversion of the whole system of the gospel . Yet on this point we feel called on to say that there is on the other side an error which leads to an extreme equally dangerous and subversive of the Christian faith . We mean the error of those who assert that the sinner has no power of any kind for the performane of duty . This error strips the sinner of his moral agency and accountableness , and introduces the heresy of either Antinomianism or fatalism . The true doctrine of our confession , and as we believe of the Scriptures , keeps , keeps continually in view the moral agency of man -- the contingency of second causes -- the use of means , and the utter inexcusableness of the creature ; whilst at the same time it places all our dependence for salvation , on the sovereign power and grace of God , in the regeneration and justification of the sinner . Therefore , whilst Synod do constantly affirm that by the fall the human understanding has been greatly darkened , the faculties of the soul greatly impaired , and through the depravity of the heart the human will is , entirely deprived of freedom to that which is good , and is free only to that which is evil , and that continually ; yet they do assert that they cannot approve of any language which in its fair interpretation deprives man of his moral agency -- denying that his enmity is voluntary , or teaching that it is any wise excusable . "

[Javelin]

In response to Bill:

John 12:40,41 compared with Isaiah 6:1-10 most assuredly declares the deity of Jesus Christ. Moreover, the Old Testament repeatedly declares that men should not place trust in creatures/men, yet Jesus calls us to believe in Him. "Believe in God; believe also in Me." Christ calls us to the same kind of faith we are to place in God because He is God---as the old writers said: "very God and very Man." Recommed you obtain Bickersteth's book on the Trinity.

Question for the Anti-Duty Faith folks:

The command to believe in Jesus is presented in the NT using Greek imperatives. In John 3, Jesus compares this call to faith with the call to look at the brazen serpent. There was no less Divine Sovereignty involved in giving people the gift of turning their necks and peering at that snake than there was in giving folks the gift of faith. Both involve(d) a response of the will and mind. Both involved sovereign providence. So, do you really believe that the imperative applies to some (the elect) and not to others (the non-elect)? Please help me understand your position.

[AgnusDei]

* Jesus is not God, so the texts are irrelevant

What about John 20:28 for the Deity of Christ:

"Thomas answered him [Jesus], 'My Lord and my God!'"

Or Col. 2:9-10

"For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily, and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority."

Fulness of deity? Head of ALL rule and authority? Smells like God to me. =)

[ray kikkert]

<

<B>
* Jesus is not God, so the texts are irrelevant
* the texts you cited last time illustrate my position
* the texts you cite here do not indicate that Yehovah directly manipulates the heart, and there are hosts that show that he will not.

Lets take Jer 10:23, though, for an example:

Young's Literal:
23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Does this say to you that man has no volition? Or is it not actually saying that people cannot *accomplish* all that they will, but are rather dependent on Yehovah to establish their plans?


<B>
The worshipped christ is the antichrist. I do not worship christ!:

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Bill Ross

Bill, I must admit that I did not see this discussion before, but you make some disturbing comments about Jesus Christ. John chapter 1 or 1 John chapters 1-5, in fact the whole of Scripture is centred around Jesus Christ. Christ was from before creation, at creation, throughout creation, and on through eternity. You seem to deny this so then I ask you to gird up yourself and defend your statements against what God Himself is rebuking you in His own Word here.

[Robert R. Higby]

I think Bill is not currently active here.

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Anyone with the ability to comprehend what they read can clearly see Jesus' personal claim to deity in John, Chaper 8.

[doctr_of_grace]

I think Bill is not currently active here.
Exchanging posts with Bill is a complete waste of time. I usually don't make that sort of statement publically but when someone has no desire to learn and only has an agenda to put out they will suck you dry of patience, time and even perhaps get you entertaining their skewed way of reading scripture. hahaha I learned this the hard way a few months ago in exchanging a couple of posts with him. He is very dangerous and it is better to use your time on more enlightening subjects IMHO.

Carolk ... your subject is valid and worth entertaining. It is better not to let someone like "Bill Ross" take it in whole other direction.

Jan

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Anyone with the ability to comprehend what they read can clearly see Jesus' personal claim to deity in John, Chaper 8.

Make that Chapter 6! :D