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Jep
11-15-2001, 02:58 PM
The short answer to address the question of how the world will end is: it won’t. But that is something we need to address later as we get well into the book of Revelation. Those of you who have embraced me in discourse know by now that I am heavily into Bible prophecy.

I would like to start from the beginning and tell why I believe as I do. Feel free to drop in and straighten me out if I’m wrong or have misinterpreted the Bible, or even if you just have a point or question or simply think I‘m nuts, no matter of your knowledge level in this area. This is how we learn from one another.

Let’s begin with some prophecies concerning the country of Israel and it’s role in the last days.

First Israel would have to be restored as a nation: Isaiah 66:8 predicts “Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.”

Could Isaiah be foretelling that Zion (Israel) will be born as a nation all at once in one day? On May 14th, 1948, against all odds, it miraculously occurred. The world knew that the chances were almost nonexistent favoring formation of this little rag-tag country. Israel was hated by all surrounding neighbors to the point that if they tried to annex land that many believed rightfully belonged to the Palestinian people, or if they proclaimed themselves a state, they would be annihilated by armies much superior to themselves. But Israel stood on the promises of almighty God and proclaimed statehood anyway. Against those odds she is today a mighty country. And look at what the Bible says about how she would look:

When Israel was restored in 1948, the Jews found their land to have suffered much from drought and over grazing. Today if you visit, you will drive modern roads lined with the bountiful beauty of green fields of crops, orchards and pastures.

This was predicted: "He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bus, and fill the face of the world with fruit" (Isaiah 27:6).

"And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes" (Isaiah 35:7).

Today, Israel is the world’s third leading exporter of fruit.

As the Jews were scattered beginning in 70 AD and finishing with the Bar-Kochba revolt against Rome in 132 AD, Hebrew largely fell out of use as the newer generations were raised in their new environments. Yet the Bible predicted this would not last: "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent" (Zephaniah 3:9).

Today, the means of communication to over five million Jews in Israel is again one language, Hebrew.

And although it is predicted that Israel will reform as it has, just as we are seeing in these last days, it will have no peace until all is settled after the tribulation: Jeremiah 8:11 “They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. "Peace, peace," they say, when there is no peace.”

And as Israel gets closer to the great tribulation, also called “Jacob’s trouble” in parts of the Bible, we can see that peace is ever eroded until the time of tribulation is upon us: Jeremiah 30:5 "This is what the LORD says: "`Cries of fear are heard-- terror, not peace. 6 Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale? 7 How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it. 8 "` In that day,' declares the LORD Almighty, `I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them.

The reason that Israel had to have been restored for the last days to advance upon mankind is that both the Old Testament and New predicts that Christ will rule the world from Israel, and more precisely, Mt. Moriah (which was formally Mt. Zion) from a Temple where presently the Moslem mosque Dome of the Rock is located. John the revelator tells us that he saw a new city called the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven from which Christ will rule the earth.

Isaiah also saw a similar vision in the Old Testament: Isaiah 2:2 In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

In fact, ALL Bible prophecy is either based on Christ, the ancestors of Christ, His country, Israel, or the church which sprang from the 12 tribes of Israel. And to understand this prophecy, we will have to also some of the history surrounding this nation.

In the Dawning era of world government at the time of the first establishment of the Nation of Israel, the powers of the world were few.

God had instructed Abraham to leave his hometown city of Ur in Babylonia and to go into the land of Canaan and create the nation of Israel. But after Abraham’s death a famine hit the area causing his descendants to move the tribes of Israel to Egypt.

The Bible reports this was a disaster for the young nation, as they eventually lost their status as a sovereign nation and were delegated to the position of little more than slaves.

But Egypt had a positive effect on these people as well for when they entered that country, their population was only around 70, but when they left, they left as a nation numbering in the millions.

After 400 years in Egypt, God picked Moses as their leader. He initiated the great exodus and led the Israeli people back to their promised land, the land of Canaan.

Canaan was located north of Egypt and southwest of the Euphrates Valley. In this land of milk and honey, also called the Fertile Crescent because of its geographical lay and its rich, fertile soils, the sovereign nation of Israel was finally forged and settled into an era of growth.

Of course, other peoples had settled Canaan after their 440 year absence (400 in Egypt and 40 on the trip home) and Israel did not just walk back in and unpack their bags. Wars, skirmishes and military conflict with others was prevalent in their early history as a nation.

However, over the course of four or five hundred years, and under the guidance of competent leadership, most notably Kings David and Solomon, the nation of Israel became a mighty people.

After the peaceful reign of Solomon had ended, the country of Israel fell into disagreement and divided. The northern part of the country contained 10 of the 12 tribes and came to be known simply as Israel. The southern half retained the other two tribes, Benjamin and the tribe of Judah from whence Jesus would later arise. It became known as Judah, with the city of Jerusalem as its capitol.

Around 750 BC the first assault on Israel by a major world empire occurred when King Tiglath-pileser III of Assyria conquered much of the then known world. Miraculously enough, Judah was not invaded and its people abducted; however, Israel was decimated and captured. The country of Judah was only made to pay tribute in the form of money to the king.

God continued to bless Judah for another 150 years until it was time for their difficulty.

We now turn to the Book of Daniel. Where true end-time prophecy really begins.

GRANTM
11-18-2001, 07:50 PM
Hi Jep:
Up until now being a skeptic of Christianity I have stayed away from all other boards. but seeing that you and I have had disscussions on this board (skeptology) and you have won my respect. and seem to appreciate where I'm coming from ,not that we agree..

I would like to ask wether you feel that the Christian "end time"
is inevitable? And by extension, If you feel that Christianity is Therefore a fatalistic religion.

Jep
11-23-2001, 03:12 PM
“Up until now being a skeptic of Christianity I have stayed away from all other boards. but seeing that you and I have had disscussions on this board (skeptology) and you have won my respect. and seem to appreciate where I'm coming from ,not that we agree.”

ME: Well thanks. I respect the beliefs of others and have found no one that I agree with100%. I think you’ll find, as I did, that the Christians on this board are most intelligent, very respectful of others, yet very diverse in their beliefs. That’s what makes this forum a great place to exchange ideas on theology. You seem to fit in very well on this board.

“I would like to ask wether you feel that the Christian "end time"
is inevitable? And by extension, If you feel that Christianity is Therefore a fatalistic religion.”

ME: I never really considered my faith from that perspective until now. But if you are to ask me this point blank as you just did, then my answer would have to be yes. I’ve read the end of the book and just as Christianity had a beginning, it will come to an end in the earthly realm as we know it. Of course, according to my New Testament, so will Judaism, as Paul teaches us that “All of Israel will be saved” to share this place called heaven with us, which is really right here on earth in Jerusalem. As to when these end times will begin, I believe with what we are seeing in the world around us, they are beginning right now. I’m just waiting for the man called Antichrist to emerge from either the Eastern or Western split of the revived Roman Empire to set in motion a 7 year tribulation in which WW III will come about.

Steven
11-23-2001, 10:32 PM
Hey Jep

Jep,Im one that believes this present earth and this present heaven will pass away.I will give you some verses(paraphrased)as to why I believe this to be the case.


The first earth and the first heaven are passed away,and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth(according to bible scholars there are three heavens,so heaven here might be refering to the atmosphere)who knows.

And the heavens and the earth were rolled up as a scroll,and there was no more place found for them.

And the elements shall melt with ferverent heat.

And they (the devil and his followers at the end of the millenial kingdom)shall compass about the camp of the saints,and god shall rain fire down upon them from heaven.

I believe this is when the earth is destroyed,I also believe this is the second ressurection because the next seen is the great white throne judgement.

I believe the world without end will be the new heaven and earth,behold all things are become new and the old has passed away.



thankyou jep


Steven

Jep
11-24-2001, 01:14 PM
“Jep,Im one that believes this present earth and this present heaven will pass away.I will give you some verses(paraphrased)as to why I believe this to be the case.”

ME: Really, I’m afraid I’ll appear a little wishy washy on the issue. I am familiar with the scriptures you pointed out to me. I do know that the earth will not be destroyed before the millennial reign of Christ. After the millennium, Satan is loosed from his prison for awhile. One more rebellion occurs. But those who rebel are destroyed. Satan is thrown into Hell. The great white throne judgment is held. And finally the end. A new heaven and earth is brought forth. A new Jerusalem is created; and then time-less eternity, which suggests that our forth dimension will be altered. But my point was that there always will be an earth. Yet I have to agree with you that the old one is destroyed and a new one emerges.

“I believe this is when the earth is destroyed,I also believe this is the second ressurection because the next seen is the great white throne judgement.”

ME: Why do you believe the second resurrection will occur during this time? Perhaps you mean the third? I believe the resurrection of the church (the second) is the 5th seal of Revelation when suddenly men from earth are seen wearing white robes in heaven. This is before the wrath is poured out beginning with the 7 trumpets in the 7th seal.

Steven
11-24-2001, 10:26 PM
Hi Jep


Jep,I dont have any disagreements with you ie the new heavens and new earth.

Jep I would like to address the issue,of a pretrib resurection tho.

Rev.4:1 And the first voice I heard was as a trumpet talking to me,;wich said COME UP HITHER.

Jep I believe this to be the first resurection(rapture)and I will show you why I believe that way.

Rev.4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw 4 and 20 elders sitting clothed in white rainment;;and they had on their heards crowns of gold.

Now lets examine the 24 elders here to see whom they are!


First lets go with the white rainment they are clothed with.

Rev. 3:18 and white rainment that thou mayest be clothed,and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear.

First of all nakedness in this verse refers to sin,as God made coverings for the nakedness of adam and eve with the skins of rams,so has he made coverings for us with the righteousness of christ.

Theses ram skins are a shadow of heavenly or spiritual things to come.

when Christ died the spiritual was come no more do men sacrifice rams to God.

Rev.He that overcometh the same shall be clothed in white rainment.


So the white rainment seems to be representitive of those that have over come the world,by being born of God.

! john 5:4 whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world.



Next lets look at the crowns of gold!


Rev.3:18 I council thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire that thou mayest be rich.


Rev. 3:10 Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life.

2 tim.4:8 Hence forth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,

Next lets look at the place where the 24 elders are seated.

Rev.3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,even as I also overcame and an set down with my father in his throne.

Now this part gets a little tricky because it says the elders were seated around the throne,the other verse says they will be seated in his throne,but this is not a problem since we also have verses stating that christ after commiting one sacrifice sat down on the right hand of the father til his enemies be made his footstool.

next lets look at Rev. 5:8-9 And when he had taken the book,the four beasts and the four and twenty elders fell down before the lamb,having everyone of them harps,and golden vials full of odours,wich are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song,saying,thou art worthy to take the book,and to open the seals thereof;FOR THOU WAST SLAIN,AND HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THE BLOOD OUT OF EVERY KINDRED,AND TONGUE ,AND PEOPLE,AND NATION.


Now lets look at how we come to the conclusion that the # 24 represents the bride of christ.

Rev.21:12 and had a wall great and high,and had 12 gates,and at the gates 12 angels,and names written thereon,wich are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of israel.

Rev. 21:14 and the wall of the city had twelve foundations,and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the lamb.

Jep this would seem to indicate that the # 24 represents the bride of Christ,from the promise made to abraham to the first resurection or rapture.

As we have seen the bride of Christ is sitting in heaven before they trumpet and bowel judgements ever begin.

No more after rev.4 do we see any mention of the bride of christ as being seen on earth.


Now I will address the question of who those souls are seen under the altar.

Rev.6:9 ands when he had opened the fifth seal,I saw under the altar the souls of them wich were slainfor the word of God,and for the testimony wich they held.

Rev. 9:17 since this is very long I will pick out the verses i want to point out to you.

9:13 and one of the elders answered saying unto me,what are these arrayed in white robes,and whence came they?

9:14And I said unto him,sir thou knowest,and he said to me,these are they wich came out of the great tribulation,and washed there robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.

Rev.20:4 and I saw thrones and they that sat upon them and judgement was given unto them.

Im assuming this is the bride seated on these thrones,verses like,know ye not that ye shall judge angels,and ye shall judge men,are clues to who is sitting on these thrones

rev.20:4and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of jesus,and for the word of God,and wich had not worshipped the best,neither his image,neither had recieved his mark upon their foreheads,or in their hands,and they lived and reigned with Christ a 1000 yrs.

First off lets distinguish between these souls and the 24 elders

these souls are distinguished by being mentioned as souls,also by the fact that they were killed during the great tribulation.

the 24 elders are not mentioned as being souls at all

Rev.20:4-6 is just a rehash and a finishing of the scriptures in rev. chapters 5 and 6.
the finishing being that they should wait a little season until their brethren should be killed as they were.


Rev.4:16 so then because thou art luke warm,and neither hot nor cold,i will spew thee out of my mouth.

this i believe will take place directly after the first resurection(rapture)because god wont spew out his own children,i remember a vers somewhere,cant remember exactly where,that says,come out of her my children that ye partake not of her sins, its in rev. i believe.

noiw god will send strong delusion on them that they would believe a lie,so i personally dont believe the church will have any chance of salvation after the rapture.

Another thing is the dispensation requires that the oracles of god be returned to the jews,the church minstry will be thru,having been spewed out by god,and the 144000 jews will preach the word of god throughout the world during the rein of antichrist.


On this point jep I think I will leave off,if you would like to go into this part we can later,but i think we will probably first be digesting a few of the other things i have written.

Good day Jep

Steven