Epistemological or Metaphysical indwelling of the Holy Spirit

[Mickey]

http://www.ibri.org/25regen.htm

I don't know anything about Robert J. Dunzweiler but I found this article interesting (It gets better towards the end).

This subject was mentioned in a comparison chart between Covenant Theology, NCT and MCT. Does anyone have any comments on this or any articles they have found helpful?

Mike

[doctr_of_grace]

Mike,

I enjoyed reading the article and I being CT'er agree with his conclusion in the end. One scripture that comes to mind is the one where David asks the Lord to not remove the Holy Spirit from him.

(Psa 51:11 KJV) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

If the Spirit wasn't with David why would David ask God not to take Him away? I think God is very consistent and has saved ppl the same way from Adam to today.

I disagree with Chafer's use of the verse in demonstrating a removing of the Holy Spirit. I believe that is a conclusion that is read into the text. If a person is treated differently during the OT times then they could not have been declared "righteous, blameless or faithful". For all of these are found only in the righteousness of Christ.

Thanks for the thought provoking article ... Jan

[Eileen]

I too in reading the comparisons of Brandan's on the CT, NCT, MCTwas very interested in what was actually meant in the use of the two words and of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Thanks for the article which I will read in-depth this evening.

I wrote to my pastor and asked his opinion of the definition of the two words and what they meant and this is what he said:

"The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not a matter of essence (not metaphysical)- that is, the essence or substance of the Holy Spirit is not dwelling in me in a way that He, being omnipresent, is not everywhere else. Rather, His indwelling is a matter of teaching me knowledge (epistemological) and transforming my behaviour (ethical). He is our teacher and comforter and applies the Word of God to us."

I'm not sure exactly how it worked in the OT Saints ,although too I think we must remember that many of them the Lord spoke to directly or through the prophets, but I believe the Holy Spirit was active, I just don't know to what extent or how much, if any, differences there were.

Something I have been studying a bit more upon it even being raised. More in-put would be appreciated........

Eileen~

[lionovjudah]

http://www.ibri.org/25regen.htm

I don't know anything about Robert J. Dunzweiler but I found this article interesting (It gets better towards the end).

This subject was mentioned in a comparison chart between Covenant Theology, NCT and MCT. Does anyone have any comments on this or any articles they have found helpful?

Mike
Mike can you please define what you or others mean by epistimoligical vs metaphysical? I for one have heard those terms used with distinct meanings.

Thanx

Joe

[Mickey]

No problem Joe, I will try my best...

Epistemological: The 'location' of the Holy Spirit has always been the same and will always remain the same. He is omni present and therefore His dwelling does not make a home inside the believer--much like we live in our homes--rather His relationship with us changes (He now teaches, comforts, convicts the believer and interceeds for them as well).

Metaphysical: The 'location' of the Holy Spirit is only present inside believers and not non-believers or the world. He makes His abode inside you much like we would a house (maybe like we sometimes think of a demon possesing someone?).

I tried to make these short and to the point. I myself have just started to study this so if I have not defined these terms well enough I apologize.

[lionovjudah]

No problem Joe, I will try my best...

Epistemological: The 'location' of the Holy Spirit has always been the same and will always remain the same. He is omni present and therefore His dwelling does not make a home inside the believer--much like we live in our homes--rather His relationship with us changes (He now teaches, comforts, convicts the believer and interceeds for them as well).

Metaphysical: The 'location' of the Holy Spirit is only present inside believers and not non-believers or the world. He makes His abode inside you much like we would a house (maybe like we sometimes think of a demon possesing someone?).

I tried to make these short and to the point. I myself have just started to study this so if I have not defined these terms well enough I apologize.
Thanx Mike. I always thought epistomology had to do with leaning and knowledge, what we 'stand upon" and why we believe as we do. So that is why I am having difficulties using that term to describe the Holy Spirit in relation to indwelling, living, renting or anythign else like that.

That is why I am confused about this thread. If we can clrify the meaning I will be more than happy to offer and understanding.


Joe

[Eileen]

Joe,

I think the terminology is a bit confusing myself. In my pastor's reply he said the following"

The epistemology: My understing is 'knowledge' also, (part of it), so I don't think you are incorrect. The Spirit indwells us in this way, by teaching us from the Word, that is how we have knowledge of Christ. I attached this in my mind to the scripture of "growing in grace and in knowledge", we do this through the indwelling of the Holy Spirt and His work in us.

The metphysical: There must be some who say that the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and is not therefore active in presence elsewhere. I think what the article that Mike posted alluded to is that the Spirit is active in the rest of the world also, not exclusively in believers which would be indwelling metaphysically.

I am like you, a firm understanding of the terminology is essential to our understanding. More research for me, I'm not quite there yet.

Eileen~

[lionovjudah]

"The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not a matter of essence (not metaphysical)- that is, the essence or substance of the Holy Spirit is not dwelling in me in a way that He, being omnipresent, is not everywhere else. Rather, His indwelling is a matter of teaching me knowledge (epistemological) and transforming my behaviour (ethical). He is our teacher and comforter and applies the Word of God to us."
Eileen~

Hello Eileen:

I believe this is only part of what Christianity is about. The work, or indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not only epistilogical in nature. Christianity is not only an assent to or belief in some truth, it is much more a living in the activity of Christ who is Truth (John 14:6). Jesus did not say, "I came that you might have certain beliefs and defend them with sword and fire." He said, "I came that you might have life (the very Being of God) and have such more abundantly (John 10:10). Having said this, Scripture attests that the work of the Holy Spirit is present in the elect to bring that person from death to life. The thought of seperating the triune God because of time, vis, OT and NT, is foreign to scripture. As far as indwelling the non believer, I do not see what that would consist of. What does the Holy Spirit have to dwell in the non believer for? To make that person "more" of a sinner? TO make that person "more" reprobate?

Perhaps I am missing the crux of this thread, and comparing what definitions Mike gave, and what Eileen quoted, I am getting more confused..hahaha:D.

Are we essentially trying to determine what the work of the Holy Spirit is in the OT? Are we attempting to determine what the work of the Holy Spirit is in the believer vs non believer? If you all can please clarify this for me I would appreciate it greatly.


Joe

[Eileen]

Hello to you Joe,

Mike's curiosity (it seems) stemmed from the comparison chart that Brandan posted in a different thread, CT, NCT & MCT, which used the words (epistemology and metaphysical). I was also intrigued as to what those words meant in regards to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whether in the OT saint or the NT saint.

That was my goal in asking my pastor.....what do these words mean, how do I apply them to the whole picture of the Holy Spirit's work? I haven't been able to finish reading the article posted, so I don't know if I agree with what is there or not........takes a bit of time for me.

Of coarse Christianity is more than these two words or what these two words mean. Discovering the meaning of these two words was just a step for me, perhaps others are only concerned about the indwelling of the OT saints, as for me, I am a NT saint and therefore want to know about the Spirit's work within me. This seemed like a good place to start.

I might be the one who took this thread in a different direction intended, if so, I certainly did mean to.

Does that help to clarify where I am coming from. If it is to be a discussion on OT saints only, that's ok too!

[Brandan Kraft]

Here is the discussion I had with Dr. Bacon on this topic - http://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=401

[lionovjudah]

Hello to you Joe,

Mike's curiosity (it seems) stemmed from the comparison chart that Brandan posted in a different thread, CT, NCT & MCT, which used the words (epistemology and metaphysical). I was also intrigued as to what those words meant in regards to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whether in the OT saint or the NT saint.

That was my goal in asking my pastor.....what do these words mean, how do I apply them to the whole picture of the Holy Spirit's work? I haven't been able to finish reading the article posted, so I don't know if I agree with what is there or not........takes a bit of time for me.

Of coarse Christianity is more than these two words or what these two words mean. Discovering the meaning of these two words was just a step for me, perhaps others are only concerned about the indwelling of the OT saints, as for me, I am a NT saint and therefore want to know about the Spirit's work within me. This seemed like a good place to start.

I might be the one who took this thread in a different direction intended, if so, I certainly did mean to.

Does that help to clarify where I am coming from. If it is to be a discussion on OT saints only, that's ok too!

Hello Eileen:

I was not directing that response to you, I was just looking for a place to start. I feel as if I have been asked to put a puzzle together without knowing where all the pieces are. Now Brandans Chart is brought into play. Mikes article, Mikes definitions, your pastors answer. Discovering the meaning is the step for me also, And I agree we have to start somewhere. I guess I need to find brandans chart, read Mikes article. Who knows what else.

Is there any way Mike or brandan can just present some obvuious questions, with precise definitions so I am nto fishing for and understanding of terms and application.


Joe

[Eileen]

Helloooooooo Joe!

I'm not sure where the confusion lies. I'm simply interested in this thread and trying to have some dialoug about this issue, therefore I made some contibution as to what I found out about the meanings of the words. I don't think anyone is trying to put a puzzle together, I think it is a new study area for me and sounded like for Mike too, how about you?

Do you have different meanings for the two words, if so what are they?

Maybe you don't care what the words mean or how we are to apply them in our thinking of the work of the Holy Spirit, that's ok too. I do like to understand what specific words mean. I read those two words in Brandan's paper and didn't have a clue as to what they were talking about because I had never heard those words......

What is your understanding of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in NT saints lives and how is that worked out? (this is where I linked part of it in my own mind to 'growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus, as part of the work of the Holy Spirit in my heart/mind)

Do you think it was exactly the same for the OT saints as the NT saints as pentecost had not happened yet? (I think it was somehow different than it is today, but I don't know how)

A few questions, not from Brandan or Mike though, sorry!

[lionovjudah]

Helloooooooo Joe!

I'm not sure where the confusion lies. I'm simply interested in this thread and trying to have some dialoug about this issue, therefore I made some contibution as to what I found out about the meanings of the words. I don't think anyone is trying to put a puzzle together, I think it is a new study area for me and sounded like for Mike too, how about you?

Do you have different meanings for the two words, if so what are they?

Maybe you don't care what the words mean or how we are to apply them in our thinking of the work of the Holy Spirit, that's ok too. I do like to understand what specific words mean. I read those two words in Brandan's paper and didn't have a clue as to what they were talking about because I had never heard those words......

What is your understanding of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in NT saints lives and how is that worked out? (this is where I linked part of it in my own mind to 'growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus, as part of the work of the Holy Spirit in my heart/mind)

Do you think it was exactly the same for the OT saints as the NT saints as pentecost had not happened yet? (I think it was somehow different than it is today, but I don't know how)

A few questions, not from Brandan or Mike though, sorry!

Helloooooooooo Eileen:

I will respond to this later. As I spent the last 20 minutes preparing a response, we had a power surge at work and my computer went blank!!!!!!!!!! I was 3 minutes away from hitting submit reply then poof!!!!!!!!

I AM IN TEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mickey]

I'm glad to see others here are as interested in learning more about this as I am. I know the dictionary definitions don't help us understand the theological definitions in full, so all I am left with FOR NOW is the link I posted and Brandan's chart. Keep in mind that (as I stated earlier) I have just started studying this myself so I'm not going to be defending one side or the other.
So lets give this discusion some direction.

1.) What do the scriptures say (OT and NT) about the omnipresents of the Holy Spirit?

Jer 23:24 - Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD.

Psalm 139:7-12 - Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
8If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
9If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,"
12even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

Eph 4:4-7 - There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. (This one may not apply?)

So it's clear God's presents is everywhere and in everything right?

I'm sure there are more scriptures, but I think we get the point.

The next step is to define what we mean by the Holy Spirit indwelling believers vs. not indwelling non-believers...

[Eileen]

The next step is to define what we mean by the Holy Spirit indwelling believers vs. not indwelling non-believers...

Well this seemed like a good place to start:

1 Cor 2:11-16
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of a man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12, Now we have received , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned, 15, But he this is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16, For who hat known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Awesome truth, wouldn't you agree? So....the only way we can grow in the Grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ is because we have the Spirit teaching us, right? So the Spirit is our teacher, that we can know for sure.

Now as to the unbeliever, he can't spiritually discern anything because he doesn't have the Spirit. I'm sure we all have that experience in our lives as we talk to unbelievers and they have not a clue what we are talking about.....light vs dark! I'm not sure yet on the article how to think about the Spirit being a part of the unbeliever, you? Except that the Spirit is everywhere metaphysically, that is in essence.

I'll be looking for some more scripture!

[Mickey]

I did a word search of 'dwell' and got 152 used of the word. It seems that most of the time the word 'dwell' is used to describe God's relationship to man it descripbes God dwelling 'with and among His people.'

But there are a few times where God or His Spirit are said to be in the believer...

Ezekiel 36:26-28 - 26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

2 Cor 16:6 - 16Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
"I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE."

Now I'm not aware of any scripture that states that the Holy Spirit is present in or has any relationship to the non-elect. Perhaps someone more learned on this will join this thread to help us out (hint, hint). ;)

So here we have the scripture stating that God or His Spirit will be 'in' His children. So now we can ask the question, what does it mean to 'dwell in the believer?'

This is where the big words come in and where I need some help.

[Brandan Kraft]

I'm going to invite Dr. Bacon to join this discussion - he should be able to give us more insight. :D

[Mickey]

Posted by Eileen
Awesome truth, wouldn't you agree? So....the only way we can grow in the Grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ is because we have the Spirit teaching us, right? So the Spirit is our teacher, that we can know for sure.

Amen sis.

The Spirit also comforts us:

2 cor 1:3-5 - 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

I'm not sure what to think about this next scripture. It might be a subject for another thread, but it seems like it is speaking in reference to the 'effectual calling' of the elect. If so then the Holy Spirit Convicts us too. I have always believed the Holy Spirit convicts us but I'm not sure that He convicts non-elect. So I don't think this scripture can be used to show a type of 'relationship' with non-elect.

John 16:5-11 - 5But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Oh I gotta go--be back soon.



Mike

[Eileen]

Jesus called the Spirit the comforter.......

The scripture you posted from John gives us an large idea of what the Holy Spirit does.

So as the Comforter He has many different aspects to His 'role'...I understand that He convicts 'us' of sin, do you think the un-believer is convicted of sin as well? Romans 2:14-15...."for when the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law are a law unto themselve, 15,Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"

This was one scripture used in Brandan's comparisons. When an unbeliever's conscience accuses them is that the work of the Holy Spirit as he is the one who convicts of sin? I never thought of it that way, because I too never thought the Spirit worked in any way in an unbeliever....What think all of you?

Also I wonder how the conviction of judgment and righteousness enter in the John scriptures....Does the world in this sense mean the whole world will know of righteousness and judgment or again, 'we' will know of Christ's righteousness through the Spirit and know the judgment of the prince of this world through the Spirit also. That would all fall under His guiding us into all truth!!!

So when Christ is glorified, the Spirit is at work, amen?

[Ivor Thomas]

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world CANNOT RECIEVE,Because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John ch14v 17; He does not indwell unbielievers.Here's a quote.God is present in all places; we should not think of him, however, as filling spaces, for he has no physical dimensions. It is as pure spirit that he pervades all things,in a relationship of immanence that is more than we body-bound creatures can understand. One thing that is clear, however is that he is present everywhere in the fullness of all that he is and all the powers that he has. J I Packer end quote. Ivor Thomas..

[Mickey]

Ok I'm back.

Posted by Eileen
I understand that He convicts 'us' of sin, do you think the un-believer is convicted of sin as well?

con·vict Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (khttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn-vhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifkthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif)
v. con·vict·ed, con·vict·ing, con·victs
v. tr.
Law. To find or prove (someone) guilty of an offense or crime, especially by the verdict of a court: The jury convicted the defendant of manslaughter.
To show or declare to be blameworthy; condemn: His remarks convicted him of a lack of sensitivity.
To make aware of one's sinfulness or guilt.

Certainly non-elect are proven to be guilty; all they have to do is read the scriptures or hear someone tell them they are for them to be made aware of that. But whether or not they are cut to the heart (Acts 2:36-38) and they are humbled by that revelation is the key.

See this can get somewhat difficult here. From the Supralapsarian standpoint, God causes all emotion and response, so it would flow that it is indeed the Holy Spirit who makes the non-elect aware of thier sin and Christ's righteousness, but thier response is where the Holy Spirit's relationship to them is different. He causes us (the elect) to greive, repent and believe (Ez 36:26-28) and He hardens the non-elect and causes them to rebel. So that being said I don't know that I would say that the Holy Spirit 'convicts' the non-elect, rather that He reveals to them their sinfulness and then hardens their hearts. So John 16:5-11 would not be speaking of convicting non-elect but only elect. I could be wrong here but, I say this because I associate conviction with grief over our sin.

[Eileen]

Ivor:

I would agree with your post, just didn't say it as well as you did. It is the same as we teach our children....God is everywhere, the same with the Spirit. I can't say that I comprehend that totally in relation to the un-believer (because I'm looking at it from my view, not God's, I know the Spirit is here because I have the Spirit) but then again I doubt that anyone can:rolleyes: Thanks!

Mike: Your conclusions were good regarding the conviction of sin in unbeliever's. I understand what you are saying in that it is the believer that is given true conviction which leads to repentance by the Spirit, although the un-believer can know of his sin.

II Cor 6:10 "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death"

Heb 12:17 "For ye know how that afterward, when he (Esau) would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, thought he sought it carefully with tears.

In reading last night I looked up the scripture in Romans 8: 26, 27 which talks about the Spirit helping our infirmites for we know not what we should pray.....making intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

I wonder if this is speaking of the Spirit's communication with the Father regarding what is on our hearts or what exactly this means. Maybe because we don't know always what the will of God is for us in any given circumstance the Spirit makes intercession for us asking for what we will need. Any thoghts there?

Anyway, thanks for the dialoug. Captivating subject, the Holy Spirit.

Awhile back Wildboar had a link to an article about the trinity...it doesn't speak to the Spirit's working in us, but is nevertheless a very good read on the relationships between the three. Here is the link if anyone is again interested in reading it.

http://www.prca.org/prtj/apr2000.html

[lionovjudah]

Helloooooooo Joe!

I'm not sure where the confusion lies. I'm simply interested in this thread and trying to have some dialoug about this issue, therefore I made some contibution as to what I found out about the meanings of the words. I don't think anyone is trying to put a puzzle together, I think it is a new study area for me and sounded like for Mike too, how about you?

Do you have different meanings for the two words, if so what are they?

Maybe you don't care what the words mean or how we are to apply them in our thinking of the work of the Holy Spirit, that's ok too. I do like to understand what specific words mean. I read those two words in Brandan's paper and didn't have a clue as to what they were talking about because I had never heard those words......

What is your understanding of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in NT saints lives and how is that worked out? (this is where I linked part of it in my own mind to 'growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus, as part of the work of the Holy Spirit in my heart/mind)

Do you think it was exactly the same for the OT saints as the NT saints as pentecost had not happened yet? (I think it was somehow different than it is today, but I don't know how)

A few questions, not from Brandan or Mike though, sorry!

Again I will say that the work of the Spirit has been present from eternity to eternity. There are examples in the OT of the Spirit providing the same benefits as those after Pentecost.

1) O.T. believers experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit to fight evil and declaring righteousness. Micah 3:8 says, "As for me, I am filled with power, with the Spirit of the Lord, and with justice and might, to declare to Jacob his transgression and to Israel his sin."

2) O.T. believers experienced regeneration and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When Nicodemus was questioningJesus about new birth by the Spirit Jesus responded (John 3:10), "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?" So this was not a new teaching.

3) the O.T. believers knew God's Spirit is the Creator and Sustainer of their natural life. In Job 33:4 Elihu says, "The Spirit of God has made me and the breath of the Almighty gives me life."

4) O.T. believers regarded the Holy Spirit as their Counselor or Teacher. In Nehemiah 9, Ezra says "Thou gavest thy good Spirit to instruct them and didst not withhold thy manna from their mouth."

5) some O.T. believers were enabled by the Spirit to do extraordinary feats of power to help God's people. Look at Sampson, "The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him and he tore the lion asunder as one tears a kid" (Judges 14:6). "The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him and the ropes which were on his arms became as flax" (15:14).

6) the Holy Spirit gave some in the O.T. a gift of prophecy.



I believe Scripture attests to the fact that the Spirit exercised the same powers as after Pentecost, but was limited to specific people for specific reasons. Also, to make all the benefits that the Spirit brings to NT believers, and make it retroactive into the OT believers makes a virtual reality of the work of Christ in atonement and redemption.

The believers in the OT looked forward to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, but they did not "receive the promises" (Heb. 11:13). They responded to the graciousness of the Living God in trusting faith, and "lived" in that old covenant relationship with God, but they did not "pass from death to life" (I John 3:14) spiritually in regeneration whereby the presence and activity of the life of Jesus Christ became their life (Col. 3:4) It is the unique privilege of Christians within the new covenant to participate in a spiritual union with the life of Jesus Christ, and to be "saved by His life" (Rom. 5:10) The Old Testament believers did indeed have a form of faith that believed and trusted in God, but it was not a complete NT regenerated faith, for they "died in faith, without receiving the promises" (Heb. 11:13, 39). The whole argument of the "faith chapter" in Hebrews 11 is that in the new covenant we participate in a "better faith" than that exercised in the Old Testament era. We, the NT believers have received the complete promises. We have been able to cross the jordan into the land of Milk and Honey. The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of life is given to us in far greater meausre than in the OT believers.

The following quote by John Nevin is excellent in describing the work of the Spirit in the OT...

"...if the order of grace is supposed to continue the same...if Christ manifested himself previously to the patriarchs and prophets as he now manifests himself to his church...if the Spirit of Christ indwelt the people of the Old Testament the same as Christians.... ...if so, let the church know that she is no nearer to God now ...than she was under the Old Testament; that the indwelling of Christ in believers, is only parallel with the divine presence as enjoyed by the Jewish saints, who all 'died in faith, not having received the promises;' that the mystical union in the case of Paul or John was nothing more intimate and vital and real than the relation sustained to God by Abraham, or David, or Isaiah. The religion of the Old Testament ...foreshadowed the great fact of the incarnation. In the religion of the Old Testament, God descends toward man, and holds out to his view...the promise of a real union of the Divine Nature with the human, as the end of the gracious economy thus introduced. The meaning of the entire (Old Testament) system lay in its reference to Christianity. We may say of the Old Testament as a whole, what is said of its last and greatest representative in particular. It was the voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God! Many see in Christianity an advance only on the grace of the Jewish dispensation, under the same form, and not a new order of grace entirely. Greater light, enlarged opportunities, more constraining motives, a new supply of supernatural aids and provisions; these are taken to be the peculiar distinction of the New Covenant, and constitute its supposed superiority over the Old. But is not this to resolve the Christian salvation as before, into a merely moral institute or discipline?...an outward apparatus....(which) turns the work of redemption into a mere doctrine or example. We should have at most, in this view, an exaltation only of the religion of the Jew. Christ would be to us of the same order with Moses; immeasurably greater of course; but still a prophet only in the same sense.
In opposition to all this, we say of Christianity that it is a LIFE. Not a rule or mode of life simply; not something that in its own nature requires to be reduced to practice; for that is the character of all morality. But life in its very nature and constitution...the actual substance of truth itself. John 1:17 - "The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

We read of the Spirit of God, as present and active in the world, under a certain form, before the incarnation of Christ. But we must not confound this agency with the relation, in which He has come to stand to the church since, in consequence of the union thus established between the Divine nature and our own."



Grace and Peace


Joe

Oh I forgot to say HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EILEEEEEEEEEEENNNN!!!

[lionovjudah]

As far as the Holy Spirits relationship to the unbeliever, I believe we have to break this down into the "unawakened elect sinner" vs the reprobate. Since we are all dead in our sins prior to the work of regeneration the unawakened elect will be treated differently than the reprobate. We also have to be careful not to seperate the Holy Spirit from Christ. In fact, Paul uses the phrase "Spirit of Christ" interchangably(sp). The "First and foremost work" of the Holy Spirit is to bear witness to Christ, To point all believers towards the Savior. Testify to Christ. These verses describe this;

Col. 1:27 - "...this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."
2 Cor. 13:5 - "do you not recognizethat Jesus Christ is in you?"
Gal. 2:20 - "it is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me..

This is THE PROMISE given to those in the OT that was never experienced or realized by them. But with NT believers, this is the result.

In Contrast to believers, scripture attests the fact that the Holy Spirit has no relationship with the reprobate. SInce we are all born in sin and deserve Gods wrath, what work has to actively be done to the reprobate? He cant be made more of a sinner, or more reprobate. The Holy Spirit does not pass the reprobate from death unto life. So He does not indwell the reprobate. There is an influence of providence and restraining, but absolutle no indwelling, no Christ in them at all. So we must never seperate the indwelling of the Spirit with the indwelling of Christ.

2 Cor again shows this clearly:
5Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith. Test your own selves. Know ye not yourselves how Jesus Christ is in you, unless ye be reprobates? 6But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. 7Now I pray to God that ye do no evil, not that we should appear to be approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

This is also why The Work of the Holy Spirit is ALOT more than epistological. It gives us Christ to live in us, not just knowledge, but we "become temples" IT is tremendously more an ontological work than epistological. We Must make the distinction that the work of the Holy Spirit is not merley raising us up, ascending to some doctrinal truths, it is making His elect a new creation in Christ Jesus. Pointing us to Him alone as truth. Jesus did not say, "I came that you might have orthodox beliefs and defend them at all costs with a sword and contempt." He said, "I came that you might have life (ME in you) and have such more abundantly"


Grace and Peace

Joe

[Robert R. Higby]

The metaphysical view has to do with the notion that the presence and work of the Holy Spirit is mysterious; i.e., he is genuinely present only in the immaterial souls of regenerate creatures--not in the material universe at all.

I propose, as an 'amen' to those who have gone before, that we should reject wholeheartely the notion of 'metaphysical only' indwelling. It denies the omnipresence of God. God (all 3 persons) is present in all things spiritual AND material, otherwise he is not God. Years ago I heard an illustration of the metaphysical view. The teacher mocked the notion of omnipresence by this challenging question: when you slipped off your shoes last night, did God step in? I find such an inquiry 'dumb' beyond reason. God obviously did not 'step in'--because he is already present in all material things--open space as well as space occupied by atomic matter.

The issue is HOW and WHY God is present--the nature and purpose of His presence in persons and created things does indeed vary. He is present in both grace AND wrath!

The primary presence of the Holy Spirit in believers is epistemological. He is sent to convict and lead them into all truth. This is not to deny other purposes of his presence. However, those who perceive of his presence mainly in terms of abstract power and miracles have totally missed the real message of the New Testament.

[Brandan Kraft]

Acts 17:28, (KJV), For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

[lionovjudah]

The primary presence of the Holy Spirit in believers is epistemological. He is sent to convict and lead them into all truth. This is not to deny other purposes of his presence. However, those who perceive of his presence mainly in terms of abstract power and miracles have totally missed the real message of the New Testament.

Bill:

If you are equating epotological work of the Holy Spirit with pointing us towards Christ, who is THE TRUTH, I will agree. If you are equating the episological work of the Spirit as being merely an assent to beliefs, I would have to humbly disagree. Christianity as a whole is much much more than an epistological, meaning, what do we "stand upon" revelation. Perhaps I should clarify how I am defining Epistemology. (1) epi meaning "upon" or "on." (2) histemi meaning "to stand." (3) logos meaning "word," The Greek word epistamai referred to the process of acquiring knowledge and understanding, . Epistemology is what we stand upon for our understanding. Metaphysical understanding and intellectual understanding are not God's main purpose for believers. God wants His attribute of love to be expressed and created in us by the Spirit of Christ. Paul's prayer to the Ephesians is that they might "know (gnonai) the love of God which surpasses knowledge (gnoseos)" (Eph. 3:19).

Jesus said to the Pharisees , "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life" (John 5:39,40).

Jesus considered an epistelogical approach totally lacking. He was making His own divine being, His own life, available for the restoration and redemption of His sheep. The objective of the Holy Spirit is not to only give people information, but rather to receive the very Being of God into themselves (John 1:12) and allow Jesus Christ to be their life (Col. 3:4).

Ok My Pata Fagglioli is done, I must retreat to the Kitchen and eat like there is no tomorrow. More later when I have a full belly.


Grace and Peace

Joe

[Robert R. Higby]

Joe:

Let me respond systematically to your various points:

If you are equating epotological work of the Holy Spirit with pointing us towards Christ, who is THE TRUTH, I will agree.

That is what I am standing for!

If you are equating the episological work of the Spirit as being merely an assent to beliefs, I would have to humbly disagree. Christianity as a whole is much much more than an epistological, meaning, what do we "stand upon" revelation. Perhaps I should clarify how I am defining Epistemology. (1) epi meaning "upon" or "on." (2) histemi meaning "to stand." (3) logos meaning "word," The Greek word epistamai referred to the process of acquiring knowledge and understanding, . Epistemology is what we stand upon for our understanding.

The NT use of Greek words is 'sanctified' or 'set apart' from purely familiar meanings. So I believe the pregnant meaning of these things in NT revelation goes far beyond the common notions of that place and time. All in evanjellyfish churchianity who criticize those who want to stand for truth in our day mock the 'truth-seekers' with the label 'intellectually arrogant'. They call us those who MERELY ASSENT TO BELIEFS.

True faith is not a mere assent but an assent with an AMEN! That is the difference! When the cup of a soul is running over with joy in the gospel, passionately wanting the person and work of Christ (as intellectually understood with correct propositions) as his/her OWN salvation and believing it to be so (even with the smallest level of understanding and trust), then genuine faith has been experienced.

Metaphysical understanding and intellectual understanding are not God's main purpose for believers.

The point of this thread is to emphasize metaphysical VS. epistemological. They are opposites in this context. I'm not sure what your point is here. I would only exhort believers everywhere (without pointing the finger at Joe) not to mock those interested in the truth as INTELLECTUALLY ARROGANT like the evanjellyfish preachers do! If you engage in that apostasy, God will be your enemy as sure and certain as he rules over the universe!

God wants His attribute of love to be expressed and created in us by the Spirit of Christ. Paul's prayer to the Ephesians is that they might "know (gnonai) the love of God which surpasses knowledge (gnoseos)" (Eph. 3:19).

Both terms are GNOSIS, that is my point! The former is the true knowledge which surpasses the common and worthless knowledge of men. But we cannot separate love from doctrine. Christ comes to us clothed ever and only in a knowledge of the true gospel which communicates a real understanding of his person and work. Without that, we do not know him at all.

There is no salvation without an understanding of salvation's plan revealed in scripture.