Quiz for "Soul Winners"

[Brandan Kraft]

Quiz for Soul Winners
by C.C. Morris (http://www.pristinegrace.org/archive.php?view=author&author=C.C.+Morris)

This is a short quiz to test the Bible knowledge of soul-winners, revivalists, people who hand out tracts and put religious handbills on windshields and screen doors, and all who equate quality of worship with quantity of activity. Also, this quiz might acquaint them with a few verses they did not know were in the Bible.
Take as long as you like with this quiz, as there is no time limit. Use your Bible, and strive for quality in your answers, rather than merely working for quantity. After all, there are some things more important than soul-winning.

1.Where is the Bible text that says to accept Jesus before it is too late?

2.Where is the Bible text that says to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior?

3.Where does the Bible mention a "personal savior" at all?Is there any other kind of a savior than a personal one?What other kind of savior is there?

4.Please give the Bible reference where the often-quoted text, "Whosoever will may come," is located.

5.Did Christ pray for the world?For whom did He pray? (John 17.9)

6.Were Christ’s parables used as "sermon illustrations" to make His teachings plain? (Mark 4.11-12)

7.If Christ saved the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1.15), could there be any lesser sinner that He could not save, if He desired to do so?

8.Regarding the "unsaved," does God (a) have the desire to save them but lack the ability; (b) have both the desire and the ability to save them (i. e., universal salvation); (c) lack both the ability and the desire to save them; or, (d) have the ability but not the desire to save them? (See Job 23.13, Psalm 115.3, Psalm 135.6)

9.Does God desire the salvation of those who were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2.8)? .

10.Does God desire the salvation of those who, as natural brute beasts, are made to be taken and destroyed (2 Peter 2.12)? .

11.Does God desire the salvation of those who were before of old ordained to "this condemnation (Jude 4)"?

12. Does God desire the salvation of Esau? Of Pharaoh?Of those whom He hardens?Of those vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (Romans 9.13-22)? .

13.When was the last time you saw a vessel fit itself for anything?

14. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor (Romans 9.21)?

15. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? (Romans 9.14 )

16. Who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, "Why has thou made me thus?"? (Romans 9.20)

17. Does God wish to save those who are now in Hell? If He does, why doesn’t He do so, since He has all power?If He does not wish to save them, did He ever desire to do so? If He at one time did desire to save them, when did the unchangeable God (Malachi 3.6) change, and who or what changed Him?

18. If God is changeable, won’t the sons of Jacob be consumed? (Malachi 3.6)

19. Does Christ (a) seek more people than He saves, (b) save more people than He seeks, or (c) is His seeking and His saving to the exact same extent? (Luke 19.10)

20. Is Jesus Christ a better seeker than He is a savior? (Luke 19.10)

21. If you "seek and ye shall find (Matthew 7.7)," will not Christ most certainly do the same? Will He be less successful than you?

22. What did Isaiah mean when he prayed, "O Lord, why hast Thou made us to err from Thy ways, and hardened our hearts from Thy fear (Isaiah 63.17)?"?

23. Whom does God seek--His servants, or Satan’s servants? (Psalm 119.176)

24. Since almost no one denies that the devil can and does work in his children (Ephesians 2.2), why would anyone deny that (a) God works in His children, or (b) God also works in the devil’s children—unless they believe the devil has more power than God?

25. Why does Isaiah say that God will ordain peace for His people? (Isaiah 26.12)

26. See Hosea 4.17. If Ephraim is joined to idols, why don’t we send missionaries to him to teach him to do better? Why let him alone?

27. Can anyone know the Father or the Son, short of divine revelation? (Matthew 11.25-27)

28. Can you change your belief?

29. Can the people whom God has delivered over to strong delusion that they might believe a lie that they might be damned who believed not the truth (2 Thessalonians 2.11-12) change their belief?

30. Can those whom God gave over to a reprobate mind (Romans 1.28) change their belief?

31. Can those to whom God has given belief (Philippians 1.29) change their belief?

32. Can you keep from believing something you believe is the truth?

33. Were Adam and Eve saved? If they were, who was the soul-winner who led them to God? Did not their salvation establish the precedent for all salvation?

34. How many ways does God have to save people?

35. What else besides John 3.16 did Jesus Christ say about God’s love?

36. How many sermons on "the love of God" are recorded in the book of Acts?

37. Where is the verse that says to give your heart to God?

38. Where is the text that says to "open your heart and let Jesus come in"?

39. Who opened Lydia’s heart? (Acts 16.14)

40. What does "so" mean in John 3.16?

41. Does God save sinners because of what they do, or because of what Christ has done, or both, or neither?

42. Whatever will be will be--will it not? Do you know anyone who really believes that (a) whatever will be won’t be, or (b) whatever won’t be will be?

43. Why didn’t Ephraim repent before he was turned? (Jeremiah 31.18f)

44. In Psalm 119.32, why wouldn’t the psalmist run the way of God’s commandments before God enlarged his heart?

45. In Psalm 119.35, if the psalmist delights in the path of God’s commandments, then why must he be made to go in that path?

46. Are the terms "saved," "born again, "regenerated," and "quickened" all synonymous? That is, do they all refer to the same experience?

47. If "quicken" means the same as to regenerate, and the psalmist means in Psalm 119.50 and 119.93 that God has regenerated him by the means of the Bible, then why does he pray to be quickened in Psalm 119.25, 37, 40, 88, 149, 154, 156, 159, and other places?

48. If the psalmist is "saved," then why does he pray for God to save him (Psalm 119.94, 146)? Or, did "unsaved" men write the Bible?

49. Why would the psalmist pray that God would not incline his heart to covetousness (Psalm 119.36) or any evil thing (Psalm 141.4) if that were not within God’s prerogative, power, and disposal?

50. Were those whose sins remained (John 9.41) part of the world whose sins the Lamb of God took away (John 1.29)? Can sins be taken away and also remain?

51. Name one child of God that ever totally and finally apostatized.

52. Name one person for whom Christ died that was or will be damned eternally.

53. (a) Don’t you think you would save everyone, if you could have your way? And (b) Didn’t God say, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways (Isaiah 55.8)"?

54. If all a person has to do to be saved is call on the Lord, then why didn’t the Lord save David’s enemies when they cried unto Him (Psalm 18.40-41)? .

55.God says, "Every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters (Isaiah 55.1)." Is that an invitation to anyone that does not thirst?

56. Does Christ call goats in order to make them sheep, or does He call His own sheep by name (John 10.3)?

57. (a) Could the apostle Paul have been faithful, had he not obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful (1 Corinthians 7.25)? (b) Having obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful, could the apostle Paul, or anyone else, be otherwise than faithful?

58. If your flesh and blood actions got any individual turned from Hell to Heaven, would you say that the flesh profiteth NOTHING (John 6.63)?

59. Doesn’t the "soul-winning" system make one’s "new birth" dependent on one’s brother, rather than one’s Father?

60 . Where is there a scriptural example or precept to teach anyone to pray for the salvation of the wicked, or to pray for sinners to be born again?

[melted]

That's great! I saved it for future reference and fun.


60 . Where is there a scriptural example or precept to teach anyone to pray for the salvation of the wicked, or to pray for sinners to be born again?
Romans 10:1 comes to mind:
Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

[Brandan Kraft]

Why is it assumed this is eternal salvation? I believe Rom. 10:1 is referring to salvation in a temporal sense. There were awful calamities and judgments that were about to be poured out on Jerusalem in 70AD. If he is praying for their conversion or temporal salvation, then he is obviously not praying for all of Israel, but the remnant according to the election of Grace (Rom 9:27). He's not praying for their eternal salvation, but the conversion of the elect in general.

[lionovjudah]

That's great! I saved it for future reference and fun.


Romans 10:1 comes to mind:
Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.


Brandan. THe infallible interpreter says melted has a good point. Paul speaks of BOTH, praying for their salvation, while also believing that God hardened them.

What is salvation in the temporal sense? Agaain, since Paul did nto know who was part of the remnant, he prayed for them. I mean, was every memebr of every church or assembly that Paul spoke to an elect child of God? Impossible. Paul prayed all the time, I do not see him clarifying whom he prayed for.

Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved.

"them" is a reference to Israel, the great majority of whom had rejected the Lord and were thus in a lost condition. The fact of Paul's praying for Israel is instructive, especially in view of Paul's belief of Gods Sovereignty which had predicted their stumbling on Christ, as mentioned at the end of chapter 9.

Paul's prayer was to the effect that Israel should believe the gospel, not that they should be saved in unbelief. This is very key to praying for ones salvation.

THis is supported by Gill:
prayer to God for Israel [was], that they might be saved;
not only that they might be saved in a temporal sense, from these grievous calamities and sore judgments he saw were coming upon them, which he had reason to believe would issue in the destruction of them, as a nation and church; but that they might be spiritually converted, turned from their evil ways, and brought to believe in Christ, whom they had despised and rejected, and so be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: this he might desire not only from a natural affection for them, but as a minister of the Gospel, who cannot but wish that all that hear him might be converted and saved; and as a believer in Christ he might pray for this in submission to the will of God; and especially as he knew there was a seed, a remnant according to the election of grace, at that present time among them, that should be saved, though the larger number of them were cast off. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read "for them", instead of "for Israel"; not naming them, being easily understood; and so the Vulgate Latin and Syriac versions.


He knows their plight because their condition was his own condition prior to his conversion. His desire for their salvation is reflected in his going to the Jews first (Ac13:46; 18:5, 6 Ro1:16) Paul does not rejoice that they have stumbled over the stumbling stone (Ro9:32). Paul’s heart’s desire also translated into action: prayer to God for Israel. Paul didn’t just "care," he prayed!


Calvin:

We here see with what solicitude the holy man obviated offenses; for in order to soften whatever sharpness there may have been in his manner of explaining the rejection of the Jews, he still testifies, as before, his goodwill towards them, and proves it by the effect; for their salvation was an object of concern to him before the Lord, and such a feeling arises only from genuine love. It may be at the same time that he was also induced by another reason to testify his love towards the nation from which he had sprung; for his doctrine would have never been received by the Jews had they thought that he was avowedly inimical to them; and his defection would have been also suspected by the Gentiles, for they would have thought, as we have said in the last chapter, that he became an apostate from the law through his hatred of men.


THis one is for Harald.. lol

Romans 10:1


Desire (eudokia (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2107)). No papyri examples of this word, though eudokhsiv occurs, only in LXX and N.T., but no example for "desire" unless this is one, though the verb eudokew (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2106) is common in Polybius, Diodorus, Dion, Hal. It means will, pleasure, satisfaction (Matthew 11:26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+11:26); 2 Thessalonians 1:11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2th+1:11); Philippians 1:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+1:15); 2:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=php+2:13); Ephesians 1:5,9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eph+1:5,9)).

Supplication (dehsiv (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1162)). Late word from deomai, to want, to beg, to pray. In the papyri. See Luke 1:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+1:13). It is noteworthy that, immediately after the discussion of the rejection of Christ by the Jews, Paul prays so earnestly for the Jews "that they may be saved" (eiv swthrian), literally "unto salvation." Clearly Paul did not feel that the case was hopeless for them in spite of their conduct. Bengel says: Non orasset Paul si absolute reprobati essent (Paul would not have prayed if they had been absolutely reprobate). Paul leaves God's problem to him and pours out his prayer for the Jews in accordance with his strong words in 9:1-5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+9:1-5).

[Brandan Kraft]

I totally disagree with Gill on this!

There is NO WAY - NO WAY that Paul truly desired to see all of Israel converted to the truth. NO WAY. This would clearly be against God's will. I do not desire to see all men converted to the truth. My desire is to see God's will carried out, and that includes the damnation of the wicked and the conversion of the righteous.

Do you want to see the whole world saved? Shame on you! Christ didn't save the whole world. How dare you pray for something that goes clearly against God's will. (I'm not talking to a particular person here, just giving a sermon). It is blasphemous to wish for the salvation of everyone in my opinion!!!!

Brandan

[lionovjudah]

I totally disagree with Gill on this!

There is NO WAY - NO WAY that Paul truly desired to see all of Israel converted to the truth. NO WAY. This would clearly be against God's will. I do not desire to see all men converted to the truth. My desire is to see God's will carried out, and that includes the damnation of the wicked and the conversion of the righteous.

Do you want to see the whole world saved? Shame on you! Christ didn't save the whole world. How dare you pray for something that goes clearly against God's will. (I'm not talking to a particular person here, just giving a sermon). It is blasphemous to wish for the salvation of everyone in my opinion!!!!

Brandan


Well obviously Paul and every commentary I have read feel differently. Including myself. How is it praying against Gods will to have Him save people you care about?


Christ came to save sinners. So if He saves you and I, He can save anyone.

God saving and damning is not our business Brandan, that is His alone. David
Also prayed for Israel. Many did. How do we know who the enemies of God are and that they wont be converted?

Anyway, Paul said it. That is good enough for me. No need for me to shape his inspired words to fit my systematic. It is plain as day. Unless of course, it does not mean what it says...:D :D

Show me one NT example of anyone desireing to see the wicked damned and rejoicing over it. Just one.

[lionovjudah]

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh. Romans 9:1-3


What does Paul say here Brandan? Deep within the soul of this man of God lay a burden a great sorrow, a continual grief. Horror of horrors, he was saved, but his brethren were not.

Perhaps you do think Paul was lying when he said that his concern for the lost meant more to him than his relationship with Jesus. Maybe he had no fear that all liars would have their part in the lake of fire. Perhaps he had no concern that in bearing false witness, he would transgress the Ninth Commandment, for which Ananias and Sapphira where swiftly struck dead in their crooked tracks. Of course, we can’t be the judge as to whether or not Paul was telling the truth in Christ, that his conscience was bearing witness in the Holy Spirit, but there certainly is evidence of his care for the salvatiion of his brethren.


Moses said a similar thing when he asked that God would cut him out of the book of life, rather than judge Israel.

In light of these thoughts, I don’t know how anyone can call himself a Christian and not have concern for the lost. Charles Spurgeon said, "Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that." He continued, "The saving of souls, if a man has once gained love to perishing sinners and his blessed Master, will be an all-absorbing passion to him. It will so carry him away, that he will almost forget himself in the saving of others. He will be like the brave fireman, who cares not for the scorch or the heat, so that he may rescue the poor creature on whom true humanity has set its heart. If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for."

Hell should be so real to us that its flames burn away apathy and motivate us to warn the lost. Do we see the unsaved as hell’s future fuel? Do we understand that sinful humanity is the anvil of the justice of God? Have we ever been horrified or wept because we fear their fate? The depth of our evangelistic zeal will be in direct proportion to the love we have. If you are not concerned about your neighbor’s salvation, then I am concerned for yours.

[Brandan Kraft]

I only want God's chosen people to come to a knowledge of Christ. I guess that makes me a damnable heretic according to Spurgeon!

[Brandan Kraft]

Well obviously Paul and every commentary I have read feel differently. Including myself. How is it praying against Gods will to have Him save people you care about? Do you want to see the whole world saved? I don't. What about those already in hell? Do you think Paul wanted to see those in hell saved? I certainly would like to see my loved ones who are unaware of Christ to come to a knowledge of Him as certainly knowing Him has brought great joy to my heart, and I'd like to see them have this joy as well.


Christ came to save sinners. So if He saves you and I, He can save anyone. Christ DID save sinners. He saved me. He saved a lot more people too. But the phrase, "He can save anyone" is unbiblical. Either He did or didn't. He's finished saving.


God saving and damning is not our business Brandan, that is His alone. David Also prayed for Israel. Many did. How do we know who the enemies of God are and that they wont be converted?They were praying for people they perceived as brethren as they were in a covenant community.


Anyway, Paul said it. That is good enough for me. No need for me to shape his inspired words to fit my systematic. It is plain as day. Unless of course, it does not mean what it says...:D :D Rom 9:1-3, (KJV), I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Your scriptural passage has proven the point that Paul desired to see some of his brethren (of the flesh) come to a knowledge of Christ, but he also knew that this would not happen for all of Israel. I think further study is needed on these verses, but at most I would concede he was interested in his covenant family (elect) - not the entire gentile world or all of Israel for that matter.


Show me one NT example of anyone desireing to see the wicked damned and rejoicing over it. Just one.Rev 19:1-3, (KJV), And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: (2) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. (3) And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

God's people in heaven will be rejoicing over the damnation of the wicked, and I hope to be singing along with them!

[Mickey]

Do we have any recorded events of Christ praying for the world or desiring for everyone in a particular demographic to be saved?

or

Do we have any recorded events where Christ prayed only for the elect?

[Brandan Kraft]

Jn 17:9, (KJV), I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

[lionovjudah]

Do you want to see the whole world saved? I don't. What about those already in hell? Do you think Paul wanted to see those in hell saved? I certainly would like to see my loved ones who are unaware of Christ to come to a knowledge of Him as certainly knowing Him has brought great joy to my heart, and I'd like to see them have this joy as well.


Please do not assume I mean I pray for those in hell Brandan. This is extreme and not at all the case of Paul


Christ DID save sinners. He saved me. He saved a lot more people too. But the phrase, "He can save anyone" is unbiblical. Either He did or didn't. He's finished saving.

This is obviously your new "pet doctrine". It is semantics. In fact Paul spoke of past present and future tense of Salvation




Rom 9:1-3, (KJV), I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Your scriptural passage has proven the point that Paul desired to see some of his brethren (of the flesh) come to a knowledge of Christ, but he also knew that this would not happen. I think further study is needed on these verses, but at most I would concede he was interested in his covenant family - not the entire gentile world.

This was Israel he prayed for. i never said the whole world. Just like I pray for my brethren. The key is of the flesh. Paul was not thinking elect or not here. OF the flesh enforced that


Rev 19:1-3, (KJV), And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: (2) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. (3) And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

God's people in heaven will be rejoicing over the damnation of the wicked, and I hope to be singing along with them!


This is different that praying while here on earth Brandan

[lionovjudah]

Do we have any recorded events of Christ praying for the world or desiring for everyone in a particular demographic to be saved?

or

Do we have any recorded events where Christ prayed only for the elect?


Then Paul contradicts Christ. Anyway Mike, this reasoning is weak at best. For like Brandan said, we are not Christ. He knows His sheep, we do not. So again this is out of context.


Stick with Romans 9 and Romans 10. Dont move to another that supports an imagined command. One does not need to read John when studying Romans 9,10. And is it not ironic that Romans 9 Paul speaks of Gods Sovereignty in salvation as clear as day, but yet feels responsible to pray for his brethren. Those that have been cut off. Why would you even consider anything other than what it plainly teaches?


Paul who spoke more of electing grace, also represents an evangelical zeal. And this is no paradox!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lionovjudah]

There will always be this kind of objection that Paul was facing here: people will say, like you and Mike "You cannot feel real grief over the lost if God chooses freely and unconditionally whom he will save." Paul knows this is an objection, and all he can do here is say: I really grieve over Israel, and I really believe that God is sovereign over who is saved and who is not. So again if it was not a problem for him, why for you?

The fruit of Paul’s anguish for his brethren who are accursed and cut off from Christ is to desire their salvation and to pray for them to be saved. Romans 10:1, "Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation."

I will not follow the reasonings of skeptical men here. Don’t say: There is no reason to pray for sinners if God is sovereign to save. Say instead, Because God is sovereign to save, I will pray for sinners with hope. Because Paul prayed for their salvation, I will pray. Because I have grief and anguish in my heart, I will pray. And as it says in 2 Timothy 2:25, "God may perhaps grant them repentance."

Paul had no hatred for anyone. He loved those who hated him.

1 Cor. 4:12, 13, “Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it; being defamed, we entreat.”

At that time when he was a prisoner through their malice, and stood before king Agrippa, and Agrippa said, “Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian;” and his blood-thirsty enemies were standing by; he replied, “I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.” He wished that his accusers, and those who had bound themselves with an oath that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed him, had all of them as great privileges and as much of the favor of heaven as himself.

When the Jews took him in the temple, though they behaved themselves more like devils than men, he addressed them in terms of high respect, “Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence:” calling the common Jews his brethren, and saluting the elders and scribes with the title of fathers, though they were a body of infidels. So when he pleads his cause before Festus, a heathen governor, he gives him the title that belonged to him in his station; calling him, “Most noble Festus.”


Hoeksema speaks clearly also:


We must not, however, misunderstand this strong expression of Paul's. He cannot mean, of course, that as a Christian he could wish for any man's sake that he had no part with Christ, that he were still in his sin, that he were still a natural and wicked man, that he belonged to the enemies of Christ. That would be spiritually impossible. And that would imply a wicked desire. But, in the first place, he speaks according to the flesh to his brethren, who are his kinsmen according to the flesh. He is related to them, and his natural love and pity for them is expressed in these words. And secondly, the apostle is not considering the ethical and spiritual side of the matter, but is rather thinking of the joy of salvation and strongly desiring that all his brethren might share in that joy. He says that he could wish to lose it, to forfeit salvation from that viewpoint for his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh.

And looking at it in this light, this passage is very important for us.

First of all, let us note that the apostle's attitude in approaching the tremendous subject of God's absolute sovereignty in election and reprobation is intended by the Word of God as an example for us. When, as children of God, we approach this subject, and speak of God's sovereign predestination, it is but proper that our attitude should be deeply spiritual. It may not be, it could not possibly be the attitude of pride and self-exaltation; for if it pleased God to ordain us unto salvation in distinction from others, it certainly is no cause for us to boast in self. One who really understands the truth of this point will humble himself deeply before God. Let no flesh glory in His Presence. And this also implies that one cannot very well speak of the subject of God's sovereign rejection of the reprobate, who in time are our fellow men, our kinsmen according to the flesh, without feeling to an extent the same heaviness, the same continual sorrow for them which the apostle here so emphatically declares to feel in his heart. No cold-blooded rejoicing in the damnation of our fellow men may characterize our contemplation of God's sovereign dealings with the children of men. The fact that God's predestinating purpose divides our race, makes separation between men of the same flesh and blood, always remains a matter of suffering as long as we are in this present time. And this leads me to another remark. From the viewpoint of our flesh, of our earthly, natural life and relationships, it is not so strange, - barring some theological objections, - to hear the apostle declare that he could wish to be accursed from Christ for his kinsmen according to the flesh. Without wishing to place ourselves on a par with the apostle, we may safely say that, in a degree, we can often repeat these words after him. Just imagine a parent who experiences the grief of seeing one or more of his children walk the way of sin and destruction. Just imagine a pastor, who, in the course of years becomes attached to his flock and earnestly desires their salvation, but who beholds many of them that are not the objects of God's electing love. And what is true of our own flesh and blood in the narrowest sense of the word and of the Church of Christ in the world in general can be applied to mankind as a whole. Out of one blood God has made the whole of the human race, and they are, according to the flesh, all our brethren. And we can understand a little, at least, of the attitude of the apostle when he speaks of the great heaviness that burdens his soul and says that he could wish to be accursed from Christ for his kinsmen according to the flesh. And in as far as we could wish in our present flesh and blood, we could indeed desire all men to be saved. What then? Shall we hide and corrupt the truth of God's sovereign predestination from purely carnal and humanistic considerations? God forbid We believe the Word of God according to the Scriptures, and in them we trust. And that Word teaches us plainly that God is the Lord, even in regard to the salvation of His own and the damnation of the rest. Even though for a time this antithesis means suffering according to the flesh, by faith we are of the party of the living God, consecrated to Him and to His glory, and are confident that when all the suffering of this present time is past, God will justify Himself, and all flesh shall confess His everlasting righteousness in the damnation of the reprobate as well as in the salvation of the elect. Soli Deo Gloria!


So yes, this does need more study. AS it stands now, I am completely satisfied with the words of Paul, and others that speak of Pauls desire for the salvation of his brethren and heathens.....


Joe

[Robert R. Higby]

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Rev. 2:26,27



From Rev. 2, the promise is that not only Christ will rule over the wicked (reprobate) nations with a rod of iron. His people will also, as he gives them this power. So the torments of the damned (whatever they might be) are not only administered by Christ but also by the saints. The attitude toward the reprobate: "Alleluia, Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" (19:3)

The only attitude by the saints toward the reprobates should be celebration of their downfall and retribution. We are not to pray for them, feel sorry for them, or desire their salvation--even as Christ does none of theses things.

There is no difference between praying for someone now in hell and a reprobate not yet in hell. In God's estimation both are the same. Even so, Christ specifically says that he does not pray for the world. We should not either.

We pray that God will gather his elect out of the world. Paul's prayers for Israel were specifically for the ELECT of Israel according to God's grace in election; to say that he prayed for reprobate Jews is disgraceful.

Like Jesus, we are not to pray for the world of reprobates. Of course, that world is a general entity to us when it comes to those now alive. It is not specific names or souls, for we know not who the elect and reprobates are. We are to pray for the salvation of God's elect. It is entirely improper, however, to pray for the salvation of someone presently unconverted unless we also defer to God's election or otherwise of that person. :cool:

[lionovjudah]

We pray that God will gather his elect out of the world. Paul's prayers for Israel were specifically for the ELECT of Israel according to God's grace in election; to say that he prayed for reprobate Jews is disgraceful.

Like Jesus, we are not to pray for the world of reprobates. Of course, that world is a general entity to us when it comes to those now alive. It is not specific names or souls, for we know not who the elect and reprobates are. We are to pray for the salvation of God's elect. It is entirely improper, however, to pray for the salvation of someone presently unconverted unless we also defer to God's election or otherwise of that person. :cool:

This still avoids exactly the examples of Paul Bob. And the few commentators i mentioned. Paul expressed a want for Agrippa and his cohorts. I do not know where one can even venture upon your understanding when Scripture says otherwise. Again, since we know not who they are, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong for us to pray that GOD SAVES THEM. Please deal with the texts presented and not some systematic. If I am wrong I will repent, but I believe the Scriptures are plain as day

[Mickey]

Then Paul contradicts Christ. Anyway Mike, this reasoning is weak at best. For like Brandan said, we are not Christ. He knows His sheep, we do not. So again this is out of context.


Stick with Romans 9 and Romans 10. Dont move to another that supports an imagined command. One does not need to read John when studying Romans 9,10. And is it not ironic that Romans 9 Paul speaks of Gods Sovereignty in salvation as clear as day, but yet feels responsible to pray for his brethren. Those that have been cut off. Why would you even consider anything other than what it plainly teaches?


Paul who spoke more of electing grace, also represents an evangelical zeal. And this is no paradox!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joe, so are you telling me that you believe these scriptures are telling us that Paul while understanding that God does not save everyone, he (Paul) desires that God will save them anyway? And so from that 'example' you claim exists in scripture you are going to mirror this 'zeal' without knoweledge and pray that God save those who he has predestined to hell because you have some type of 'feeling' toward everyone in the world? The desire of God's children should be for God's will to be done. Not to figure out who is elect and whos not, not to blanket pray for the world because whe know the truth. Your examples of Paul do not back up your rantings, but they do provide a convincing argument on how to not pray without your mind.

[Robert R. Higby]

No scriptures have been presented that state that Paul prayed for specific INDIVIDUALS to be saved in an 'unconditional' fashion. Of course he wanted the salvation of those whom he preached to and felt certain hopes toward specific persons. In the same manner that we do toward our family members.

The context is the entirety of Rom. 9-11 which deals with the election of the remnant of Israel according to grace. Paul's prayer is that Israel not be cast aside in the manner of those nations or peoples that God 'gives up' to a reprobate destiny, based on the promise and covenant to Abraham and the Patriarchs. For those who read more into it than that, I believe their exegesis is to be thrown out--it is based on snippets and not the whole of scripture.

[lionovjudah]

Joe, so are you telling me that you believe these scriptures are telling us that Paul while understanding that God does not save everyone, he (Paul) desires that God will save them anyway? And so from that 'example' you claim exists in scripture you are going to mirror this 'zeal' without knoweledge and pray that God save those who he has predestined to hell because you have some type of 'feeling' toward everyone in the world? The desire of God's children should be for God's will to be done. Not to figure out who is elect and whos not, not to blanket pray for the world because whe know the truth. Your examples of Paul do not back up your rantings, but they do provide a convincing argument on how to not pray without your mind.


I still do nto understand how you can view these scriptures in ANY OTHER light than what is presented.

First of all, I am not at all taking this to the extreme and saying Paul was praying for every single sperm egg creation in the world. He was a Jew, He is praying for the Jews. And I am exactly saying that Pauls prayers, his heartfelt longing, his love for his brethren is what motivates these prayers. All the while knowing God is Sovereign. These are not rantings Mike. WHat else am I to provide other than Scripture itself, and commentaries upon them by Sovereign Grace believers? So Gill, Calvin, Henry, Hoeksema, Spurgeon, Huntington, Owen, all these men are wrong with me also then.


Joe

[Robert R. Higby]

Spurgeon Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that." He continued, "The saving of souls, if a man has once gained love to perishing sinners and his blessed Master, will be an all-absorbing passion to him. It will so carry him away, that he will almost forget himself in the saving of others. He will be like the brave fireman, who cares not for the scorch or the heat, so that he may rescue the poor creature on whom true humanity has set its heart. If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for."

Hell should be so real to us that its flames burn away apathy and motivate us to warn the lost. Do we see the unsaved as hell’s future fuel? Do we understand that sinful humanity is the anvil of the justice of God? Have we ever been horrified or wept because we fear their fate? The depth of our evangelistic zeal will be in direct proportion to the love we have. If you are not concerned about your neighbor’s salvation, then I am concerned for yours.

I have never read anything more unbiblical than this. There is not a single passage of scripture to support the preaching of hell as a 'means' of evangelism or as motive for the saved to preach to their neighbors. This is typical evanjellyfish poppycock. R.C. Sproul once stated, "I wouldn't wish a minute in hell on my worst enemy." Bud David the Psalmist said, "Oh God kill 'em!"

I have true concern for the salvation of all of God's elect. I also have hopes for certain individuals to be saved and pray for them. I teach the gospel (but not 'hell-evangelism' avoiding the subject of election) hoping that God will use it for his glory. But I don't share Spurgeon's view of the reprobate world, I don't believe Christ--who refused to pray for it--shared it either. :cool:

[Brandan Kraft]

So Gill, Calvin, Henry, Hoeksema, Spurgeon, Huntington, Owen, all these men are wrong with me also then.Yes indeed!

[lionovjudah]

No scriptures have been presented that state that Paul prayed for specific INDIVIDUALS to be saved in an 'unconditional' fashion. Of course he wanted the salvation of those whom he preached to and felt certain hopes toward specific persons. In the same manner that we do toward our family members.

The context is the entirety of Rom. 9-11 which deals with the election of the remnant of Israel according to grace. Paul's prayer is that Israel not be cast aside in the manner of those nations or peoples that God 'gives up' to a reprobate destiny, based on the promise and covenant to Abraham and the Patriarchs. For those who read more into it than that, I believe their exegesis is to be thrown out--it is based on snippets and not the whole of scripture.

Well I forgot the number one lesson, which is: When a scripture obviously, clearly speaks of something contrary to what the 4 people here believe, you must be reading it out of context.

I personally, as well as others I have read, do not need to see Paul saying, I pray for Joe, Mike, Peter, Marie, Donna..... He just prayed. One thing is for certain, He NEVER rejoiced in the damnation of people.

Again I will post what HH has said:

No cold-blooded rejoicing in the damnation of our fellow men may characterize our contemplation of God's sovereign dealings with the children of men.

I will stick with this myself. Obviously you would NEVER say as Paul that you would rather be accursed of God, cut off, for the salvation of the ones you love.

Again unless this means something different than what it says. OR Paul was lying.

[lionovjudah]

Yes indeed!

Then I am very comfortable in their comapny then Brandan. No disrespect.

[Brandan Kraft]

Joe, I don't care what HH says. I am thankful that God is crushing His enemies - the wicked. I don't want them to be saved as God does not want them to be saved. I want my will to be always conforming to His will! Not the other way around.

Hallelujah, the smoke of her rises forever and ever! Amen!

[Brandan Kraft]

Then I am very comfortable in their comapny then Brandan. No disrespect.
Well I'm glad you're comfortable. After all, we wouldn't want to be uncomfortable, now would we?

[Robert R. Higby]

I will stick with this myself. Obviously you would NEVER say as Paul that you would rather be accursed of God, cut off, for the salvation of the ones you love.

This is a mistranslation of the Greek. If interpreted in this way, this would mean that Paul argues with God's sovereign purpose in saving Paul's own soul.

"I could wish" or "I might wish" is a hypothetical insertion and is not expressing a burning desire of Paul that he be damned in order to save other reprobates. This would go against everything in his own gospel preached throughout the rest of his epistles.

Paul's appeal to God is that his own salvation is not complete without the salvation of the rest of the elect of Israel. He doesn't want to keep the plunder or spoils of the gospel to himself, he wants to share it! :cool:

[lionovjudah]

I will stick with this myself. Obviously you would NEVER say as Paul that you would rather be accursed of God, cut off, for the salvation of the ones you love.

This is a mistranslation of the Greek. If interpreted in this way, this would mean that Paul argues with God's sovereign purpose in saving Paul's own soul.

"I could wish" or "I might wish" is a hypothetical insertion and is not expressing a burning desire of Paul that he be damned in order to save other reprobates. This would go against everything in his own gospel preached throughout the rest of his epistles.

Paul's appeal to God is that his own salvation is not complete without the salvation of the rest of the elect of Israel. He doesn't want to keep the plunder or spoils of the gospel to himself, he wants to share it! :cool:

I agree that Paul knew he could not be a scarafice for his brethren. But the emotional zeal, the true love he shows is still present. Who mistranslated it? Desire, wish, is the same thing. He had no prblem sharing the Gospel with everyone he spoke to, and prayed earnestly in HOPE that God alone in His Sovereign purpose would convert them to believers. If you notice I wrote earlier that Paul did not ask for their conversion while remaining in unbelief.

[Robert R. Higby]

John Gill on Rom. 9:3:

"Many have thought that his meaning is, that he had so great a value for them, that he could even wish himself, and be content to be eternally separated from Christ, everlastingly banished from his presence, never to enjoy communion more with him, or in other words, to be eternally damned, that they might be saved. But this is what could never be, and which he knew, was impossible to be done, and was contrary to that strong persuasion he had just expressed in the close of the foregoing chapter. Nor is it consistent with his love to Christ, to wish any thing of this kind; it would make him to love the Jews much better than Christ; since, according to this sense, he must wish to be parted from him, that they might be saved, and consequently must love them more than Christ: nor is it consistent with, but even contrary both to the principles of nature and grace; it is contrary to the principles of nature, for a man to desire his own damnation upon any consideration whatever; and it is contrary to the principle of grace, which always strongly inclines to be with Christ, and not separated from him; in a word, to be accursed from Christ in this sense, could be no proper means of the salvation of the Jews, and therefore it cannot be thought to be desirable, or wished for. Some things are said indeed for the qualifying of this sense of the words, as that the apostle said this inconsiderately, when he was scarcely himself, through an ecstasy of mind, and intemperate zeal, and an overflow of affection for his nation; but this is highly to reflect upon the apostle, and to represent him in a very unworthy manner, when it is certain he said this with the greatest deliberation and seriousness; he introduces it in the most solemn manner, with an appeal to Christ, the Holy Spirit, and his own conscience, and therefore it could never drop from him through incogitancy, and an overheated affection. Again, it is said, that this wish was made with a condition, if it was the will of God, but that he knew was not; or if it could be for the good of these people, this also he knew it could never be: the best qualification Of it is to say it is an hyperbolical expression; and so if it is, it must be with a witness, being such an hyperbole, as is not to be matched in sacred or profane writings. The words of Moses are thought to be a parallel one, "blot me, I pray thee, out of the book which thou hast written", (Exodus 32:32 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ex+32:32)) ; but that is not to be understood of the book of eternal life; but either of the book of the law, as R. Sol. Jarchi expounds it, which God had ordered him to write, and his desire is, that his name might not stand there; or rather of the book of this temporal life, that he might die and not live. It remains then that these words must have another meaning. Now let it be observed, that the word (anayema) , here translated "accursed", answers to the Hebrew word (Mrx) , which, with the Jewish writers, is one sort of excommunication in use among them, and the greater sort; the forth of it, as given by them, is very horrible, and shocking F18 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=ro&chapter=009&verse=3#r); (See Gill on John 9:22 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=joh&chapter=9&verse=22)); and so we may observe the word "anathema" here used is mentioned as a form of excommunication in (1 Corinthians 16:22 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1co+16:22)) (Galatians 1:8,9 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ga+1:8,9)) ; of all such as love not Christ and his Gospel, and make it appear by their principles or practices, or both, that they do not, and so ought to be removed from the communion of churches. Now, taking the word in this sense, the apostle's meaning is, that he could wish to be excommunicated from Christ; that is, from the body of Christ, from the church of Christ, Christ mystical, as the word "Christ" is used, (1 Corinthians 12:12 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1co+12:12)) ; to be deprived of the ordinance of Christ's house, to be degraded from his office in it, and not to be so much as a member in it. He saw that these branches, the people of the Jews, were going to be cut off, and no longer to be of the church of God; and such was his affection to them, that he could have wished rather to be cut off himself, that they might be spared; and this was an instance of great love to them, since, next to Christ, the church and the ordinances of it were exceeding dear unto, and highly valued by the apostle. Again, it is worthy of observation, that the Hebrew word (Mrx) , which the Septuagint render by (anayema) , the word in the text, is used for any thing devoted to God, and which could not be alienated to any other use or service; and if it was a man, or any among men that was devoted, it was not to be redeemed, but was "surely to be put to death", (Leviticus 27:29 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=le+27:29)) . Some have thought that Jephthah's daughter was put to death upon this law; but be that as it will, the apostle here may reasonably be thought to allude unto it, and his sense be this, that he could wish himself (anayema einai apo tou cristou) , "to be devoted unto death", not from Christ, but "by" Christ; and some copies read (upo) , "by": I could wish that my dear Lord and Master, as if he should say, would appoint and order me to die, might this nation of mine but escape that ruin and destruction I see is coming upon them, as a nation and a church; I could be content to die the most accursed death, and be treated in the most ignominious manner, might they but be saved; a like expression is that of R. Ishmael {s}, (Ntrpk yna larvy ynb) "may I be an expiatory sacrifice for the children of Israel";





``which (says one commentator F20 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=ro&chapter=009&verse=3#t)) he said, (Ntbx Kwtm) , "because of his love to them"; and it is as if he should say, all the punishment which is right to come upon them, I will take it on myself, in order to atone for them;''



and says another F21 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=ro&chapter=009&verse=3#u),




``the sense is, he took upon him their redemption, and this he said, (wtbha bwrl) , "because of the greatness of his love":''



now for a man to die for his country, that a whole nation perish not, was agreeably to the sentiments both of Jews and Gentiles, and was the highest instance of love among men; "greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends", (John 15:13 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=joh+15:13)) ; and this is carrying the sense of the apostle's wish high enough, and not too far. The persons on whose account he could have expressed this wish, are described by their natural relation to him, my brethren, my kinsmen, according to the flesh:

he calls them his brethren, not in a spiritual sense, nor in a strict natural sense, but in a general way, as being of the same nation: it is a saying with the Jews F23 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=ro&chapter=009&verse=3#w), (Myxa larvy lk) , "all the Israelites are brethren"; for the same reason he calls them kinsmen; and these appellations he uses to remove that ill will and prejudice they had conceived in their minds against him, and to signify the ground of his affection for them: and he adds, "according to the flesh", to distinguish them from his spiritual brethren and relations; for though they were brethren in a national sense, they were not all so in a spiritual relation."

[lionovjudah]

Bob, what you wrote is not contrary to what i have said.

As I pointed out earlier, Gill also said this:

prayer to God for Israel [was], that they might be saved;
not only that they might be saved in a temporal sense, from these grievous calamities and sore judgments he saw were coming upon them, which he had reason to believe would issue in the destruction of them, as a nation and church; but that they might be spiritually converted, turned from their evil ways, and brought to believe in Christ, whom they had despised and rejected, and so be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: this he might desire not only from a natural affection for them, but as a minister of the Gospel, who cannot but wish that all that hear him might be converted and saved; and as a believer in Christ he might pray for this in submission to the will of God; and especially as he knew there was a seed, a remnant according to the election of grace, at that present time among them, that should be saved, though the larger number of them were cast off. The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read "for them", instead of "for Israel"; not naming them, being easily understood; and so the Vulgate Latin and Syriac versions.

[L-Today]

Knowing Joe a bit by now, I don't think that he means that we should pray like this: ''God Almighty, please save all people whether they are elect or reprobate.'' He follows what Paul is expressing - apostle's obvious pain for God's chosen people who are perishing in their unbelief. If there was a man who knew God's sovereign predestination of all things, it was Paul, and yet in ''this body of death'' it was not given even to him to know with certainty who is and who is not elect. What if persecuted by Saul of Tarsus early Christians decided that he exhibits all the signs of a reprobate, cursed him and celebrated his coming punishment? Silly would they look after his conversion, won't they? But if they prayed for God's will to prevail in their sufferings, and that maybe it was the Lord's will to convert even this, in all appearances awful enemy of God, then they won't look so silly when he became the greatest of Jesus Christ's apostles.

Absolutely - we'll celebrate the judgment upon God's enemies when we are in heaven, and every child of God is doing it now already. The point is that in these bodies of death we cannot know who is predestined to which place, and that is why our Lord Jesus told us parables like the one of tares among the wheat in Mt 13.24-30. And that is why Paul addressed the churches as the beloved in the Lord, although not everyone in them was elect, and that is why he tells us to ''bless them which persecute you'', not knowing whether these persecutors are elect or reprobate.

Spurgeon's idea of holding reprobates by their flaming ankles on the brink of hell - I can't recall Biblical teaching like that. But I agree with Herman Hoeksema's view on Paul's anguish over Jewish nation, remembering also admonition in Ro11.18 -''boast not against the branches'', clearly commanding us not to gloat in our limited flesh over things we do not know very well yet.

We know that our God and His Christ will be glorified manifestly, before the whole universe, both by His mercy upon the elect, as well as by His judgment on all His enemies. Of course, a child of God prays always for God's will to be done, for all God's friends to prevail here and now, and for all His enemies to perish - today and forever! Generally - yes, and it is our constant prayer and uppermost desire. But individually we don't know living and not yet dead reprobates with absolute certainty (in some cases it is obvious though) in order to rejoice over their personal demise, although we are not allowed to grieve over the reprobates already in hell, nor over reprobates in a general sense.

When we are praying for the salvation of others, we are Biblically allowed and encouraged to cry, plea and beseach God ceaselessly and persistently (Lk 18.1), not knowing whether it is His will to save these people or not. It does not mean that we are praying against God's Will but simply that we don't know what exactly is predestined for these people, although our main joy remains forever that God's Will is done and not ours. Our Savior Himself praised people for their pleadings, although He knew that they can't differentiate elect from reprobate. It is apparent that to pray for people's salvation not knowing their final destination is Biblical and good, but to pray for reprobates as such, or for something which we surely know is against God's will is very bad.

So I agree with Joe and Herman Hoeksema on this one, although I strongly diagree with people who are preaching and praying as if it is their wills that should prevail and not God's, and as if salvation arrives thanks to their efforts. But then I am ready and willing to learn and so am looking forward to further postings on this subject.

Luba.

[Robert R. Higby]

Luba: Knowing Joe a bit by now, I don't think that he means that we should pray like this: ''God Almighty, please save all people whether they are elect or reprobate.

Well, I certainly hope and believe that you are right. But evidence of this has certainly not been given in what has been posted in this thread. All reasonable evidence would suggest otherwise.

[lionovjudah]

Luba: Knowing Joe a bit by now, I don't think that he means that we should pray like this: ''God Almighty, please save all people whether they are elect or reprobate.

Well, I certainly hope and believe that you are right. But evidence of this has certainly not been given in what has been posted in this thread. All reasonable evidence would suggest otherwise.


Read closer Bob please. IF Luba can see it so should you. Shes a woman and can...lol (again teasing Luba) Thanx for teh support.

All I am doing is following scripture for what it says paul did. thinking no more no less. So your evidence should be looked at under a differnt set of lenses.

To think farther than that goes beyiond because of a systematic. See I dont harp and dwell on the damnation of the reprobate at all, and neither did Paul clap as some seem to do

[foundinHim]

Bob , you object to Spurgeon's desire that souls be saved . You call his quote the most unbiblical thing you have seen , or words to that effect . You must not get out often . If you want to encounter heresies , serious ones abound . Was Spurgeon sinning when he said that ? Was Edwards evil to have preached his " Sinners in the hands of an angry God " ? He was warning people to flee the wrath to come . Was he unrighteous to do so ? Yes , the Lord has determined all those who shall enter His kingdom . But as warm , loving , caring , saved , individuals we should indeed have the passion to see the unregenerate come into vital union with the Lord Jesus Christ . I do not understand a cold , calculating Christian who looks at eternal beings without yearning to see them come into the kingdom of God . Yes , even if some of them do not come and that it was foreordained that they would not come . God has planted this desire in authentic Christians . We are not all that we should be in that endeavor -- but if that aspect of a believer's walk is absent -- I fear for the soul of that professing Christian . Would an early Christian recognize such a " believer " as a brother or sister in the Lord ?

A theological and spiritual heir of Spurgeon was A. W. Pink . The latter quoted him quite a lot . They stood on virtually the same ground . There is a booklet of Pink's called " Eternal Punishment " . Near the end of it he says :

What has been before us ought to stir up all of God's people to a deepened sense of their duty . Fellow-christian , have you no obligations toward your godless neighbors ? If God has made clear these solemn truths to you , does it not deepen your responsiblity toward the unsaved ? If you have no love for souls , it is greatly to be feared that your own soul is in imminent danger . If you can witness , unmoved , to men and women hurrying down the broad road which leadeth to destruction , than it is seriously to be doubted if you have within you the Spirit of that One who wept over Jerusalem . It is true you have no power of your own to save a soul from death , but are you faithfully giving out that Word which is the instrument which God uses to bring souls from death unto life ? Are you supplicating God as you ought and depending on Him to bless your efforts to point the lost to the Lamb of God ? Are you as fervent as you should be in your cries to God on behalf of the lost ?

[Brandan Kraft]

It seems that a lot of "calvinists" have been infected with a disease called "modern evangelism". I see a new blog entry coming!

[Mickey]

"This guy said this," "This guy said that..." FIH, you must not read your Bible very much. I think you spend too much time trying to figure out what guy you are going to quote here next. Try laying off that a bit and reading your Bible then you might see what those here are talking about. Your smug statements about being cold hearted and calculating verses a loving and warm only show that you are a novice Bible student and have been blinded by exactly what Branded said, 'modern evangelism.' Your hybrid Calvinism is what causes your confusion on this matter. No one here avoids opportunity to proclaim the gospel; we proclaim it whenever we get the chance. However, your approved style of coercion and manipulation is not biblical and it is not the gospel. That, we do not proclaim instead we condemn it.

[lionovjudah]

"This guy said this," "This guy said that..." FIH, you must not read your Bible very much. I think you spend too much time trying to figure out what guy you are going to quote here next. Try laying off that a bit and reading your Bible then you might see what those here are talking about. Your smug statements about being cold hearted and calculating verses a loving and warm only show that you are a novice Bible student and have been blinded by exactly what Branded said, 'modern evangelism.' Your hybrid Calvinism is what causes your confusion on this matter. No one here avoids opportunity to proclaim the gospel; we proclaim it whenever we get the chance. However, your approved style of coercion and manipulation is not biblical and it is not the gospel. That, we do not proclaim instead we condemn it.

Mike: zThe question is not that you proclaim it, I believe you do, the question is how do you proclaim it? For instance, would you ever be able to proclaim a message without refering to Gods Predestination of the wicked to eternal torment and the elect will have a pep rally in heavan?

Would you be able to take a text, without refering to Gods decrees?

A minister of the word weeps over the lost. He has a truley heartfelt concern for them. Not a boasting. Again Paul, as Luba mentioned in Romans 11, warns about this,
Rom 11:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=11&verse=18&version=kjv)Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=11&verse=19&version=kjv)Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[/url]
Rom 11:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Rom&chapter=11&verse=20&version=kjv)Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Rom&chapter=11&verse=21&version=kjv)For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=11&verse=22&version=kjv"]Rom 11:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Rom&chapter=11&verse=22&version=kjv)Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


And the example of the pharisse and publican dismiss ANY and ALL type of joy over "Not being like them" (reprobate)

And again what about the examples Christ gives about the towers falling in Luke 13?

It is not to be our concern to determine that it happenned because of some decree or judgement on the reprobate. Christ just says "Repent or ye shall like wise parish. Do you think they were worse sinners or you are better than them in any way?"

So again Mike, this is not mindless praying or concern. It is supported by Scripture. There are many.

Look at Matthew, a tax collector, Jesus calls him. DOnt you think the apostles were ticked? He was in the most hated position to the jews. And again as Luba mentioned Saul of Tarsus.

According to what you present, you would have been one of those who would have denied his calling. So basically and clearly we just do not know. If God sends you to someone who you assume is reprobate, to tell him he has been chosen, you, me anyone would respond as Anias did. "Are you kidding me Lord, he has been your enemy, you should crush him and let me celebrate his destruction.


Joe

[Robert R. Higby]

Responses to FIH:

Bob , you object to Spurgeon's desire that souls be saved .

Ridiculous, I stated no such thing. I object to Spurgeon's view of evangelism and how he views the lost world. I earnestly desire and pray for:
1. The salvation of all God's elect in the lost world who are now sheep but as yet ungathered.
2. The salvation of specific souls whom the Lord has given me a burden for. However, being finite I cannot pray for these without deferring to God's sovereign election (I realize that God might prove in the end that he has elected them as reprobates).

You call his quote the most unbiblical thing you have seen , or words to that effect . You must not get out often . If you want to encounter heresies , serious ones abound .

Well, it is as unbiblical as any other false teaching among those who profess Christ and Calvinism (the teachings of others beyond that are in another category altogether, as you suggest). I'll agree with you and admit that 'most unbiblical' was an emotional over-statement.

Was Spurgeon sinning when he said that ?

In my estimation, most definitely. Such teachings are destructive of faith because they give God's people a warped perspective on the Lord's character and purposes.

Was Edwards evil to have preached his " Sinners in the hands of an angry God " ? He was warning people to flee the wrath to come . Was he unrighteous to do so ?

A thousand times, YES! His view of the 'wrath to come' speculated a thousand times beyond the scriptures. Plus his view of the wrath of God is infralapsarian and based on 'eternal law' philosophy. It is stoic, not rejoicing. These views of Spurgeon and Edwards have the saints mourning over the tortured wicked for eternity (if their logic is consistently applied). An unbiblical cosmology is about as bad a false doctrine as any I can think of.

Yes , the Lord has determined all those who shall enter His kingdom . But as warm , loving , caring , saved , individuals we should indeed have the passion to see the unregenerate come into vital union with the Lord Jesus Christ .

I do, those who are the Lord's elect sheep! I am not more loving and caring than God, who hates the reprobate. Among those alive today, I don't know who the reprobates are--but I know they are among us in very large numbers--and like Christ, the Psalmist, and Paul (who said 'their condemnation is just') I hate them and rejoice in their destruction. Do I not hate those who hate thee, O God? I hate them with a perfect hatred, I count them mine enemies. (Ps. 139)

I do not understand a cold , calculating Christian who looks at eternal beings without yearning to see them come into the kingdom of God . Yes , even if some of them do not come and that it was foreordained that they would not come .

I do not want eternal beings to be saved who were positively predestined to an opposite purpose and destiny for God's glory. If I did, I would be blaspheming the Lord's sovereignty and right to accomplish what he pleases.

God has planted this desire in authentic Christians . We are not all that we should be in that endeavor -- but if that aspect of a believer's walk is absent -- I fear for the soul of that professing Christian .

To desire to see the whole world saved, including those whom God does not want to save; this is from the flesh and not the Spirit. It is arguing with the Lord's sovereign plan.

Would an early Christian recognize such a " believer " as a brother or sister in the Lord ?

No comment; the question is based on false premises.

A theological and spiritual heir of Spurgeon was A. W. Pink . The latter quoted him quite a lot . They stood on virtually the same ground . There is a booklet of Pink's called " Eternal Punishment " . Near the end of it he says :

What has been before us ought to stir up all of God's people to a deepened sense of their duty . Fellow-christian , have you no obligations toward your godless neighbors ? If God has made clear these solemn truths to you , does it not deepen your responsiblity toward the unsaved ? If you have no love for souls , it is greatly to be feared that your own soul is in imminent danger . If you can witness , unmoved , to men and women hurrying down the broad road which leadeth to destruction , than it is seriously to be doubted if you have within you the Spirit of that One who wept over Jerusalem . It is true you have no power of your own to save a soul from death , but are you faithfully giving out that Word which is the instrument which God uses to bring souls from death unto life ? Are you supplicating God as you ought and depending on Him to bless your efforts to point the lost to the Lamb of God ? Are you as fervent as you should be in your cries to God on behalf of the lost ?

There are certainly elements of truth in this but it is also distorted; the issues have already been covered where it is right and wrong. :cool:

[Robert R. Higby]

It looks like Brandan will beat me to it in the blogs. However, I am composing something on evangelism from the book of John vs. that of evan-jelly-fish-ism.

[Brandan Kraft]

Thanks Bob - you ansered FIH perfectly. I agree with everything you've written here!

[lionovjudah]

Brandan, here is another question I would like to address.

Whom does God seek--His servants, or Satan’s servants? (Psalm 119.176)

I believe He seeks servants of satan. I am not talking about a backslider as David speaks in 119.



As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. (Ephesians 2:1-3)

Because of God's great love for us, God did something. Not we, but God. God made us alive in Jesus when we were dead in our sin. God showed us love when we were filled with hatred towrds him.

God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

God took us servants of Satan, servants of our sinful nature and loved us as if we were servants of Jesus Christ

Paul is saying that it's not just that we once were without God, it is that we were also actively against God.
What a description of how we once were - 2 Cor.4:4; Eph.4:17-19.
And of course, as we lived in the dominion of darkness we were also under the power and authority of Satan, the prince of Darkness. He is a liar and a murderer, and the empty, futile lives of his subjects are those which are subject to degradation, selfishness, bitterness and death. And we too once lived in such a state. Ignorant of our condition, wallowing in the mire of our sin, reaping the wages of our disobedience.


Acts 26:18 NIV) to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.(Col 1:13-14 NIV) For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

[lionovjudah]

HC states...


Question 5. Canst thou keep all these things perfectly?
Answer: In no wise; (a) for I am prone by nature to hate God and my neighbour.(b)

(a) Rom.3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Rom.3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom.3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (b) Rom.8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Eph.2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Tit.3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. Gen.6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen.8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. Jer.17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Rom.7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[Brandan Kraft]

Comment on my latest blog entry: http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?p=33551#post33551

[Mrs. Gill]

Ah, harsh indeed-haha but true....I can't tell you how many times I have witnessed exactly what you are talking about from "sovereign gracers." I have heard the finished work of Christ in the pulpit, then the same person turning around and pleading with someone to "understand, or listen." Believe me, I am not perfect(you of all people know this, Darth, but you better not say it-hahaha j/k), and I find myself with disgusting arminian(fleshy) thoughts about the gospel, only to feel guilty about it and repent, but it is truly amazing to see this sort of evangelism going on in so called sovereign grace places. As I have said many times before to Darth and Bill Twisse, you think you have a lot of common ground with these folks, then all of the sudden they start in with Common grace, duty faith, infra stuff, etc. and you realize that they are really not believing in an ALL sovereign God. Why are people so afraid to say things like "God predestined the reprobate to go to hell?" Simple statement to me. If people that believe this stuff would only take it to it's logical conclusion they would see the fallicy and awfulness of it . It "creates" a weak God. But most hold to paradox anyway, so they don't care about conclusions.....
Darth, and Bill-thanks for your thoughts on paper. Please keep posting the blogs-they are the best part of the forum-Well, their up there, anyway.

[lionovjudah]

Brandan, you write a very intriguing article. "Soul winning" is not the function of those who minister the word to people. It is not a "contest" of who has had more people walk the aisle and say a sinners prayer. Predestination should neither deter a minister from proclaiming the truths of Christs mission, nor deter ANYONE from believing on Christ.

I will firstly admit, at times you appear to be a modern day John Ryland, who offered a mean, unscriptural rebuke to the young William carey, when Carey expressed his decision to go to India.

Ryland said this most dispicable thing:

Young man, sit down; when God pleases to convert the heathen, He will do so without your help or mine.


I know your love for our Lord is tremendous, your zeal for His glory is second to none, and rightly so.

But other times you may be perceived living in an isolated barren dessert, offering no hope unles someone knows they have BEEN SAVED, or elect.

I do not believe what you are critical of is evangelism, but the message presented. This all started with the way Finney presented his message and this is where we have ended up. A clear departure from Historical evangelism of the reformation.

Thos who embrace this false message are holding on to a false hope. There is way too much reliance on the will of man, and an emotional appeal to get saved.

I believe the question is not reaching the lost, but reaching them with the correct message but also not being hair splitters inhow a person responds.

If a person came up to you and said: Brandan, your message was awesome, and all the glory goes to God. I know that I did nothing for my salvation and it is all because of His eternal Love for me. In fact there is nothing I can do to keep my salvation. So from now on I am deciding to follow Christ and walk in this newness of life.

Would you be distraught at the word "decided?"

[Brandan Kraft]

I have read that William Carey "prayed down a spirit of missionism". What unbiblical nonsense is that!? How appropriate for Ryland to rebuke Carey for this! Ryland's assertions were absolutely correct. We cannot help God convert anyone. He will do it without our help.

What's funny is Ryland's famous words used against him were really in response to Carey's "manifesto" - An Enquiry into the Obligations of Christians to use Means for the Conversion of the Heathens (http://www.grace.org.uk/mission/enquiry0.html).

What kind of book title is that! Gag me with a spoon! If I was there in that meeting, I'd stand with Ryland and tell that fool Carey to sit down also.

[lionovjudah]

I have read that William Carey "prayed down a spirit of missionism". What unbiblical nonsense is that!? How appropriate for Ryland to rebuke Carey for this! Ryland's assertions were absolutely correct. We cannot help God convert anyone. He will do it without our help.

What's funny is Ryland's famous words used against him were really in response to Carey's "manifesto" - An Enquiry into the Obligations of Christians to use Means for the Conversion of the Heathens (http://www.grace.org.uk/mission/enquiry0.html).

What kind of book title is that! Gag me with a spoon! If I was there in that meeting, I'd stand with Ryland and tell that fool Carey to sit down also.

Well then I was correct in asserting that.

Ryland was wrong Brandan. God does use men as means.

I plant, you water, BUT God provides the increase.

Carey was a blessed man who was well used by God.

And Careys message was not decisional salvation.

Paul also wrote to Timothy about his imprisonment, knowing Gods purpose would be glorified, but also knew the Gospel would not be stopped because he was in prison.

Christ also rebuked the jews and said, "IF they be silent, these stones will speak"

When one as carey or anyone states "help", if the mean instrument, there should be no arguement whatsoever.

Unless they are mystically converted.Can He do it without human means? OF course he can, but does He? Not very often. I have yet to hear of anyone who woke up one day converted by some mystical operation of the spirit.

[lionovjudah]

Paul had this attitude, and it motivated him to do all things to see the elect saved: “This is my gospel, for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained. Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory” (2 Tim. 2:8-10). Paul risked his life to preach the gospel precisely because he believed in election. And when he was discouraged at the lack of success of his missionary enterprises, God encouraged him with the words, “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:9-10). This cannot mean that there were many Christians in this city, because only a few had believed. What God meant was that there were many people in that city whom he had chosen – who would come to faith when they heard the gospel. Paul’s belief in election was what moved him to carry on his missionary endeavors when the entire situation seemed helpless.

[Brandan Kraft]

Well then I was correct in asserting that.

Ryland was wrong Brandan. God does use men as means.No, He uses the Holy Spirit as the means of converting His people to the Gospel message. Carey was asserting that men throw all their money together and create missionary societies for the conversion of the heathen. This is totally unbiblical. The Gospel goes out via Gospel preachers - not organizations or monetary institutions.


I plant, you water, BUT God provides the increase.I do not see myself as a planter - but a vessel of God's Grace.


And Careys message was not decisional salvation.Carey was a died-in-the-wool fullerist who believed in the sufficiency of the atonement for all mankind. He believe the Gospel was "worthy of all acceptation" and believed it was every man's duty to be saved by exercising faith. If that's not decisionalism, I don't know what is.


Unless they are mystically converted.Men are not mystically converted. They are converted through revelation of propositional truth. This is a work of the Spirit. Gospel preachers simply throw this truth out there by preaching or publishing. They are not the means by which men are converted as Carey suggested.

[ray kikkert]

Well obviously Paul and every commentary I have read feel differently. Including myself. How is it praying against Gods will to have Him save people you care about?

Joe, in reading this chapter God through Paul is revealing that salvation is for all believers. It is clear the believer is God's chosen elect vessel. This is tunnel vision Joe. Romans 10 consists of 21 verses and is in conformity to the rest of God's revealed Word. The vessel Paul is not praying against the Lord's will, he is part and parcel that will.



Christ came to save sinners. So if He saves you and I, He can save anyone.

Correction. Christ came to atone and save elect sinners, His chosen people. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Judging from this thread, it would be wise to clarify.



God saving and damning is not our business Brandan, that is His alone. David
Also prayed for Israel. Many did. How do we know who the enemies of God are and that they wont be converted?

God's saving and damning is very much our business as He seen fit to reveal the working of such in His eternal counsel through His Word. We , as David do not pray with a view to glorify ourself, we pray to glorify His Name, and He has taught us to pray " Forgive us our trespasses , as we forgive those who have trespassed against us" just as much as He taught us to pray " Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" . We obey out of love for the Lord and our neighbour this prayer in honesty.



Anyway, Paul said it. That is good enough for me. No need for me to shape his inspired words to fit my systematic. It is plain as day. Unless of course, it does not mean what it says...:D :D

Yes this vessel inspired by God put the Word of God to paper, alongside the rest of His counsel in Scripture. That whole counsel is used to form a confession by the believer. Every heretic does so with "a" verse.



Show me one NT example of anyone desireing to see the wicked damned and rejoicing over it. Just one.

Consider, among others, the words of the Lord in John 17, consider our Saviour's prayer to His and our Father. "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
"Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy Word is truth"

While you are at it , maybe check out how Gill or Calvin would commentate on this whole chapter as chapter 10 of Romans to defend your exegetical insight to this matter.

[lionovjudah]

Joe, in reading this chapter God through Paul is revealing that salvation is for all believers. It is clear the believer is God's chosen elect vessel. This is tunnel vision Joe. Romans 10 consists of 21 verses and is in conformity to the rest of God's revealed Word. The vessel Paul is not praying against the Lord's will, he is part and parcel that will.



While you are at it , maybe check out how Gill or Calvin would commentate on this whole chapter as chapter 10 of Romans to defend your exegetical insight to this matter.

Ray I have checked them out and posted their comments in this thread.

The fact remains is Paul prayed for their salvation, while also knowing all of Israel would nto be saved. That is as far as I am going. I need not look any further or speculate why Paul did it, other than it is written he did prayed. And Every once in a while a scripture can stand on its OWN merit, without looking elsewhere to "prove" it does not mean what it says.


Again, Paul can hold onto both, praying for his brethrens salvation, saying he wished he could be cut off from Christ for their salvation, together with knowing it is up to God anyway. WHy cant you and others Ray?

I do not see this as any concern thats needs to "fit" with any whole council.

Calvin, Luther, Gill, Henry, Huntington, Pink, Hoeksema support this as well.

Again, why must I reconstruct what the word plainly says? This does not injure God nor cause a paradox.

Paul also prayed for Agrippa and his men who wanted to kill him.

[ray kikkert]

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh. Romans 9:1-3
What does Paul say here Brandan? Deep within the soul of this man of God lay a burden a great sorrow, a continual grief. Horror of horrors, he was saved, but his brethren were not.

Perhaps you do think Paul was lying when he said that his concern for the lost meant more to him than his relationship with Jesus. Maybe he had no fear that all liars would have their part in the lake of fire. Perhaps he had no concern that in bearing false witness, he would transgress the Ninth Commandment, for which Ananias and Sapphira where swiftly struck dead in their crooked tracks. Of course, we can’t be the judge as to whether or not Paul was telling the truth in Christ, that his conscience was bearing witness in the Holy Spirit, but there certainly is evidence of his care for the salvatiion of his brethren.
"Many indeed doubt whether this was a lawful desire; but this doubt may be thus removed: the settled boundary of love is, that it proceeds as far as conscience permits; 3 (http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol38/htm/xiii.htm#_fnf3) if then we love in God and not without God's authority, our love can never be too much. And such was the love of Paul; for seeing his own nation endued with so many of God's benefits, he loved God's gifts in them, and them on account; of God's gifts; and he deemed it a great evil that those gifts should perish, hence it was that his mind being overwhelmed, he burst forth into this extreme wish. 4 (http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol38/htm/xiii.htm#_fnf4)

Thus I consent not to the opinion of those who think that Paul spoke these words from regard to God only, and not to men; nor do I agree with others, who say, that without any thought of' God, he was influenced, only by love to men: but I connect the love of men with a .zeal for God's glory."
"Ut ad aras usque procedat." Ainsworthgives a similar phrase and explains its reason, "Usque ad aras amicus -- As far as conscience permits," Gell., because in swearing they held the horns of the altar. -- Ed.
4 (http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol38/htm/xiii.htm#_fnb4) Most of those who take this view of the passage express the implied condition more distinctly than is done here. They have regarded the wish in this sense, "I could wish were it right or law fid." So thought Chrysostom, Photius, Theophlylact, Luther, Parcus, Beza, Estius, Lightfoot, Witsius, Mode, Whitby, and others. The words of Photius are given by Wolfius, "lie says not, I wish to be separated, but I could wish, that is, were it possible -- hjuco>mhn a}n tout ejstin eij dunato<n h+n," Stuart and Hodge adopt the same view. "It was a conditional wish," says Pareus, "like that of Christ in Matthew 26:39 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Matthew+26:39,). Christ knew and Paul knew that it could not be granted, and yet both expressed their strong desire." See Exodus 32:32 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Exodus+32:32,). editor"

Calvin's commentary-Romans 9




Moses said a similar thing when he asked that God would cut him out of the book of life, rather than judge Israel.

I recall this Joe, but could you supply the chapter and verses peratining to this?



In light of these thoughts, I don’t know how anyone can call himself a Christian and not have concern for the lost. Charles Spurgeon said, "Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then you are not saved yourself. Be sure of that." He continued, "The saving of souls, if a man has once gained love to perishing sinners and his blessed Master, will be an all-absorbing passion to him. It will so carry him away, that he will almost forget himself in the saving of others. He will be like the brave fireman, who cares not for the scorch or the heat, so that he may rescue the poor creature on whom true humanity has set its heart. If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for."

Hell should be so real to us that its flames burn away apathy and motivate us to warn the lost. Do we see the unsaved as hell’s future fuel? Do we understand that sinful humanity is the anvil of the justice of God? Have we ever been horrified or wept because we fear their fate? The depth of our evangelistic zeal will be in direct proportion to the love we have. If you are not concerned about your neighbor’s salvation, then I am concerned for yours.


Christ has taught us "Love thy neighbour as thyself" and stated (Matt.22) that these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Christ fulfilled this law for the elect alone. Thus we are zealous in preaching this Word of the Lord in gratitude to Him for what He has done. What we do not do is turn His Word into blaspheny in making it a well meant offer of salvation for all without exception. For the love of the neighbour we preach His Word, His Word is truth and a sharp two edged sword, it will go out and not retunr void, it will fulfill it's purpose and is steadfast and will stand.

[lionovjudah]

I recall this Joe, but could you supply the chapter and verses peratining to this?

Exodus 32 I believe. It was right after the golden galf incident.





Christ has taught us "Love thy neighbour as thyself" and stated (Matt.22) that these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Christ fulfilled this law for the elect alone. Thus we are zealous in preaching this Word of the Lord in gratitude to Him for what He has done. What we do not do is turn His Word into blaspheny in making it a well meant offer of salvation for all without exception. For the love of the neighbour we preach His Word, His Word is truth and a sharp two edged sword, it will go out and not retunr void, it will fulfill it's purpose and is steadfast and will stand.

Neither am I turning this into a well meant offer. All I am saying is Paul prayed for his brethren, and we should do the same. He prayed for their salvation and be converted from unbelief.

While also knowing it is Gods work alone

[ray kikkert]

I still do nto understand how you can view these scriptures in ANY OTHER light than what is presented.

First of all, I am not at all taking this to the extreme and saying Paul was praying for every single sperm egg creation in the world. He was a Jew, He is praying for the Jews. And I am exactly saying that Pauls prayers, his heartfelt longing, his love for his brethren is what motivates these prayers. All the while knowing God is Sovereign. These are not rantings Mike. WHat else am I to provide other than Scripture itself, and commentaries upon them by Sovereign Grace believers? So Gill, Calvin, Henry, Hoeksema, Spurgeon, Huntington, Owen, all these men are wrong with me also then.


Joe

It is clear from Romans 9 and 10 Joe that the vessel Paul hopes for the salvation of the believer. All the related theologians presented would have to submit and be subservient to the definition that the believer is the elect, regardless of their pleas to the contrary wherever they are found.

But you seem to be stuck on the vessel Paul. Fine. Then I would admonish you to read 1st and 2nd Timothy and what God through this vessel had to say to Timothy , you , me .... et al. You shall then see that it was not his hearts desire that every Israelite or Gentile should be saved, but for those who believe.

[L-Today]

It IS SINFUL to pray: ''our Lord God, please have mercy upon the reprobate.''
It is GOOD and RIGHT to pray for the elect sheep only to be gathered by our Good Shepherd, and for the reprobates and all forces appointed for destruction to perish. Our Lord Jesus Christ did not pray for the world and nor should we.

Now:

Does the commandment ''Love your neighbour'' include praying for this neighbour? - at all times God's will alone be done?

When we ''bless them which persecute you: bless and curse not'', do we abstain from praying for them while blessing them?
Mt 5.44 ''. . . bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and PRAY for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;'' - what if these ''despiteful users'' for whom we are told to pray happen to be reprobates?

Paul was praying ceaselessly for the churches in his epistles - were all people in all the churches elect without exception?

When Steven cried out, ''Lord, do not hold this sin against them'', in Acts 7.60, was he sure that all ''them'' were saved?

The desire of a true Christian is God's will and so he cannot pray against it. But is it sinful to follow ''perfect and upright'' Job and pray for our ''feasting'' children as he did? God never stopped Job from this activity, nor did He stop Abraham praying for Ishmael although the father of our faith was clearly told that the boy is not the son of promise. Nor did Jesus Christ forbade people asking for their children, servants, friends, etc.

The thing is - we do not know God's will concerning specific people, which persons might very well turn out to be reprobates after all - what if Job's children were reprobates? and yet he prayed and sacrificed for them diligently and God counted him ''perfect and upright''? Of course, no Christian can pray: ''Lord God, whether my child (friend, etc) is reprobate or not, I am asking you to still save him.'' We don't pray like this, but we are encouraged throughout the Bible to humbly pray for other people, GLADLY surrendering our requests to God's will. Please, brothers and sisters, explain what is wrong with such a view - I am all attention.

Luba.

[Brandan Kraft]

Amen Luba. I pray for my loved ones to come to a knowledge of the truth. If I knew they were reprobate though, I'd pray for them to be damned. Praise the Lord that I do not have this knowledge at this time. My desire is that if they are elect, they will come to love the truth at His appointed time! :D

Brandan

[ray kikkert]

Ray I have checked them out and posted their comments in this thread.

The fact remains is Paul prayed for their salvation, while also knowing all of Israel would nto be saved. That is as far as I am going. I need not look any further or speculate why Paul did it, other than it is written he did prayed. And Every once in a while a scripture can stand on its OWN merit, without looking elsewhere to "prove" it does not mean what it says.

Scripture does indeed stand on it's own merit. Verse one the Lord states his desire that Israel might be saved. In this same chapter the Lord lays out clearly that it is the believer that will be saved and this through faith. To say that the Lord would desire the salvation of all Israel in Paul's prayer is to contradict this same chapter and the whole counsel of God.
So not "every once and awhile" Joe, but "each and every time" by faithful exegetical work of the whole counsel of God , proves what in fact it means.




Again, Paul can hold onto both, praying for his brethrens salvation, saying he wished he could be cut off from Christ for their salvation, together with knowing it is up to God anyway. WHy cant you and others Ray?

Well that would be Joe because as you say Scripture means exactly what it says. Salvation is for the elect. God's desire and purpose is to save the elect. Now, with regards to this "cut off from Christ" statement, rather than reinvent the wheel of exegesis, look at how some faithful saints rendered this as commentary. To which I referred to Calvin earlier and thus why I had asked you to also consider the words of the names you mentioned and there insight so as to render as sound definition from such counsel. I would refer you to those statements of Calvin which I did attach to my previous post.


I do not see this as any concern thats needs to "fit" with any whole council.

That is disconcerning Joe. One should always in honesty and truth square Scripture with Scripture or as stated "the whole counsel of God".


Calvin, Luther, Gill, Henry, Huntington, Pink, Hoeksema support this as well.

Again, why must I reconstruct what the word plainly says? This does not injure God nor cause a paradox.

Paul also prayed for Agrippa and his men who wanted to kill him.

The Lord's Word to us is clear that we pray for those who despitefully use you , and persecute you. That we may be children of our Father which is in heaven Matt 5:45

John Gill's commentary
and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you. What Christ here commands and advises to, he himself did; for as he hung upon the cross, he prayed for his crucifiers, who were then using him in the most despiteful, as well as cruel manner; saying, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do": and in this he has left us an example, that we should tread in his steps; and here in he was quickly followed by his holy martyr Stephen; who, whilst he was being stoned, prayed for his persecutors and murderers, saying, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". This breathes out the true spirit of Christianity, and is peculiar to it. The whole of this is directly opposite to the tenets of the Jews, particularly the Scribes and Pharisees; who allowed of revenge, and keeping anger against any person that had done them an injury, as has been observed: and which were also the sentiments of the Karaites, or Scripturarians, another sect among them who kept to the letter of the Scriptures, and rejected the traditions of the elders, which the Pharisees held: but in this they agreed with them,

"that it was right to do good to their friends, and to forgive them that asked pardon of them; but to such men who rendered evil, and did not return to do well, that they might receive forgiveness, Mhm rwjnlw Mwqnl rwoa
wnya, "it is not forbidden to revenge, and to keep anger against them" {s}.''

It is indeed said {t} of their former holy men, Mydyox, "Hasideans", which some have thought to be the same with the "Essenes", and a sort of Christians; however, were a better sort of Jews; that these

"heard their reproach, but did not return it; and not only so, but they pardoned him that reproached them, and forgave him.''

And it is reported of these men, that they used to pray to God to pardon and forgive all that disturbed them. But the Pharisees, whom Christ had to do with, and against whom he inveighs, were men of another complexion.

{s} R. Eliahu in Adderet, c. 3. apud Trigland. de Sect. Karaeorum, c. 10. p. 166, 167. {t} Maimon. Hilch. Talmud Tora. c. 7. sect. 13.


Matthew 5:45 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Matthew/5.html#45)

Ver. 45. That ye may be the children of your father,.... Not that any became the children of God, by doing things in imitation of him: for as in nature no man becomes the son of another by imitating him, or by doing the things he does but either by birth, or by adoption; so in grace no man becomes a child of God by the works he does, as a follower of God, but by adopting grace; and which is discovered in regeneration. Christ's meaning is, that they might appear, and be known to be the children of God, by doing those things in which they resemble their heavenly Father; and which are agreeable to his nature and conduct; as the tree is known by its fruit, and the cause by its effect: for where adoption and regenerating grace take place, the fruit of good works is brought forth to the glory of God. Some copies, instead of uioi, "children", read omoioi "like": and accordingly, the Persic version renders it thus, "that ye may be like your Father, which is heaven". Our Lord seems to have respect to the Jews, often having in their mouths this expression, Mymvb wnyba, "our Father which is in heaven"; and to their frequent boasting that they were the children of God; and therefore he would have them make this manifest by their being like him, or acting in imitation of him;"

........To which I concurr considering Chapter 6 the Lord teaches us how to pray, why to pray..... et al.

[Robert R. Higby]

This is my first use of the quick reply so bear with me!

Immediately after the verses we have been discussing as the basis of this thread (Rom. 9:1-5), Paul established forever the basis of his prayers for the salvation of Israel in 9:6-13. The situation with Israel is a parable of the situation with the whole human race. Not all of Israel ARE Israel; only the children of promise--the children of the flesh are damned. There is no way what Paul was focusing AT ALL on the children of the flesh in his prayers for Israel to be saved.

Following that observation, in vs. 14ff is the most glorious passage in all of scripture teaching double predestination!

[L-Today]

Brandan, thank you very much for answering some my questions:

''Amen Luba. I pray for my loved ones to come to a knowledge of the truth. If I knew they were reprobate though, I'd pray for them to be damned. Praise the Lord that I do not have this knowledge at this time. My desire is that if they are elect, they will come to love the truth at His appointed time!''

Very true, brother, but where are we told to pray for our loved ones only? What do we do with not particularly loved by us neighbours, or with our persecutors? Are we commanded to pray for them at all or not? And if we are to pray for them, what exactly are we to ask God concerning these people? Shouldn't our desire for the non-loved ones be, as you so wisely wrote ''that if they are elect, they will come to love the truth at His appointed time!'' - the same as for our loved ones?

I don't think that there are many Christians on this forum who would ever dream of praying for God to reverse His decree of reprobation, at least not the ones who love and rejoice in our God's sovereignty. Nor are there many here who would want to argue with God as to his reason for electing some and reprobating others. So, on this matter it looks as if we are all of one mind: we love every aspect of our God's predestination; we love all God's friends and are praying daily that our Lord's children prevail; and we hate God's enemies and are praying daily that the forces of darkness perish. Even though we know that it will exactly be so - God's Will, of course, was, and is and will be done, for it cannot be otherwise, we are still told to pray for these things to manifest themselves.

This is the PRINCIPLE for prayers in our flesh-and-blood bodies in which we are still existing in this field where both wheat and tares are growing. Especially remembering that blessed rock-solid promise: ''he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'' (Lk3.17). We utterly trust the One with the fan to do the work of gathering and burning, while we cannot often differentiate with any degree of certainty who is to be gathered and who is to be burned with fire unquenchable.

That is what, it seems to me, is the gist of Joe's question: that we do not know who is who and yet, according to many Scriptural proofs, we are commanded to be merciful and compassionate to people and not wish their demise as such for we don't know whether they are the wheat or tares. No, we are not talking of being more merciful than God Himself, but in the ways that God has prescribed for the flesh-and-blood to exercise mercy on other flesh-and-blood creatures, we should obey Him. Yes, Paul did cry for Israel, and so did Moses, and so we do for our countries or for some groups of people - without ever challenging God's predestination. Why can't we do both - rejoice with David and Asaph (Ps 73) at the sure coming punishment of the enemies of God, and, at the same time, have compassion on human suffering?

When we read about beastly tortures and mutilations perpetrated by some people upon others, don't we freeze in horror and gut-pity for the victims? Is it pleasant to imagine that it is OUR dearly loved ones who are being raped and chopped with knives, or even inserted into a shredder for plastic - feet first? Can we then think: well, this loved one of ours was not converted and therefore let them have the punishment they deserve? Can we really? Of course, not. And so we should not and cannot rejoice when it happens to OTHER flesh-and-blood people, and I think it is OK for us to cry out of pity for the suffering flesh whoever they are. Which does not at all means that we are disputing God's predestination - ever.

Am I wrong in believing that even if we ask God - IF IT IS HIS WILL - to reveal His truth to some people, or groups of people, which we shall later find out to be chaff and not wheat, that God will hold such prayers against us? As Brandan wrote, praise the Lord that we don't have such knowledge at the time of prayers. So, I do believe that both Paul and Moses cried for their nations' salvation, same as we do cry, WITHOUT EVER wishing that God changes His mind and saves them whom He has apointed to destruction.

I think this is where the confusion lies: some ''professors'' do not believe that God has predestined everything, and their free-willism leads them into ''flesh only'' worldview. But we, who rejoice day and night in our God's predestination, better not fall into the opposite extreme and pretend that we are already in heaven with 20/20 vision. We are still in our bodies of death, still full of limitations, guesses, hopes, tears and hurts, even though some of us know that we are among the elect of God in Jesus Christ and are blessed by the gift of faith so that we believe and live by God's Truth in our Savior. We CAN both hate God's enemies waiting for the time of judgment to come, ''Even so, come, Lord Jesus'', and at the same time be compassionate and sorrowful over human demise and suffering.

As ever, waiting to be corrected and taught by our dear brothers and sisters.

Luba.

[Brandan Kraft]

Luba, we had a thread last year discussing this topic. You can read it here: http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=1747

[L-Today]

Brandan, thank you for the thread on prayers, and it is a very good and useful one. I was also interested in our mercy and compassion toward others when we don't know whether they are elect of reprobate. I never prayed one unqualified prayer for I consider them totally unbiblical. Nor am I ever praying that God saves reprobates. But I remembered how impressed I was by God's commands to us to be merciful. His prophets called continuously for mercy to widows and children.

Such question: is it wrong to feel compassion for people's pain not knowing whether they are elect or not? I understand that when we see people suffering, we are not to pray: ''Lord, please save these people.'' Of course not.

I can imagine it must be boring for you answering the same questions time and again. Sorry. I'll read more threads from before.

Thanks, Brandan.
Luba.

[Brandan Kraft]

Luba,

I believe we are to be kind toward all men. We do not know who the elect and reprobate are. By being good to men, if they are elect, we might have loved our brother even more. If they are reprobate, God will use this to further condemn them at the great judgment.

Brandan

[L-Today]

Thank you, Brandan.
Luba.

[foundinHim]

Paul the Soul Winner

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I am free with respect to all , I have made myself a slave to all , so that I MIGHT WIN MORE OF THEM .

John Gill says Paul might bring " many souls to Christ who otherwise must have been lost ... The ministers of the word are spiritual merchants , their traffic lies in the souls of men , whom they are studiously and anxiously careful to bring to Christ . "

1 Corinthians 9:20-23 To the Jews I became as a Jew , in order TO WIN Jews . To those under the law I became as one under the law ( though I myself am not under the law ) so that I MIGHT WIN THOSE UNDER THE LAW . To those outside the law I became as one outside the law ( though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law ) so that I MIGHT WIN THOSE OUTSIDE THE LAW . To the weak I became weak , so that I MIGHT WIN THE WEAK . I have become all things to all people , that I MIGHT BY ALL MEANS SAVE SOME . I do it all for the sake of the gospel , so that I may share in its blessings .

Paul really applied the admonition of " He that wins souls is wise . "

[Brandan Kraft]

foundinhim, Pauls "soul winning" methods were a lot different than most "calvinists". He preached the Gospel. Nothing else. Second, he was an apostle - the great commission was given to him and the other apostles - not all Christians.

He that winneth souls is wise - and indeed, Christ "won" souls on Calvary!

[ray kikkert]

Paul the Soul Winner

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I am free with respect to all , I have made myself a slave to all , so that I MIGHT WIN MORE OF THEM .

John Gill says Paul might bring " many souls to Christ who otherwise must have been lost ... The ministers of the word are spiritual merchants , their traffic lies in the souls of men , whom they are studiously and anxiously careful to bring to Christ . "

FIH, could you please send through the quotation from Gill here. This "otherwise must have been lost" business for the sake of clarity seems to forget about the sovereign purpose of God in this regard.
Also the text from 1 Corinthians 9:19, what translation is that from?


1 Corinthians 9:20-23 To the Jews I became as a Jew , in order TO WIN Jews . To those under the law I became as one under the law ( though I myself am not under the law ) so that I MIGHT WIN THOSE UNDER THE LAW . To those outside the law I became as one outside the law ( though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law ) so that I MIGHT WIN THOSE OUTSIDE THE LAW . To the weak I became weak , so that I MIGHT WIN THE WEAK . I have become all things to all people , that I MIGHT BY ALL MEANS SAVE SOME . I do it all for the sake of the gospel , so that I may share in its blessings .

Again, what translation is this from?


Paul really applied the admonition of " He that wins souls is wise . "

Where is the above quoted from the Word of God? "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel" verse 14

[foundinHim]

Ray , in the KJ Bible it says in Proverbs 11:30 , that " he who winneth souls is wise . "

Yes , in 1 Corinthians 9:14 Paul is talking about those in the business of proclaiming the gospel should get their living by the gospel . However , I believe that it lies with each of us , as Christians , to also proclaim the Word , not from a pulpit , but certainly we all should be engaged in extending the kingdom .

The translation I was using in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 was the NRSV . But I use many versions . Sometimes I use a combination when quoting . The NRSV has its share of demerits as does the KJ and every other version under the sun in any language . Actually my main Bible is the ESV . In many places it is very close to the NRSV because both were based on the RSV .

[lionovjudah]

After reading through the posts and Scripture the last few days, I am more certain than ever that Paul was sincere in his prayers. He did not live in the secret decrees of God and neither should we.

This past weekend I lived through a situation that shocked me but did not surprise me.

I visited a sick relative in the hospital. In the bed next to him was an elderly man who was dying of cancer. His minster was with him and I asked If he woudl like me to join them in prayer. He asked why? God has predestinated ALL things including this cancer and to pray for healing would go against Gods decrees. I asked him if his name was a member of 5 solas forum!!!! . He said no, his name with Jered. He had no clue why I asked but I just shook my head and told him he was wrong. Terribly wrong and I began to pray with my relative and the man dying with cancer. For God to bring him peace, mercy and recovery if possible. The minister told his congregant to just accept the lot God has cast for him. The person said, "Jered, with all due respect, the Lord is alive, not dead. He IS risen, He IS breathing, and until I find out that he is dead, I will pray forever.

So my point is this, if this man would pray for physical healing and peace, I will ALWAYS pray for spiritual healing and peace and not think for one second of the eternal decrees of God. Paul did not, Peter did not, James did not, John did not. I am firmly planted now because of your beliefs on the subject. I thank God for your presentation of what you believe because it has only strengthened my resolve to pray without ceasing!!!!!!!!!!!


Paul again KNEW all were not elect, but had the comapssion for all he spoke to, while also speaking of the eternal election of our Lord. I see no paradox nor confusion.

So the next time you are confronted with a situation like I was, think how you will respond.

Will you pray with the stranger for healing and peace and mercy? Or will you be as the cold minister who did not wanna "upset" our ALMIGHTY Lord, as if He needs to be protected by men such as Jered...


Joe

[ray kikkert]

After reading through the posts and Scripture the last few days, I am more certain than ever that Paul was sincere in his prayers. He did not live in the secret decrees of God and neither should we.

The Lord, using the vessel Paul did indeed live and taught of the sovereign decree of God. This does not negate the fact that Paul was sincere in his prayer, of course he was. As Scripture states, Paul was part and parcel to the sovereign good pleasure of God. Neither was the vessel silent regarding God's sovereign good pleasure.


This past weekend I lived through a situation that shocked me but did not surprise me.

I visited a sick relative in the hospital. In the bed next to him was an elderly man who was dying of cancer. His minster was with him and I asked If he woudl like me to join them in prayer. He asked why? God has predestinated ALL things including this cancer and to pray for healing would go against Gods decrees. I asked him if his name was a member of 5 solas forum!!!! . He said no, his name with Jered. He had no clue why I asked but I just shook my head and told him he was wrong. Terribly wrong and I began to pray with my relative and the man dying with cancer. For God to bring him peace, mercy and recovery if possible. The minister told his congregant to just accept the lot God has cast for him. The person said, "Jered, with all due respect, the Lord is alive, not dead. He IS risen, He IS breathing, and until I find out that he is dead, I will pray forever.

The two questions posed to Jered are outright idiotic. Why for the life of you, would you ask him such questions before praying with him?


So my point is this, if this man would pray for physical healing and peace, I will ALWAYS pray for spiritual healing and peace and not think for one second of the eternal decrees of God. Paul did not, Peter did not, James did not, John did not. I am firmly planted now because of your beliefs on the subject. I thank God for your presentation of what you believe because it has only strengthened my resolve to pray without ceasing!!!!!!!!!!!

It is obvious Joe you have totally misunderstood the points made, and you are dodging the issue with respect to the vessel Paul wishing the salvation of the believer.



Paul again KNEW all were not elect, but had the comapssion for all he spoke to, while also speaking of the eternal election of our Lord. I see no paradox nor confusion.

So the next time you are confronted with a situation like I was, think how you will respond.

Will you pray with the stranger for healing and peace and mercy? Or will you be as the cold minister who did not wanna "upset" our ALMIGHTY Lord, as if He needs to be protected by men such as Jered...


Joe

Your diatribe on who I pray and do not pray for is wasted, since I have already acknowledged that with regards to Matthew 5:44,45. I never stated we do not pray for the unbeliever, I stated that the Lord gives salvation and His desire is for the salvation of the elect alone. That fact alone Joe is humbling to us. Sure we pray that they may, as we, are convicted of sin, repent, and obey the Lord with a love He has first given us. We also know, His will "will" be done regardless. In the whole affair , it is the Lord who alone receives all the honor and glory throughout which ought to be forst and foremost.

I am quite surprised you do not see that in Luba's postings.

[Brandan Kraft]

I asked him if his name was a member of 5 solas forum!!!! . He said no, his name with Jered. You've got to be kidding me! We're not the only ones who rest in God's Sovereign Decree.

[lionovjudah]

The Lord, using the vessel Paul did indeed live and taught of the sovereign decree of God. This does not negate the fact that Paul was sincere in his prayer, of course he was. As Scripture states, Paul was part and parcel to the sovereign good pleasure of God. Neither was the vessel silent regarding God's sovereign good pleasure.



The two questions posed to Jered are outright idiotic. Why for the life of you, would you ask him such questions before praying with him?



It is obvious Joe you have totally misunderstood the points made, and you are dodging the issue with respect to the vessel Paul wishing the salvation of the believer.




Your diatribe on who I pray and do not pray for is wasted, since I have already acknowledged that with regards to Matthew 5:44,45. I never stated we do not pray for the unbeliever, I stated that the Lord gives salvation and His desire is for the salvation of the elect alone. That fact alone Joe is humbling to us. Sure we pray that they may, as we, are convicted of sin, repent, and obey the Lord with a love He has first given us. We also know, His will "will" be done regardless. In the whole affair , it is the Lord who alone receives all the honor and glory throughout which ought to be forst and foremost.

I am quite surprised you do not see that in Luba's postings.


That is good Ray, and that is what i do also. Not for a person to be saved IN unbelief, but be converted of He so pleases to enjoy the magnificent salvation of the Lord.

I only asked one question Ray.

The Minister told me we should not pray because God had decreed this man to have cancer. Now that is idiotic, not m question about being a member of 5 solas!!!!!!!!!

[lionovjudah]

You've got to be kidding me! We're not the only ones who rest in God's Sovereign Decree.

Why rest in the unrevealed? Why not rest in His reveled will?

Again answer m question Brandan. How or would you have prayed?

[Mickey]

You've got to be kidding me! We're not the only ones who rest in God's Sovereign Decree.

That brings the count to what...9?;)

[lionovjudah]

That brings the count to what...9.;)


What would your response have been to the idiotic statement made by the minister Mike?

"God decreed the cancer, and praying is going against His will"

Joe

[lionovjudah]

The Lord, using the vessel Paul did indeed live and taught of the sovereign decree of God. This does not negate the fact that Paul was sincere in his prayer, of course he was. As Scripture states, Paul was part and parcel to the sovereign good pleasure of God. Neither was the vessel silent regarding God's sovereign good pleasure.

He taught the Sovereignty of God Ray, He did not live in the secret mind of God.








It is obvious Joe you have totally misunderstood the points made, and you are dodging the issue with respect to the vessel Paul wishing the salvation of the believer.


What question Ray. I dodge nothing.

Was moses asking God to wipe his name out of the book thinking he only meant it for the elect?





Your diatribe on who I pray and do not pray for is wasted, since I have already acknowledged that with regards to Matthew 5:44,45. I never stated we do not pray for the unbeliever, I stated that the Lord gives salvation and His desire is for the salvation of the elect alone. That fact alone Joe is humbling to us. Sure we pray that they may, as we, are convicted of sin, repent, and obey the Lord with a love He has first given us. We also know, His will "will" be done regardless. In the whole affair , it is the Lord who alone receives all the honor and glory throughout which ought to be forst and foremost.

I am quite surprised you do not see that in Luba's postings.


Then we agree ray, this is all Paul was doing and moses.

[Mickey]

Praying or not praying isn't the issue. IMO it is the content of that prayer that matters. It is foolish to go on about what we think should happen or what God should do. The peace of Christ that passes understanding that Paul spoke of is the knowledge of Christ. Some don't have this so I guess they feel they need to tell God what they want otherwise it might not happen.

As far as this minister goes. I don't know him and I don't know if he would agree with what I just wrote. Prayer is a gift that only believers enjoy. It is worship and should be filled with thanksgiving. If someone desires peace then meditate on the truth. Don't ask God to sprinkle peace dust on you.

I can say for me that I have great peace and love resting in the knowledge of God's sovereignty. If someone else just can't rest in that, then thats all on them. My prayers rarely contain requests. They mostly consist of confessed sin and thanksgiving.

[ray kikkert]

That is good Ray, and that is what i do also. Not for a person to be saved IN unbelief, but be converted of He so pleases to enjoy the magnificent salvation of the Lord.

I only asked one question Ray.

The Minister told me we should not pray because God had decreed this man to have cancer. Now that is idiotic, not m question about being a member of 5 solas!!!!!!!!!

Both are idiotic Joe.

[lionovjudah]

Praying or not praying isn't the issue. IMO it is the content of that prayer that matters. It is foolish to go on about what we think should happen or what God should do. The peace of Christ that passes understanding that Paul spoke of is the knowledge of Christ. Some don't have this so I guess they feel they need to tell God what they want otherwise it might not happen.

As far as this minister goes. I don't know him and I don't know if he would agree with what I just wrote. Prayer is a gift that only believers enjoy. It is worship and should be filled with thanksgiving. If someone desires peace then meditate on the truth. Don't ask God to sprinkle peace dust on you.

I can say for me that I have great peace and love resting in the knowledge of God's sovereignty. If someone else just can't rest in that, then thats all on them. My prayers rarely contain requests. They mostly consist of confessed sin and thanksgiving.


I do not know if this answers my question Mike. Unless it is hidden somewhere. You do not wrestle with God as Jacob? You do not speak with God as Abraham? We are not lifeless believers Mike, and neither is Christ dead. He IS still on the throne. I am not at all saying every prayer I speak is a request or petition, we are speakign of an ACTUAL occurance, not some theological discussion.

How would you have responded to the minister telling us we should not pray because God decreed the sickness, and we woudl be praying against His will. That is my question.

SO again I say the Christ who is the great physician came to seek and save those who are lost. If I pray for physical peace and well being, why not pray for eternal peach and salvation and conversion in our brethren?

This is all Paul did and many in the Writ.

[L-Today]

Joe, the minister is an idiot! No dodging, no evading - he is not only an idiot but is altogether wrong because God ABHORS such callousness, and so should His children.

I'd like to thank you very much for sharing with us what happened to you at the hospital. This Jared man reminded me of the Pharisees. We know who they truly were (and are today), as our Lord Jesus has revealed the contents of their hearts for all to behold - so that we tremble lest our hearts become tombs like theirs, lest it will be said: ''but they were not of us''!

The hated by God Pharisees were blind - our Lord Jesus has explained it so perfectly in the gospels, then Luke continued enlightening us on the same blindness in Acts, then Paul proceeded elucidating the matter even deeper in Romans and Galatians, and, of course, the whole counsel of God confirms the same reason for such Pharisaical blindness.

The reason for their blindness is: resting on the laurels of them being the special people of God. Once they relaxed in this blessed truth, they were (and are today) bound to ignore anything else God commands them. Why should they heed anything more? They are safe and secure in God's election and nothing can touch them. Of course, they performed rites and rituals (as we pronounce the right words), but they could not be merciful nor compassionate - the very quality God requires of His faithful children, together with passionate love for His truth, wisdom and discernment.

That is what invariably happens whether we are aware of it or not: as soon as we forget all else apart from our election and ignore the rest of the vital information God gives to us for He knows our flesh-and-blood natures infinitely better than we do, we become cold-blooded, indifferent to others' suffering and pain Pharisees - hated by our Lord.

Hell is packed with people who were sure they are God's saved ones. They did not heed the huge signs by which God told us to recognize ourselves: Love your God and love your neighbour. We cannot do the first without simultaneously doing the second, and vise versa. We cannot adore God's predestination and His grace toward His elect while at the same time trying to wriggle out of the second part of His clearest of all commandments. It is God, yes, the Almighty Creator who kindly informed us about HIM electing some and reprobating others, but He never meant that WE, the little vapors, start condemning people whose hearts we know nothing about.

Yes, we must judge, of course, for we must discern through the Word of God by His Holy Spirit the Voice of our Good Shepherd and follow Him ONLY. And yes, we must daily expose theological and other errors and perversions of God's Word, which easily happen even in our very midst. Yes, we must daily warn the sheep not to listen to various wolves. And yes, we do rejoice, rest and constantly celebrate our God's sovereignty and predestination so generously revealed to us! YES YES YES - what a joy of joys - we are saved and are living BY GOD'S GRACE IN CHRIST ALONE and not by any works, not by Law! We are robed in Christ's Righteousness alone! What more can one desire in this universe? Nothing is higher - we have all the treasures and riches of God our Father in His Beloved Son and our Savior Jesus Christ.

But where does the Bible teach us that once we believe these glorious truths, we have to stop praying and pitying others, our neighbours and even our persecutors? Yes, we love God's light and hate the darkness of God's enemy, but where, for this reason, are we told not to pray for people? I cannot see what one has got to do with the other - why our being among the elect must turn us into callous Jareds? All saints in the Bible, without one exception, prayed sometimes amiss, and God answered some of their prayers and some He did not answer. So what? Where is one single example of God berating anybody for praying for a person or people? If we are praying in desire for something evil, knowing that God hates such a thing, then it is an obvious sin. But Joe is not talking about asking God for evil things, nor about twisting God's arm to do what He does not will, of course not! We are all praying: IF IT IS YOUR WILL, OH LORD OUR GOD - this ''IF'' clears us of challenging God's will. Or not?

Sorry to develop this subject on the thread for ''winning souls'' - well, such deviations from the theme happened before on this forum, I believe. The past threads on prayers did not answer the questions from my previous postings here, and which I have repeated in this one. If someone wishes to say something in their own words, I'd be most grateful.

Luba.

[lionovjudah]

AMEN Luba!! You are much more eloquent than I in speech. You did not digress the thread at all. If you look back at the original quiz, and the question posed in regards to Romans 9 & 10 in regards to Paul specificaly praying for his brethrens salvation, you are connecting that link with the Pharasitical attitude of men like this Jered. I have NEVER EVER "Qualified" my prayer life according to the secret decrees of God. The thought has never crossed my mind. IT would ignore many other commands contained in the writ. The irony is this. If we rest and live in the decrees of God without any work of our own, we are declaring that God is no longer alive and active in the world. We are supporting an open theism without even knowing it.

It is very simple. THere is NOWHERE in scripture one person condemned by God for a heartfelt prayer for their brethren. Not one. And I will also not that I would rather pray "wrong" according to some systematic, than not pray at all.

Soul winning is not about numbers, it is about the Glorious work of our Lord gathering His elect in the time He sees fit. But again, since we do not know who are elect, or reprobate, the thought NEVER crosses my mind in reagrds to my prayer life.

Mike you appear to imply, and correct me if I am wrong, that you live a sterile, frozen life in the decrees of God. Using vain repetitions of His sovereignty in prayer. DO not ask Him to sprinkle peace dust? WHy not?

OF course adoration is part of our prayer life, but not all. James dismisses this attitude in his book.

IF you see a man hungry and are able to feed them, and only say, "GO and be well, I will pray for you, you are hated by God.

The connection I am attempting to make is just because of our circumstances in life, does not mean we do NOTHING.

If you know someone who is poor, do not tell them to remain poor because God decreed it. Tell them to get off their butts and get a job.

IF you know someone who is sick, dont tell them to lay there and die because God decreed it, get them to a doctor.

IF you know someone without a job, dont tell them to relax, God has decreed it, tell them to get 100 resumes out and God will provide the job for him.


Now if these "earthly" situations require us to help others, is not their spiritual eternity more valuable?

Share the good news and pray for their salvation. DO you honestly think God gets upset over this? Pray that the Holy Spirit convicts and converts them.

When I see the miracle of Grace hammer the iron heart of the most vile person I know, that is where my joy rests. When I see the drug addict, the drunk, the criminal converted by Sovereign grace, that is joy.

When I see my neighbor struggling with sickness and lost. I pray for the Lord to save them. TO help them, to comfort them, to rescue them.

I do nto go into a theological systematic discourse when I pray.

did the publican pray:

Lord, in your secret sovereign decree of election or reprobation, of which I praise you for, have mercy on me if I am elect. If I am reprobate, then dont. Damn me so the pharissee can rejoice over my corpse.I am praying like this because I do not want to upset you and pray against your decreed will from eternity, I know I dont know it because you have not revealed it, but still, you are sovereign, you are sovereign, you are sovereign, you are sovereign, you are sovereign.


No he prayed, "Lord have mercy on me, a SINNER'' absolutley no qualifications, no ifs ands or buts.


"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." (Philippians 4:)

"Pray without ceasing." ( 1 Thess. 5:17)

"Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" (Ephesians 6:18)

You shall call upon me, and you shall go: and you shall pray to me, and I will hear you. You shall seek me, and shall find me, when you shall seek me with all your heart.


Pray to the Lord for the city. Jer 29:7


Pray therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send forth laborers into his harvest.


He will do the will of them that fear him: and he will hear their prayer. Ps. 144: 19.


Neither is there any other nation so great, that have gods so nigh them, as our God is present to all our petitions deut 4:7


Pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man avails much. Jas. 5:16.

And now, O Lord, thou art our Father, and we are clay: and thou art our Maker, and we all are the works of thy hands. Be not very angry, O Lord, and remember no longer our iniquity: behold, see we are all thy people. Is. 64:8

Paul writes to Timothy about his FIRST PRIORITY in 1 Tim 2:1-8
1 Timothy 2:1-8 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. 8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.



In His Name

Joe

[lionovjudah]

We cannot possibly know the identity of God's elect in this world when we go out to preach the gospel. But we preach powerfully and persuasively to every creature indiscriminately and leave the logistics to the Lord. As Paul puts it:
"I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers..." (1 Cor.3:6-9). In the business of gospel preaching, we are God's fellow workers. We spread around the world the fragrance of Christ through our witness with the Gospel, but ultimately it is God who chooses to make the general call of the gospel effective in a person's heart. "He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens" (Rom.9:18). The awesome fact is that "through us [God] diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things?" (2 Cor.2:14-16).

[L-Today]

Joe, excellent postings with clear Biblical proofs!

Sorry for misspelling Jered's name. Can you imagine this man's heart? Empty or what?

About qualifications in prayers: if there are prayers without any qualifications in the Holy Scripture, then it is fine with us too to pray like that. But if there is an example of a qualified prayer - then it is good also. It is easy to hold two thoughts at the same time - being happy that God's will alone is being done, while praying with tears and supplications about people. If there are examples of both types of prayers in the Bible, then either (or both) of them is good.

There is a Reformed Calvinist who, like me, usually prays for our Lord's will to be done in whatever requests he places before our God. This man told me that one day he got attacked by several thugs who went on beating him as hard as they could, just for fun and wanting to take his wallet too. And this friend began screaming at the top of his voice: ''Lord Jesus, help! Jesus Christ! O Lord Jesus!'' And he did not stop shouting like that until the blows softened and the muggers left him.

Reading your posts, Joe, I remembered this man - he has forgotten to qualify his prayers then! And I am sure our Lord has forgiven him this omission as He forgives His children all their sins. So, yes, I agree with you - we are to pray, qualified prayers or not - for both are Biblical, asking God Almighty for mercy and favors, gladly leaving everything to His wise counsel. Once a Christian knows that God is sovereign, this knowledge stays there in his prayers, whether he speaks it out loud or not, for it could not be otherwise, unless he believes that man's will, not God's, prevails.

Luba.

[lionovjudah]

Real Life application and experience does not always equal a sytematic.

I have listened to many "learned" men pray with the right words, right posture, right tone, and it is nothing edifying.

IT sounds and looks good.

Watch a man pray when he does not "know' what to say, and there you find the Holy Spirit speaking for him.

Luba, I would not even go as far as saying the man needed any forgiveness for that prayer.

A contrite heart is what is needed.

[L-Today]

Joe, I was joking when I wrote that I hope this man would be forgiven by God. Sorry!

Of course, you are very right in what you've expressed in this thread, and I am grateful to you for it. I know what you mean by automatic, studied prayers. They are pronounced as if God does not know our hearts long before we think, as if He needs professional prayers!

I don't think any eloquence is required when one knows what the Bible says. Well, maybe it is helpful to be able to formulate one's thoughts, but there are plenty of eloquent fools in churchianity who ''having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof . .''. True, a contrite heart is always needed, as you say.

Nevertheless, Joe, ''real life and application'' should always match Scriptural systematic theology. If they differ, then there is something wrong in the real life application, for the Scriptural systematic theology is our foundation without which we'd be all over the place, clapping hands ''lord, lord'', not knowing the Lord of the Bible at all. If systematic theology is really Scriptural, I don't see how it can differ from the application, for the two should always walk and live together.

Luba.

[lionovjudah]

Nevertheless, Joe, ''real life and application'' should always match Scriptural systematic theology. If they differ, then there is something wrong in the real life application, for the Scriptural systematic theology is our foundation without which we'd be all over the place, clapping hands ''lord, lord'', not knowing the Lord of the Bible at all. If systematic theology is really Scriptural, I don't see how it can differ from the application, for the two should always walk and live together.

Luba.

The pointI was attempting to make Luba is that in our prayer life, we must not look to our understanding of how to pray, more than God knowing what we need before we ask.

For instance, if one builds there prayer life on the decrees of God, the secret decrees, this is the wrong foundation, if one prays as if mans will be done, or God is unknowing of a situation, that is the wrong foundation.

Life application is not the same when one has tunnel visionof the revealed word of God.

As the questions I asked earlier, I would hope to receive some responses.

I can confirm and know 100% that God decrees all that comes to pass, while confessing a prayer life of action and love.

I know God sends some into poverty, but does this mean we are not to help them get up and work?

I know God sends disease, but are we not to call on Him for healing and peace, and take the medicine?

See my point? hahhahaha

If we stay in the secret decrees of our systematic, we forget about a lot of the revesaled will of God.

Again, Jered had a systematic which only thought about the decree, and not the application of that decree in the life of the believer.

The free willer applies his application just as wrong.

I can maintain both truths with no paradox. God decrees the situation, but we are also commanded to ask in His name. Petition the Lord for delivverence


Joe

[L-Today]

Joe,

Jered did not have Scriptural systematic theology at all, for he did not know ''love your God and love your neighbour''. You see, he missed the most important point of the whole Scripture.

I understand what you are saying that although God predestined everything, we should help people - naturally, and I agree and think most here will agree that if we can we should help those God sends to us. We should never be Jereds. And I also understand that when you are praying, you want to focus on the object of your prayers, not on the eternal decrees. I am sure it is very fine to pray this way, and millions of Christians are praying exactly like that.

But do you think it is wrong for those who can, to hold the eternal decree in their mind while praying for others? I think it is perfectly fine too, although it might be difficult for others to even imagine. Do you think that only ''eternity-less'' prayers are Biblical?

L

[lionovjudah]

Joe,

Jered did not have Scriptural systematic theology at all, for he did not know ''love your God and love your neighbour''. You see, he missed the most important point of the whole Scripture.

I understand what you are saying that although God predestined everything, we should help people - naturally, and I agree and think most here will agree that if we can we should help those God sends to us. We should never be Jereds. And I also understand that when you are praying, you want to focus on the object of your prayers, not on the eternal decrees. I am sure it is very fine to pray this way, and millions of Christians are praying exactly like that.

But do you think it is wrong for those who can, to hold the eternal decree in their mind while praying for others? I think it is perfectly fine too, although it might be difficult for others to even imagine. Do you think that only ''eternity-less'' prayers are Biblical?

L


Of course one can Luba. There is nothing wrong with that if it is done correctly. Now Jered thought he was. He thought he was sincere, instead he missed the boat.

I pray like that at times. But I NEVER think that just because a person is in a specific situation, they are to remain there.

Like I mentioned, God may send disease, but He may also send the doctor. And if we are to be concerned about physical healing, why not spiritual healing

[L-Today]

Very true, Joe, God often sends our way sick people or folks in trouble for us to practice mercy and love as taught in the Scripture. If everybody was healthy, rich and happy, we would not be able to practice compassion, nor love our neighbour. So everybody we meet is for the purpose. Do you think, Joe, that we should go feeding hungry people everywhere? Or help everyone we meet or only some of them? And do we tell them the Gospel? What if one hungry is a Christian and another an unbeliever, who do we help if we have only for one person?

L

[lionovjudah]

Very true, Joe, God often sends our way sick people or folks in trouble for us to practice mercy and love as taught in the Scripture. If everybody was healthy, rich and happy, we would not be able to practice compassion, nor love our neighbour. So everybody we meet is for the purpose. Do you think, Joe, that we should go feeding hungry people everywhere? Or help everyone we meet or only some of them? And do we tell them the Gospel? What if one hungry is a Christian and another an unbeliever, who do we help if we have only for one person?

L

I will quote scripture for your answer L.

"Let brotherly love continue. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares". Hebrews 13

What's the greatest good we can desire for the stranger? ..that He come to know Christ as we know Him! There is no higher good we can hope for. This is hospitality, this is the Love of God shown in doing it unto the least of these. And now and then, one of these strangers is one chosen of God, an elect messenger (not angel) who we have entertained unawares

The meaning of this verse is that there are the Chosen of God (messengers) who we don't know, and who may not even know themselves as yet that they are Chosen. But we are to be friendly to all strangers, as some have entertained these messengers of God (the Elect) unawares. The same principle as Jesus put forth in Luke 30:36 when saying be neighborly. We are to be neighborly and show forth the Grace of God in Love to our fellow man. Both to the brethren and to the stranger.

[Mickey]

Joe, I was going to stop responding to this thread but I have a few things on my mind that I want to share.

I believe that as we grow and learn, we spend less time petitioning God for the things we used to. Some things become less important and we spend less time thinking and dwelling on them. We learn to be content in every situation and trust God. Sure at times I may be depressed, angry or worried and in those times I cry out to God and petition Him. But this is done on a purely emotional basis. Some of those prayers were selfish some were not.

The Bible teaches us that God is wise, that He loves His own, He is Just, He works all things for the good for those who love Him, His will-will be done and much much more. This is to teach us, so our minds are renewed and placed in line with the thoughts of God. All of the truths revealed to us in scripture line up to form reality. I don't believe as Van Till does that the Bible is analogical and that we never think or understand the full truth. I know you don't think that way either. These propositions are revealed to us by God so that we can believe and stand on something that is firm and true. This is what our salvation is--to be brought out of darkness and shown the truth.

If I come down with cancer (which would not surprise me, my chances are high) then it may be God's will to heal me and it may be His will to bring me home. You know what?! Either one is great with me! But one thing is sure; I can stand firm on what I know. If the things of this world don't bother me most of the time is that a bad thing? Why can't I leave all the planning up to God and just do what I gotta do? All the glory goes to Him.

Now I have had loved ones in great pain for long periods of time, and no one likes to watch people suffer. My father suffered for a year before he died a couple years ago. It is in these times that we must share the truth with these people. The knowledge of the sovereign God brings peace to a troubled soul (that is if they are His children). Why would we if we have any compassion deprive any person from the truth? Why would we not talk about the sovereignty of God? Do we just want God to make us feel better without revealing to us the truth? I firmly believe that peace only comes through knowledge. People will either reject the truth or accept it and those that reject it deserve to suffer without peace. Those that receive it are God’s children and this knowledge brings comfort and peace.

But this goes back to what I said before. Some don't have this knowledge so they must pour out there supplications before God. Some just need to get it all off their chest I guess.

I do not live a sterile life. I worship God in spirit and truth. I pray with my mind. I am filled with joy up until I'm cut off in traffic. ;) I talk to people about the Gospel and the things of God all the time. When I pray I confess my sin, my pride, my lustful thoughts, my anger, etc...I give thanks for God's preservation of me, his constant provision, the knowledge He has given me so that I may know Him and this life. I worship and adore everything about Him and I could not do any of this unless He by His grace had taught me the truth. So it is in all of this that I find rest.

So do I ‘qualify’ my prayers? I don’t have to, because I pray the way I think and it is always from the heart. I am brain washed and cannot think any other way accept through the lenses of a world ruled by a Sovereign God.

Paul over time learned to be content in all things. I imagine he didn't pray the same as he did when he first became a believer--who knows.

Mike

[lionovjudah]

Joe, I was going to stop responding to this thread but I have a few things on my mind that I want to share.

I believe that as we grow and learn, we spend less time petitioning God for the things we used to. Some things become less important and we spend less time thinking and dwelling on them. We learn to be content in every situation and trust God. Sure at times I may be depressed, angry or worried and in those times I cry out to God and petition Him. But this is done on a purely emotional basis. Some of those prayers were selfish some were not.

The Bible teaches us that God is wise, that He loves His own, He is Just, He works all things for the good for those who love Him, His will-will be done and much much more. This is to teach us, so our minds are renewed and placed in line with the thoughts of God. All of the truths revealed to us in scripture line up to form reality. I don't believe as Van Till does that the Bible is analogical and that we never think or understand the full truth. I know you don't think that way either. These propositions are revealed to us by God so that we can believe and stand on something that is firm and true. This is what our salvation is--to be brought out of darkness and shown the truth.

If I come down with cancer (which would not surprise me, my chances are high) then it may be God's will to heal me and it may be His will to bring me home. You know what?! Either one is great with me! But one thing is sure; I can stand firm on what I know. If the things of this world don't bother me most of the time is that a bad thing? Why can't I leave all the planning up to God and just do what I gotta do? All the glory goes to Him.

Now I have had loved ones in great pain for long periods of time, and no one likes to watch people suffer. My father suffered for a year before he died a couple years ago. It is in these times that we must share the truth with these people. The knowledge of the sovereign God brings peace to a troubled soul (that is if they are His children). Why would we if we have any compassion deprive any person from the truth? Why would we not talk about the sovereignty of God? Do we just want God to make us feel better without revealing to us the truth? I firmly believe that peace only comes through knowledge. People will either reject the truth or accept it and those that reject it deserve to suffer without peace. Those that receive it are God’s children and this knowledge brings comfort and peace.

But this goes back to what I said before. Some don't have this knowledge so they must pour out there supplications before God. Some just need to get it all off their chest I guess.

I do not live a sterile life. I worship God in spirit and truth. I pray with my mind. I am filled with joy up until I'm cut off in traffic. ;) I talk to people about the Gospel and the things of God all the time. When I pray I confess my sin, my pride, my lustful thoughts, my anger, etc...I give thanks for God's preservation of me, his constant provision, the knowledge He has given me so that I may know Him and this life. I worship and adore everything about Him and I could not do any of this unless He by His grace had taught me the truth. So it is in all of this that I find rest.

So do I ‘qualify’ my prayers? I don’t have to, because I pray the way I think and it is always from the heart. I am brain washed and cannot think any other way accept through the lenses of a world ruled by a Sovereign God.

Paul over time learned to be content in all things. I imagine he didn't pray the same as he did when he first became a believer--who knows.

Mike


Mike: THis post is excellent. Thank you for showing me you are not just a dead rock. That was my premature fear in regards to you. You explained very heartfelt and charitable. The difference is it came from you and not some dead guru!!!! HAHAHAHAHA

Now that is how one who believes in the Almighties Sovereignty teaches another Mike.

One does not say "Well God decreed it, so suck it up!!!"

When I speak of resting in His decrees, perhaps a better word is "stopping" in His decrees as if He and us are just dead lifeless people.

God IS Alive. That is the God I worship. All others worship a dead "thing"

We must NEVER forget for one second that the God who decrees from eternity, is the same God who delivers on the decree in time. He IS with His sheep.

This is why I presented my thoughts in regards to Paul. Paul, the same Christian hunter, the persecutor of the Lord, the one who had a direct revelation from Christ was a real living person. A person who spoke of Christ alone after His converesion. WHo preached Christ and Him crucified.

THis same Paul prayed for others, Mike, he prayed for agrippa. While also knowing that it is all up to God. But through the vessel Paul, many were converted. And all the glory goes to God alone.

So when Paul says, "I would, I wish, whatever way one translates it, to be cut off from Christ, or my desire is that my brethren believe, he was not lying or pretending. He knew it was not possible for the Lord to take his life as a sacrafice for the Jews, but he said it to show them how wonderful the Lord is.


Joe

[L-Today]

Mike, I am joining Joe in admiring your post! Most excellent and from the heart lesson to us, dear brother!

Of course, Joe, our Lord IS alive and with us: '' lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen.'' Who can ask for more?

Yes, we are to be kind and charitable to strangers we meet, the teaching is clear on it. What about far away poor, sick, etc?

Luba.

[lionovjudah]

Yes, we are to be kind and charitable to strangers we meet, the teaching is clear on it. What about far away poor, sick, etc?

Luba.


L:

One has to be very careful in this application in order they do not fall prey to the orthopraxy of liberation theology.

God is not respector of persons and neither should we. I offer universal prayers for those afflicted. As Paul commands Timothy. If I can help, I do, not enough though.

I believe God in His sovereignty will provide us with opportunities as those spoken of in Matthew 25, and we will not even realize it.

[lionovjudah]

BraNDAN ARE WE GOING TO ADDRESS THIS QUESTION i RESPONDED TO IN POST # 40?

Re: Quiz for "Soul Winners"
Brandan, here is another question I would like to address.

Whom does God seek--His servants, or Satan’s servants? (Psalm 119.176)

I believe He seeks servants of satan. I am not talking about a backslider as David speaks in 119.


As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. (Ephesians 2:1-3)

Because of God's great love for us, God did something. Not we, but God. God made us alive in Jesus when we were dead in our sin. God showed us love when we were filled with hatred towrds him.

God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

God took us servants of Satan, servants of our sinful nature and loved us as if we were servants of Jesus Christ

Paul is saying that it's not just that we once were without God, it is that we were also actively against God.
What a description of how we once were - 2 Cor.4:4; Eph.4:17-19.
And of course, as we lived in the dominion of darkness we were also under the power and authority of Satan, the prince of Darkness. He is a liar and a murderer, and the empty, futile lives of his subjects are those which are subject to degradation, selfishness, bitterness and death. And we too once lived in such a state. Ignorant of our condition, wallowing in the mire of our sin, reaping the wages of our disobedience.


Acts 26:18 NIV) to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.(Col 1:13-14 NIV) For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

[Brandan Kraft]

God seeks the righteous. He seeks His sheep. He seeks His ordained servants. He does not seek Satan's servants or children. He does not seek the wicked. He seeks the Lord's children.

Ps 119:176, (GILL), I have gone astray like a lost sheep,.... In desert places, as it is the nature of sheep to do [o]. A sheep he was, a sheep of Christ, given him by the Father; known by him, and that knew him; knew his voice, and followed him; a sheep of his hand, and of his pasture; one of the lost sheep of the house of Israel, who had been lost in Adam, though recovered by grace; and had gone astray before conversion, but now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of souls; and since conversion had gone astray from the Shepherd and fold, from the word and precepts of it, through inadvertence, the prevalence of corruption, the snares of the world, and the temptations of Satan; which he both deprecates and owns, Ps 119:10 (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&createchaps=1&highlight=1&abrv=1&version=kjv&book=19&chapter=119&verse1=10); though it may be understood, as it is by many interpreters, of his being forced, by the persecutions of his enemies, to wander from the courts of God, and from place to place:


seek thy servant; as a shepherd does his sheep when gone astray, which will not return of itself unless sought after: thou art my Shepherd, as if he should say, look me up, restore my soul; suffer me not to wander from thee, and go astray from thy word and ordinances: and when he calls himself his servant, it carries in it an argument for being looked up and sought out; since he was his servant, not by nature, but by grace; not by force, but willingly; he was his and devoted to his service. And another follows:

for I do not forget thy commandments; he retained a knowledge of them, an affection for them, and a desire to observe them; though he had gone astray from them, either in a criminal way, through the power and prevalence of sin, or against his will, through the force of persecution.

[lionovjudah]

God seeks the righteous. He seeks His sheep. He seeks His ordained servants. He does not seek Satan's servants or children. He seeks the Lord's children.

Ps 119:176, (GILL), I have gone astray like a lost sheep,.... In desert places, as it is the nature of sheep to do [o]. A sheep he was, a sheep of Christ, given him by the Father; known by him, and that knew him; knew his voice, and followed him; a sheep of his hand, and of his pasture; one of the lost sheep of the house of Israel, who had been lost in Adam, though recovered by grace; and had gone astray before conversion, but now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of souls; and since conversion had gone astray from the Shepherd and fold, from the word and precepts of it, through inadvertence, the prevalence of corruption, the snares of the world, and the temptations of Satan; which he both deprecates and owns, Ps 119:10 (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&createchaps=1&highlight=1&abrv=1&version=kjv&book=19&chapter=119&verse1=10); though it may be understood, as it is by many interpreters, of his being forced, by the persecutions of his enemies, to wander from the courts of God, and from place to place:


seek thy servant; as a shepherd does his sheep when gone astray, which will not return of itself unless sought after: thou art my Shepherd, as if he should say, look me up, restore my soul; suffer me not to wander from thee, and go astray from thy word and ordinances: and when he calls himself his servant, it carries in it an argument for being looked up and sought out; since he was his servant, not by nature, but by grace; not by force, but willingly; he was his and devoted to his service. And another follows:

for I do not forget thy commandments; he retained a knowledge of them, an affection for them, and a desire to observe them; though he had gone astray from them, either in a criminal way, through the power and prevalence of sin, or against his will, through the force of persecution.



So the scriptures from Paul do not mean what they say? lol

The elect are sheep. I am not for one second saying He seeks the goats. It is one thing to believe in JFE, it is a far cry from the truth of the word to say we are all not servants of DARKNESS BEFORE CONVERSION.

Acts 26:18 NIV) to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.(Col 1:13-14 NIV) For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Now there is no way of making these mean what they do not say here.

Since you used Gill. Let us read what he says about these verses:

and to turn them from darkness to light; or "that they might be turned", as the Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions render it: by "darkness" is meant, the darkness of nature, the darkness of sin, of ignorance, and unbelief, in which all men by nature are; who are in the dark about, and are ignorant of God, and the perfections of his nature; and about sin, and the evil there is in it, and that comes by it; and the way of peace, righteousness, and salvation by Christ; and the work of the spirit in regeneration and sanctification upon the heart; and about the Scriptures of truth, and the doctrines of the Gospel, and what will be their state and portion in another world; they do not know where they are, what they are, nor where they are going: and in the effectual calling this darkness is in a great measure removed, and they are turned to light; to God, who is light itself, and to Christ, the light of the world, and to the light of the word, and to a participation of the light of grace here, in which they see light, and behold the above things, and of the light of glory hereafter........and from the power of Satan unto God: this power of Satan regards not his power over the rest of the devils, whose prince and head he is; hence he is called the prince of devils, and the prince of the power of the air; but his power over the world of men, which he has by usurpation, and therefore is called the prince of the world; but not his power over the bodies of men, by possessing them, inflicting diseases, and death itself upon them, nor over their estates; all which is only by permission of God, whenever he exercises it; but over the souls of men, in whom he rules as in his own kingdom: he is the strong man armed, and the hearts of men are his palaces, which are guarded with devils and unclean lusts; when all the goods are kept in peace by him, there is no concern about sin, no inquiry after salvation, no dread of the curses of the law, nor fear of hell and damnation, but all in the utmost security: and he not only dwells in the hearts of unregenerate persons, but he works effectually there; by stirring up their corruptions, putting ill things into their minds, and instigating them against true spiritual and powerful religion, and the professors of it: he has power over the minds of them that believe not, to blind them, by keeping them in blindness, and increasing it; which he does by diverting their minds from hearing the Gospel; and whilst hearing it, by filling them with enmity against it. Moreover, they are led by him as captives at his will; they are in his power, as the bird is in the snare of the fowler, and as a prisoner in the hands of a jailer; and are entirely at his beck and command, and do his lusts, and obey his will: and this also may have a particular respect to the power and authority which he exercised over the Heathens, before the Gospel came among them; Satan usurped a power over the Gentile world, and took upon him to be the god of it; and for many hundred of years was worshipped in their idols; and he held them fast bound unto him in the fetters of ignorance, superstition, and idolatry; but now the Gospel was sent among them to free them from this power and tyranny of his; and it was made effectual to the turning of multitudes of them from him, and subjection to him, which is done in the effectual calling of every person; not that Satan then has no more power over them to tempt and distress them, but not to rule over them, and lead them about at pleasure, and much less to devour and destroy them: and then also are they turned to God, to have true knowledge of him, and an hearty desire after him, which they had not before; and to a love of him, whose hearts before were enmity to him; and to believe in him, and trust in him as the God of providence, and of grace; and to have communion with him; and to be subject to his government, and yield a cheerful obedience to him, both externally and internally.

Now that is very obvious. Here is the next one

Ver. 13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,.... That is, from the power of Satan; see Ac 26:18 (http://www.freegrace.net/kjv/Acts/26.html#18), who, though once an angel of light, is now darkness itself, and is reserved in chains of darkness; he is a ruler of the darkness of this world; his kingdom is a kingdom of darkness; and he blinds the minds of them that believe not, keeps them in darkness, and increases the natural darkness of their minds.....

Moreover, the darkness of sin, ignorance, and unbelief, with which God's elect, while in a state of nature, are surrounded, and, as it were shut up and imprisoned, so that they have not the least spark of true spiritual light and knowledge, may be also meant; under the power of which they are to such a degree, that they know nothing of God in Christ, of the way of salvation by him, or of the work of the Spirit on their souls, or of the doctrines of the Gospel in an experimental manner; and so they continue, till, by an almighty power, they are turned from darkness to light; when, by powerful grace, they are plucked as brands out of the burning, and delivered from wrath to come, and from that utter darkness of misery and destruction their ways of sin and darkness led and exposed them to.

when rescued out of Satan's hands, and recovered out of their former state of ignorance and infidelity; when they are by the drawings of the Father, by his powerful and efficacious grace, brought to Christ, and, in the day his power on their souls,


To consider that david means gone astray, we would have to conclude he was in the fold. For how can one stray from nothing

Christ did not come for the rightoeuss either Brandan. He came for those who are not righteouss.
MATT 9:13

But go ye and learn what 'this' meaneth, I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.


But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.' YLT




10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost


15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


Luke 5;32

32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Romans 4:5, “To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”


Again, you are blending the eternal decree with what scripture actually says we are prior to regeneration.

If you believe in JFE, you must also conclude that the elect are born without the taint of Adams sin worthy of damnation.

This is almost RCC in that we are born in grace, then fall from grace.

We are not born rightoeuss, there is nothing that even hints at this in the world.

[Robert R. Higby]

it is a far cry from the truth of the word to say we are all not servants of DARKNESS BEFORE CONVERSION

We are servants of darkness in EXPERIENCE before regeneration, without internal hope and a saving knowledge of God. The hope of the sheep before conversion is objective (consisting of God's elective decree, justifying disposition, and plan to save)--not subjective. That is how I view what the scriptures say on this subject--when all of them are added up.

[lionovjudah]

it is a far cry from the truth of the word to say we are all not servants of DARKNESS BEFORE CONVERSION

We are servants of darkness in EXPERIENCE before regeneration, without internal hope and a saving knowledge of God. The hope of the sheep before conversion is objective (consisting of God's elective decree, justifying disposition, and plan to save)--not subjective. That is how I view what the scriptures say on this subject--when all of them are added up.


Before conversion, many would not admit they hate God or their neighbor as the HC Q & A #5 says.

I believed in God, I would mark the box Christian on a job app.

So I never considered myself a servant of satan, until after I was regenerated and converted and look back.

You would think that just once the Holy Spirit could have inspired Christ, Paul et all to write this clearly in regatrds to your answer Bob.

Just once, why could He not inspire Christ to say, "I came not for the righteouss, but those who are servants of darkness in experience to repentance."

Another Issue I have is what did the hearers believe when they heard the plain words of Christ?

Did they take His words at face value, or did they take them to mean something else...

[Brandan Kraft]

Thank you Bob. From God's perspective, His people have always been righteous and have always been His servants. His sheep are only lost experientially. They only serve satan experientially. But in the eternal aspect, they are always seen as God's servants.

[lionovjudah]

Thank you Bob. From God's perspective, His people have always been righteous and have always been His servants. His sheep are only lost experientially. They only serve satan experientially. But in the eternal aspect, they are always seen as God's servants.

Than WHY cant this be clear in the writ? Why did not it ever say this plainly in the writ?

Yes it says everylasting love, chosenfrom the foundation of the world, but also has 1000's of scriptures speaking of our servant to sin. Look I love my wife, but at times I cant stand being around her because of things she does, and vice versa.

We have to be servants of Satan, or else we would not rejoice in our Salvation.

God has saved the most wicked, vile creatures, and His word, Christ Himself says, I did nto come for the righteouss. and that is it

Anyway, regardless, we are not God, so we are to speak of man, and as a man, we are servants of satan until conversion.

I mean, if we use your answer for everything BRandan, where are we left with? What do I do with the 66 books?

How would I or you teach a lesson if given Luke 5:22 or Matt 9 or Col 1? Give it to 1000 believers, and all would concur that they mean what they say.

The Scriptures were written for us not for God.

According to this eternal, God view mentality, the 66 books could be condensed into 3 verses.

[Brandan Kraft]

Joe, remember the quiz?

6.Were Christ’s parables used as "sermon illustrations" to make His teachings plain? (Mark 4.11-12)

Mk 4:11-12, (KJV), And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: (12) That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

These things are made clear to God's people in time. Honestly, it's very clear to me.

Take for example this passage: Prov 17:15, (KJV), He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

Everyone that loves to talk about how God hates the elect before conversion ignores this passage. After all, God hates all workers of iniquity. And all men are workers of iniquity, right? Well then if God justifies workers of iniquity, this is an abomination to him according to this passage!

Look, God only justified those He saw as righteous! God only sent Jesus for those He already saw as righteous. All throughout the OT where it speaks of God loving the righteous and hating the wicked - it is only from God's perspective. Even now, I myself do wicked things, yet I know that the Lord loves me and continues to see me as justified! You can make just as much a case for the elect being servants of satan after conversion as you can before conversion. We must view ourselves from God's perspective and not our own or else we will not understand.

Brandan

[lionovjudah]

Joe, remember the quiz?

6.Were Christ’s parables used as "sermon illustrations" to make His teachings plain? (Mark 4.11-12)

Mk 4:11-12, (KJV), And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: (12) That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

These things are made clear to God's people in time. Honestly, it's very clear to me.

Take for example this passage: Prov 17:15, (KJV), He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

Everyone that loves to talk about how God hates the elect before conversion ignores this passage. After all, God hates all workers of iniquity. And all men are workers of iniquity, right? Well then if God justifies workers of iniquity, this is an abomination to him according to this passage!

Look, God only justified those He saw as righteous! God only sent Jesus for those He already saw as righteous. All throughout the OT where it speaks of God loving the righteous and hating the wicked - it is only from God's perspective. Even now, I myself do wicked things, yet I know that the Lord loves me and continues to see me as justified! You can make just as much a case for the elect being servants of satan after conversion as you can before conversion. We must view ourselves from God's perspective and not our own or else we will not understand.

Brandan


This is all well and good BRandan, but still fails to address Christs OWN words, who is God Himself. He said He came not for the righteouss, he came to lead sinners to repentance. How else am I supposed to read that?

I am not saying He hates those whom He was sent for. I believe he loves them and that is why He seeks and saves them. Everything Christ spoke was not in a parable.

Scriptures says were were enimies, at emnity against Him. Servants of darkness. But yet He loved us and saved His elect. Now that is grace Brandan. That is Sovereignty.

IT is more Sovereign to Love someone who hates you than love someone who loves you.

Scripture becomes pointless to me if everything is answered with, "Well God decreed this in eternity. I believe He did, but God also interacted in time with everyone in the writ.

We were not created to live in His secret council before the foundations of the earth. And God Did not stop at His decree BRandan. DO you see how this mirrors an open theism? He decreed, and thats it? Everything will happen? God interacts with His creation daily, in time. He also predestined the means.

The Heidelbergh Cat # 5 says we hate God and our neighbor. That is all I am saying. And until the work of the Holy Spirit comes upon us, we remain in that condition. We are not born righteuoss, we are not born without adams taint.

And I can not find one instance where one in scripture speaks or believes are you are elevated your understanding to.

I cannot find one instance of a person who thought and viwed life only from the eternal decree and not that He is a sinner, Got is angry with them, but yet loves them in Christ.

I cannto and will not throw out the numerous scriptures that plainly show we served darkness, they have to remain in the writ.

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

We were not created to live in His secret council before the foundations of the earth. And God Did not stop at His decree BRandan. DO you see how this mirrors an open theism? He decreed, and thats it? Everything will happen? God interacts with His creation daily, in time. He also predestined the means.


Gen 2:2, (KJV), "... And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

Heb 4:1-4, (KJV) "... Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."

[Tobias Crisp]

Gen 2:2, (KJV), "... And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

Heb 4:1-4, (KJV) "... Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."UGC, I'm not here necessarily to defense LOJ, but I would say that the Scriptures you used do not refute what LOJ was saying. These Scriptures relate to God's hand in creation. What LOJ is arguing, if I understand him correctly, is the outworking of God's decree through Providence.

[lionovjudah]

Gen 2:2, (KJV), "... And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

Heb 4:1-4, (KJV) "... Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."

Scott, this rest is in regards to His creation, not His activity in the world. Again you are espousing a God who does nto interact with His creation in time. A god who did not wrestle jacob, who did nto smite Paul on the road to damascus, a God who did not come in the fullness of time incarnate. He came and tabernacled amongst us Scott.

[lionovjudah]

UGC, I'm not here necessarily to defense LOJ, but I would say that the Scriptures you used do not refute what LOJ was saying. These Scriptures relate to God's hand in creation. What LOJ is arguing, if I understand him correctly, is the outworking of God's decree through Providence.


Yes, exactly Anthony. Is God ACTIVELY working with His creation right now, or has he been done since his eternal council or the 7th day?

Is He an absentee Lanlord who wound the clock of decrees, and is now sleeping? Or is He ACTIVELY present with His Creation as we speak?

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

UGC, I'm not here necessarily to defense LOJ, but I would say that the Scriptures you used do not refute what LOJ was saying. These Scriptures relate to God's hand in creation. What LOJ is arguing, if I understand him correctly, is the outworking of God's decree through Providence.

Right, my bad.

God rested from works, not providence.

Sorry Joe. :D

[Robert R. Higby]

Again you are espousing a God who does nto interact with His creation in time. A god who did not wrestle jacob, who did nto smite Paul on the road to damascus, a God who did not come in the fullness of time incarnate. He came and tabernacled amongst us Scott.

God's purposes in eternity are REAL with regard to history, not abstract decrees. Everything that God does in time, including the most dramatic and controversial acts, are a done deal transcendant of all time and space. This is the only reality that gives actual history any true meaning.

[GraceAmbassador]

God's purposes in eternity are REAL with regard to history, not abstract decrees. Everything that God does in time, including the most dramatic and controversial acts, are a done deal transcendant of all time and space. This is the only reality that gives actual history any true meaning.

Absolutely correct!

In order to understand God, one must have in perspective the fact that God DOES NOT intervenes in "time" (measured time) to procure His decrees, as if He is finding the best way to write them in eternity; God intervenes in measured time, and interacts with His creatures in "measured time" TO EXECUTE his ETERNAL decrees.

I know I said that in the other thread, including the above, but in creation, in the event with Abraham and Isaac, jumping to the life of Ezekiah, to whom God added 15 years of life, and even the events on the cross and the conversion of Paul were not decisions of God or providences of God seeking to manage a eminent problem as if to resolve it; all these interventions were His planned decrees being executed.

We either believe that He "declares the end from ghe beginning and from the ancient times the things that are not yet done..." or we believe God is a fireman on duty waiting for the alarm to ring so He can douce some random fires in the avenues of eternety. Not So! His counsel shall stand and He will do (execute) His pleasure!

Milt

[lionovjudah]

Absolutely correct!

In order to understand God, one must have in perspective the fact that God DOES NOT intervenes in "time" (measured time) to procure His decrees, as if He is finding the best way to write them in eternity; God intervenes in measured time, and interacts with His creatures in "measured time" TO EXECUTE his ETERNAL decrees.

I do not know what this means Milt "measured time"



We either believe that He "declares the end from ghe beginning and from the ancient times the things that are not yet done..." or we believe God is a fireman on duty waiting for the alarm to ring so He can douce some random fires in the avenues of eternety. Not So! His counsel shall stand and He will do (execute) His pleasure!

Milt

Of course this is true. even the execution of His decree is decreed per se' And it actually becomes a historical event in time

[GraceAmbassador]

I do not know what this means Milt "measured time"

The time in which we live. The time "under the sun" to use Ecclesiastes expression. The "kronos" time, whence we derive the word "chronology".

Milt

[lionovjudah]

The time in which we live. The time "under the sun" to use Ecclesiastes expression. The "kronos" time, whence we derive the word "chronology".

Milt

Thanx Milt.

THat is what I only mean when I speak of time. IF necessary I will qualify it in the future.


Joe