Who defines what is orthodox?

[Greg Winegar]

What say you?

[MCoving]

The word orthodox is used alot among religions but I have yet to really understand what it means. Or least never really thought about it. I looked it up in the dictionary but it seems to have a couple of meanings:
www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com)
1.of, pertaining to, or conforming to the approved form of any doctrine, philosophy, ideology, etc. 2.of, pertaining to, or conforming to beliefs, attitudes, or modes of conduct that are generally approved. 3.customary or conventional, as a means or method; established. 4.sound or correct in opinion or doctrine, esp. theological or religious doctrine. 5.conforming to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early church. 6.(initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) of, pertaining to, or designating the Eastern Church, esp. the Greek Orthodox Church. 7.(initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Orthodox Jews or Orthodox Judaism.

So are we asking who defines what is sound doctrine? Because its not really pertaining to beliefs that are generally approved.. reformed theology is definitely not common today, its in the minority. So Greg mind just quickly letting me know what ya mean by orthodox? Others pry understand but some of this is new to me, least the terminology.

Thanks,
Mary

[Brandan Kraft]

The word orthodoxy comes from the Greek ortho ('right', 'correct') and doxa ('thought', 'teaching'). (found on google)

[MCoving]

Hmm this reminds me of a friend of mine who is Catholic. I thought it absurd that one would say that as an individual we cannot trust our interpretation of the Bible. That the Bible must be interpreted by a priest. I wonder what makes them more able to interpret than another or lay person? And could not a mere man interpret the way he wants to just to confuse his congregation? I dont get why they would put their trust into one man to interpret Gods Word to them? Did not people with power in the old days keep Gods Word from others so that their interpretation would be the only one? For they pry feared if one were to read the Bible for themselves that they would rebel and go against the church. Course we cannot have independent thinkers these days right??!! (sarcasm) lol

I had this conversation with my friend and I found a couple of verses which to me seem to say we are just as capable of understanding correct doctrine as anyone else. I'd rather put my trust in Scripture and the Holy Spirit than another man anyday!

Proverbs 30:5,6, (NASB), Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.
Luke 24:45, (NASB), Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures
Acts 17:11, (NASB), for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
2 Corinthians 13:5, (NASB), Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you- unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
Rom 15:4, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=45&chapter=15&verse1=4&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=Scripture), For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

[wildboar]

Why don't these surveys ever have a none of the above option? In the ultimate sense the answer can only be "God." "Orthodox" is a combination of the Greek words orthos and doxa. The word "orthos" literally means "straight" and is used figuratively to speak of that which is correct or true. In the NT "doxa" means brightness but in other Greek literature it has the meaning of "notion" or "opinion." So orthodoxy has to do with "right opinion" or the closely related "true worship." Now does a council determine what is right teaching or does an individual? Both positions are in fact heretical. God sets the standard. It is by God's Word that we know what the right teaching is. Now modern English tends to use the word is a different way. The modern Webster's dictionary entry says:


Main Entry: 1or·tho·dox http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?orthod06.wav=orthodox'))
Pronunciation: 'or-th&-"däks
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English orthodoxe, from Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French orthodoxe, from Late Latin orthodoxus, from Late Greek orthodoxos, from Greek orth- + doxa opinion -- more at DOXOLOGY (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doxology)
1 a : conforming to established doctrine especially in religion b : CONVENTIONAL (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conventional)
2 capitalized : of, relating to, or constituting any of various conservative religious or political groups: as a : EASTERN ORTHODOX (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eastern+orthodox) b : of or relating to Orthodox Judaism
- or·tho·dox·ly adverb

You could argue that the answer relating to the councils and so forth is in conformity with definition 1a. But how could anyone arrive at the conclusion that orthodoxy is determined by the individual elect believer unless they are some kind of postmodern pluralist and think everyone is orthodox? Sounds kind of new age and its kind of scarry that it got 100% of the vote. It's pretty scarry that people would think either answer was acceptable. Even with the modern definition, would that meant that the individual elect believer is conforming to his own established teachings and therefore orthodox so person a could teach that God is triune, person b could teach modalism, person c could teach that God is a frog, and as long as they continued in such belief they would be orthodox?

[Eileen]

Why don't these surveys ever have a none of the above option? In the ultimate sense the answer can only be "God." "Orthodox" is a combination of the Greek words orthos and doxa. The word "orthos" literally means "straight" and is used figuratively to speak of that which is correct or true. In the NT "doxa" means brightness but in other Greek literature it has the meaning of "notion" or "opinion." So orthodoxy has to do with "right opinion" or the closely related "true worship." Now does a council determine what is right teaching or does an individual? Both positions are in fact heretical. God sets the standard. It is by God's Word that we know what the right teaching is.


Are you saying that the elect believer then cannot know ‘correct teaching’ or ‘right thought’, only God knows that? Does not the Holy Spirit teach us Truth? Perhaps the word ‘orthodoxy’ has connotations that I don’t relate to and perhaps it was a wrong choice of words but my thinking was the priesthood of every believer to follow their conscience in what they believe the WORD teaches. Every true believer believes Truth because it is revealed to them, is Truth not correct thinking? So are you objecting to the word ‘orthodox’ only, would you use a different word or do you see it all differently?

Eileen~

[Greg Winegar]

Why don't these surveys ever have a none of the above option? In the ultimate sense the answer can only be "God." "Orthodox" is a combination of the Greek words orthos and doxa. The word "orthos" literally means "straight" and is used figuratively to speak of that which is correct or true. In the NT "doxa" means brightness but in other Greek literature it has the meaning of "notion" or "opinion." So orthodoxy has to do with "right opinion" or the closely related "true worship." Now does a council determine what is right teaching or does an individual?It apears that you have your own opinion/definition on what orthodox is.
Both positions are in fact heretical.Am I correct in my understanding that any of us that voted for #2 would be heretics in your opinion?
God sets the standard. It is by God's Word that we know what the right teaching is.Agreed. However, I would also interject that there is a little something to do with God's writing on our hearts comming into play and Eileen's mention of the preisthood of the believer.
You could argue that the answer relating to the councils and so forth is in conformity with definition 1a. But how could anyone arrive at the conclusion that orthodoxy is determined by the individual elect believer unless they are some kind of postmodern pluralist and think everyone is orthodox? Sounds kind of new age and its kind of scarry that it got 100% of the vote. It's pretty scarry that people would think either answer was acceptable.I think you should quit holding back and tell us all how you really feel about all of us here.
Even with the modern definition, would that meant that the individual elect believer is conforming to his own established teachings and therefore orthodox so person a could teach that God is triune, person b could teach modalism, person c could teach that God is a frog, and as long as they continued in such belief they would be orthodox?Yes person A could teach whatever and so could person B. The poll said the elect believer, not Mr. arbitrary and his band of troublemakers(unless you're refering to those guys in the first choice). How can you make a statement like this if you haven't decided what is orthodox. The synapses had to fire at some point when you agreed, concured or dare I say it you decided what it was you thought was orthodox.

[rlhuckle]

At first blush I wanted to choose option A -- as that is what I was churched to believe and what most books teach on the subject. However, while that is the "standard" teaching of the institutional churches; in reality and practicality, it is option B that I have actually lived by ever since I began to comprehend the sovereign grace of God. The old habits die hard.

I used to read others to see if my understanding was wrong; now I find myself reading others to see if their understanding is right. I trust the Holy Spirit to lead me into the truth--via God's word and like-minded believers. Never since have I questioned God's timing in this (even when I was/am in error) --besides, it wouldn't do any good anyway :D.

Regardless, no matter what we choose to believe, the truth remains. One knows it, or one doesn't--all in God's time. Each MUST define it for themselves as the Lord leads. Councils are of men, truth is of God. If by chance the twain should meet occasionally, it is by no means any justification to choose councils over conscience.

[MCoving]

Wildboar of course God determined what is orthodox! Duh!! What do you think we are a bunch of apes here? Come on.. the real question is from there who interprets the correct understanding within' Gods Word? because many religions use the Bible we have today, an example Catholics.. So how does one know the correct doctrine? Or what is orthodox? There are so many different doctrines and ideas out there who decides which ones are the true/right doctrines? Who defines what is orthodox?? Do you believe the priests, counsels, creeds, etc?? Or do you believe it is the elect believer? It is not merely the believer alone.. for we all know the Holy Spirit teaches us Truth, that Gods laws are written on our hearts.. we can very well take His Word and know the Truth WITHOUT any creed, priest, counsel, etc to tell us what is orthodox. I can even tell if I have a wrong doctrine because I'll cont. to read the Scriptures and find verses that contradict my beliefs. One doesn't need another to tell them what is wrong and right, we have Gods Word for that. Now an fyi I do believe God uses people and others to tell us what is wrong and right... the point being we dont need (its NOT a must have) a priest to interpret when one has the Word and Holy Spirit.

So again.. Gods Word spoken to us and made known to us by the Holy Spirit is what defines orthodox, correct doctrine.

Mary

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Neither of these choices are correct.

[wildboar]

Are you saying that the elect believer then cannot know ‘correct teaching’ or ‘right thought’, only God knows that?

The question was "Who defines what is orthodox?" God does that. I can come to know through God's Word what is orthodox but I am not the definer of orthodoxy.

[Eileen]

The question was "Who defines what is orthodox?" God does that. I can come to know through God's Word what is orthodox but I am not the definer of orthodoxy.

Thanks, I see your point. Perhaps the question was worded incorrectly but I think we understood what Greg was asking...



At first blush I wanted to choose option A -- as that is what I was churched to believe and what most books teach on the subject. However, while that is the "standard" teaching of the institutional churches; in reality and practicality, it is option B that I have actually lived by ever since I began to comprehend the sovereign grace of God. The old habits die hard.


I can relate 100% to what you said here, I took some time to even answer because of the above...but came to the same conclusion. When I disagree with something from the pulpit, something from the 'father's, etc. I am in effect believing that it is the Holy Spirit who teaches me, not man! Thanks Roger.

Eileen~

[rlhuckle]

The question was "Who defines what is orthodox?" God does that. I can come to know through God's Word what is orthodox but I am not the definer of orthodoxy.

Maybe some confusion lies in the objects of the verbs. Each individual MUST define (for themselves) what is orthodox--either as being led by the Holy Spirit or by "what is right in their own eyes." God's purpose in this stands.

Another question is "who defines what is orthodox for others" --and history proves that councils of men have taken on that role for themselves. Politics and compromise have always marked this endeavor--and those that were truly led of the Spirit have always paid a human price for their rebellion against these tools of men.

Islam is not the only religious tradition that has promoted a "convert or die" doctrine, eh?

[~JM~]

I voted Church fathers. [it was the either/or that forced my vote]

[MCoving]

I voted Church fathers. [it was the either/or that forced my vote]

Curious... who are the Church fathers? And why do you think they know correct doctrine better than another? What if they dont and get one thing wrong will that shatter your convidence in them to correctly interpret Gods Word? Why rely upon another man to interpret what the Bible teaches to be correct doctrine? Do you not have faith that the Holy Spirit in you will bring to light His Word and Truths?

Food for Thought....
Jn 14:26, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=43&chapter=14&verse1=26&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=Holy+Spirit), "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Col 3:16, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=51&chapter=3&verse1=16&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=Spirit+teach), Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Ps 25:5, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=19&chapter=25&verse1=5&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=teach), Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; For You I wait all the day. Ps 25:9, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=19&chapter=25&verse1=9&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=teach), He leads the humble in justice, And He teaches the humble His way.
Ps 143:10, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=19&chapter=143&verse1=10&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=teach), Teach me to do Your will, For You are my God; Let Your good Spirit lead me on level ground.
1 Jn 2:27, (NASB) (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&version=nasb&book=62&chapter=2&verse1=27&verse2=&ascdesc=&abrv=1&strip=0&converge=0&footnotes=0&createchaps=1&compare=0&andor=0&restrict=&startbook=&endbook=&references=&highlight=1&chaplinks=&remove=&keywords=teach), As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

[Robert R. Higby]

While it is true that God alone defines what is orthodox, it is extremely relevant to ask who it is that properly INTERPRETS and ILLUMINATES the orthodoxy given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit: the fathers and councils of "the church" as defined by men or the elect body of Christ.

[wildboar]

Maybe some confusion lies in the objects of the verbs. Each individual MUST define (for themselves) what is orthodox--either as being led by the Holy Spirit or by "what is right in their own eyes."

Says who? What is orthodox for myself makes no difference.


Curious... who are the Church fathers? And why do you think they know correct doctrine better than another? What if they dont and get one thing wrong will that shatter your convidence in them to correctly interpret Gods Word? Why rely upon another man to interpret what the Bible teaches to be correct doctrine? Do you not have faith that the Holy Spirit in you will bring to light His Word and Truths?


Wouldn't your statements also apply to members of this board? Why does it always seem in various Baptist groups that the church Fathers were not filled with the Holy Spirit but me and my sectarian group are? If we shouldn't consult man at all in interpreting the Scriptures then we better stop posting and we better stop reading.

[Greg Winegar]

Originally Posted by rlhuckle
Maybe some confusion lies in the objects of the verbs. Each individual MUST define (for themselves) what is orthodox--either as being led by the Holy Spirit or by "what is right in their own eyes."

Says who? What is orthodox for myself makes no difference.This is a true statement if the person who makes it is not regenerate.


Originally Posted by mcoving
Curious... who are the Church fathers? And why do you think they know correct doctrine better than another? What if they dont and get one thing wrong will that shatter your convidence in them to correctly interpret Gods Word? Why rely upon another man to interpret what the Bible teaches to be correct doctrine? Do you not have faith that the Holy Spirit in you will bring to light His Word and Truths?

Wouldn't your statements also apply to members of this board? Why does it always seem in various Baptist groups that the church Fathers were not filled with the Holy Spirit but me and my sectarian group are? If we shouldn't consult man at all in interpreting the Scriptures then we better stop posting and we better stop reading.First of all, we are not a baptist group. Second, I don't think any of us here would say that the elect could not be found within the baptist and other sectarian camps. It's just that those brothers haven't been awakened yet. And third, all of us here read others, even those we disagree with because it sharpens us. We just don't put any stock into the churchian views of those so called fathers and churchmen from history, or those from today, whose message adds any THING (baptism, communion, church membership, et el) to the gospel of Jesus that Paul preached.

And as far as not posting or reading goes, were you planning on leaving?

[MCoving]

Says who? What is orthodox for myself makes no difference.



Wouldn't your statements also apply to members of this board? Why does it always seem in various Baptist groups that the church Fathers were not filled with the Holy Spirit but me and my sectarian group are? If we shouldn't consult man at all in interpreting the Scriptures then we better stop posting and we better stop reading.

So? So what if I read and discuss with other likeminded believers? Thats a whole lot different than saying church fathers determine what is orthodox! I dont even say that Brandan, Greg, or any of the moderators here determine what is orthodox for me. And I dont know.. the church fathers could have been filled with the Holy Spirit, I really dont know their theology that well or their life to judge them. I know some weren't as they taught a false gospel. My point is I dont full rely upon anyone to tell me what is orthodox. I rely full upon Gods Word and Holy Spirit to tell me what is correct doctrine. Does that mean I stop learning from others, or discussing theology with others? NO! Not by any means, as Greg says it sharpens us. We discuss things, search thru the Bible, I hear different ideas I go to the Bible.. so in the end who has the FINAL authority in what is orthodox? God.. the Bible, which is taught to me thru the Holy Spirit. I cannot full trust humans but I can fully trust the Spirit. So if you want to rely upon a human to define your correct doctrine.. go ahead. But its not for me...

Mary

[rlhuckle]

Says who? What is orthodox for myself makes no difference.

Sure it does. It is that which you (and I) personally promote as orthodoxy to others--else you (we) would not call it so. Of course what we say is orthodox for us individually (and seek unity upon) may or may not align with that which God deems orthodox--but that is another issue.





Wouldn't your statements also apply to members of this board? Why does it always seem in various Baptist groups that the church Fathers were not filled with the Holy Spirit but me and my sectarian group are? If we shouldn't consult man at all in interpreting the Scriptures then we better stop posting and we better stop reading.

Straw man. Anything anyone promotes as orthodoxy must be measured against the Scriptures as revealed by the Holy Spirit. It is this concept that most councils and leaders in the institutional church WANTED to keep hidden (and still do) from the mostly uneducated masses (pun intended). All of this is according to God's plan and purpose of course.

The Holy Spirit leads all to seek unity in the faith, so any discussion about who is "filled with the Spirit" must depend upon doctrine. God has gifted the church with teachers and we all continue to consult what men have written and spoken regarding spiritual matters. However, error is always present (lurking) because of sin, but the true Gospel still shines. The Holy Spirit is promised to continue the process of sanctification--so each must stand by one's own conscience; our liberty in Christ.

[wildboar]

So? So what if I read and discuss with other likeminded believers? Thats a whole lot different than saying church fathers determine what is orthodox! I dont even say that Brandan, Greg, or any of the moderators here determine what is orthodox for me. And I dont know.. the church fathers could have been filled with the Holy Spirit, I really dont know their theology that well or their life to judge them. I know some weren't as they taught a false gospel. My point is I dont full rely upon anyone to tell me what is orthodox. I rely full upon Gods Word and Holy Spirit to tell me what is correct doctrine. Does that mean I stop learning from others, or discussing theology with others? NO! Not by any means, as Greg says it sharpens us. We discuss things, search thru the Bible, I hear different ideas I go to the Bible.. so in the end who has the FINAL authority in what is orthodox? God.. the Bible, which is taught to me thru the Holy Spirit. I cannot full trust humans but I can fully trust the Spirit. So if you want to rely upon a human to define your correct doctrine.. go ahead. But its not for me...


I think I've made it abundantly clear that I agree with the underlined statement. I've already stated that I disagree with both of the bad choices given in the survey. The second option assumes that I am infallible. The second option assumes that I can learn nothing from any Christian who has ever walked the earth. I don't see how the second option is in any way better than the first and can see a whole lot of ways in which it is worse. If someone holds to the second position then there is no reason to post or to read the posts of others. Since I do not hold to the second position there is no inconsistency in me posting.

[rlhuckle]

I think I've made it abundantly clear that I agree with the underlined statement. I've already stated that I disagree with both of the bad choices given in the survey. The second option assumes that I am infallible.

How so? Do you not decide which teachings you agree with and which teachings you do not agree with (as aligning with your personal understanding of God's word)? Do you blindly adopt the teachings of others without question and do you assume yourself infallible in this regard? Why read it into the poll?


The second option assumes that I can learn nothing from any Christian who has ever walked the earth.

Really? How so--again? As the eunuch said, how can we understand unless one teach us? Of course God is able to bring His own to Himself regardless of human means, but iron sharpening iron is what is described as the norm in Scripture.


I don't see how the second option is in any way better than the first and can see a whole lot of ways in which it is worse. If someone holds to the second position then there is no reason to post or to read the posts of others. Since I do not hold to the second position there is no inconsistency in me posting.

Any inconsistency that you see is merely read into the question and answers (in my opinion). You decide what is orthodox in the same way as all of us here. We all claim to be led of the Spirit, but God is not the author of confusion. Measure all against the Scriptures and trust the Holy Spirit is all any can do.

If you claim the Spirit leads you to trust councils of men, so be it; I have found men to be untrustworthy (including myself) historically. All in God's time. Those who are God's have the mind of Christ, but the flesh battles against the Spirit. The flesh is lazy, it would always rather somebody else do the work and define the truth for them. Others diligently seek the pearl of great price--as God ordains. A great many actually think they have found it and have stopped looking--which is exactly what some of the men who lead them desire. This too is as God ordains.

[MCoving]

The second option assumes that I am infallible.

No it does not! Your assumption is wrong... I was once told the funny line that when you assume.. you make an a** out of u and me. You are reading too much into the second option. There is two primary distinctions throughtout history in who defines correct doctrine or interprets the Bible.. one group says priests, councils, etc.. a higher leadership while the other says even a mere man can interpret the word. Actually in either courts humans can get it wrong.. You know we dont believe that humans are infallible only God is perfect. DUH! So you have NO LOGIC in assuming the second options means humans are infallible.



The second option assumes that I can learn nothing from any Christian who has ever walked the earth.

Again wrong! And you are assuming reading too much into the poll. Where does it say that because orthodoxy is defined by the elect individual that they learn nothing from any other believer?? I dont see that anywhere, there's is NO CLUE to even assume the second options says we cant learn from others. I pick the second option, and I also say that I can learn from others, and I also say that I am not infallible. So now in knowing what I believe... INSTEAD OF JUST ASSUMING NOW... what say you? Would you pick the second or first option??

You have the truth I say its the second option, that I still learn from others, and that I am not perfect, I can make mistakes.. so what is it then? Does the elect individual interpret correct doctrine or the councils, fathers, creeds, etc??

Mary

[Robert R. Higby]

The elect are both individual believers and a corporate body. Correct interpretation is something that we come to both as individuals and as a group of believers in communion.

If any church council sanctioned a particular truth, it was only what the elect of Christ already believed on the matter in contrast to error. If any church council sanctioned a particular error, it was contrary to the Holy Spirit annexed to the Word that had historically worked among the elect.

The real issue here goes back to freedom of conscience and the priesthood of the believer: Luther affirmed both but historically these concepts have been limited to economic freedom, social justice, and freedom from government tyranny. They have not yet been applied to freedom from church tyranny in a very significant measure.

[~JM~]

While it is true that God alone defines what is orthodox, it is extremely relevant to ask who it is that properly INTERPRETS and ILLUMINATES the orthodoxy given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit: the fathers and councils of "the church" as defined by men or the elect body of Christ.

;)

[MCoving]

Also, another way to look at it is say you have two doctrines. The church fathers or other councils believe A is true while you've seemed to read verses in the BIble that contradict it. I cant think of a good example at the moment maybe its just because Im waking up. In this situation how would peoples view of who defines orthodoxy affect this? If someone chose option A in the poll they would ignore their questions, and the Scriptures in the Bible that conradict the father's belief and just believe the church fathers. Or they'd ignore verses that came up that seem to contradict councils and creeds because of course the church must have interpreted this right and the individual is just reading the Bible wrong.

Now with option B in the poll the individual would wonder about the differences, and the verses that came up in Scripture. They'd continue seeking out answers, reading more of the Bible, finding verses that have the same topic. They'd by no means just drop it and trust the church fathers, mere men. They'd continue to investigate weighing every option, examing the Scriptures to see what is True. And the Holy Spirit would be their guide into all Truth. And in the end they would rely upon Gods Word and the Spirit to illuminate the Truth in this doctrine.

Its fine looking to church fathers and asking what they believe.. but there's trouble when one says they define what is orthodox.. they alone interpret Truth. It is not the church of this world... but the church of God, the elect individuals which interpet what is orthodox. Anyone who has the Holy Spirit within' them...

Mary

[rlhuckle]

Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
While it is true that God alone defines what is orthodox, it is extremely relevant to ask who it is that properly INTERPRETS and ILLUMINATES the orthodoxy given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit: the fathers and councils of "the church" as defined by men or the elect body of Christ.

Doesn't 1Cor 14 have an answer this question? :D

[Robert R. Higby]

Are you trying to bring the debate about prophecy into this Roger? :D

Thanks to all for your great responses.

On your point Mary, the conclusion is what you said: the individual believer has the FINAL 'buck stops here' authority in interpreting scripture--not a church organization. I know that our position is considered radical by historic churchmen--but it is the only one that possibly honors the spirit of the New Testament gospel and the best perspective on all history.

Even in human government and politics this is true. We are to submit to the authority of those that govern--with the exception of submission to laws that are against God. It is also left with the individual (in communion with other citizens and their informed ideas) to discern which ideas are correct with human government and who to vote for.

The final decision on whether to indulge any food, drink, drug, vitamin, supplement, or substance is also left to the individual in communion with other well-informed people. For the Christian those people are elect believers.

So it is with the proper interpretation of scripture and discernment of God's truth. We are to consult the testimony of other elect believers, both in the current time and throughout past history. But after all of arguments are hashed through on any issue, the final decision on what any person is to believe regarding God and His revelation to mankind rests in the mind of each soul. Nothing else can qualify as every-believer priesthood and freedom of conscience.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby
While it is true that God alone defines what is orthodox, it is extremely relevant to ask who it is that properly INTERPRETS and ILLUMINATES the orthodoxy given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit: the fathers and councils of "the church" as defined by men or the elect body of Christ.

Doesn't 1Cor 14 have an answer this question? :D

Brother Ruckle, I believe you have the right idea.

I know this will probably be ignored but I will give my opinion any way.

I believe if we truly want to know what is orthodox we should study the scriptures along with prayer and depend of God to show us what is orthodox.

If you are not an awakened elect of God there is no way this will happen.

As an elect of God, if I put all my trust in the so-called church fathers to assign to me what is orthodox, then I set myself up for believing the doctrines of men.

Ref: Eph 4:14.

If I place all my confidence in what I think as an elect of God, then perhaps I might come to think too highly of myself as mentioned in Romans 12:3.

But rather let me be able to say as David did in Psalms 131:1 "Lord my heart is not lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me."





Lynn

[rlhuckle]

Brother Ruckle, I believe you have the right idea.

I know this will probably be ignored but I will give my opinion any way.

I believe if we truly want to know what is orthodox we should study the scriptures along with prayer and depend of God to show us what is orthodox.

If you are not an awakened elect of God there is no way this will happen.

As an elect of God, if I put all my trust in the so-called church fathers to assign to me what is orthodox, then I set myself up for believing the doctrines of men.

Ref: Eph 4:14.

If I place all my confidence in what I think as an elect of God, then perhaps I might come to think too highly of myself as mentioned in Romans 12:3.

But rather let me be able to say as David did in Psalms 131:1 "Lord my heart is not lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me."





Lynn

Yes, and we should remember 1Thess 5:11-13 and Phi 2:1-3 also.

[wildboar]

Are there some general principles that could be given to determine who the elect believers are that we are to consult with? I see this as easily turning into a circular argument. A person who comes to a particular interpretation merely determines that anyone who disagrees with them in not elect.

[MCoving]

Are there some general principles that could be given to determine who the elect believers are that we are to consult with? I see this as easily turning into a circular argument. A person who comes to a particular interpretation merely determines that anyone who disagrees with them in not elect.

No. That would be more carpenterism. Just because someone doesn't agree completely in ever doctrinal position doesn't mean the person is not elect. Just because I come to a particular interpretation of one verse and someone else doesn't... does not mean they are not elect. Take John and Bob right now talking about interpretation of verses in the Bible and faith in Christ vrs faith of Christ. They both see each other as elect individuals just because they have different views doesn't mean that the other is not elect.

The point I am trying to make in this thread doesn't have to do with who is elect who is not.. the point is individual elect interpret what the Bible says is orthodox, they rely upon Gods Word and nothing else. They dont rely upon church fathers, creeds, councils, history, etc to tell them the so called "correct" way to interpret Gods Word. They are not afraid to take a stand for what they believe Gods Word to be saying... course all men are not perfect and thus can be wrong. But we rely upon the Holy Spirit working in a believers life to teach all Truth and to lead them to a sound understanding of Gods Word. We dont rely upon church fathers, creeds, councils, history to lead us to a sound understanding of Gods Word BUT God Himself. Make sense??

Mary

[rlhuckle]

Are there some general principles that could be given to determine who the elect believers are that we are to consult with? I see this as easily turning into a circular argument. A person who comes to a particular interpretation merely determines that anyone who disagrees with them in not elect.

Doesn't Paul address this in Galatians? Plenty of general principles there,eh? BTW, All arguments are circular--they either begin and end with man or begin and end with God. :D

[Saint Nicholas]

I guess I'm a little late to vote on this poll since it is closed, however I will post my views. I'm sure or at least hope, that all of us would agree that God alone is the Ultimate Definer of truth!

Now with that said, being that we were created with a mind to think, darkened in sin of course, that still would not empower the minds of the (many) to overule the mind of the (one) individual elect soul. So I decide, determine, and define, what is orthodox.

Now let me qualify this I that is talked about. First of all I am not my own but am bought and owned by Christ. So Christ decides what I define.
Now if I define what is wrong, I am wrong, but Christ would still be right. Now if I define what is right, then I would be right also with Christ. In all of this it is still I who makes the determination and not a collective bunch of individuals corporatly, who decides and defines for me what I should think.

Now of course I am nothing without the illumination and guidence of the Holy Spirit and the written word.

What are coucils, creeds, synods, etc. etc., but a consensus of opinions of sinful men like myself. So in conclusion, why should I relinquish my soul to the opinions and definitions of others. If I am right or I am wrong, it is still I who decides and answers to God alone for my actions.

Thank you Lord for the Gospel.

Nicholas

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

I guess I'm a little late to vote on this poll since it is closed, however I will post my views. I'm sure or at least hope, that all of us would agree that God alone is the Ultimate Definer of truth!

Now with that said, being that we were created with a mind to think, darkened in sin of course, that still would not empower the minds of the (many) to overule the mind of the (one) individual elect soul. So I decide, determine, and define, what is orthodox.

Now let me qualify this I that is talked about. First of all I am not my own but am bought and owned by Christ. So Christ decides what I define.
Now if I define what is wrong, I am wrong, but Christ would still be right. Now if I define what is right, then I would be right also with Christ. In all of this it is still I who makes the determination and not a collective bunch of individuals corporatly, who decides and defines for me what I should think.

Now of course I am nothing without the illumination and guidence of the Holy Spirit and the written word.

What are coucils, creeds, synods, etc. etc., but a consensus of opinions of sinful men like myself. So in conclusion, why should I relinquish my soul to the opinions and definitions of others. If I am right or I am wrong, it is still I who decides and answers to God alone for my actions.

Thank you Lord for the Gospel.

Nicholas

And this is exactly the reason I voted yes.

[Prakk]

Let's talk about the "Seat of Moses" as Jesus did.

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Let's talk about the "Seat of Moses" as Jesus did.

Feel free to start a new thread on this particular topic.

[Prakk]

"Feel free to start a new thread on this particular topic."I think it has something to do with Orthodoxy. The question I'd like to examine is this: Since Christ DOES say that, clearly at that time there was something that constituted orthodoxy. At least it seems that way to me. If so, this takes it out of the hands of the individual elect believer. Let me quote the verses: Mat 23:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=23&translation=kjv&x=12&y=6#) Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Mat 23:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=23&translation=kjv&x=12&y=6#) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: Mat 23:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=23&translation=kjv&x=12&y=6#) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Mat 23:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=23&translation=kjv&x=12&y=6#) For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.

Hugh McBryde