Axioms

[katoikei]

No matter how much one tries to come up with original posts on this forum there seems to be a common interest in what are called 'axioms' or 'first principles'. These are revealed for us as being neccessary for maturity, and a platform for us to understand the teachings on righteousness. They are referred to as milk and not meat. They are definite requirements by God, which only God will grant the permission for one to proceed beyond; my guess is that only once we have diligently searched the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation and allowed the Lord our God to teach us, only once we have learned to rightly divide the word of truth, are we permitted to venture into teachings which Peter warned about and which unstable souls attempt to understand and only end up being really confused. It is my theory that unless one addresses these 'axioms' thoroughly there will always be confusion when attempting to studying the Scriptures and specifically the Apostle Paul.

The other point, is that so many do not receive the instruction from the Scriptures alone, and therefore end up becoming very confused. It may be a hard thing to do...to read through the whole Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, and explore each of the 'axioms' as laid down in Hebrews 6:1-3 but I believe it is absolutely neccessary, for unless it is done, one is certain to end up with a false doctrine, and find oneself miles off course and not abiding in the Lord, as we are meant to be. More strongly put we will find ourselves easy prey for the deciever, who at first decieved Eve from the simplicity, that same simplicity which we have come to know of in Jesus Christ.

Specifically...have you not also noticed that the following topics have a tendency to errupt on an almost cyclical basis:

1. Repentance from dead works and faith towards God.
2. The doctrine of Baptisms and Laying on of hands
3. Resurrection of the dead and the Eternal Judgement

One might say, a strong NO!...but look carefully. There are numerous variables on the above, which resurface regularly, and it is an indication of uncertainty and immaturity, to continually desire clarity on these 'axioms' which represent the blueprint for knowing the difference between good and evil. ( While I was working on a Commentary for the book of Colossians, I got stuck on understanding how 'Baptism' fits in and posted my first post here examining the question, my bad, I have seen the topic of 'Faith' arise a number of times. Topics about the divine attributes of God, are more than needed on a site where we are meant to be moving beyond the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, and on to maturity and the stuff that Paul taught, 'If God permits' - there is the element that as a forum we need to tarry until those who are weak in the faith have been strengthened and upbuilt in their faith. So perhaps repetition is inevitable and certainly not beyond the realm of correct teaching technique. Details about eternal bodies, and judgments continually errupt, and well I have yet to read one on the laying on of hands or healings. But I know they are there.)

So without seeming to be the off-site menace of Predestinarian, it might be nice every so now and again if complete commentary on a book were examined as was the book by Martin Luther. What of maybe examining the Commentary of the book of Galatians by Martin Luther, or better still what of going through the book of Galatains verse by verse. I am not presuming to think I might be skilled to do so, but I am sure that Milt would put us up where the angels play, with such a Study. (Perhaps four studies covering the Pauline Epistles, I know for sure that Wildboar, would be eager. And ofcourse Darth, you are the man!.How about it Robert?..I mean just to get us out of the squishy stuff, it is really stinking up the zone!)

Just an off site ex 5Solas junkie, crying out for meat instead of all this milk, milk, milk, ewe...

His servant,
Katoikei
(00/08)
:cool:

[katoikei]

And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.

And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.

And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.

And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.

And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs.

Exodus 4:10-17

Hello there ? Whilst driving home from a fairly rewarding evening in the studio, I popped on the mp3 player and began listening to Leviticus and eventually reached this segment in Exodus and it seems to apply so directly.

This is a rich passage for consideration, and by way of a bit of encouragement to those who are afraid to examine the Scriptures as a study instead of getting topical all the time. We might consider a little line upon line, precept upon precept study.

I suppose in the meantime we can just explore this passage together. I have seen a lot here which might be worthy of consideration on the topic of Predestination. Can anyone else see the supra-infra consideration. Please help me ye olde masters of 5Solas and earlier. I look forward to a very interesting discussion on this passage, and who knows how far we will get in the book of EXODUS....

His servant,
katoikei
(00/09)
:cool:

[katoikei]

Fellow hobbits,

I was looking through my assortment of Commentaries and found this really excellent snippet by JFB. What think ye? (read the previous comment for the context, or not)

Exodus 4:14


the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses — The Divine Being is not subject to ebullitions of passion; but His displeasure was manifested by transferring the honor of the priesthood, which would otherwise have been bestowed on Moses, to Aaron, who was from this time destined to be the head of the house of Levi (1Chronicles 23:13). Marvellous had been His condescension and patience in dealing with Moses; and now every remaining scruple was removed by the unexpected and welcome intelligence that his brother Aaron was to be his colleague. God knew from the beginning what Moses would do, but He reserves this motive to the last as the strongest to rouse his languid heart, and Moses now fully and cordially complied with the call. If we are surprised at his backwardness amidst all the signs and promises that were given him, we must admire his candor and honesty in recording it.

His servant,
Katoikei
(00/10)
:cool:

[momoz]

Quoting from the Pentateuch by CH Mackintosh in relational to Ex 4:14,


"We have noted the timidity and hesitation of Moses, notwithstanding the varied promises and assurances with which divine grace had furnished him.'..Does not all this hold up before us a faithful mirror in which you and I can see our hearts reflected? Truly it does. We are more ready to trust anything than the living GOD. We move along with bold decision when we possess the countenance and support of a poor frail mortal like ourselves; but we falter, hesitate, and demur when we have the light of the Master’s countenance to cheer us, and the strength of His omnipotent arm to support us. This should humble us deeply before the LORD, and lead us to seek a fuller acquaintance with Him, so that we might trust Him with a more unmixed confidence, and walk on with a firmer step, as having Him alone for our resource and portion…"

I love the Old Testament, so rich..
momoz

[katoikei]

Hi momoz,

Thanks for bringing in your perspective on this passage in Exodus. I was really worried about Exodus 4:13-14, for it seems to present one with the idea that God not all knowing, for he struggles with Moses and then decides to include Aaron in the picture to accomplish His will. I was reading through what Gill had to say and read this rather curious view.



And he said, O my Lord,.... Acknowledging his dominion, his sovereignty, his power to do the above things: or "on me, O Lord" (u), be the blame for making such objections; or on me let this work be devolved, since it is thy pleasure:

send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. Many of the ancient Christian fathers understand it of the Messiah that was to be sent, and as if Moses thought this was a fit time for the sending of him: and so Cocceius is of opinion, that nothing better can be understood, than that Moses desired that God would rather send him, whom Israel expected to be sent, even the Angel that should go before them; of whose mission see Exodus 23:20, but no particular person is intended, unless himself; and the common interpretation is, that God would send a more fit and proper person than he was; and that he would rather send anyone but him, and entreats to be excused; but I see not why this may not be understood of Moses assenting to his mission, and acquiescing in the will of God; as if he should say, since it must be so, the will of the Lord be done, let him send by whom he will, and since it is his pleasure to send by me, I submit; what may seem to contradict this is, the Lord's anger and resentment expressed in the following words; but that might be notwithstanding, since Moses had been so backward and reluctant, and made so many objections before he consented.

(u) בי אדני "in me", Oleaster.

His servant,
Eric
(00/12)
:cool:
(I think this will be enough to give me the break to go off site...enjoy the discussion)

[momoz]

Katoikei,

Ah, I think I see what you’re getting at ( or do I ?J ) In the light of foreknowledge and predestination, a simple thought would be: GOD foreknew Moses’ reaction to his calling, and predestined the appointment of Aaron to be his aid. Anything before, in between, and after, in THE grand scheme of HIS will, shouldn’t matter to man, but to HIM.

Moses’ response was pre-determined and, therefore, expected. Exodus is filled with such stories, from Moses’ reluctance to his calling to Pharaoh’s hardened heart; time after time, to me, these instances are quite fascinating, and really demonstrate God’s mysterious ways.

I doubt if I can ever fully get a solid understanding of all the events that took place in the Bible. But this I know, I can understand this issue a whole lot better when I review HIS orchestrations in my own life.

God is in full control and that gives me great peace.

momoz:)

[Robert R. Higby]

Momoz: a simple thought would be: GOD foreknew Moses’ reaction to his calling, and predestined the appointment of Aaron to be his aid. Anything before, in between, and after, in THE grand scheme of HIS will, shouldn’t matter to man, but to HIM.

If seriously believed, this would indeed be a 'simple' thought that doesn't take into account the big picture of God's sovereignty. If God MERELY foreknows even one event in history (in the sense of PRESCIENCE only--which is not the Hebrew sense of foreknowledge), or if he MERELY permits any event in history without also being the ultimate cause of it, then that event is outside of his sovereignty and may indeed serve to unwind the fulfillment of his purposes.

In no way does God ever observe history by prescience and then react to it with predestined purposes. If this were true, the historical process is a hybrid: SOME events result from God's determined purposes but other events are known merely by his prescience: for these the creature would be the ultimate cause. But our passage above states:

Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

And God also made Moses stubborn & purposed to react to the stubbornness of Moses that He (God) caused by announcing a change in what he planned to do. Any time the Old Testament pictures God as repenting (changing his mind), God purposed in eternity to announce his plans to man as something different than what they actually were (in the ultimate end), then later announce that his plans had changed in reaction to actions of man that He himself caused. Jonah and Ninevah is another example of this & many others could be cited.

Some would propose that this makes God a liar: if it is proposed that he announces He is going to do something that he later plans to repent of. But such a mindset fails to recognize that all of God's purposes and actions are righteous simply because it is he who performs them. It is impossible for God to lie; He as sovereign has the right to relate himself to man as changing his mind (though in his self-existence he does not). God in history announced plans of ultimate prosperity for the nation of Israel and plans to destroy Ninevah--neither of which in his eternal decree did He ultimately plan to carry out!

Moses’ response was pre-determined and, therefore, expected. Exodus is filled with such stories, from Moses’ reluctance to his calling to Pharaoh’s hardened heart; time after time, to me, these instances are quite fascinating, and really demonstrate God’s mysterious ways.

Amen, exactly right!

[katoikei]

What amazes me momoz, is there is this movie playing, 'How God Does It I Have No Idea'. He is there at the begining of the movie, He is at the End, He is in all the inbetween parts; and all at the same time. The cherry on the cake is that He is able to watch it as well, from beginning to end simultaneously, in fast forward, rewind and slow mo, simultaneously. Plus He is resting in a rocker on the porch with His sons and daughters living in mansions of the eternal Kingdom. Do you think I am stretching it a bit too much ?

Are we looking at Exodus, or whaaaaaat ?

How about verse Exodus 4:11 - !

'And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?'

This really gives a whole new face to healing, or does it ? :)

[katoikei]

Momoz: a simple thought would be: GOD foreknew Moses’ reaction to his calling, and predestined the appointment of Aaron to be his aid. Anything before, in between, and after, in THE grand scheme of HIS will, shouldn’t matter to man, but to HIM.

If seriously believed, this would indeed be a 'simple' thought that doesn't take into account the big picture of God's sovereignty. If God MERELY foreknows even one event in history (in the sense of PRESCIENCE only--which is not the Hebrew sense of foreknowledge), or if he MERELY permits any event in history without also being the ultimate cause of it, then that event is outside of his sovereignty and may indeed serve to unwind the fulfillment of his purposes.

In no way does God ever observe history by prescience and then react to it with predestined purposes. If this were true, the historical process is a hybrid: SOME events result from God's determined purposes but other events are known merely by his prescience: for these the creature would be the ultimate cause. But our passage above states:

Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

And God also made Moses stubborn & purposed to react to the stubbornness of Moses that He (God) caused by announcing a change in what he planned to do. Any time the Old Testament pictures God as repenting (changing his mind), God purposed in eternity to announce his plans to man as something different than what they actually were (in the ultimate end), then later announce that his plans had changed in reaction to actions of man that He himself caused. Jonah and Ninevah is another example of this & many others could be cited.

Some would propose that this makes God a liar: if it is proposed that he announces He is going to do something that he later plans to repent of. But such a mindset fails to recognize that all of God's purposes and actions are righteous simply because it is he who performs them. It is impossible for God to lie; He as sovereign has the right to relate himself to man as changing his mind (though in his self-existence he does not). God in history announced plans of ultimate prosperity for the nation of Israel and plans to destroy Ninevah--neither of which in his eternal decree did He ultimately plan to carry out!

Moses’ response was pre-determined and, therefore, expected. Exodus is filled with such stories, from Moses’ reluctance to his calling to Pharaoh’s hardened heart; time after time, to me, these instances are quite fascinating, and really demonstrate God’s mysterious ways.

Amen, exactly right!

We posted simultaneously. However, I do believe that what you responded to in Momoz's comment is worthy of another AMEN!!! (especially ... all of it! :) )

His servant,
katoikei
(00/15)
:D

[momoz]

Quote from Robert ( I know, I still don’t know how to quote properly):o


If God MERELY foreknows even one event in history (in the sense of PRESCIENCE only--which is not the Hebrew sense of foreknowledge), or if he MERELY permits any event in history without also being the ultimate cause of it, then that event is outside of his sovereignty and may indeed serve to unwind the fulfillment of his purposes.

Very well put! Thank you.


Sorry, I was away for a couple of days.

Understanding predestination and foreknowledge has been great, but trying to explain or express the understanding of it, is harder than I anticipated. I need to study further.

Robert, thanks for steering my mind straight over this, it’s been a while since I was taught this doctrine. Just when I thought I got a good grasp of it, I really didn't. I put simple thought in my previous post because I found myself totally dumb when I was writing the post. Hah, you got me there.

It would be nice if you all can shed further light on this doctrine with more 'difficult' biblical passages , so I could follow along, but I have a feeling I’’ll be sent to the archives.

Katoikei, thanks for this thread , and like your new avatar too!

Momoz

[katoikei]

Quote from Robert ( I know, I still don’t know how to quote properly):o


If God MERELY foreknows even one event in history (in the sense of PRESCIENCE only--which is not the Hebrew sense of foreknowledge), or if he MERELY permits any event in history without also being the ultimate cause of it, then that event is outside of his sovereignty and may indeed serve to unwind the fulfillment of his purposes.

Very well put! Thank you.


Sorry, I was away for a couple of days.

Understanding predestination and foreknowledge has been great, but trying to explain or express the understanding of it, is harder than I anticipated. I need to study further.

Robert, thanks for steering my mind straight over this, it’s been a while since I was taught this doctrine. Just when I thought I got a good grasp of it, I really didn't. I put simple thought in my previous post because I found myself totally dumb when I was writing the post. Hah, you got me there.

It would be nice if you all can shed further light on this doctrine with more 'difficult' biblical passages , so I could follow along, but I have a feeling I’’ll be sent to the archives.

Katoikei, thanks for this thread , and like your new avatar too!

Momoz

~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~: :)

Hi Momoz,

'Ditto' to your whole post. I am equally eager for read Robert's response. The main reason I strung this thread was to hopefully drive us out of the park and into the street.

His servant,
Katoikei
(00/18)
:cool:

[katoikei]

[I]It would be nice if you all can shed further light on this doctrine with more 'difficult' biblical passages..

Sure Momoz,

I was going through Joshua and thought this one might be interesting to consider.

Joshua 10:11-14

'And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.'

Also Abraham's prayer in Genesis prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah. (Maybe after this one).

[Bacon]

What does it mean that Jehovah is sovereign?

People seem to want to say that sovereigntly=dictates every event.

Biblically sovereignty entails *judging* every event.

Ok, Joe sins. Jehovah judges Joe. Ergo, Jehovah is sovereign.

[katoikei]

Dear Bacon,

I noticed that you have dashed through the forum like a fox with the tail alight, now if you go back slowly through the thread you will notice that their is need to observe the text mentioned above and repond accordingly.

I appreciate your natural curiosity but try to be contextually relevant and attempt some for of discipline in regard to threads on this forum. I can only guess you have an axe to grind but very little axe and considerably less grind.

If you are going to make a contribution, could you at least attempt some context.