Is Babylon the Great in Revelation, America ?

[Ali Mahfuz]

Hi, this is the first thread i've started here but my question is valid. I have studied Last Day's Prophecies for Years now and have come to the conclusion that Babylon the Great in Rev:Ch. 18 is most definately refering to the USA. For years this chapter has bothered me, i found it too painful to consider America's destruction in one hour. verses 11-13 bother me the most as i believe they describe the opulence, wealth and greed of the richest Civilization in the history of the World. Also, note the four wheeled cariages John mentions in his vision, in his day, they only had 2 wheeled wagons, chariots and carriages. He was definately seeing a future event, but was Babylon America ?

I believe we must be destroyed before the One World Gov't can be formed. Doesn't our Constitution and the Decleration of Independance forbid us from joining any organization that causes us to forfiet our Soveriegn Independance ? I believe they do so we would impede its formation by our very existance.

We are also shaking up Despot's Dictators and Totalitarian Regimes around the World with the Bush Doctrine which i agree with, but Evil has never just laid down and died when challenged by a Rightous Opposition. I believe fear of Worldwide Liberty could cause these despots to unite under one banner to destroy the source of the threat to their combined futures. Am i paranoid ? Or does this make any sense scriptually to anyone else ? Thanks, Ali



Babylon is Destroyed



18:1 After these things I saw another angel, who possessed great authority, coming down out of heaven, and the earth was lit up by his radiance.1 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#181) 18:2 He2 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#182) shouted with a powerful voice:

“Fallen, fallen, is Babylon the great!

She3 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#183) has become a lair for demons,

a haunt4 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#184) for every unclean spirit,

a haunt for every unclean bird,

a haunt for every unclean and detested beast.5 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#185)

18:3 For all the nations6 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#186) have fallen7 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#187) from the wine of her immoral passion,8 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#188)

and the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality with her,

and the merchants of the earth have gotten rich from the power of her sensual behavior.”9 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#189)

18:4 Then10 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1810) I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, so you will not take part in her sins and so you will not receive her plagues, 18:5 because her sins have piled11 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1811) up all the way to heaven12 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1812) and God has remembered13 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1813) her crimes.14 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1814) 18:6 Repay her the same way she repaid others;15 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1815) pay her back double16 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1816) corresponding to her deeds. In the cup she mixed, mix double the amount for her. 18:7 As much as17 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1817) she exalted herself and lived in sensual luxury,18 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1818) to this extent give her torment and grief because she said to herself,19 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1819) ‘I rule as queen and am no widow; I will never experience grief!’ 18:8 For this reason, she will experience her plagues20 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1820) in a single day: disease,21 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1821) mourning,22 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1822) and famine, and she will be burned down23 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1823) with fire, because the Lord God who judges her is powerful!”

18:9 Then24 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1824) the kings of the earth who committed immoral acts with her and lived in sensual luxury25 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1825) with her will weep and wail for her when they see the smoke from the fire that burns her up.26 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1826) 18:10 They will stand a long way off because they are afraid of her torment, and will say,

“Woe, woe, O great city,

Babylon the powerful city!

For in a single hour your doom27 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1827) has come!”

18:11 Then28 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1828) the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn for her because no one buys their cargo29 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1829) any longer— 18:12 cargo such as gold, silver,30 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1830) precious stones, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk,31 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1831) scarlet cloth,32 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1832) all sorts of things made of citron wood,33 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1833) all sorts of objects made of ivory, all sorts of things made of expensive wood, bronze, iron and marble, 18:13 cinnamon, spice,34 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1834) incense, perfumed ointment,35 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1835) frankincense,36 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1836) wine, olive oil and costly flour,37 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1837) wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and four-wheeled carriages,38 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1838) slaves and human lives.39 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1839)

18:14 (The ripe fruit40 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1840) you greatly desired41 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1841)

has gone from you,

and all your luxury42 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1842) and splendor43 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1843)

have gone from you—

they will never ever be found again!)44 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1844)

18:15 The merchants who sold45 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1845) these things, who got rich from her, will stand a long way off because they are afraid of her torment. They will weep46 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1846) and mourn, 18:16 saying,

“Woe, woe, O great city—

dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet clothing,47 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1847)

and adorned with gold,48 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1848) precious stones, and pearls—

18:17 because in a single hour such great wealth has been destroyed!”49 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1849)

And every ship’s captain,50 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1850) and all who sail along the coast51 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1851)—seamen, and all who52 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1852) make their living from the sea, stood a long way off 18:18 and began to shout53 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1853) when they saw the smoke from the fire that burned her up,54 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1854) “Who is like the great city?” 18:19 And they threw dust on their heads and were shouting with weeping and mourning,55 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1855)

“Woe, Woe, O great city—

in which all those who had ships on the sea got rich from her wealth—

because in a single hour she has been destroyed!”56 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1856)

18:20 (Rejoice over her, O heaven,

and you saints and apostles and prophets,

for God has pronounced judgment57 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1857) against her on your behalf!)58 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1858)

18:21 Then59 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1859) one powerful angel picked up a stone like a huge millstone, threw it into the sea, and said,

“With this kind of sudden violent force60 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1860)

Babylon the great city will be thrown down61 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1861)

and it will never be found again!

18:22 And the sound of the harpists, musicians,

flute players, and trumpeters

will never be heard in you62 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1862) again.

No63 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1863) craftsman64 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1864) who practices any trade

will ever be found in you again;

the noise of a mill65 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1865) will never be heard in you again.

18:23 Even the light from a lamp

will never shine in you again!

The voices of the bridegroom and his bride

will never be heard in you again.

For your merchants were the tycoons of the world,

because all the nations66 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1866) were deceived by your magic spells!67 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1867)

18:24 The68 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1868) blood of the saints and prophets was found in her,69 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1869)

along with the blood70 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev18_notes.htm#1870) of all those who had been killed on the earth.” Next Chapter (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev19.htm)

[Robert R. Higby]

The language certainly seems to fit in many respects. However, the hermeneutic utilized to arrive at this conclusion (reasoning from analogy) is not based on the gospel revealed to Paul as the primary interpreter of scripture. It is the gospel that judges mankind and nations, not the presence of hedonism in a nation or the lack of it. Islamic nations with no hedonism are far more wicked in God's estimation and will suffer much greater judgment.

In many other ways (outside of abundant hedonism), America is not like ancient Babylon. The issue of 'relative evil'--in light of all history--must be taken into account here. Plus the issue of a large presence of Christ's true people. :cool:

[Ali Mahfuz]

The language certainly seems to fit in many respects. However, the hermeneutic utilized to arrive at this conclusion (reasoning from analogy) is not based on the gospel revealed to Paul as the primary interpreter of scripture. It is the gospel that judges mankind and nations, not the presence of hedonism in a nation or the lack of it.

:) Where is the reasoning from analogy you speak of ? And how does this interpretation conflict with Paul's teachings ? God has judged every Nation in Earths History by their morality and Human Rights practices whether they recognised Him or not.

It is also written that "to whom much is given, much will be required". America is the wealthiest Nation of the Modern Era whose culture has spread through out the World. Our Technology fulfills the prophecy,"In The Last Day's men will be like god's are". And where is the Holy Spirit in your interptetation of this chapter ? Is there any sense within your Spirit of God's truth or do you also find this thought so disturbing, your spirit just wants to reject it as a possibility ?:)

Islamic nations with no hedonism are far more wicked in God's estimation and will suffer much greater judgment.

:) Islamic Nations are far more hedonistic than we are, it is just done in private. Is not a man overpowering a woman under false pretense of male superiority the epitomy of hedonism ? And remember, if we are in a Spiritual Battle, then satan is serving and protecting his army, and that Army is Radical Islam.

It's good to remember also that we want to figure out what God's plan is, not write the ending ourselves. And doesn't our Father allow the Sun to rise and set on the evil as well as the good ? A Father also chastens those whom He Loves, which is why we have a greater responsibility to be a moral example to the World in response to God giving us the Constitution that has made us the richest Country in Earths History.:)

In many other ways (outside of abundant hedonism), America is not like ancient Babylon. The issue of 'relative evil'--in light of all history--must be taken into account here. Plus the issue of a large presence of Christ's true people.

:) Oh really, are you saying you could find a sin that took place in Babylon that doesn't happen in America today ? I was born in Mass., raised in N.H.; Abortion is legal, Prostitution, Gambling, Drugs, Oral Sex isn't even sex since Clinton, we hate the death sentence yet we embrace abortion.

As to Christ's true people, He said be hot or cold but the luke warm i will spat out of my mouth. With all that we have been given, and given the fact that we truly do live as god's do when compared to about 70% of the World's population, i must then ask you this, who do you think Revelation Ch. 18 is refering to, assuming you obviously see that John was refering to a Last Day's civilization.

The Book inherantly speaks to last days events, why would he then be talking about Civilizations that fell before the modern era ? Let's not forget common sense, God is very consistent in His character and His judgements.:)

[wildboar]

What about the Netherlands or Canada? As far as you list of sins go they seem to excel us. I believe it better to look at Babylon as representing all worldly lusts rather than a specific country. All Christians no matter where they live are strangers living in Babylon.

[Brandan Kraft]

:) Oh really, are you saying you could find a sin that took place in Babylon that doesn't happen in America today ? I was born in Mass., raised in N.H.; Abortion is legal, Prostitution, Gambling, Drugs, Oral Sex isn't even sex since Clinton, we hate the death sentence yet we embrace abortion.

As to Christ's true people, He said be hot or cold but the luke warm i will spat out of my mouth. With all that we have been given, and given the fact that we truly do live as god's do when compared to about 70% of the World's population, i must then ask you this, who do you think Revelation Ch. 18 is refering to, assuming you obviously see that John was refering to a Last Day's civilization.

The Book inherantly speaks to last days events, why would he then be talking about Civilizations that fell before the modern era ? Let's not forget common sense, God is very consistent in His character and His judgements.:)What about the blasphemous doctrine called "free will?"

[Ali Mahfuz]

What about the blasphemous doctrine called "free will?"

Can you please explain what you mean by this ? Free Will is what seperates us from the Animals and even the Angels. It makes us the only creatures in all of God's creation that share His ability to accept or reject the truth He offers. Please show verses in the Word that claim it's a blasphemous doctrine ?


Wildboar, Canada and the Netherlands haven't exported their cultures by way of Films, Music and Fashion as we have. America's influence on the World in these area's is without question, greater than any other Country.

[ray kikkert]

Can you please explain what you mean by this ? Free Will is what seperates us from the Animals and even the Angels. It makes us the only creatures in all of God's creation that share His ability to accept or reject the truth He offers. Please show verses in the Word that claim it's a blasphemous doctrine ?
.
Scripture is clear that man in a sense did have a will that was free before the fall since man did that which was in obedience to God His Father and Creator, that is true freedom for the creature. After the fall though his will became bound by sin. Thus man was born and conceived in sin from that time forward and is prone to hate God and his neighbour.
Man of himself does not have the ability to accept the truth of the gospel. It must be and always will be the unconditional work of God in His vessel of honor. Man apart from God will always be in bondage to sin and suffer eternal damnation. Romans 9.

Wildboar, Canada and the Netherlands haven't exported their cultures by way of Films, Music and Fashion as we have. America's influence on the World in these area's is without question, greater than any other Country.[/QUOTE]

This is untrue. Canada has exported these blasphemous sins throughout the world as has the USA. To not see this is to be quilty of tarrying too long at the Guiness on St. Patty's Day.

With respect to Revelation, it would be wise not to make a literal interpretation which contradicts that which is spoken elsewhere in Scripture. Not to mention the work of the Holy Spirit throughout history with respect to how the church of Christ throughout time has interpreted the things you speak of here. How in depth of a study have you made of this? Have you took a look at how the church throughout history has dealt with this? If you would like some links or help, I am sure I as the rest here can provide them.

[Robert R. Higby]

There is no way to distinguish one nation from another when it comes to moral wickedness; all are guilty.

With all that we have been given, and given the fact that we truly do live as god's do when compared to about 70% of the World's population, i must then ask you this, who do you think Revelation Ch. 18 is refering to, assuming you obviously see that John was refering to a Last Day's civilization.

Well, if it is referring to America, unquestionably we must all move because God commands his people to come out of her.

Babylon is the great whore; the false system of pseudo-Christianity that emerged after the death of Paul. The great apostasy resulted in MANY false organized religions with ecclesiastical power and climaxed in the emergence of the most demonic religion of all: Islam.

The Book inherantly speaks to last days events, why would he then be talking about Civilizations that fell before the modern era ? Let's not forget common sense, God is very consistent in His character and His judgements.

I did not say that it was talking about those civilizations; the character and content of those civilizations is referred to in symbolism to refer to the false system of pseudo-Christianity empowered by governments and institutions of religion. It involves all the character and sins of ancient Babylon; often, as you say, in a 'hidden' manner. :cool:

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Babylon is the great whore; the false system of pseudo-Christianity that emerged after the death of Paul.

Agreed...

She is commiting fornication with "Babylon", covering her bed with multi-coloured linens from Egypt. Her Husband having taken a bag of money, has gone away on a long journey, and will not return unitl the appointed day.

[Ali Mahfuz]

Thanks for the feedback guy's, but are you implying that Revelation isn't a Last Day's Prophetic Vision ?


Babylon is the great whore; the false system of pseudo-Christianity that emerged after the death of Paul. The great apostasy resulted in MANY false organized religions with ecclesiastical power and climaxed in the emergence of the most demonic religion of all: Islam.

And if this is true, who is the New Roman Empire ?


13:1 Then1 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#131) I saw a beast coming up out of the sea. It2 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#132) had ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns were ten diadem crowns,3 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#133) and on its heads a blasphemous name.4 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#134) 13:2 Now5 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#135) the beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. The6 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#136) dragon gave the beast7 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#137) his power, his throne, and great authority to rule.8 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#138) 13:3 One of the beast’s9 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#139) heads appeared to have been killed,10 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1310) but the lethal wound had been healed.11 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1311) And the whole world followed12 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1312) the beast in amazement;




Rev,11:8 Their21 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev11_notes.htm#1121) corpses will lie in the street22 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev11_notes.htm#1122) of the great city that is symbolically23 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev11_notes.htm#1123) called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also crucified. Isn't this refering to Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified ?


13:7 The beast22 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1322) was permitted to go to war against the saints and conquer them.23 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1323) He was given ruling authority24 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1324) over every tribe, people,25 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1325) language, and nation, 13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast,26 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1326) everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world27 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1327) in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.28 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1328) 13:9 If anyone has an ear, he had better listen!


13:10 If anyone is meant for captivity,

into captivity he will go.

If anyone is to be killed by the sword,29 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1329)

then by the sword he must be killed. This30 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1330) requires steadfast endurance31 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1331) and faith from the saints.

Doesn't this clearly say the Beast has been given authority to fight and defeat the Saints ?

I guess what would be a big help to me is, can someone capsulise how they see these events coming together and how Rev. 17 and 18 fits in from your perspective ?

[wildboar]

Both futurist and preterist interpretations of Revelation are wrong and do not fit the Scriptural interpretation of prophecy that we find within Scripture. For the most part Revelation describes the period from Pentecost until the judgment time. These events are continually repeated and continually increase until they reach their fulness at the end of the age. The visions are not successive but parallel.

The beast in ch. 13 represents all earthly kingdoms as they persecute the church and stand opposed to the kingdom of God. The multiple crowns indicate that it is not a single nation, but the world as it stands opposed to Christianity and which will eventually unite against it.

11:8 speaks of a time (which is ocurring already in some countries) in which the church will be driven underground and seem to be completely killed off with no influence. "The Great City" is best identified as the ungodly world and not the earthly city of Jerusalem. We find various other places where Babylon the Great is called the Great City (14:8; 16:19; 17:18;etc.) It is like Egypt because it persecutes the saints. The fact that the term "spiritually" is used shows that it is not to be taken literalistically, referring to earthly cities. "Where" in Revelation always introduces symbolic geography.

Rev. 17-18 speak of the final judgment of Babylon and the Beast.

[Robert R. Higby]

I concur pretty much with everything WB has said.

Babylon the Great is the whore who rides and directs the beast; i.e., the false systems of pseudo-Christianity and their stepchildren (like Islam) use certain wicked governments of this world (represented collectively in the beast with its heads and horns) to persecute the saints throughout history.

I tend to view ch. 11 as re-capitulative; i.e., the 'death/resurrection of the church' after its prophetic testimony is not a one-time event at the chronological end of history but something that occurs throughout the history after Christ.

The 'last hour reign' in Rev. 17 remains a mystery and know one will know the nature of its fulfullment until that portion of history is un-sealed. Hoeksema believes that the symbolism refers to the resurrection of a kingdom like that of Nimrod (the 8th king)--which would be an attempt at 'one world religion' and government such as has not yet been seen. But I don't think we can be dogmatic about it; God will reveal what it is in time. It could be something already here that the Lord will open our eyes to at some point. :cool:

[Ali Mahfuz]

Thank's Wildboar, i agree with you as this is an overview based on theological reasoning from centuries of study and scriptural interpretation. from my perspective though, we are the first Generation in a real position to look at the World around us and actually recognise the places refered to in Ancient Prophetic Visions. For example,

Quote:
13:1 Then1 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#131) I saw a beast coming up out of the sea. It2 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#132) had ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns were ten diadem crowns,3 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#133) and on its heads a blasphemous name.4 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#134) 13:2 Now5 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#135) the beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. The6 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#136) dragon gave the beast7 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#137) his power, his throne, and great authority to rule.8 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#138) 13:3 One of the beast’s9 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#139) heads appeared to have been killed,10 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1310) but the lethal wound had been healed.11 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1311) And the whole world followed12 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1312) the beast in amazement;

Rev,13 1-3 is describing the rise of Antichrist from within the EU specifically, the animals in 13:2 represent the Countries that make up the seperations of Authority that give him his power. 13:3 describes that the Antichrist will recieve a fatal head wound, but will be miraculously healed and the whole World will follow him in amazement of his powers.

Quote:
Rev,11:8 Their21 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev11_notes.htm#1121) corpses will lie in the street22 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev11_notes.htm#1122) of the great city that is symbolically23 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev11_notes.htm#1123) called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also crucified.

This passage is refering specifically to the two whitnesses, some believe are Moses, whom God burried and Elijah, who was taken away by the Flaming Chariot. The fact that the city is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt matches up with where Jesus was crucified, which is Jerusalem. The value of this is that the whitnesses will be killed in the Holy City and every eye on Earth will view the scene, something that could only happen since the advent of the TV.


Now, back to Rev.18, it is obvious to me if it is refering to the Great City, it isn't a city but a Nation or even a Continent. By its very description it is describing the richest society that has ever existed, a society who very existance has changed and affected the World in a negative way morally. In todays world, if you had to choose a Country that fits the description, who would you say the Prophecy is refering to ? To me, as scary a prospect as i find it to be, America's moral decadence, Secular Humanism and our luke warmness as a Nation that was built on God's Blessings and Freedoms, will determine our final destruction and usher in the Tribulation period.


Quote:
13:7 The beast22 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1322) was permitted to go to war against the saints and conquer them.23 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1323) He was given ruling authority24 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1324) over every tribe, people,25 (http://www.bible.org/netbible/rev13_notes.htm#1325) language, and nation, 13:8 and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast,

This passage is clearly saying the AC will be given authority over the Saints to conquer them. Besides that, i believe in the real World, the Church in America would recognise the AC for what he is, besides the predominant sin from the Nation we inhabit, the warning in Ch18 for the Saints to flee this Great City, and don't forget that verse that haunts my mind and Spirit every time i study 18, and that is, "To those to whom much is given, much will be required.

These are just some of the reasons that i believe the US must be destroyed in order for the Trib to begin. It is prevalent in the American Christian Community that we americans will float through the peaceful half of the Trib and be gently Raptured right into the Wedding Ceremony of the Groom and his bride the Church, or be Raptured at the very beginning of the Trib. I reject this scenario because "we are" the beginning of the Trib. Our destruction will cause such panic around the World, and Israel will be in no position to reject a Peace Plan that will allow them to rebuild the Temple, but not to the outer court and walls, because that belongs to the Gentiles.

[Robert R. Higby]

To my knowledge, a large number of those contributing here do not accept the particular definitions of rapture, antichrist, Jewish restoration, tribulation, etc. that you are referring to. These are part of a Futurist hermeneutic of interpretation started by the Catholic Jesuits and plagiarized by the Scottish Irvingites of the earlier 19th century. J. N. Darby (British) and William Davis (American) re-fashioned the Irvingite version of Futurism into different systems of interpretation that ultimately resulted in the myriad of different revisionist versions that we have today. :cool:

[wildboar]

The Bible speaks of tribulation as the experience of every Christian, not just a select few at the end of time. Tribulation will certainly increase and increase as time goes on. I think those who today are being killled, persecuted, and tortured for their faith would find little comfort in the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture.

[GraceAmbassador]

To my knowledge, a large number of those contributing here do not accept the particular definitions of rapture, antichrist, Jewish restoration, tribulation, etc. that you are referring to. These are part of a Futurist hermeneutic of interpretation started by the Catholic Jesuits and plagiarized by the Scottish Irvingites of the earlier 19th century. J. N. Darby (British) and William Davis (American) re-fashioned the Irvingite version of Futurism into different systems of interpretation that ultimately resulted in the myriad of different revisionist versions that we have today. :cool:

As one who is a "non-cessassionist" Calvinist, perhaps as stated in Brother Ali's profile, I once defended the same position he today defends and also, as he does, searched and attempted to find the USA in every single futurist "prophecy" (redundance intended) of the Bible. However, although I don't believe Paul teaches that the Ekklesia will go through the tribulation period (Paul says that we have NOT been saved to "wrath" in 1 Thess 1:10 and 5:9 - considering that we all exegete "wrath" as stated in Isaiah 61 and references about a future "wrath"), I think that the notion of Israel building the temple and the "sacrifice" being restored is somewhat dangerous since it cancels the "once and for all" teaching of Hebrews, since the Mosaic sacrifice is supposedly restored which it would not make any sense (perhaps as my long sentence) since that would be the same as cancelling Grace.

We need to stop (as a humble suggestion) to look upon prophecy and try to find "geographically" what are the participants or targets of them. We have to be confident that eschatological words should be used to "confort one another" as Paul advises.

Sin is sin all over. Proportionally, smaller countries, and countries where the flow of information and modernism is less evident than in America, they "don't sin" as America sins. However, I have no Biblical basis to say that one "nation is more of a sinner than the other". Again, I used to agree with Billy Graham that "if God does not bring judgment upon America, He has to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah" (a phrase attributed to him). But again, in the eyes of God, nations are equally sinners. It is not the intensity of the sin that matters, but the intrinsic sin that God places His wrath upon. So much as Grace is independent from the amount of works one performs, I believe that the wrath of God is applied NOT TO THE AMOUNT OF SIN, but to the intrinsic sin; and that is true of every nation.

I really don't know where, if or what America is spoken of in the Bible. But if one looks at religious systems, let's be open: The only matching picture of Babylon is the Roman Catholic Church along with some ramifications of the "Evangelical Movement", whether they attempt to hide the vestiges of Rome or indeed have none. These are Babylonian, they have prostituted, they are a system of compromise, they are a system which looks for a "charismatic" (not the pentecostal kind) leader and follow "the creature more than the creator".

My humble opinion only...

Milt

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

I really don't know where, if or what America is spoken of in the Bible. But if one looks at religious systems, let's be open: The only matching picture of Babylon is the Roman Catholic Church along with some ramifications of the "Evangelical Movement", whether they attempt to hide the vestiges of Rome or indeed have none. These are Babylonian, they have prostituted, they are a system of compromise, they are a system which looks for a "charismatic" (not the pentecostal kind) leader and follow "the creature more than the creator".

My humble opinion only...

Milt

Agreed. And I think that this is the crux of the matter.

Everyone is busy pointing the finger at the other guy but fail to acknowlegde they more or less have been begat by the same whore...

Someone once asked a question that I found to be very profound. So I'll ask it here;

At what point do we reform the "man of sin"?

[melted]

I have been of the popular opinion (ie: Left Behind type beliefs) in regards to Revelation and end times prophecy in general. I've begun to get away from that though as I don't believe that it can be as obvious as the world would like to believe.

Everyone and their brother knows to look to the UN or EU for the antichrist, and not to get implants in their hands, and how to add up the letters in a name to get 666.

Can it really be that obvious? I'm of the opinion that it is not, and that when the time comes, only Christ's own will see the truth. This assumption does not allow for the prophecies to be answer so obviously.

[Robert R. Higby]

Thanks, Melted, for your observations.

The Antichrist or whore of Babylon cannot possibly be America, in spite of its great hedonistic sins. The reason: America is not drunk with the blood of the saints. This is how it differs from the description of Babylon in Revelation; that is why I earlier stated that America is not an exact parallel with the Babylon describe there (in spite of its extreme wealth, obsession with materialism, and hedonism).

Some will try and propose that the prominent sin of abortion in America qualifies it as a nation for the title "drunk with the blood of the saints." No way! Every nation in history has tolerated abortion, great sin that it is. Unless Christ miraculously stopped every abortion in progress in the houses on earth that he passed in his journeys (which he did not), we have no right to say that abortion is the equivalent of the shedding of the blood of the saints.

Babylon of old persecuted the saints (by passing a law against the worship of the true God); America so far has not. :cool:

Scott: At what point do we reform the "man of sin"?

Never! On this we agree as much as on anything!

[doctr_of_grace]

I have been of the popular opinion (ie: Left Behind type beliefs) in regards to Revelation and end times prophecy in general. I've begun to get away from that though as I don't believe that it can be as obvious as the world would like to believe.

Everyone and their brother knows to look to the UN or EU for the antichrist, and not to get implants in their hands, and how to add up the letters in a name to get 666.

Can it really be that obvious? I'm of the opinion that it is not, and that when the time comes, only Christ's own will see the truth. This assumption does not allow for the prophecies to be answer so obviously.
Melted ...
Do you mean that the futurists interpretation is the obvious one? I actually see it as extremely confusing. Perhaps you can explain to me this obvious connection of the book of Revelation and the Tim LaHaye types. They have taken a book of "revelation" or unveiling and turned it into some great mystery IMHO. I also don't agree that prophesy is something that is outside the understanding of the regenerate man. hmmmm ... not that full understanding and knowledge of the things of God are for us creatures but that what is revealed is for us and the believer will be edified and comforted by that revelation. I find the book of revelation very comforting but when I was part of the "evangelical" dispensational camp it was a book used to cause the christian to want to escape.

The statement that we are saved from the "wrath" of God has nothing to do with earthly tribulation. The wrath of God is the eternal punishment of the reprobate. To say that God will remove his church from the earth prior to some "great tribulation" is a false belief that leads one down the road of many erros and causes one to believe that God will save you from some struggle here on earth. Don't forget what he also says about the lukewarm church ... He chastens those he loves.

Perhaps I am off topic haha ... it has been awhile since posting but had to leave you my 2 cents again. :D

Praise be to God .... Jan

[Robert R. Higby]

Here is a link to a news story about a Muslim false prophet predicting the annihilation of America, based on the Koran. I'm sure that this approach would harmonize with the false notion that America is Babylon the Great who will be destroyed for her many iniquities!

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/4/1/161216.shtml

[samohtwerdna]

The Antichrist or whore of Babylon cannot possibly be America, in spite of its great hedonistic sins. The reason: America is not drunk with the blood of the saints. This is how it differs from the description of Babylon in Revelation; that is why I earlier stated that America is not an exact parallel with the Babylon describe there (in spite of its extreme wealth, obsession with materialism, and hedonism).

Hello Bob!
Quick question regarding this quote. Can the drunkeness refer to the pleasure taken in dying Saints and not the actual killing?

[InChristAlways]

Hi, this is the first thread i've started here but my question is valid. I have studied Last Day's Prophecies for Years now and have come to the conclusion that Babylon the Great in Rev:Ch. 18 is most definately refering to the USA. For years this chapter has bothered me, i found it too painful to consider America's destruction in one hour. verses 11-13 bother me the most as i believe they describe the opulence, wealth and greed of the richest Civilization in the history of the World. Also, note the four wheeled cariages John mentions in his vision, in his day, they only had 2 wheeled wagons, chariots and carriages. He was definately seeing a future event, but was Babylon America ? Hi. The throne of Satan was already around when John visioned revelation. The 5th plague is being poured out on the throne/seat of the Beast. The only place I can think of is Jerusalem itself. The purple and linen refer to the Rich Man in the parable of Luke as being the house of Judah[Harlot] and jewish priest. I really don't see how America, Iraq, Egypt or any other place can be "mystery babylon".
Reve chapt 14 makes it extremely obvious that it is Israel and the curses of Deut 28 falling on them[as they are shown "cursed" by God in Malachi, but the Elect are shown being "reaped" before the wraths are poured out. Hard to view it any other way.

reve 3:9 "Indeed I will make [those] of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie -- indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected to bring forth [good] grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 " And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected to bring forth [good] grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? [i]5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; [And] break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.

reve 14: [i]14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle............... 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

[Ivor Thomas]

Zechariah chapter 14; refutes the assertion you make, that Israel is the mystery Babylon of Revelation, Because The Lord fights for Israel again'st the nations Zechariah 14;v3; this final Battle of course is yet to come when the Lord returns,Zech;14; v4;. Ivor Thomas

[Robert R. Higby]

Quick question regarding this quote. Can the drunkeness refer to the pleasure taken in dying Saints and not the actual killing?

On what basis would we think that is the case? The theme of Revelation has to do with the actual shedding of the blood of the saints as a testimony to Jesus Christ.

I would never excuse the hedonistic sins of America or any other nation. God will take action against such wickedness wherever it is found, as he has and continues to do (Rom. 1:18ff.). One of the strongest evidences today of God's judging America is his handing it over to the love and praises of homosexual perversity, just as Paul indicates God will do to unrepentant humanity. God is also judging America by destroying its seed, name, and therefore a large portion of its future--through extreme legalized abortion. We could talk about the increase of false religions (especially Islam), i.e., the strong delusions that God is sending to America to pour his wrath out on its love of fables instead of the gospel. Plus we could talk about increasing material and economic judgments. But that is something different than what Revelation describes re: Babylon who is drunk with the blood of the saints (which is celebrating the ACTUAL killing of those who love the gospel). That description can only be referring to the community of whoring religious institutions coming out of the great apostasy after Paul's death.

Ivor does not see that God is finished with Israel after the flesh, well, we are discussing that in another thread. As the Lord gave Ninevah 40 days to repent, he gave fleshly Israel 40 years to repent after it crucified the Lord of glory. But after his wrath came upon ancient Judaism to the uttermost, it is never to be resurrected for all eternity. His covenant with fleshly Israel was always conditional; his unconditional promise to bless the material seed of Abraham has been fulfilled outside of blessing the material nation. :cool:

[Ivor Thomas]

Zechariah chapter 14; refutes the assertion you make, that Israel is the mystery Babylon of Revelation, Because The Lord fights for Israel again'st the nations Zechariah 14;v3; this final Battle of course is yet to come when the Lord returns,Zech;14; v4;. Ivor ThomasBob I wrote this above in reply to[ inChrist] post on this thread where he say's Israel is Babylon, inChrist is putting forward by what he writes a Preterist teaching, myself I do not think God has finished altogether with Israel, I allso believe in the second coming literally of our Lord as it say's in zechariah ch14; and other places such as Acts the same has he went he will return. Ivor.:cool:

[Robert R. Higby]

Ivor, I also believe totally in the literal and personal (Divine/material human) final Advent of Jesus Christ. I also agree that the nation of Israel today is not the Babylon described in Revelation (in the same manner that America is not). The U.S. should defend the right of Israel to exist as a nation because its principles of just government are infinitely superior to Islamic government that murders Christians. Thanks for your comments. :cool:

[InChristAlways]

Zechariah chapter 14; refutes the assertion you make, that Israel is the mystery Babylon of Revelation, Because The Lord fights for Israel again'st the nations Zechariah 14;v3; this final Battle of course is yet to come when the Lord returns,Zech;14; v4;. Ivor ThomasIf I recall history, Rome fell in in the 4th century. Vs 3 is put in as future It appears, as vs 4 is still referring to the Day of The Lord of vss 1-2. Israel today is symbolically "Egypt" as there were never any curses put on the gentiles, as Israel was God's firstborn nation and were given Laws to keep, which they failed to do.
Deut 28:68 And the Lord will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promised that you should never make again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer."
There are 3 "days of the Lord events" in revelation, but only One Day of the Lord in the Bible. I propose that Ezekiel 39 is the same event as Revelation 19 and Gog-Magog in chapt 20[the Day God Glorifies Himself], just as Isaiah 5/parable of the Vineyard is the same event as the Grapes of Wrath in chapt 14[showing this Wrath event is specifically against Israel I believe]. Revelation has to be about joining both Nations of Judah and Israel again, as why else show the 12 tribes? Note the Lion of the Tribe of Judah also, and I don't think He is too happy about the house of Judah having Him crucified.

Most don't seem to notice the 3 different "Days of the Lord" in revelation or the different resurrections, but there can only be One event that fulfills Daniel 12 and Luke 21:22. Just what I have viewed from studying revelation for about 5 months on my own, but just my views, so I am only putting them up for interest. I was allowed to put my studies on this board if any are interested in viewing them, otherwise I will just refrain from posting here if the moderators feel my views are "unorthodox". God bless.http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, [Making] a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD. 17 " And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field: "Assemble yourselves and come; Gather together from all sides to My sacrificial meal Which I am sacrificing for you, A great sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel, That you may eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You shall eat the flesh of the mighty,

reve 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men,

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected to bring forth [good] grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 " And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected to bring forth [good] grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? [i]5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; [And] break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.

reve 14: [i]14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle............... 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.