Did Satan fall from grace?

[Greg Winegar]

Jesus says in: Jn 8:44, (KJV), Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[Whammer]

I like how this particular passage of scripture (also in the NASB, ESV, NKJ) from Jesus own mouth shows what satan's NATURE is, this is the best place to start for a definition that comes from God Himself. This is one of those doctrines that arise (devil was a good angel went bad) from the idea that God could not possibly have created evil/sin..........supposedly that would make Him evil.:eek:
I am glad however that God's use of this evil instrument is only for a short time, then He will dispose of him into the place prepared for him and his seed:)

[MCoving]

This is a nice poll.. I remember talking about this at the conference a year ago. I so.. used to think that Satan fell from grace. I know that to not be true by the verse that Greg posted. However, I wouldn't mind an explanation from some of the verses that people use to so call "prove" their side of the story that Satan fell from grace.

For example they will use Ezekiel 28:13-19 as evidence that Satan fell from grace. However who are they really talking about? Talks about someone in Eden, garden of God. And someone who was blameless from the day they were created until unrighteousness was found in them. Verse 12 seems to address this response to the king of Tyre?

And also who is being talked about in Isaiah 14:11-17?? Because that is another verse that is used to explain that Satan fell from Heaven.. talks about star of the morning, son of the dawn. How he wanted to rise above God's kingdom. (age old proof text for this wrong theology.. which I was taught in Sunday School).

Okay... now this one really gets me I haven't been able to understand these verses, you might of course want to read the text around it as well. I dont get most of Revelations though... so maybe this isn't before the world began but sometime at the end? I dont know..

Rev 12:7-10, (NASB)
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

And this part also...
Revelations 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

So actually now that I read that in Revelations I'm almost confused!! yikes?!! Help with this??? :confused: Also Satan is in heaven? No place found for them after waging war so thrown down? I dont get it...

Thanks,
Mary

[jmgipson]

Gen 3:1
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (KJV)

Some say this was a snake indwelt by Satan!

Isa 27:1
1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. (KJV)

Why would God punish a snake (serpent).

Job 26:13
13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. (KJV)

God did not form a perfect cherub named Lucifer who then became the crooked serpent.

Isa 54:16
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. (KJV)

1 Cor 10:10
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. (KJV)


Exod 12:23
23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. (KJV)


John

[jmgipson]

I have a question though. Is any creature sinful (evil) before the first act of disobedience? If so how do you support this?

John

[Whammer]

I have a question though. Is any creature sinful (evil) before the first act of disobedience? If so how do you support this?

John

This could probably go under another thread, but I think it is obvious from the start of Genesis. And dont get me wrong, I think that breaking the comandment in the garden brought in fact just what God said it would, that aside.........1 Tim. 2:14, 2 Cor. 11:3, Mat. 7:18, Luk. 6:43 and 1 John 2:16 all help to shed light on Gen. 3.
Also Rom. 7:7-13.
I think it is obvious that when satan entered the garden himself, he was evil already......one would also have to notice that the very thing God commanded about the forbidden tree......was that is was the "tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL"
I think the very facts that God turned the devil loose in the garden (some think he snuck in without God knowing it....right:rolleyes: ), he set the tree up and then gave a law concerning it to show that God knew all along what earthy man is. (John. 3:31)
Since God has purpose in all this (Rom. 9:11......eternal election, Eph. 1:3-11 and 1 Pet. 2:9.....God purposed to make a people in Christ to the praise of His glorious grace from eternity) it is a very good thing that things unfolded the way they did. This does not mean that evil is not evil, or sin is not sin........they are what they were created to be, and we have no right to define then as being anything other than what they are.
One other thing that has to be kept in mind is the fact that the spiritual man (1st born, only begotten, Jesus) is different in a huge aspect from the earthy man (adam).........when temptation came to Him (Jesus), He demonstrated that He could not be tempted with evil.......because he had no nature to sin......He experienced the temptation in a body just like ours, but He Himself was (and IS, and ALWAYS WILL BE) sinless.
People who like to make the 1st adam out to be holy, pure, without a nature to sin.....make him out to be equal to Jesus in His holiness which is blasphemous (more satanic poison as he in his deceptions to men has only one primary focus......shots at God's glory and majesty)
Now looking at Gen. 3:1-7 as the tempter comes to Eve, notice as the conversation develops that Eve adds words to God's original command.......is that a good thing? Notice that prior to her even eating the fruit.......she is already deceived, her mind is already convinced that God has lied and it will be okay to proceed to obtain the wisdom God has withheld from them.........did satan make Eve and Adam sin? Was the law an unholy stumbling block? No....these things were set in motion to show what God Himself already new to be true.........they were sinful....they themselves to use Jesus' analogy were rotten trees and brought forth the fruit of what they were.
Much more can be said, but I think as usual, the Holy Spirit decides what to illumine in His time to those whom He decides to in this matter of what is revealed in scripture, same as the rest of the scripture.:)

[Whammer]

And also who is being talked about in Isaiah 14:11-17?? Because that is another verse that is used to explain that Satan fell from Heaven.. talks about star of the morning, son of the dawn. How he wanted to rise above God's kingdom. (age old proof text for this wrong theology.. which I was taught in Sunday School).



Rev 12:7-10, (NASB)
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

And this part also...
Revelations 12:12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

So actually now that I read that in Revelations I'm almost confused!! yikes?!! Help with this??? :confused: Also Satan is in heaven? No place found for them after waging war so thrown down? I dont get it...

Thanks,
Mary

Hey sis, I dont think that the fact that satan's access to heaven (like he used to have.....Job being a good example of what the accuser of the brethren looks like) is no longer granted till the final judgement, has to be confusing. Look at Dan. 7:13-14, Luk. 10:18, and Rev. 5 along with Col. 2:15 (in their contexts of course as well)
It is no surprise that the elect angels that serve by God's design for the sake of the elect (Heb. 1:14) are involved at the time of Christ's death-resurrection-ascension. The devil, prior to these events, had a greater sphere to roam in, now that Christ has taken His seat (Heb. 1:2-4) and finished the work of salvation, he has been "thrown down" as the scripture says, and his time is short as he knows that soon he will reside in only one sphere of existence with all his God-given power and aurthority stripped.....the lake of fire.
1 thing to remember, a change of sphere (location) does not equal a change in "nature" (like Jude 6).
As far as the other verses in Isa and Eze, it is no surprise that men in past times have called themselves gods and used every conceivable description to set themselves up as "the most high god" (also like The most High) in their futile earthly minds, nor that they would set up "images" of themselves (or demons) and demand worship (paslm 135), nor is it a surprise that as the "children of the devil" they would not be his servants and take pleasure in doing his bidding............just keep doing more and more what you already are sis....prayerfully meditating on and reading the scriptures:)

[jmgipson]

This could probably go under another thread, but I think it is obvious from the start of Genesis. And dont get me wrong, I think that breaking the comandment in the garden brought in fact just what God said it would, that aside.........1 Tim. 2:14, 2 Cor. 11:3, Mat. 7:18, Luk. 6:43 and 1 John 2:16 all help to shed light on Gen. 3.
Also Rom. 7:7-13.
I think it is obvious that when satan entered the garden himself, he was evil already......one would also have to notice that the very thing God commanded about the forbidden tree......was that is was the "tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL"
I think the very facts that God turned the devil loose in the garden (some think he snuck in without God knowing it....right:rolleyes: ), he set the tree up and then gave a law concerning it to show that God knew all along what earthy man is. (John. 3:31)
Since God has purpose in all this (Rom. 9:11......eternal election, Eph. 1:3-11 and 1 Pet. 2:9.....God purposed to make a people in Christ to the praise of His glorious grace from eternity) it is a very good thing that things unfolded the way they did. This does not mean that evil is not evil, or sin is not sin........they are what they were created to be, and we have no right to define then as being anything other than what they are.
One other thing that has to be kept in mind is the fact that the spiritual man (1st born, only begotten, Jesus) is different in a huge aspect from the earthy man (adam).........when temptation came to Him (Jesus), He demonstrated that He could not be tempted with evil.......because he had no nature to sin......He experienced the temptation in a body just like ours, but He Himself was (and IS, and ALWAYS WILL BE) sinless.
People who like to make the 1st adam out to be holy, pure, without a nature to sin.....make him out to be equal to Jesus in His holiness which is blasphemous (more satanic poison as he in his deceptions to men has only one primary focus......shots at God's glory and majesty)
Now looking at Gen. 3:1-7 as the tempter comes to Eve, notice as the conversation develops that Eve adds words to God's original command.......is that a good thing? Notice that prior to her even eating the fruit.......she is already deceived, her mind is already convinced that God has lied and it will be okay to proceed to obtain the wisdom God has withheld from them.........did satan make Eve and Adam sin? Was the law an unholy stumbling block? No....these things were set in motion to show what God Himself already new to be true.........they were sinful....they themselves to use Jesus' analogy were rotten trees and brought forth the fruit of what they were.
Much more can be said, but I think as usual, the Holy Spirit decides what to illumine in His time to those whom He decides to in this matter of what is revealed in scripture, same as the rest of the scripture.:)

Hey Bryan,
Thanks for your post. I understand all that, but what I am trying get my mind wrapped around is something created sinful. It is not that I disagree, but the term doesn't make sense if to be sinful one has to commit sin first. I had always thought that the serpent was created the same time as all other creation and while in the garden with man and woman, this is where he also sinned. He lied to the woman, amongst other things. I am not saying he was anything else other than what he was, but I can understand if he was created in the same position as the man and woman. Just a thought.

John

[MCoving]

Hey Bryan,
Thanks for your post. I understand all that, but what I am trying get my mind wrapped around is something created sinful. It is not that I disagree, but the term doesn't make sense if to be sinful one has to commit sin first. I had always thought that the serpent was created the same time as all other creation and while in the garden with man and woman, this is where he also sinned. He lied to the woman, amongst other things. I am not saying he was anything else other than what he was, but I can understand if he was created in the same position as the man and woman. Just a thought.

John

I'm confused... so are you saying that the man, women and the serpent were created not sinful? Created perfect? Everything except God and pry the angels huh is created sinful. Well I doubt animals are but beings like Satan are created sinful. The only perfect being, all knowing, omni everything is God Himself. Satan was not sinless, man was not created sinless. I dont believe that men are created good, and not sinful and then are sinful when they sin. Their nature is a sinful nature.. their nature is not perfect. When they sin this is then revealed to them... however God always knows that they are sinful beings even if they are blameless at first and without any sins commited. Does that makes sense?

Mary

[Greg Winegar]

I have a question though. Is any creature sinful (evil) before the first act of disobedience? If so how do you support this?

JohnJesus said that Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, where do you get the idea from that he had to commit some act to be a sinful (evil) being. If Christ said that is what he was from the beginning what could come before? He hit the ground running. It's his nature. He is reprobate. He does not have some latent goodness. He is incapable of pleasing God.

If you don't have two seeds, you have free will. It can't be about a creature's actions but about what they were created to be.
Rom 9:11, (MKJV), (for the children had not yet been born, neither had done any good or evil; but that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who called,)Either we all have a choice, or God has already chosen from eternity who is what, before they ever act.

[jmgipson]

Jesus said that Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, where do you get the idea from that he had to commit some act to be a sinful (evil) being. If Christ said that is what he was from the beginning what could come before? He hit the ground running. It's his nature. He is reprobate. He does not have some latent goodness. He is incapable of pleasing God.

If you don't have two seeds, you have free will. It can't be about a creature's actions but about what they were created to be.Either we all have a choice, or God has already chosen from eternity who is what, before they ever act.

Yes Greg, I understand and I agree this is what scripture says. From his beginning he was a liar and a murderer. What I am asking is do you think first of all that we can place Satan's creation at the same beginning as Adam? The reason I am curious is because for me to make sense of being this liar and murderer it places his beginning at the same time frame as Adam and Eve. To say that Satan was created as a law breaker is fine, but this does not become what he is until he breaks a law. Therefore if he lied to Eve and by this deception all mankind was killed (died), this makes more sense to me. I may not be seeing something real obvious (it wouldn't be the first time) :D . Otherwise how can a creature be declared to be a liar and a murder from the beginning if there has been no lie or murder?

John

[Greg Winegar]

To say that Satan was created as a law breaker is fine, but this does not become what he is until he breaks a law. Therefore if he lied to Eve and by this deception all mankind was killed (died), this makes more sense to me. I may not be seeing something real obvious (it wouldn't be the first time) :D . Otherwise how can a creature be declared to be a liar and a murder from the beginning if there has been no lie or murder?John, you are a man. Perhaps you are a happy man. Did you have to do something to be that happy man, or is it something intrinsic to who and what you are? The action doesn't make you something. God declares what you are before you have done anything.

Reprobation or election are not about what beings have done, are doing or will do, it's about what they have been decreed to be.
To say that Satan was created as a law breaker is fine, but this does not become what he is until he breaks a law.This is a false statement. If God decrees Satan as a law breaker, he is one from eternity - not from the point that he first breaks the law.

Our view of reality is linear, but God says:
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. His view is eternal. He determines what beings are by His decree, not by what they do. In other words, what a being does is determined by what it has been decreed to be; it's "nature" is not determined by what it does.

[jmgipson]

John, you are a man. Perhaps you are a happy man. Did you have to do something to be that happy man, or is it something intrinsic to who and what you are? The action doesn't make you something. God declares what you are before you have done anything.

Reprobation or election are not about what beings have done, are doing or will do, it's about what they have been decreed to be.This is a false statement. If God decrees Satan as a law breaker, he is one from eternity - not from the point that he first breaks the law.

Our view of reality is linear, but God says:His view is eternal. He determines what beings are by His decree, not by what they do. In other words, what a being does is determined by what it has been decreed to be; it's "nature" is not determined by what it does.

I will once again use Adam as an example to try and make what I mean clearer. I am most likely not stating things the way I am thinking.

Would you say this about Adam:
Adam was created upright. He had a Natural righteousness in that he was holy according to the laws given to him. That is he had not yet sinned. He had not committed an act of outward rebellion yet (so he was innocent in that sense) but when he did rebel it was because of the sinful heart God had given him. I know that sin does not flow from pure holiness (the clean thing cannot come out of an unclean thing).

Is it possible that this would apply also to the serpent. Now remember, I am only applying this to 2 creatures. Adam had no human father and the serpent had no father. This is what I am trying to say. When God writes this verse about satan being a liar from the beginning in scripture I don't believe he is using the verse to tell us that there never was a time that Satan wasn't a liar (eternal), I truly believe He is telling us that even this creature as Adam, had a sinful heart from the first day of their creation. Maybe I am blowing smoke, but I am not sure why we would be told there was a beginning instead of saying he was a liar before the foundation of the world.

John

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

I have much to say about this particular topic, and I believe to be one of christiandumbs many mistakes...

Hopefully I'll get around to it soon, but for now let me point out to things;

1) "lucifer" only occurs in the KJV ONCE. The context Isaiah 13:1-14:28(?) is speaking about the king of babylon.\

2) The passages in Ezekiel are speaking about the prince of Tyrus.

[MCoving]

I have much to say about this particular topic, and I believe to be one of christiandumbs many mistakes...

Hopefully I'll get around to it soon, but for now let me point out to things;

1) "lucifer" only occurs in the KJV ONCE. The context Isaiah 13:1-14:28(?) is speaking about the king of babylon.\

2) The passages in Ezekiel are speaking about the prince of Tyrus.

1) Where else in the Bible does it describe the king of babylon? For example how could I prove to someone that those verses are talking about king of babylon and nothing else?

2)OK.. so who is the prince of Tyrus and how was he in the Garden of Eden? I'm so lost with that verse..

Thanks Scott!!!!

Mary

[Whammer]

1) Where else in the Bible does it describe the king of babylon? For example how could I prove to someone that those verses are talking about king of babylon and nothing else?

2)OK.. so who is the prince of Tyrus and how was he in the Garden of Eden? I'm so lost with that verse..

Thanks Scott!!!!

Mary

Sis, I'll give you a very short take on this, and it is my belief from things I have gleaned personally, so only for what its worth here......in reading the passage in Isaiah, remember, there were no chapter divisions in the original writings, so look at the flow of things in what is called ch. 13 thru 22...the flow of things is judgement on the various nations of men.
As far as the passage in Eze. 28, start with ch 27 and pay closer attention then to 28:2 and 28:19, and though God certainly speaks to His elect differently that he does the reprobate........look at the sarcasm/taunt He uses with Job......Job. 38:3 (38-41).....how much more will God taunt the reprobate that makes false claims......Psa. 2:4-5.

Did not the nations around Israel hear things over the years about their God? Had the nations never heard about Israel's temple.....the holy of holies, the ark and the cherubim that covered the mercy seat? Had they not heard of the origins of man? What claims have been made by these who set themselves up as gods to be worshipped.....think about these things in light of 2 Cor. 2:11.
There is alot of other things that could be said..........:)

[Robert R. Higby]

Mary: So actually now that I read that in Revelations I'm almost confused!! yikes?!! Help with this??? :confused: Also Satan is in heaven? No place found for them after waging war so thrown down? I dont get it...

Both in Job and in Zechariah 3, Satan is affirmed to have had access to the heavenly realms in the Old Era. He was the ACCUSER of the brethren then and so Revelation affirms this. The throwing down of Satan and his angels was not pre-creation, it was post-Christ's death and resurrection victory! Since then they have no access to God and the heavenly courts as accusers of God's elect; the justification constituted in Christ's work forever ended any ability of Satan to accuse.

In the OT king and kingdom are interchangeable, so the king of Babylon refers to the kingdom of Babylon administered through a series of kings. the judgment described in Isa. 14 is what fell on Belshazzar, the last king of Babylon, in Dan. 5.

The judgment on the king of Tyre in Ezek. 28 refers to the ultimate destruction of that monarchy. The 'Eden' reference is parallel to some sort of covenant relationship that was entered into by a king of Tyre with Israel & later broken by that nation (hence the 'walking between the stones', etc.)

Why would anyone think that Isa. 14 and Ezek. 28 refer to anyone else than the kingdoms mentioned when they are ALL that is mentioned??

--Bob

[MCoving]

Mary: So actually now that I read that in Revelations I'm almost confused!! yikes?!! Help with this??? :confused: Also Satan is in heaven? No place found for them after waging war so thrown down? I dont get it...

Both in Job and in Zechariah 3, Satan is affirmed to have had access to the heavenly realms in the Old Era. He was the ACCUSER of the brethren then and so Revelation affirms this. The throwing down of Satan and his angels was not pre-creation, it was post-Christ's death and resurrection victory! Since then they have no access to God and the heavenly courts as accusers of God's elect; the justification constituted in Christ's work forever ended any ability of Satan to accuse.

In the OT king and kingdom are interchangeable, so the king of Babylon refers to the kingdom of Babylon administered through a series of kings. the judgment described in Isa. 14 is what fell on Belshazzar, the last king of Babylon, in Dan. 5.

The judgment on the king of Tyre in Ezek. 28 refers to the ultimate destruction of that monarchy. The 'Eden' reference is parallel to some sort of covenant relationship that was entered into by a king of Tyre with Israel & later broken by that nation (hence the 'walking between the stones', etc.)

Why would anyone think that Isa. 14 and Ezek. 28 refer to anyone else than the kingdoms mentioned when they are ALL that is mentioned??

--Bob

Thanks Bob! I think I got a little better handle on those verses now. And you are right people tend to breeze by certain verses just so that their theology will stand. IN both Isa. and Ezek. it mentions kings specifically which I noticed but couldn't in Ezek. explain the Eden reference. I see now in Isaiah how even before Chapter 14 it talks about Prophecies of Babylon, and vs.4 says "that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say" So why would someone say something to the King of Babylon and then switch it to Satan? That would make no sense and be wrong. Yet many religions use these verses just like that.. and forget who the "you" is referring to.. that it is the king of Babylon, not Satan.

Also in Ezek. it is address to the leader of Tyre, addressed to the king of Tyre.. twice actually. So unless people think Tyre is Satan it wouldn't make sense to interpret these verses how they do. However, previous chapters talk about the judgement of Tyre, lament over Tyre and before that is the judgement on Gentile nations. So from the context it isn't talking about Satan at all but these kingdoms judgements like Bryan said.

So if these verses are interpreted wrong by other religions... and revelations is interpreted wrong.. than they are left with no defense or anything to stand on. And thus the only verse (their may be more but I dont know what they are???) to base ones theology of Satan on is this one:
Jn 8:44, (NASB), "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Well thanks so much for peoples responses! I think I have a clearer understanding now. And may be able to clearer communicate this to others who ask me.

Mary

[Calvinator]

Satan could not have fallen from grace, because one of the aspects of grace is that it keeps one from falling. Satan was never in God's grace.

[Robert R. Higby]

Thanks for your response Mary, I truly can see that you get it on this one!

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

There's a post relating to the so-called "fall of satan" account. You can read it here (http://www.predestinarian.net/showpost.php?p=49624&postcount=3)

Now, concerning the verses in Ezekiel;

A good understanding about the topic at hand can be developed by backing up a bit in chapters; after all this is a book. ;)

Before we come to Ezekiel chapter 28, verses 14-19 (http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?view=1&restrict=0&keywords=&startbook=0&endbook=0&references=0&andor=0&ascdesc=&highlight=1&chaplinks=1&passage=&book=26&version=kjv&chapter=28&verse1=14&verse2=19&abrv=1&createchaps=1) there are three previous chapters to examine which will assist in getting a clearer understanding of what's taking place in chapter 28.

Ezekiel 25 sets the stage for a judement against the nations.

[Ezek 25:1-2, (KJV)] "... The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against the Ammonites, and prophesy against them;"


Ezekiel 26 begins the prophecy against Tyrus;

[Ezek 26:1-3, (KJV)] "... And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up."


Ezekiel 27 begins the lamentation of Tyrus, and goes on to describe her great riches and commerce;

[Ezek 27:1-3, (KJV)] "... The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Now, thou son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyrus; nd say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty."


Ezekiel 28 gives a "forthteling" of the judgement to take place on the price of Tyrus;

[Ezek 28:1-8, (KJV)] "... The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas."


Obivously, the book doesn't stop here...

The "judgment of the nations" continues in the next few chapaters; and in likewise fashion (as the detailed trangressions of Tyrus mentioned in chapters 26-28) the prophet Ezekiel goes on to provide the audience with a similar outline of the transgressions of Egypt, and the "lamentation" for her and the prophecy against Pharaoh. (See chapters 30-32).

Finally we get to chapters 33 & 34 where God command Ezekiel to speak to the "children of His people" about the duties of the "watchman"... I'm assuming God is speaking about the watchmen placed in apostate Israel because chapter 33 speaks also about th fall of Jerusalem. Later we find chapter 34 dealing with a prophecy against the sinful shepherds of Israel.

Basically, to keep it short, considering the subject matter spanning over MANY chapters within the same book, there's a very good chance isolated verses ARE NOT dealing with "fallen angels". For them to do so doesn't make sense considering the CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT.

Mind you, there are those who would apply some sort of typography to justify the interpretations that define their beliefs.

[Calvinator]

I would say the Satan did not fall from grace for two reasons. First, Satan was not in God's Grace. Second, if you understand Grace, then you would know that it is impossible to fall from Grace.

John