GRANTM
11-16-2001, 07:01 PM
Right Right. We can argue about Time in another thread and how it effects God or how God effects it. This thread is about evolution
A request by VWV
My first rebuttal and critiques to JEP from the evolution thread
for Inital statements please refer back to to the evolution forum
Hi Jep: Have a Great Thanksging day Nothing I love more than a good theoretical debate, Save for.. but thats for a completely different Forum.
{ME: *BUZZER* Wrong--sorry. Time is the movement of matter in relationship to other matter. this would exist whether man did or not. For example the rotation of the earth around the sun is time. Can we measure this time progression? Yes, of course. With nothing more complicated than a sun dial.}
Ergo Time connot be a constant. Iit is mankinds wants to measure this. it is irrelevant to god. Mankinds desire to finite
the universe and categorize everything that time measure exists . Mankinds desire for more order and complacency in life
developed the wants for more refined measurement.
But the major problem with time still exists how can you measure something that is a Variable
How accurate would our watches be say on mars they would all have to be recalibrated to martian standards,
you might counter that a second is still a second but as atomic clocks have shown, you can say precisely what time it is the US mid- west and what time it is precisely In London Eng.
But why then if you calibrate a precise instrument according to an atomic clock Take off and land in London there is a time loss.
Quote
{ ME: Matter is very dependent on space and could not exist without it. How could something exist if you had no height, width, or depth in which to place it? Nothing can exist without somewhere to exist.}
Only because our terms of reference deem it to be so, But lets assune that our terms of reference are absolute and correct.
The fact that matter can occupy the same space at the same time
at that point of junture the three dimensional universe within that microcosm is severly distorted.
Quote
{ME: Man’s four dimensions are height, width, depth and time. There are others, but not applicable to man in his environment.}
I definately agree with you about the possiblity of other dimensions but Disagree with you on the nomenclature of time being the fourth( please correct me if i have misinterpreted
your meaning.) we can manipulate all the other dimensions to fit our needs, we can theoretically send a person into the future limited only by our technology, but no teccnology can bring them back from it. Time is our calibration of events and therfore cannot be a dimension. as for the others not being applicable
it is only so if we let it be so.
Quote:
ME: Space is finite and there is no such thing as non-motion. Can you think of any examples in our real universe of non-motion? (other than us placing matter at 0 degrees Kelvin, of course).
Strongly disagree: space cannot be finite, space is not avoid
or emptyness but is full of particles seen, unseen , etc. If space was finite the three dimensional effect of compression of these
Particles would cause the universe to contract,
With your acknowledgemnt of 0d K you acknowledge non-motion therefore non-motion can exist.
Looking forward to your rebuttles
__________________
go in peace all things are great
Jeps second rebuttal
Junior Member
Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Mid-West USA
Posts: 31
“Ergo Time connot be a constant. Iit is mankinds wants to measure this. it is irrelevant to god.”
ME: I agree that time is irrelevant to God. The spirit world is not restrained by petty man’s fourth dimension. And yes, it is only organisms who wish to measure it. But not just man. My cat’s know fully well when the alarm is supposed to go off. My dog will go to meet the schools bus at the time it’s due. Animals seem to have a clock placed within them by the creator.
“Mankinds desire to finite the universe and categorize everything that time measure exists . Mankinds desire for more order and complacency in life developed the wants for more refined measurement.”
ME: Well, I’m afraid that the universe finited itself--Actually I guess God did, since He created it. Eternity is time measurement, and infinity is distance measurement. Our universe has a finite distance. In fact, the universe has boundaries that, through euclidian geometry, we can show is expanding into itself. Strange, but true. Therefore, if you could start at one edge of our universe and walk to the opposite side, you would have traversed it, yet you would be right back where you started from. In my humble opinion only God could have created something this weird.
“But the major problem with time still exists how can you measure something that is a Variable. How accurate would our watches be say on mars they would all have to be recalibrated to martian standards,”
ME: You bring up a very valid point. We would have to embrace Einstein’s theory of relativity to understand this. All things are relative depending on one’s perspective. Indeed, time would be different to a Martian than it would be to an Earthling.
“But why then if you calibrate a precise instrument according to an atomic clock Take off and land in London there is a time loss.”
ME: But in reality there is no time loss. It’s just man’s perspective of time changing, and when he travels he must change that perspective. Since time is the movement of matter, and we are in a different position on one of the entities moving, then yes, we would view time differently in London. Yet, when I call my wife at home, time is still the same there.
“I definately agree with you about the possiblity of other dimensions but Disagree with you on the nomenclature of time being the fourth( please correct me if i have misinterpreted your meaning.)”
ME: No, I don’t think you misunderstand my position. Let me see if I can show you how time works in reality concerning dimensions. I’m going to construct for you a three dimensional map of our solar system using planets tied together with wire as many middle school students use in their science fair projects. I’m going to then enclose this structure in a cage of Plexiglas from which you can make measurements from boundary to boundary. I bring this to your home and leave it with you. Then I call you at 8:00 the next morning and ask you to plot the position of the sun on your map so I can see where it’s at in relation to the other planets. I then arrive at 4:00 that afternoon to see where the sun is at.
ME: But this is not accuracy. Because the sun is in a different position at 4:00 than where it was when you plotted it at 8:00 that morning. Wow....You are going to have to use four calculations to show me this. These might be: 10” of height, 12” of depth, 16” of width at 8:00 EST. Now I can find the sun and we encounter all four dimensions.
“If space was finite the three dimensional effect of compression of these
Particles would cause the universe to contract,”
ME: No, that would only be caused by a change in density of the universe. Infinity is a measure of distance. Not density. And I see you gave me no examples of non-motion.
__________________
Peace on earth and good will to all men is not just for Christmas. Peace, Jep
11-16-2001 04:07 PM
A request by VWV
My first rebuttal and critiques to JEP from the evolution thread
for Inital statements please refer back to to the evolution forum
Hi Jep: Have a Great Thanksging day Nothing I love more than a good theoretical debate, Save for.. but thats for a completely different Forum.
{ME: *BUZZER* Wrong--sorry. Time is the movement of matter in relationship to other matter. this would exist whether man did or not. For example the rotation of the earth around the sun is time. Can we measure this time progression? Yes, of course. With nothing more complicated than a sun dial.}
Ergo Time connot be a constant. Iit is mankinds wants to measure this. it is irrelevant to god. Mankinds desire to finite
the universe and categorize everything that time measure exists . Mankinds desire for more order and complacency in life
developed the wants for more refined measurement.
But the major problem with time still exists how can you measure something that is a Variable
How accurate would our watches be say on mars they would all have to be recalibrated to martian standards,
you might counter that a second is still a second but as atomic clocks have shown, you can say precisely what time it is the US mid- west and what time it is precisely In London Eng.
But why then if you calibrate a precise instrument according to an atomic clock Take off and land in London there is a time loss.
Quote
{ ME: Matter is very dependent on space and could not exist without it. How could something exist if you had no height, width, or depth in which to place it? Nothing can exist without somewhere to exist.}
Only because our terms of reference deem it to be so, But lets assune that our terms of reference are absolute and correct.
The fact that matter can occupy the same space at the same time
at that point of junture the three dimensional universe within that microcosm is severly distorted.
Quote
{ME: Man’s four dimensions are height, width, depth and time. There are others, but not applicable to man in his environment.}
I definately agree with you about the possiblity of other dimensions but Disagree with you on the nomenclature of time being the fourth( please correct me if i have misinterpreted
your meaning.) we can manipulate all the other dimensions to fit our needs, we can theoretically send a person into the future limited only by our technology, but no teccnology can bring them back from it. Time is our calibration of events and therfore cannot be a dimension. as for the others not being applicable
it is only so if we let it be so.
Quote:
ME: Space is finite and there is no such thing as non-motion. Can you think of any examples in our real universe of non-motion? (other than us placing matter at 0 degrees Kelvin, of course).
Strongly disagree: space cannot be finite, space is not avoid
or emptyness but is full of particles seen, unseen , etc. If space was finite the three dimensional effect of compression of these
Particles would cause the universe to contract,
With your acknowledgemnt of 0d K you acknowledge non-motion therefore non-motion can exist.
Looking forward to your rebuttles
__________________
go in peace all things are great
Jeps second rebuttal
Junior Member
Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Mid-West USA
Posts: 31
“Ergo Time connot be a constant. Iit is mankinds wants to measure this. it is irrelevant to god.”
ME: I agree that time is irrelevant to God. The spirit world is not restrained by petty man’s fourth dimension. And yes, it is only organisms who wish to measure it. But not just man. My cat’s know fully well when the alarm is supposed to go off. My dog will go to meet the schools bus at the time it’s due. Animals seem to have a clock placed within them by the creator.
“Mankinds desire to finite the universe and categorize everything that time measure exists . Mankinds desire for more order and complacency in life developed the wants for more refined measurement.”
ME: Well, I’m afraid that the universe finited itself--Actually I guess God did, since He created it. Eternity is time measurement, and infinity is distance measurement. Our universe has a finite distance. In fact, the universe has boundaries that, through euclidian geometry, we can show is expanding into itself. Strange, but true. Therefore, if you could start at one edge of our universe and walk to the opposite side, you would have traversed it, yet you would be right back where you started from. In my humble opinion only God could have created something this weird.
“But the major problem with time still exists how can you measure something that is a Variable. How accurate would our watches be say on mars they would all have to be recalibrated to martian standards,”
ME: You bring up a very valid point. We would have to embrace Einstein’s theory of relativity to understand this. All things are relative depending on one’s perspective. Indeed, time would be different to a Martian than it would be to an Earthling.
“But why then if you calibrate a precise instrument according to an atomic clock Take off and land in London there is a time loss.”
ME: But in reality there is no time loss. It’s just man’s perspective of time changing, and when he travels he must change that perspective. Since time is the movement of matter, and we are in a different position on one of the entities moving, then yes, we would view time differently in London. Yet, when I call my wife at home, time is still the same there.
“I definately agree with you about the possiblity of other dimensions but Disagree with you on the nomenclature of time being the fourth( please correct me if i have misinterpreted your meaning.)”
ME: No, I don’t think you misunderstand my position. Let me see if I can show you how time works in reality concerning dimensions. I’m going to construct for you a three dimensional map of our solar system using planets tied together with wire as many middle school students use in their science fair projects. I’m going to then enclose this structure in a cage of Plexiglas from which you can make measurements from boundary to boundary. I bring this to your home and leave it with you. Then I call you at 8:00 the next morning and ask you to plot the position of the sun on your map so I can see where it’s at in relation to the other planets. I then arrive at 4:00 that afternoon to see where the sun is at.
ME: But this is not accuracy. Because the sun is in a different position at 4:00 than where it was when you plotted it at 8:00 that morning. Wow....You are going to have to use four calculations to show me this. These might be: 10” of height, 12” of depth, 16” of width at 8:00 EST. Now I can find the sun and we encounter all four dimensions.
“If space was finite the three dimensional effect of compression of these
Particles would cause the universe to contract,”
ME: No, that would only be caused by a change in density of the universe. Infinity is a measure of distance. Not density. And I see you gave me no examples of non-motion.
__________________
Peace on earth and good will to all men is not just for Christmas. Peace, Jep
11-16-2001 04:07 PM