Should We Pursue Debate with Church Leaders?

[Robert R. Higby]

Some of our recent discussions have caused me to doubt whether it is wise to pursue any type of theological debate with the ordained church leaders of our time. If a pastor discovers us and genuinely wants to dialog, praise God! Outside of that, however, doesn't it do more harm than good to expose too much of ourselves to historic churchmen? Based on past experience, I truly believe that none of them will ever respect a truth-seeker using an approach of coveting their opinions. In fact, the opposite of the desired end generally materializes. Any thoughts regarding this?

[ashamoun]

Bill, I have a call in to my Pastor right now because of his message last weekend. I thought it was horrible. I won't use that adjective with him of course, but I will make my thoughts known. I think it's the responsibility of all in the church to keep their Pastors on the Word.

As I posted last week, i am having problems in my church now with the ordination of woman, and I am planning on meeting with the senior pastor about it. Pending the outcome of that meeting, I may very well be forced to leave the church. I think it's our responsibility as members of a church and as brothers in the Lord with the Pastor to discuss problems, doctrinal or otherwise.

[GraceAmbassador]

Some of our recent discussions have caused me to doubt whether it is wise to pursue any type of theological debate with the ordained church leaders of our time. If a pastor discovers us and genuinely wants to dialog, praise God! Outside of that, however, doesn't it do more harm than good to expose too much of ourselves to historic churchmen? Based on past experience, I truly believe that none of them will ever respect a truth-seeker using an approach of coveting their opinions. In fact, the opposite of the desired end generally materializes. Any thoughts regarding this?Dear Bob:

You are right again! The first Bible proof that debate sometimes makes "error" overpower what's right was when Adam debated the serpent in the Garden. That did not turn out very well, did it?

Evan as I keep in mind that I am no better than anyone and that I depent solely on the Grace of God, I find that debating with some churchmen of our days is often cumbersome, causes more harm than good and in general, affords an opportunity for error to propagate.

Paul, as describing a tumultuous situation to Timothy commands the young preacher: Preach the word: in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort all with all longsuffering. Paul, if an egotistical man of our days, could very well have said: "Timothy, debate until they capitulate". God forbid!

The success of a true preacher and teacher of the Word who has his life to sustain his teaching, if compared to a good debator, can be found in the lives of Paul and Apolo. We know of Apolo because Paul mentions him! Apolo has a fleeting mention in the Bible, but Paul is the giant we know he is today! That says something!

In view of the recent writings of a Web teacher about some of us, I really face the dilemma of responsing in "kind" or in "kindness". The Holy Spirit then convicted me and convinced me that this is nothing to compare with the persecution the disciples had in the past. Nothing compared to what Jesus suffered and also is nothing to comapare to that which I HAVE caused people to suffer in my own life with my own criticism. I am sure that teacher has conflicts of his own and I should not add to it and receive graciously as an act of God's Will when he, that preacher, adds to mine. If I believe God ordains all things, I must include and conclude that He also ordains people to keep me in check so I would not boast, even when they are unfair to me!

God called us to PREACH AND TEACH and not to debate!

My wife tells me, in view of my passion to debate: "Milton, don't waste your time, certain things can only be known by revelation. They're reading the same book as you are but cannot see what you see. God has to reveal it to them if that is His purpose. There must be a time when you have to say enough and move on. To prolong the debate will only cause more animosity." I think about the wisdom of these words since Jesus said that "no one would know Him if the Father would not: reveal Him to them and also bring them to Him. In other passages, Jesus speaks of the Father giving Him those that would come to Him. Debate is good, but is NOT a synonym for revelation nor illumination.

I pray with humility about my own convictions. As I proclaim them I pray to God that He keeps me focused on Him and that He totally crushes my flesh and my desire to appear something I am not. I am not a doctor, I am not a wise man and am far from being a theologian. For the Grace of God, I am what I am.

Let's debate among ourselves, seeking to learn from each other, we that are Brother and Sisters. The others, as we proclaim them the truths as God reveals to us, let us understand that we are the "proclaimers but not the enforcers". I pray that in humility I proclaim these truths believing God to make them effective in people's lives without my religious impositions.

Let us study the Word primarily to learn, and secondarily to teach.

For that, I need to learn humility! Humility, however, is far disticnt from mediocrity. Humility must not be a reason from me to shy way from proclaiming truths. Mediocrity may force me to impose when I have no power to impose as I have no way change anyone's mind; Humility will prompt me to leave the results with God and never boast about them as my achievement. Mediocrity will make me criticize those who will not follow me as I proclaim truths. Humility is of God; mediocrity is of the devil!

In the end, my "debating" with certain churchmen of today only legitimizes their error in the minds of those who follow them; and as I said before, it often propagates the error faster than uphill fire and down hill water.

I pray that I will be as Paul: When facing his past life, the life of a murderer, as persecutor of Christ, he ponders in resignation and Praise to the Gracious and Sovereign Will of God when he declares: For the Grace of God, I am what I am! May God help me!

Forgive me if I rambled!

Milt

[wildboar]

ashamoun:

I agree that this is our responsibility and will keep you in my prayers. I believe it is the responsibility of a person to meet with the elders and discuss doctrinal error that is ocurring in the church and to bring God's Word to them. I did this while in the PCA. I can't say it did alot of good, but I believe it would have been wrong just to leave. Unfortunately in most instances the individualistic nature of our society coupled with the wide variety of different churches causes many to leave churches at the drop of a hat, a problem which is only compounded by the fact that churches do not take their own membership roles seriously and have people listed who haven't been there for years. The other problem found in more conservative reformed denominations is that a person will go off in some strange direction with their interpretation of Scripture and declare all those who disagree with them to be heretics and on the road to hell. They won't meet with the elders but they'll send out letters to everyone else in the church telling them to flee.

[Brandan Kraft]

I'm of the opinion that we should confront error head on in the situation we find ourselves in. It's not necessarily everyone's duty to search out people we have no association with on the internet and abroad and debate every false teacher or wayward "elder" we meet.

Should we respond to certain individuals when they level charges at us? I'm of the opinion that we should for our own benefit. But that each case is unique and we must be led by the Spirit in His providence.

[Robert R. Higby]

Ashamoun: I certainly believe that we should confront 'leaders' whom we know face-to-face with their errors! I agree with you; that issue is not the focus of my concern.

Milt: Your post encouraged my heart immensely as so much of your work does. I think that you nailed the issue totally.

My concern is the pursuit of dialog with high churchmen of notoriety who are already declared enemies of the gospel beliefs that we hold dear.

WB: I have stated in the past my conviction that the duty faith issue, more than all the others, is semantical--but not totally. My point has always been that I do not want to be intimidated into using the language of 'duty faith', an expression not found in scripture, to describe my belief that all persons are accountable to the gospel. All will be judged by the gospel in the end, however, to me the expression 'duty faith' rings of ABILITY to the common man--therefore I don't use it or profess it. :cool:

[ray kikkert]

Bill, I have a call in to my Pastor right now because of his message last weekend. I thought it was horrible. I won't use that adjective with him of course, but I will make my thoughts known. I think it's the responsibility of all in the church to keep their Pastors on the Word.

As I posted last week, i am having problems in my church now with the ordination of woman, and I am planning on meeting with the senior pastor about it. Pending the outcome of that meeting, I may very well be forced to leave the church. I think it's our responsibility as members of a church and as brothers in the Lord with the Pastor to discuss problems, doctrinal or otherwise.
With the doctrinal error of the ordination of woman you would be duty bound at least to explain why, if they are not akeen to it, this is unacceptable. Women in office is heterodoxy. If you require sound exegetical argument let me know. Maybe they have heard it all before.
My mother church, the CRC, have caved in to this. It has repercussions. If the fact that women ought not to assume authority in the office of the church is not bad enough consider also the message they send to the children regarding their fathers. How can one effectively preach on Ephesians 5 and yet advocate this postion to the congregation? It is beyond me. Then there are the sacraments baptism and the Lords supper administered by women. This is blantant hypocrisy and rivals the days of Isreal under the supervision of Deborah and Balak. Just as then when men do not fufill the responsibility God has given them to rule under Christ in the offices of the church, God convicts them by having the women do the work they are to be doing.

This has gone on for years now. The evidence of it's sting is evident in the churches that have been effected by it. People in their generations are being cut out of the church, children are leaving the church. The antithesis is replaced with conformity to the world and all her wicked acts.

At the very least they cannot rail on you for not being concerned for the church and rather just bothered to jump ship. Put the ball back in their court for them to deal with, after all they are responsible before God in how they ruled under Him.

greetings and salutations, el rana

[foundinHim]

" You emphasize Scripture too much . "

Sunday I had an encounter with the co-pastor of my church . Thankfully he doesn't preach much -- but does teach Sunday School for adults . I attend a fundamental -- yes , very much Arminian church ( Hey the pickins' are rather slim here ) . The senior pastor is Arminian but seeks to be as biblical as possible within his framework . ( He says he doesn't want to go beyond his home pastor's theology . I have heard hundreds of that pastor's stuff . Some of his sermons are quite good . Other times he circles the landing field and does not quite touch down ) .

Anyway , we have a monthly fellowship meal and K.J. sat beside me . ( I did not arrange it . Nor did I plan anything ) . He wanted to hash-out my calvinistic distortions apparently . I was quoting biblical texts . He only came up with John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:4,6 . I said that the word world had at least seven different meanings in Scripture . I brought up three to which he reluctanly agreed that indeed , they did not mean every single person , past , present and future . I said that Christ died only for his elect ones -- the sheep which he laid down His life for . It was for them only that He purposed to save . I mentioned that only the ones whose names are enrolled in the Lamb's book of life will inherit eternal life . He agreed with me on that last point . ( Still retaining his opinion of the potential for Christ to save many more . Flawed logic ? Yes . ) I said that at the Judgement the sheep and goats will be separated . To the goats He will solemnly declare : " I have never known you . "

He pressed the free will of people on me . To that I responded with passages in Ephesians and Col . about the unregenerate being " dead in their tresspasses and sin . " I went on to say that it is the nature of the unregenerate to desire things which God hates and vice-versa . We do indeed have wills but they are not free . Our minds are hostile and at enmity with God . There is no liberty in that state .

He said people have the ability to choose God . Further , that foreknowledge means God looks ahead to see who will decide for Him . That's election in his view . So K. J. sets everything on its head . The elect are the electors . The chosen are the choosers . God just keeps a tally of the ballots for Him . He finally said that I " emphasized Scripture too much . " That's a rather strange indictment . I told him he minimized the Bible's authority . I asked him to back-up his claims with Scripture and to that he told me that he was not prepared . " You study these things all the time . " ( No , I do not . ) I said that his views were not biblical , but philosophical . He replied that that was an offensive remark . I asked if he thought that I was distorting Scripture . He replied that he would never say that -- just think it . In addition he claimed that it was ungentlemanly of me to actually tell him these things . He maintained that I got all of this from John Calvin . Not so . When I came into a knowledge of these things it was because I wrote down all the relevant Scripture on the subjects . Calvin's Institutes are back in America only partially read . I only have his commetaries on Isaiah and 1 and 2 Thess. with me here . The Bible is my source .

I have to go now . I will add and edit D.V. in an hour or so .

[foundinHim]

[QUOTE=foundinHim]" You emphasize Scripture too much . "

Sunday I had an encounter with the co-pastor of my church . Thankfully he doesn't preach much -- but does teach Sunday School for adults . I attend a fundamental -- yes , very much Arminian church ( Hey the pickins' are rather slim here ) . The senior pastor is Arminian but seeks to be as biblical as possible within his framework . ( He says he doesn't want to go beyond his home pastor's theology . I have heard hundreds of that pastor's stuff . Some of his sermons are quite good . Other times he circles the landing field and does not quite touch down ) .

Anyway , we have a monthly fellowship meal and K.J. sat beside me . ( I did not arrange it . Nor did I plan anything ) . He wanted to hash-out my calvinistic distortions apparently . I was quoting biblical texts . He only came up with John 3:16 and 1 Timothy 2:4,6 . I said that the word world had at least seven different meanings in Scripture . I brought up three to which he reluctanly agreed that indeed , they did not mean every single person , past , present and future . I said that Christ died only for his elect ones -- the sheep which he laid down His life for . It was for them only that He purposed to save . I mentioned that only the ones whose names are enrolled in the Lamb's book of life will inherit eternal life . He agreed with me on that last point . ( Still retaining his opinion of the potential for Christ to save many more . Flawed logic ? Yes . ) I said that at the Judgement the sheep and goats will be separated . To the goats He will solemnly declare : " I have never known you . "

He pressed the free will of people on me . To that I responded with passages in Ephesians and Col . about the unregenerate being " dead in their tresspasses and sin . " I went on to say that it is the nature of the unregenerate to desire things which God hates and vice-versa . We do indeed have wills but they are not free . Our minds are hostile and at enmity with God . There is no liberty in that state .

He said people have the ability to choose God . Further , that foreknowledge means God looks ahead to see who will decide for Him . That's election in his view . So K. J. sets everything on its head . The elect are the electors . The chosen are the choosers . God just keeps a tally of the ballots for Him . He finally said that I " emphasized Scripture too much . " That's a rather strange indictment . I told him he minimized the Bible's authority . I asked him to back-up his claims with Scripture and to that he told me that he was not prepared . " You study these things all the time . " ( No , I do not . ) I said that his views were not biblical , but philosophical . He replied that that was an offensive remark . I asked if he thought that I was distorting Scripture . He replied that he would never say that -- just think it . In addition he claimed that it was ungentlemanly of me to actually tell him these things . He maintained that I got all of this from John Calvin . Not so . When I came into a knowledge of these things it was because I wrote down all the relevant Scripture on the subjects . Calvin's Institutes are back in America only partially read . I only have his commentaries on Isaiah and 1 and 2 Thess. with me here . The Bible is my source .

We have these " discussions " about once a year . Last year he lambasted the federal theology of Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 . The year before he was teaching in adult Sunday School that the Westminster Confession of faith was weak on the authority of Scripture . He said it was just as bad as the Council of Trent ! I set him straight afterwards with a copy of the W.C.of F.'s treatment of the authority of Scripture . But he insisted that the New Hampshire Confession was the best . ( It is a lot shorter ) .

K. J. is an Arminian/Pelagian . His dad is also . His father wrote a Manual of Theology which is out-in-out finneyesque . Junior teaches stuff from his father's Manual in the " seminary " . A sample : " If there is no ability , there is no obligation . "

Why do I remain there ? K. J. doesn't preach much . The senior pastor is better . And I can not find a better English-speaking service . I have tried . Many of those services are so awful you would not believe it .

I know there must be some coulda' , woulda' , shoulda' comments regarding my interaction . But believe me . It went only for about 15 minutes before he took off .

[CarolK]

Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Corinthians 6:13-18

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8-9

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Ephesians 5:5-11

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Some of our recent discussions have caused me to doubt whether it is wise to pursue any type of theological debate with the ordained church leaders of our time. If a pastor discovers us and genuinely wants to dialog, praise God! Outside of that, however, doesn't it do more harm than good to expose too much of ourselves to historic churchmen? Based on past experience, I truly believe that none of them will ever respect a truth-seeker using an approach of coveting their opinions. In fact, the opposite of the desired end generally materializes. Any thoughts regarding this?


2 Pet 2:1-3, (KJV)

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.