Are false confessions valid? [Archive]

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doctr_of_grace

12-18-2004, 08:09 AM

This was something I started in the "Gill on Common Grace" thread and I feel it is not actually part of the subject matter.

I am sure much of this has been addressed elsewhere but I am just curious how some of you think about this idea of a "false confession".

Would you say that given the nature of man in sin, a true Christian confession MUST be the work of the Holy Spirit?
Does anyone disagree that a confession must be the work of the Holy Spirit?

I originally asked this question to Joe but wouldn't mind anyone's response ...

Would anyone say that the Holy Spirit would grant a confession which blasphemes the Lord Jesus Christ?

Would you agree that believing the difference between heaven and hell has NOTHING to do with Christ but EVERYTHING to do with man is to blaspheme the Lord Jesus Christ.

Does not "freewillism" blaspheme the Lord Jesus Christ? Please give me your reasons why or why not.

My next question after this is ...
Since this is the profession of the vast majority of professing Christians today, is it possible that these people's confession was produced by the Holy Spirit?

Thanks .... Jan

lionovjudah

12-18-2004, 07:25 PM

Eileen

12-18-2004, 09:16 PM

Hi Jan,

Romans 10: 9,10....13

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation, 13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

Are you asking if we can judge if a person's confession of Christ is true or not? Can we judge by their confession if they are going to heaven or hell, can we know for sure they are the elect??

My personal stand on the above issue has always been that God alone can see in a heart and know if the confession of the mouth is valid or not. I refuse to judge the final destiny of any soul. I do believe we can correct wrong doctrine if given the chance, but we must trust the outcome of that to God also, as He gives ears to hear to whom He chooses.

Does this even address what you are asking??:rolleyes:

Bill Ross

12-19-2004, 03:13 PM

<Jan>
>>...Would you say that given the nature of man in sin, a true Christian confession MUST be the work of the Holy Spirit?

<Bill>
Are you trying to deduce something not taught in scripture? Or are you trying to interpret a particular passage?

<J>
>>...Does anyone disagree that a confession must be the work of the Holy Spirit?


There is no "the Holy Spirit" in the scriptures. The scripture teaches of "holy breath."

<J>
...Would anyone say that the Holy Spirit would grant a confession which blasphemes the Lord Jesus Christ?


Of course not:

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit [PNEUMA=breath] of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord [lord Jesus], but by the Holy Ghost [by means of holy breath].

<J>
>>Would you agree that believing the difference between heaven and hell has NOTHING to do with Christ but EVERYTHING to do with man is to blaspheme the Lord Jesus Christ.


The scriptures do not speak of "heaven and hell" but rather "eternal life" and "death." Ie: "the wages of sin is *death* but the gift of God is *eternal life.*"

Nor is this a function of "Christ" but of believing:

"...whosoever believeth..."

<J>
>>Does not "freewillism" blaspheme the Lord Jesus Christ? Please give me your reasons why or why not.


Not:

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

ie: God wants people to be like him, so he made us people who are begotten by the intelligent word, not by force.

<J>
>>My next question after this is ...
Since this is the profession of the vast majority of professing Christians today, is it possible that these people's confession was produced by the Holy Spirit?


Most professing Christians today worship The Trinity, hence, they know not God but an idol.

Further, this list is populated by people that vilify faith as an evil "work" and therefore cannot please God:

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

For example, Jan, do you believe that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him? Or do you think that concept is a heresy?

PLEASE RESPOND to the above question.

Thanks,

Bill Ross

doctr_of_grace

12-20-2004, 06:42 AM

Jan, do you believe that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him? Or do you think that concept is a heresy?Bill .... I have nothing to say to your other accusations but I will respond to the above question. God rewards eternal life to them that diligently seek him. Here is the point though by believing that "accepting" Christ is the reason for salvation you have made it your work not God's. I have heard many folks justify such a thing and say well it is God that changed my heart and gave me the gift but inorder for it to be applied to me personally I had to accept that gift. The other problem with this line of thinking is obvious to most in this forum ... That the Holy Spirit (which does exist) does this ineffectually for millions. I am yet to here someone that holds to "freewillism" say that God is not sovereign or that God did not work in their life. They fail to see the contradiction of their beliefs and/or refuse to admit that their system of theology demonstrates God as a miserable failure. In fact when this is pointed out to many they get angry and leave the discussion.

The only man that will seek God diligently is the one whom God has made to seek Him diligently. PERIOD!! So Sir Bill ... I don't think that concept is a heresy. It is just not the thing that saves. The seeking of God is a result of not a condition of salvation.

doctr_of_grace

12-20-2004, 07:12 AM

Are you asking if we can judge if a person's confession of Christ is true or not? Can we judge by their confession if they are going to heaven or hell, can we know for sure they are the elect??I guess I am asking if "believerism/freewillism" is blasphemous? Does it assault God and who God is? If this is true then then next logical question is ... would God use something that blasphemys His name as a way of saving someone?

Many including a few in my own church believe that we can't judge the heart of a person by their words ... I think scripture says otherwise and would like to be corrected if I am in error.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
In answer to your question ... No ... I can't know whether a person that is holding to a false confession is elect. I am wondering though if you believe that it is a "FALSE" confession. I am still not sure that is your stance. I think that needs to be determined before we call it evil.

If you accept that freewillism is a false confession I do think you can conclude they are not elect at the time they are holding to this false confession. Whether or not God will bring them into the kingdom is another point. I believe the correct terminology would be that a person holding to a false confession is unregenerate. It appears you have a problem in making that distinction. So it comes down to whether or not you consider the arminian/free will confession as something that is not evil.

Here is how I see it even further ... If free willism is merely a misunderstanding it truly turns the "doctrine of grace" into intellectualism and in a sense "elitist" type belief. I am just smarter than that guy that can't get it. This thinking really bothers me. I have seen it demonstrated on Paltalk and I don't see anyway of getting around it if you can and do call someone that holds to "freewill" theology your brother. I believe you are guilty of ... (Isa 5:20 KJV) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

I think it is truly something that someone that claims to hold to "reformed" (for lack of a better term) theology must deal with. This is because as I stated earlier the majority of the evangelical western church holds to such a thing. I think it is a very fair question to ask if it is something that in fact does blaspheme God. This is where and when I get be labeled Hyper. I am often accused of "doctrinal regeneration". Therefore the entire point has been missed. It isn't doctrine that saves at all but good solid doctrine that glorifies God is the result of salvation.

Thanks for your response Eileen ... Lovingly In Christ ... Jan

lionovjudah

12-20-2004, 07:38 AM

Jan:

Once again we have entered the realm of the "In or out" syndrome. Will you please address one question for me.

Can you show me ONE instance of Scripture where this is even hinted at.

1) The woman at the well.
2) Zaccheaus
3) The woman with the issue of blood
4) The apostles.
5) Martha
6) the adulterous
7) Bartimeaus
8) Centurions son

The list is endless. Please cite ONE instance where we see any result of salvation leading to a "correct theology".. All I read is these people were complete, made whole, in Christ. Perhaps I am missing it.

Would the apostle peter be unregenerate when he denied our Lord, his Lord, 3 times?

Would the author who penned the book of James be unregenerate because of his mentioning of works?

I just do not see the reason to even think this way. Christ came to save sinners. While we were His enemies He died for us. He seeks and saves those who are lost.

I know Scriptures attest to the work of our triune God in making one willing. That regeneration preceedes faith. But I do nto see one list of TULIP in scripture as a result of salvation.

All I know is there is a road to hell for the sovereign grace believer if not covered by the blood as well as the free will believer. We all practice believerism.

From what I have read about the early church, there were certain confessions that were hammered out to be orthodox. The diety of Christ, Trinity, Inspiration of Scripture, Two natures of Christ. I cannot find one instance of alot of what some consider a true confession in here debated to be in the orthodox box. Does that mean all who have lived prior to these doctrines were not regenerate, elect? Does that mean that Auggie and Gotschalk were the only 2 true elect for a thousand years? You say our bel;ieving does nto save us, but conclude that believing wrong damns us. or labels us as non elect. I just do nto see scripture speaking this way at all.

If God ordains ALL things that happen, then what choice does one have if they confess an arminian doctrine? DO you so graciously grant them free will for what they believe only? I do not think it can be both ways.

Grace and Peace

Joe

Eileen

12-20-2004, 08:09 AM

Hi Jan,

I have a few minutes this morning before I go off to work so I will get a quick response in before this evening.

I don't know if you have ever noticed but I don't participate in any of the discussions on whether someone else is regenerate or not because of their lack of doctrine. I wasn't sure that was what you were asking or not.

As I said in my earlier post, I refuse to judge another's heart....period. Quite honestly Jan I am convicted that is none of my business, it is God's business alone. He created all souls and they are His to do with as He chooses, that is my comfort and my conviction...

I am called to share the gospel not judge who believes it. Who believes is the call of the Lord, so I won't debate this issue with anyone.

Isaiah 46:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else".

I will leave it there and let others debate with you.

In Love,

Eileen~

doctr_of_grace

12-20-2004, 08:25 AM

Right off the problem I see with your analysis is that we are only given a very small thumb print of each of these folks .... Can you show me any instance with any of the above mentioned that they actually held to "believerism" or free willism? You are arguing from a "silent" viewpoint I believe.
Would the apostle Peter be unregenerate when he denied our Lord, his Lord, 3 times?I personally am unaware of the exact moment Peter was renegerated. I think it is possible he could have been at that time because we see he wept upon realization of his horrific sin. It can also be argued that he along with the rest of the apostles were given access to the Holy Spirit in the upper room after Christ's death and resurrection. Personally I am not really sure. What I am saying doesn't mean that a person will never sin. Remember that Christ said you can blaspheme me and be forgiven. It is blaspheming the Holy Spirit that won't be forgiven.

Does that mean all who have lived prior to these doctrines were not regenerate, elect? Does that mean that Auggie and Gotschalk were the only 2 true elect for a thousand years?I am not sure it was an issue in the first century church. I am POSITIVE that these doctrines did NOT come about with auggie and Goschalk. This is basic stuff here Joe ...

Am I to conclude from your response that you don't believe it is blasmphous to hold to freewillism? You seem to be saying that taking credit for your salvation has nothing to do with the Gospel. Is that your stance? If that is your stance then I think you need to deal with this ...

If free willism is merely a misunderstanding it truly turns the "doctrine of grace" into intellectualism and in a sense "elitist" type belief. I am just smarter than that guy that can't get it. This thinking really bothers me. I have seen it demonstrated on Paltalk and I don't see anyway of getting around it if you can and do call someone that holds to "freewill" theology your brother.I haven't seen this addressed by you at all. To deny that truth matters I personally believe turns you into someone that holds to "intellectual superiority", when it comes to dealing with BASIC gospel truths.

Can you show me where in scripture one takes credit for believing and receiving the Holy Spirit? That in order for salvation to be effectual you have to "receive the gift"? Or even attached to that .... The Holy Spirit tries yet fails at getting that confession of faith from one of the elect?

Thanks in advance .... Jan

doctr_of_grace

12-20-2004, 08:31 AM

As I said in my earlier post, I refuse to judge another's heart....period. Quite honestly Jan I am convicted that is none of my business, it is God's business alone. He created all souls and they are His to do with as He chooses, that is my comfort and my conviction... Eileen ... this is COOL ... no problemo ... I am not just arguing for the sake of argument.
It is something I have struggled with for a long time. I have dealt with both sides of the issue and understand it can often be a futile debate. I have come to the conclusion that it does matter and for the reason I stated above. If it doesn't matter then I am merely smarter then the one that rejects it. I think that is silly.

Hope you aren't upset with me .... Jan

lionovjudah

12-20-2004, 08:45 AM

Jan: I get confused when I ask a question that is answered with a question...hahahahaha So I do nto know where to beging again. Why do you do that to me? The scruiptures are silent and that is why I am silent on the matter.

Peter was regenerated when he was called. Prior to his proclaiming Christ is the Messiah.

I am not sure it was an issue in the first century church. I am POSITIVE that these doctrines did NOT come about with auggie and Goschalk. This is basic stuff here Joe ...

They certainly were not stressed at all Jan. If they were, they would have been included in the creeds.

Am I to conclude from your response that you don't believe it is blasmphous to hold to freewillism? You seem to be saying that taking credit for your salvation has nothing to do with the Gospel. Is that your stance? If that is your stance then I think you need to deal with this ...

I do nto consider it blashpemous. Because then believing is a condition of salvation.

I haven't seen this addressed by you at all. To deny that truth matters I personally believe turns you into someone that holds to "intellectual superiority", when it comes to dealing with BASIC gospel truths.

I believe that truth matters Jan. But again, what truths? The Gospel is Good news for sinners is it not? My concern is not who is elect or not. My concern is thanking God for His regeneration of this sinful vile person I am. And I know it is all His work. Now I again wil repeat my questions to you. Please answer them...

DO you believe there is a road to hell for the sovereign grace believer if not covered by the blood as well as the free will believer. We all practice believerism.

If God ordains ALL things that happen, then what choice does one have if they confess an arminian doctrine? DO you so graciously grant them free will for what they believe only? I do not think it can be both ways.

Brandan Kraft

12-20-2004, 09:50 AM

As I said in my earlier post, I refuse to judge another's heart....period.Amen. I only judge someone's outward actions and confession. Because someone cannot effectively communicate limited atonement or imputed righteousness also is not evidence necessary to judge someone as regenerate or not. However, if someone goes on some blasphemous tirade on free will and declare that their salvation is dependent upon what they do - I can conclude that the person doesn't know the Lord Jesus. I'm not condemning them to hell - they may very well be a long lost brother of mine.

Quite honestly Jan I am convicted that is none of my business, it is God's business alone. He created all souls and they are His to do with as He chooses, that is my comfort and my conviction... Amen. The problem I have with all this "judging" is because it's not our business to go around and declare people as regenerate and unregenerate. That's Marc Carpenter's problem - it's his focus. It takes our eyes off of the righteousness of Christ and His gospel. I have my own opinion that Spurgeon was a double minded fork tongued preacher - and I would not fellowship with him based on what I perceive in his actions and words - but I do not know if he died a regenerate child of God or not.

Isaiah 46:22 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else".This is one of my favorite passages of Scripture - as it was John Gill's as well.

Anyway, I don't want to get sucked into this conversation. If someone promotes a false gospel - that means they don't know the Lord... If someone promotes the true gospel - that doesn't mean they know the Lord. Only the Lord knows who are His. I will only fellowship with those that I perceive to be Christians (which is a form of judging) based on their actions and profession - they may very well be tares - but as far as I'm concerned, I will consider them to be my brother or sister.

- BJK

Bill Ross

12-20-2004, 12:55 PM

<DoctoredUpGrace>
>>...Bill .... I have nothing to say to your other accusations but I will respond to the above question. God rewards eternal life to them that diligently seek him.

<Bill>
Does God repay them for nothing? I mean, is God in the habit of rewarding inappropriately? Or is there something just about it?:

Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

In other words, is Hebrews of the opinion that rewards are not linked to merit? I think not. God thinks not. He clearly says it shall "accord" to actions:

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Matt 25:
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Da 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

I could go on endlessly.

<Doc>
>>Here is the point though by believing that "accepting" Christ is the reason for salvation you have made it your work not God's.


Hardly. Receiving a gift is no grounds for boasting:

Ro 4:
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not <does not perform religious activities>, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So Paul explicitly and specifically excludes faith from the realm of "works" (religious activities), yet faith is pleasing to God and, coupled appropriately with the corresponding actions, wins favor with God. God rewards faith, because faith pleases him and because faith is a genuine human good and God rewards good.

<J>
>>...The other problem with this line of thinking is obvious to most in this forum ... That the Holy Spirit (which does exist) does this ineffectually for millions. I am yet to here someone that holds to "freewillism" say that God is not sovereign or that God did not work in their life. They fail to see the contradiction of their beliefs and/or refuse to admit that their system of theology demonstrates God as a miserable failure. In fact when this is pointed out to many they get angry and leave the discussion.


God is not culpable for the failures of men as he would be if he directly caused them.

<J>
>>The only man that will seek God diligently is the one whom God has made to seek Him diligently. PERIOD!! So Sir Bill ... I don't think that concept is a heresy. It is just not the thing that saves. The seeking of God is a result of not a condition of salvation.


Well, the scriptures disagree with your philosophy:

Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Bill Ross

Bill Ross

12-20-2004, 01:00 PM

lionovjudah

12-20-2004, 01:31 PM

<LionOfJudah>
>>...Peter was regenerated when he was called. Prior to his proclaiming Christ is the Messiah....

<Bill>
Acutally, while there are certain difficulties in either view, it seems clear to me that Peter was not converted until after the resurrection.

He certainly was not justified when he denied the lord Jesus, but Jesus had prayed that he would not die until his conversion.

Bill Ross

Nah, No way Mr Bill. For peter to call Him the Messiah. The SOn of the Living God, was the Work of the Spirit. That is regeneration. Your last statement is something that is so , I dont know what to call it, I dont even know where to begin my comment. Our actions do not "de-justify" us. God does nto aquit, then condemn later. That is a heresy far more wicked than many others. To think the Judge aquits, then punishes or dejustifies is terrible Bil.. Prayed that who would nto die until whos conversion? Your exegesis is out there man. phewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww...

Eileen

12-21-2004, 08:31 AM

Jan,

Just wanted to assure you, my friend, that I am in no way upset with you. We all have different things on our hearts that we must address and this is one you yours.

Have a great day and the Lord bless you

Eileen