Ressurection of police officer

[Andrew]

Very interesting account. Well, its up to you guys to believe or not.

http://www.wof.org.ua/eng/church/svid/svid2.htm

[Debbiek]

Cool!!! Praise God!!!

[smugg]

Assuming this is a legitimate account, it does very little to counter my skepticism.

For one thing, how do we know it was God and not Odin or Brahma who brought this man back from the dead?

Then there's the question of why God does this so rarely. I mean, at any hospital on any given day there are men of science bringing people back from the dead using drugs, electricity and breathing machines -- no magic at all.

No, this man just had a very emotional experience and likes to think it was Abraham's god who helped him out.

I think it's a shame this guy had a team of doctors and other hospital staff working on him for weeks and now that he's better they don't get any credit because he's so anxious to use it as a witnessing tool.

By the way, I would think that most of the Christians on this board would be skeptical of this account as well since the guy describes an out of body experience. I thought the Bible was pretty clear that nobody goes to heaven until after the Rapture...

Very new age.

[Debbiek]

The Bible is very clear that Jesus raises people from the dead. Most Chrisitans believe all of the Bible, not leaving out parts that are hard to understand.

[smugg]

Originally posted by Debbiek
The Bible is very clear that Jesus raises people from the dead. Most Chrisitans believe all of the Bible, not leaving out parts that are hard to understand.

Yes, but it doesn't support floating around the room and ascending to heaven before the Resurrection. I understand that people are brought back from the dead in the Bible, that's not the part of the story that's New Age -- it's the Out of Body Experience part that's unbiblical.

[Debbiek]

Look at Acts & Rev. & Eze. for examples. Although they don't use the phrase "out of body experience" they do say"in the spirit". Paul does say somewhere," I don't know if I was in the body or spirit, only God knows ". Same thing, but they wern't dead.

[smugg]

Originally posted by Debbiek
...but they wern't dead.

...because the dead wait for the great and terrible day of the Lord:

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

[Debbiek]

HOw about Lazurus? We believe Jesus still performs miracles.

[smugg]

Originally posted by Debbiek
HOw about Lazurus? We believe Jesus still performs miracles.

I don't know how to make it any clearer -- Yes, I understand that resurrection is among Christian beliefs, but did Lazarus fly around the room and approach a column of light and ascend to heaven before he was brought back?

No. According to the Bible when the average person dies, he waits in the ground for the end times when Jesus returns and then, if he believed in Jesus, he is brought back to heaven on earth -- in his body -- after evil has been vanquished.

According to the text, some prophets and martyrs do get to go to heaven before then, but most have to wait.

[Andrew]

smugg,

first u must understand that you are a non-believer, a skeptic. So, even if an angel from heaven appears to you now, you'll just say its a hallucination or, at best, an alien.

you do not have the faith of God, which is a gift of God. You do not have the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Truth. So you can't possibly believe or rightly discern from the spirit.

so this testimony placed here is not to convert you. I just thot it was interesting.

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No. According to the Bible when the average person dies, he waits in the ground for the end times when Jesus returns and then, if he believed in Jesus, he is brought back to heaven on earth -- in his body -- after evil has been vanquished.
-------------

Who told you that? You've lumped 2 sep things together.

When a man dies, he goes straight to heaven (if he's born again in Christ) or to hell (if he's not a believer).

For the Christian, the BIble says that to be absent in the body IS to be present with the Lord.

The resurrection of the dead u are talking about refers to the rapture to come. (I believe this generation will experience it , but that's my opinion). In that event, 2 things happen, first the dead in Christ in the graves rise first, followed by those Christians who are alive. Both categories will be caught up to meet their Lord in the air. They then proceed for the marriage supper of the Lamb, where the church (the bride of Christ) is presented to the Father.

well u may ask, if the dead in Christ are already with Christ in heaven, why must they still be raised? To answer that, just think in terms of Jesus' resurrection. :D

[smugg]

Originally posted by Andrew
smugg,

first u must understand that you are a non-believer, a skeptic. So, even if an angel from heaven appears to you now, you'll just say its a hallucination or, at best, an alien.

you do not have the faith of God, which is a gift of God. You do not have the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Truth. So you can't possibly believe or rightly discern from the spirit.

so this testimony placed here is not to convert you. I just thot it was interesting.

I'm a bit shocked that you have so little faith in Jesus' power to open my eyes! Who's the skeptic, again?

Anyway, I'm pretty on top of my skepticism. It's pure speculation, but I bet a real angel wouldn't have any trouble convincing me that the supernatural is real or of the existence of God.

Skepticism's a funny thing, isn't it? I mean we all choose what to be skeptical of. It's true I try to be skeptical of everything in a balanced fashion, but let me ask you: if the archangel Gibreel came down and told you Allah was the only God and Mohammed was His prophet would you be skeptical? What if it was a nymph in the service of Neptune?

Don't you consider those possibilities ridiculous, too?


-----------
No. According to the Bible when the average person dies, he waits in the ground for the end times when Jesus returns and then, if he believed in Jesus, he is brought back to heaven on earth -- in his body -- after evil has been vanquished.
-------------

Who told you that? You've lumped 2 sep things together.

The Bible told me that. I provided some of the scripture in question, see above.


When a man dies, he goes straight to heaven (if he's born again in Christ) or to hell (if he's not a believer).

For the Christian, the BIble says that to be absent in the body IS to be present with the Lord.

I can't find that -- could you provide some references?


The resurrection of the dead u are talking about refers to the rapture to come. (I believe this generation will experience it , but that's my opinion). In that event, 2 things happen, first the dead in Christ in the graves rise first, followed by those Christians who are alive. Both categories will be caught up to meet their Lord in the air. They then proceed for the marriage supper of the Lamb, where the church (the bride of Christ) is presented to the Father.

well u may ask, if the dead in Christ are already with Christ in heaven, why must they still be raised? To answer that, just think in terms of Jesus' resurrection. :D

[Andrew]

Smugg,
-------
I'm a bit shocked that you have so little faith in Jesus' power to open my eyes! Who's the skeptic, again?
-------
U got it the other way around. Signs and wonders alone cant convince skeptics. What's needed is still the faith of God deposited into the skeptic's heart. So I have faith in God's power, but not the power of testimonies/miracles.

-------
if the archangel Gibriel came down and told you Allah was the only God and Mohammed was His prophet would you be skeptical?
-------
nothing to do with being skeptical. U see, I have the Bible/God's Word, and as long as the sign doesnt line up with scripture, it's nonsense deception.

Resurrection of the dead/rapture ----- read 1 and 2 Thess. plus 1 Cor 15 (especially v35 onwards)

With Christ when dead ----- 2Cor5:6,8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

:D

[smugg]

Originally posted by Andrew
Smugg,

U got it the other way around. Signs and wonders alone cant convince skeptics. What's needed is still the faith of God deposited into the skeptic's heart. So I have faith in God's power, but not the power of testimonies/miracles.

Except that most of the New Testament is exactly about people being converted by the power of "testimonies/miracles." Lets see, there's Saul's vision where he's struck blind, there's all the healing that Jesus did, etc.

Are you saying there's no hope for me? Since I haven't had this faith deposited in me does it mean God has turned His back on me or just that He's not ready for me yet?

And who exactly does this depositing? Is it an invasive procedure? I used to work in a cardiac catheterization lab and I've seen things deposited in people's hearts before -- it can be dangerous.


nothing to do with being skeptical. U see, I have the Bible/God's Word, and as long as the sign doesnt line up with scripture, it's nonsense deception.

Oh, you're scripture must be the missing key I suppose. The first scenario I postulated would probably line up perfectly with Moslem scripture and the latter with Hellenic.


Resurrection of the dead/rapture ----- read 1 and 2 Thess. plus 1 Cor 15 (especially v35 onwards)

1 Corinthians 15:44 It [a dead body] is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Okay, you've shown me that Paul tells us the resurrection is not in physical terms. This still doesn't support the idea of being with Christ before His coming. Earlier in this chapter we find:

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

So the majority of the faithful have to wait until the Christ's return. The other books you pointed me to also support this:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 ...the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Notice the sequence here: first the Lord returns, then the faithful dead rise.

The next line is also interesting:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice Paul, like Jesus (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1012348967.html#34), Peter (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1012349525.html#17), and John of Patmos (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1012349853.html#7) before him, believes Jesus' return immanent and within his lifetime...

2 Thessalonians is silent on the issue, being a reminder to that church not to become idle in their faith.


With Christ when dead ----- 2Cor5:6,8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

:D

I still see no reason to think that this isn't referring to the return of Christ. I know the traditions of people becoming angels when they die and earning their wings and everything, but there is nothing in the scripture which leads us to believe that Christian souls wait for the Second Coming in Heaven and not in the ground.

[Andrew]

Except that most of the New Testament is exactly about people being converted by the power of "testimonies/miracles." Lets see, there's Saul's vision where he's struck blind, there's all the healing that Jesus did, etc.

Are you saying there's no hope for me? Since I haven't had this faith deposited in me does it mean God has turned His back on me or just that He's not ready for me yet?

And who exactly does this depositing?
-------------

Smugg,
All Christians believe that they are saved by grace of God thru faith and even that [faith] it is a gift from God. God can use signs and wonders to help you "see" but this still means it's God's doing.

Of course there's hope for you. If'd you'd simply humble yourself and ask, you shall receive the gift og eternal life. Put aside your skeptical attitude, pride and confess Jesus as Lord and saviour. Believe in who he says he is, believe in what he did, believe God raised him from the dead. Take the step of faith and God will meet you. Salvation is already offered. So the ball is in your court.

The Quran is irrelevant to me.

smugg you are confused about the resurrection of the dead and what happens when a Christian dies.

As I've shown, when a Christian dies, he goes to be with Jesus.

The rapture which includes the resurrection of the dead (from the graves) followed by those Christians who are alive, is something else altogether. It is a "physical/literal" event that has not happened yet. Only preterists believe that it took place during AD70.

If you wld like to know more about the rapture, read the arguments in the eschatology threads.

:rolleyes:

[smugg]

Originally posted by Andrew
Smugg,
All Christians believe that they are saved by grace of God thru faith and even that [faith] it is a gift from God. God can use signs and wonders to help you "see" but this still means it's God's doing.

And God has chosen not to do it for me. My question still stands: what's He waiting for?


Of course there's hope for you. If'd you'd simply humble yourself and ask, you shall receive the gift og eternal life. Put aside your skeptical attitude, pride and confess Jesus as Lord and saviour. Believe in who he says he is, believe in what he did, believe God raised him from the dead. Take the step of faith and God will meet you. Salvation is already offered. So the ball is in your court.

All this sounds like my doing. It sounds like I have to have faith before I could do all this. It doesn't sound like anyone has to plant anything in my heart if I'm willing to do this.

Anyway, already been through all that.


The Quran is irrelevant to me.

That's too bad. I know that if you submitted to the will of Allah, he would admit you into paradise. Put aside your skeptical attitude, pride and confess Allah as the one true god and Mohammed (pbuh) as His prophet. Believe that His word is in the Koran and is His unchanging pledge to you. Take the step of faith and Allah will meet you. Salvation is already offered. So the ball is in your court.

But I think my argument may be too subtle here. If you can't even understand that a leap of faith takes ... well ... faith, how could you understand that you are asking things of me that you aren't even willing to do. This, Andrew, is what I meant when I said we all decide what to be skeptical of: for some it's the Koran and for some it's the New Testament. Your easy dismissal is hilariously ironic.

Do you realize it when you're illustrating my points for me?


smugg you are confused about the resurrection of the dead and what happens when a Christian dies.

As I've shown, when a Christian dies, he goes to be with Jesus.

Oops, I missed it. Where did you show this?


The rapture which includes the resurrection of the dead (from the graves) followed by those Christians who are alive, is something else altogether. It is a "physical/literal" event that has not happened yet. Only preterists believe that it took place during AD70.

If you wld like to know more about the rapture, read the arguments in the eschatology threads.

:rolleyes:

Maybe you've identified our communication problem with your post. You're talking about what Christians believe and I'm talking about what's in the Bible.

Thanks for clearing it up.

[Andrew]

smugg,

I'm wasting my time with you. You are not interestied in salvation, just arguing and trying to be smart. You already know the simple gospel but have rejected it and hardened your heart.

God never forces anyone to be saved. So the choice is yours. You are without Christ. If you die now, hell is where you are headed.

I sincerely hope that you'll repent and accept His unconditional love.

[smugg]

Since you were nice enough to give voice to your hopes for me, I'd like to express my disappointment that you are retiring. I mean, maybe you were the key to my salvation, Andrew.

Or maybe if you had continued in this thread you could have realized that a pleasant lie is nothing in the face of the truth.

Don't worry, I don't think it's ever really too late to stop believing and start thinking.

Take care.

[countrymouse]

Originally posted by Andrew
smugg,

I'm wasting my time with you. You are not interestied in salvation, just arguing and trying to be smart.

Andrew, statements like these are unacceptable on any of these forums. You've been warned before.

[Twonky]

Originally posted by Andrew
I'm wasting my time with you.

I'm quite certain that this isn't a very Christ-like attitude.


You are not interestied in salvation, just arguing and trying to be smart.

Sounded like some reasonable questions to me. I don't know what's going on to ruffle your feathers.


You already know the simple gospel but have rejected it and hardened your heart.

Can't god 'unharden' a heart?


If you die now, hell is where you are headed.

I think the bible clearly states that God is the only one that knows this.

[Andrew]

deleted by Andrew

[countrymouse]

Andrew,

You should have sent this response by private message, but since you did not, I will address it here. It is neither necessary nor acceptable to express your opinions with statements such as "I'm wasting my time with you." No matter whom we address, we must remember Whom we represent. You could have apologized and restated your position in an acceptable manner, but you chose not to do that. I pray that God will redeem this experience in your life and make something beneficial of it.