Racist Salvation

[lionovjudah]

I do not know if this is the correct place for this thread, so if it needs to be moved to another area, please do.

What are the racial, and ethnical implications of Gods elect in the world? Please correct me if I am wrong, but after a "little" and i have to say little research on this topic, I have concluded that the vast majority of Sovereign grace believers would look like a refrigerator of Milk. The only difference would be whole, 2% ., 1%, and skim. For those who do not see my analogy, I will make it clear. The great percentage those who confess this belief as being the "true Gospel" are WHITE. Are we to conclude the God is a segregationalist? The minority population makes up about 1% of those in the "reformed" tradition. For the record, I am not believeing this to be true, in fact, it troubles me to think this could be Gods intention.


Joe

[wildboar]

I'm not certain the percentages are correct or how they would be determined. I know I've heard from some that those who live in Africa have an easier time accepting a sovereign God than those in America. The Pentecostal movement is certainly big over here (although at least in Kenya it seems to be more Biblical than it is here) but there is also a significant number of reformed believers over there. There are also significant numbers in India and Singapore. I'm not sure anyone knows how many reformed believers are living in China. There are churches that bear the name reformed but it is practically dead in a number of predominantly white countries. Many have gone the way of the social gospel or some other direction. There are many white folks who go to some type of reformed or presbyterian church because they grew up in one. Just putting "reformed" in your denominational name doesn't make you such anymore than adding exe to a file extension makes it an executable file (something my mother had to learn).:D

[wildboar]

Rev. Laning wrote an article on the catholicity of the church and touched on the subject of racism.




The Salvation of the Human Race

When the church is gathered out of the nations, the result is that all the nations are saved. When the church is gathered out of the whole human race, this means that the whole human race is saved. This is due to the organic nature of the nations and of the human race. The elect in each nation are the living core of each nation. When these elect are saved, that nation is saved. The elect in the human race are the new human race under Jesus Christ, the Head. When the elect are saved, it is very really the case that the human race is saved.

This is the meaning of all the passages that speak of all nations coming to Jesus Christ and being blessed in Him. Psalm 86:9 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Psalm+86:9) is an example of such a passage, which contains the promise that “All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.” Passages such as this one (and there are many such passages) are not saying that there will come a future day when the majority of those in each nation will willingly serve Christ. Rather, these passages are teaching that if at the end of this age one were to look back over the entire history of this world, and consider the history of any particular nation, there will have been at least some period of time in which elect believers were being gathered out of that nation, and that those elect individuals together actually constitute the nation. In other words, a nation comes to Christ when the elect in that nation come to Christ.

This is also the explanation for the passages in Scripture that speak of Christ saving the world. John the Baptist pointed to Christ and said, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=John+1:29)). Now when Scripture says that Christ saves the world, it means that He saves not only human beings, but also the entire creation. But right now we are considering only what this means with regard to the saving of human beings. When God says that Christ saves the world, this means that He saves the entire human race. It is true that Christ died only for His elect sheep (John 10:15 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=John+10:15)), but when He saves His sheep He saves the world. This is because the elect individuals very really constitute the new human race with Christ as the Head.

The saving of the human race is illustrated in what happened at the flood in the days of Noah. Through the judgment of the flood the human race was saved, even though the majority of the people on the earth perished in the waters. When God saved Noah and his family, He saved the human race.

No Racism in the Catholic Church

One who truly believes the catholicity of the church firmly rejects all racism. He speaks against it when he sees it, and he despises it when he sees it within himself. There is no earthly blood line that is more holy than another. By nature we are all depraved, are dead in sin, and can do nothing but sin. It is only and entirely by God’s grace that we have been saved. This work of grace unites us with our brothers and sisters from the different nations of the world in a unity that transcends differences in nationality and race. All believers are citizens of a new nation, and members of the new human race. In this body there is absolutely no place for racism of any kind.

There are many who have tried to defend their racist thoughts and statements by referring to Scripture. Reference has often been made to the cursing of Canaan, where God through Noah said that Canaan would be “a servant of servants.” Since the Africans are often said to be descendants of Ham, Canaan’s father, some have used this passage to defend being racist against the Africans. But this curse is not saying that all the descendants of Ham or all the descendants of Canaan, head for head, were cursed to everlasting destruction. That Shem and Japheth were blessed did not mean that every one of their blood descendants were blessed. Nor did the fact that Canaan was cursed mean that every blood descendant of Canaan was cursed. Uriah, whom David killed, was a Hittite, a descendant of Canaan, and he showed himself to be a godly man, who served as one of David’s mighty men.

God means what He says when He declares that He will save all nations. There are elect people of God, our brothers and sisters in Christ, in all the different nations of the world. We show we believe this when we are zealous, very zealous, in the work of missions. We show we believe this by calling out to God to raise up more men to preach the gospel, not only in our own instituted churches where we have vacancies, but also on the mission field.

This is the commission that our Lord and Savior has given to us. Out of a love for God and for the catholic church of Christ, we must willingly and cheerfully support this work, so that the eyes of our brothers and sisters may be enlightened by the gospel of grace, and so that we might manifest on this earth, as much as possible, the unity, the holiness, and the catholicity of the church of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[lionovjudah]

I'm not certain the percentages are correct or how they would be determined. I know I've heard from some that those who live in Africa have an easier time accepting a sovereign God than those in America. The Pentecostal movement is certainly big over here (although at least in Kenya it seems to be more Biblical than it is here) but there is also a significant number of reformed believers over there. There are also significant numbers in India and Singapore. I'm not sure anyone knows how many reformed believers are living in China. There are churches that bear the name reformed but it is practically dead in a number of predominantly white countries. Many have gone the way of the social gospel or some other direction. There are many white folks who go to some type of reformed or presbyterian church because they grew up in one. Just putting "reformed" in your denominational name doesn't make you such anymore than adding exe to a file extension makes it an executable file (something my mother had to learn).:D

Chuck: My observations we based on denominational reports. Perhaps I am more speaking about the United States. I used reformed in quotes as a general word. I know that those who confess in the Doctrines of Sovereign grace are mostly white. Researching heavily black areas in the country, one can reasonably conclude that there are few if any. Just out of curiosity, how many minority members does your denomination have? 3?:D . How many PRC churches are located in areas where minority population is greatest?


Joe

[wildboar]

Just out of curiosity, how many minority members does your denomination have? 3?:D . How many PRC churches are located in areas where minority population is greatest?

I'm really not sure what the figures are, we don't ask them to check a box in regards to their race when they join the church...lol Certainly the vile Dutch race is in the majority. We have one family at our church straight from Sudan, they've got quite a story to tell and they're as black as you'll find anywhere. They're wonderful. There's a black lady who comes to one of the Bible studies my wife goes to and she's come to our church a few times. There's a lady at our church from India, another from the Philipines.

The original location of First PRC, Grand Rapids eventually became a place where the minority population was the greatest. Due to various problems that they had there with vandalism and theft and I heard something about a guy in a cape that came in during the middle of one of the services they changed location. Women did not feel safe going to Bible study after dark.

I certainly do think there is more that can and should be done to reach out to some of the minority groups. I also know however that there are a number of black baptist churches out there that do not use the name reformed but teach many of the same things.

[wildboar]

What denominational reports are you referring to? I would find them interesting? I know there used to be one reformed minister in the RCA several years ago, but in 1993 Rev. Breen joined the PRCA. So you don't have to worry. The past actually reformed white/black ratio in the RCA has been changed from 1/0 to 0/0.:p

[lionovjudah]

I'm really not sure what the figures are, we don't ask them to check a box in regards to their race when they join the church...lol Certainly the vile Dutch race is in the majority. We have one family at our church straight from Sudan, they've got quite a story to tell and they're as black as you'll find anywhere. They're wonderful. There's a black lady who comes to one of the Bible studies my wife goes to and she's come to our church a few times. There's a lady at our church from India, another from the Philipines.

The original location of First PRC, Grand Rapids eventually became a place where the minority population was the greatest. Due to various problems that they had there with vandalism and theft and I heard something about a guy in a cape that came in during the middle of one of the services they changed location. Women did not feel safe going to Bible study after dark.

I certainly do think there is more that can and should be done to reach out to some of the minority groups. I also know however that there are a number of black baptist churches out there that do not use the name reformed but teach many of the same things.

A person in a cape? What goes on in Michigan? Can you lead me to some Church History books that would address this topic of Ethnicity? I mean we here of Phillip and the ethopian. Paul mentions his travels, But when did The reformed churches, specifically Sovereign Grace believers become mostly White? Have doctrinal confessions segregated intentionally or unintentionally? Either way this has been the result. Could it be cultural understanding of the presentation of the Gospel? The reformed Sovereign grace believer take a much more strict intelectual approach to the understanding of Scripture. And The minority culture of Blacks and Hispanics are definately more laid back. I remember worshipping in a black Baptist church in virgina. Service started at 10;00 and when I arrived with my family and the people that invited us, there were only about 10 people there. They said,"Well we start when people arrive".. I was amazed. Could you imagine that happening in the midwest? If youre not there at 10;00 the doors lock.

I wonder if Milt can offer some insight on this matter.




What denominational reports are you referring to? I would find them interesting? I know there used to be one reformed minister in the RCA several years ago, but in 1993 Rev. Breen joined the PRCA. So you don't have to worry. The past actually reformed white/black ratio in the RCA has been changed from 1/0 to 0/0.:p
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I have researched Synod reports and Specific denominational reports online for Christian churches. I know the asian membership has increased, but again, they are intellectually motivated also. Have we segregated the Gospel of Christ to those churches that are big glasses of homoginized milk?


Joe

[wildboar]

My parents actually went to an all white SBC church for awhile and it was as laid back as the black church you are talking about. People would be coming and going during the service and the blind keyboard player would just start playing music for no apparent reason while the preacher was preaching and would add his own commentary.

Anyhow, I think at least part of the problem is the current marketing approach the churchworld takes to the planting of churches. While I was in the PCA Bryan Chappel came and spoke at our church explaining how and why things must be done differently in black churches, in churches with large numbers of businessmen, etc. While certainly different types of people do need to be ministered to differently at times I believe that the current approach leaves a division in the body of Christ where marketing does not expect people to all worship together. The other problem is not enough evangelistic zeal to work with the people to begin with.

There a group called The Black Alliance For Reformed Theology which has put out a book through P&R called "On Being Black and Reformed." It can be found here: http://www.homestead.com/blackalliance/bart.html

[ray kikkert]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I have researched Synod reports and Specific denominational reports online for Christian churches. I know the asian membership has increased, but again, they are intellectually motivated also. Have we segregated the Gospel of Christ to those churches that are big glasses of homoginized milk?


Joe[/QUOTE]
I do not think so. God is no respector of persons, and I believe that the Gospel of Christ is not bound to those of the white pigment. It is my hope that the churches preach the gospel of Christ round the globe. Remember that story of Moses and his wife? Seems to me there was some strive here with Miriam. Also I think Jethro was the father , a good advice giver.

greetings and salutations, el rana

[lionovjudah]

I do not think so. God is no respector of persons, and I believe that the Gospel of Christ is not bound to those of the white pigment. It is my hope that the churches preach the gospel of Christ round the globe. Remember that story of Moses and his wife? Seems to me there was some strive here with Miriam. Also I think Jethro was the father , a good advice giver.


Ray I agree. I know God is no respector of persons, but we are. And we inadvertantly, i hope, transfer that segregation to God. If the true Gospel is defined as Sovereign Grace, Reformed, Absolute determinism, etc etc, then that would leave out the minorities since my small amount of research has concluded that the vast majority of those who confess this are white.


Joe

[Skeuos Eleos]

Joe,

I think you are perhaps seeing things somewhat through 'American' glasses so to speak. In areas of the UK where there is some non-white caucasian population you will certainly find peoples of other ethnic origins in reformed churches.

In London in particular there are a number of large and thriving Korean speaking reformed churches. (They are part of the International Presbyterian Church. To which the church that I attend belongs. It was started by Francis Schaefer I think).

I attended the Metropolitan Tabernacle (Spurgeon's old church) a couple of times when I was working in London a couple of years ago and there were a large number of African students there. Also there are a number of reformed missionary organisations working in Africa, Asia and South America.

I don't have access to stats for the UK but perhaps the numbers might not be representative and you could be right. One thing I have noticed is that reformed churches do to tend to attract the more 'intellectual' and 'conservative' types of people (unlike me! Ha!). The Charismatics seem to attract what we call the working classes (I think you call 'em blue collar workers?) more and, of course, quite often mock anything they deem to be intectualism. On the other hand, I did read a historical piece a couple of years ago that was talking about c. 18th - 19th century Britain that said that the reformed churches had more success with the 'working classes' which I found quite intriguing. I wish I could remember where I read it.

Martin

[lozells]

It could not possibly be correct that salvation belongs to white people; it is only our language used to convey the love and universality of the Gospel. It's not lyrical enough and esp. from Greek translation. There isn't enough emphasis on getting out in twos, threes etc. to do work for our Lord, persuading people, praying together - this and not searching for divisive corners in our translations is what matters. In fact now things have turned quite around, and a white inner city dweller like myself is learning and has learnt so much practical gospel from incomers from around the globe.

[lionovjudah]

It could not possibly be correct that salvation belongs to white people; it is only our language used to convey the love and universality of the Gospel. It's not lyrical enough and esp. from Greek translation. There isn't enough emphasis on getting out in twos, threes etc. to do work for our Lord, persuading people, praying together - this and not searching for divisive corners in our translations is what matters. In fact now things have turned quite around, and a white inner city dweller like myself is learning and has learnt so much practical gospel from incomers from around the globe.

Hello Lozey:

Welcome to the forum. To clarify, so this forum does not get tagged as a white supremecist forum, I was posing a question and not a conclusion. If you read the posts you will clearly see what my intentions were.


Joe