• Progressive Revelation in the book of Acts

    "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you." John 16:12-15 NKJV

    Both the traditional Reformed covenant and mid-Acts dispensational theologies deny progressive revelation of the truth after the resurrection of Christ and first coming of the Holy Spirit in Pentecostal power. Covenant theology would propose that the gospel in its fullness was known by the apostles from the very beginning of Acts, therefore, the revelation to Paul had nothing to add to it. We are told that any other position is a denial of the authority of the God-breathed sayings quoted from the infant era of the Christian community. Dispensational theology would propose that all the quotations in early Acts were for the Jewish and not Gentile economy of redemption, therefore, they portray no misunderstanding of the gospel. So anyone challenging both ‘poles’ of teaching will have to endure a white-hot hellfire from both sides as opposed to icy blue rhetorical fire that either pole has to endure from the other.

    Prior to God’s revelation of the full-corn gospel to Paul in Arabia and the unleashing of that testimony to the world, there is not a shred of evidence that any apostle or other follower of Christ abandoned a single one of the old laws and sacraments of Judaism. There is some debate over whether God’s revelation to Peter in Acts 10, 11:1-18 came before or after the events of Acts 11:19-30. The narrative of Acts 11:19-30 easily lends to the conclusion that the events following overlap the prior events instead of being successive. At any rate, the uniform proclamation of the full-corn gospel message by both Paul and Peter started around the same time. In spite of Stephen’s proclamation that God does not dwell in temples made with human hands (Acts 7:47-50, there was no abandonment of the externals of old Judaism before Acts 11. The white-hot quarrels over the law that became so common after the advent of Paul’s testimony to the Gentiles did not exist prior to it.

    Many statements and events recorded in early Acts betray a lack of understanding of what God would ultimately reveal as the gospel in its fullness. Starting with the apostles’ question to Christ in Acts 1:6: Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? we see a sequence of immature persuasion on display. The Lord might have answered immediately: "Don’t you remember what I said in the parable of the vineyard laborers? The kingdom will NEVER be restored to Israel" but that is not what he did. He left the weeding out of false beliefs to the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit that would finally result in a full understanding of the truth of the gospel.

    The two most common errors of the early apostles were misguided zeal for the old law and equation of water baptism with the old era washings that purged the guilt of sin. There was not an immediate disassociation of Christian baptism from John’s "preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38; 19:4, 22:16). In the old law remission of sins was tied to the rites of water purification, as well as the rest of the sacrificial system. All of it was sacramental. The initial practice of Christian water baptism added the name of Jesus to the baptism of repentance taught by John. However, receiving the forgiveness and grace of God was still believed to be dependent upon it. The Lord did not see fit to correct this immature understanding even in Acts 8. The Holy Spirit waited until after the application of water baptism before he came upon any of the converts in Pentecostal power.

    In the first days of the apostolic era, it was not God’s purpose to unleash the full-corn gospel of assurance of justification by faith alone (which always includes repentance as a corollary—Acts 20:21). Men were instead assured of justification by repentance unto life AND water baptism in the name of Christ. They also believed that God required continued zealous obedience to the entire Jewish law once (including circumcision) after forgiveness to evidence genuine conversion. Not until Acts 10 do we see the first event of the Holy Spirit coming upon believers prior to their water baptism—and upon those who would continue to ignore obeying the Jewish law!

    The Reformed will always try to impose aspects of the old law and sacraments on us: Sabbaths in the form of Sunday, tithes, circumcision in the form of infant dabbing, the legitimacy of gospel preaching and sacramental administration as only ordained by institutional power. They quote from early Acts to enforce these notions and ignore the testimony of the Pauline gospel. Likewise, the dispensationalists will always say God will pour out his wrath on those who deny the Jewish administration of the gospel in early Acts and the restoration of Israel in the future. We can just ignore both of them and stand by the truth of God.

    In the end, the zeal for the law that characterized Christianity in its infancy was not commended but condemned (Acts 20:21 and all of the Pauline writings). Once the fullness of the gospel came, God expected men to abandon the old attachments to Judaism. After the complete revelation of the truth, a stubborn refusal to abandon teaching obedience to the Jewish laws and a sacramental doctrine of baptism meet the judgment of God. The Lord plunged the Jerusalem community professing Christ into poverty and famine from which it never recovered.

    We should not be disturbed by the fact that Acts records the early ignorance of many aspects of gospel truth as it would later be revealed by the Holy Spirit. The testimony of those events was recorded by Luke under inspiration--but not all of the words quoted are free from error as judged by later revelation. We might state that in a sense they were free from error at the time—because God saw fit not to correct some of their Jewish traditions until later. That is how he chose to work in his sovereign control of the history of the gospel!
    Comments 33 Comments
    1. katoikei's Avatar
      Dear Robert,

      I have just copied this over to Word.doc and shall give it my undevoted attention during my solitude and off-site activities. I am positive you are going to get a massive response.

      I am a servant of Christ,
      Catch-a-Cow.
      (21/31)
    1. wildboar's Avatar
      Robert Higby:

      The traditional reformed do not deny progressive Revelation nor do they ignore Paul. However, your own view of progressive Revelation is hyper-dispensational and so you would naturally view Reformed people as denying progressive Revelation for the same reason Preterists call amillennialists futurists.

      Your full Jimmy cracked corn gospel is a denial of the very words of Scripture. You claim that Apollos was inaccurate prior to his encounter with Priscilla and Aquila but the Scriptures say he was accurate in what he said.

      Acts 18:24-26 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

      Apollos did receive a measure of progressive revelation from the Holy Spirit through the instruments of Priscilla and Aquila but what they said allowed Apollos to be more accurate, not recover from heretical error.

      You face the same problems in relation to your view of Ananias. You claim that Ananias was in error in regards to what he said to Paul. But what does Paul say?

      Acts 22:10-16 "So I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.' 11 "And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus. 12 "Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 "came to me; and he stood and said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 "Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 'For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

      PAUL says that in response to his to the LORD as to what he should do, he is told by the LORD to go to Damascus and he will be told what to do. When PAUL goes to Damascus, Ananias tells him among other things to "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

      It is clear from the narrative that Paul regarded Ananias words as being in relation to what he should do. So either Paul is a liar or Jesus is a liar or Luke is a liar or some combination of them are liars. Saying that Ananias obviously implicates at least some of these people who are not Ananias.

      Quote Originally Posted by HiggedyBee View Post
      There was not an immediate disassociation of Christian baptism from John’s "preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38; 19:4, 22:16).
      Of course there wouldn't be a disassociation. John continued to do this well after Jesus started his ministry.

      John 3:22-23 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

      It makes absolutely no sense that if baptism is now done away with and had always intended to be done away with that Jesus would not only have his disciples baptize but would actually command them to do so as part of the great commission. Jesus may have permitted his disciples and he himself may have engaged in observance of the Jewish ceremonial law but he did not include these things as part of the great commission as he did with baptism.

      1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

      1 Corinthians 3:3-6 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

      There is also the problem you face in that your concept of progressive revelation does not fit the dates of the writings of the actual books of the Bible. 1-2 Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Acts were all written after the Pauline writings except for the Pastoral Epistles and Hebrews. The Gospel and Epistles of John as well as the book of Revelation were written after all of these. If we were to credit someone with giving us the final Revelation (pun fully intended) it would have to be John.

      The Reformed will always try to impose aspects of the old law and sacraments on us: Sabbaths in the form of Sunday, tithes, circumcision in the form of infant dabbing, the legitimacy of gospel preaching and sacramental administration as only ordained by institutional power.
      The Reformed have and had various views on the sabbath and tithing so I'm not sure who these 'Reformed' people are that are always oppressing you and discriminating against you (allusions to the ACLU fully intended as well). Paul told Titus (that's right Titus who was not an apostle) to appoint elders.

      Titus 1:5 For this purpose I left you behind in Crete, that you might put in order the things that still need doing and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you--

      How was ordination performed?

      1 Timothy 4:13-14 Until I come, devote yourself to public reading, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift within you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

      By who? By a direct revelation from God or by self-appointment? No, by the laying on of hands of the presbytery (body of elders).

      Of course, since we know that Paul cannot be trusted because he apparently really believed that Ananias was telling him what he wanted to do and Ananias was obviously not telling the truth and Luke probably recorded it to spread lies as well we should probably not appoint any elders at all.
    1. momoz's Avatar
      Hi folks, it's been awhile, just passing through,


      [quote=wildboar;46597] an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

      The underlined seems to tell me that Apollos' accuracy was only accurate enough for the earlier time period ( dispensation, pardon my usage of this word should I offend anyone here ), otherwise, A and P would not be led to have to add on to his accuracy.

      Quote
      There is also the problem you face in that your concept of progressive revelation does not fit the dates of the writings of the actual books of the Bible. 1-2 Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Acts were all written after the Pauline writings except for the Pastoral Epistles and Hebrews. The Gospel and Epistles of John as well as the book of Revelation were written after all of these. If we were to credit someone with giving us the final Revelation (pun fully intended) it would have to be John.

      Where did you get this information from? Interesting!

      1 Timothy 4:13-14 Until I come, devote yourself (Timothy) to public reading, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift within you, which was given to you (Timothy)by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery( the elders who were with Timothy )


      In my view,the apostles, Timothy and his elders are no longer here, so who would have the authority to baptize, except for the Holy Spirit? I was baptized by both water and the Holy Spirit, but I only reckon the latter one now.


      Dispensationalism, if I have to attach to this label, doesn't contradict Calvinism, again, if I have to attach to this label,

      just my humble opinions, should I offend anyone, please exercise charity,

      Momoz
    1. wildboar's Avatar
      Quote Originally Posted by momoz View Post
      The underlined seems to tell me that Apollos' accuracy was only accurate enough for the earlier time period ( dispensation, pardon my usage of this word should I offend anyone here ), otherwise, A and P would not be led to have to add on to his accuracy.
      I will agree with you to a point on this matter but what was required for greater accuracy was more details and not substraction.

      Quote Originally Posted by momoz View Post
      Where did you get this information from? Interesting!
      William Hendriksen's Survey of the Bible. It is generally accepted that the book of Revelation was the last book written and I'm pretty sure that most would teach that the Gospel of John and the Johannine Epistles were among the last writings of the New Testament. It is pretty clear from reading the Gospel of John that a greater understanding of doctrine had developed in the church than is seen in the synoptic gospels.

      Quote Originally Posted by momoz View Post
      In my view,the apostles, Timothy and his elders are no longer here, so who would have the authority to baptize, except for the Holy Spirit? I was baptized by both water and the Holy Spirit, but I only reckon the latter one now.
      God always works through means. We don't sit in a chair at home and say "Only the Holy Spirit can bring the Gospel so I'm going to sit here and do nothing." All Scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, for reproof, for improvement, for training in righteousness, the person of God may be capable, having been equipped for every good work.

      What is recorded in Scripture was not written so that we can say "Oh that's nice Paul appointed some elders, too bad he's not here to do it now, I guess the church doesn't really exist anymore." Scriptural principles of ecclesiology are laid forth in these letters. They apply to us today. The office of elder never passed away after the death of the last apostle but continued throughout history. We don't read of the early church fathers even considering the idea that the office no longer existed. Baptism is a beautiful thing that God has given to us. Why would we minimize or do away with it? The person that thinks we don't need the visible word found in the baptism and the Lord's Supper is a gnostic and pretends to be wiser than God.

      Quote Originally Posted by momoz View Post
      Dispensationalism, if I have to attach to this label, doesn't contradict Calvinism, again, if I have to attach to this label,
      Sure it does. Calvinism as a theological term has reference to the doctrines in the Reformed confessions as developed in the 17th century. A person could be a historic premillennialist and still be a Calvinist, but a dispensationalist is operating on an entirely different hermeneutic. You will not find this method of interpretation in church history at all. It is not mere coincidence that the vast majority of dispensationalists are Arminian.
    1. Dans la Musique's Avatar
      Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
      Robert Higby:

      The traditional reformed do not deny progressive Revelation nor do they ignore Paul. However, your own view of progressive Revelation is hyper-dispensational and so you would naturally view Reformed people as denying progressive Revelation for the same reason Preterists call amillennialists futurists.

      Your full Jimmy cracked corn gospel is a denial of the very words of Scripture. You claim that Apollos was inaccurate prior to his encounter with Priscilla and Aquila but the Scriptures say he was accurate in what he said.

      Acts 18:24-26 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

      Apollos did receive a measure of progressive revelation from the Holy Spirit through the instruments of Priscilla and Aquila but what they said allowed Apollos to be more accurate, not recover from heretical error.

      You face the same problems in relation to your view of Ananias. You claim that Ananias was in error in regards to what he said to Paul. But what does Paul say?

      Acts 22:10-16 "So I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.' 11 "And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus. 12 "Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 "came to me; and he stood and said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 "Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 'For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

      PAUL says that in response to his to the LORD as to what he should do, he is told by the LORD to go to Damascus and he will be told what to do. When PAUL goes to Damascus, Ananias tells him among other things to "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

      It is clear from the narrative that Paul regarded Ananias words as being in relation to what he should do. So either Paul is a liar or Jesus is a liar or Luke is a liar or some combination of them are liars. Saying that Ananias obviously implicates at least some of these people who are not Ananias.



      Of course there wouldn't be a disassociation. John continued to do this well after Jesus started his ministry.

      John 3:22-23 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

      It makes absolutely no sense that if baptism is now done away with and had always intended to be done away with that Jesus would not only have his disciples baptize but would actually command them to do so as part of the great commission. Jesus may have permitted his disciples and he himself may have engaged in observance of the Jewish ceremonial law but he did not include these things as part of the great commission as he did with baptism.

      1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

      1 Corinthians 3:3-6 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

      There is also the problem you face in that your concept of progressive revelation does not fit the dates of the writings of the actual books of the Bible. 1-2 Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Acts were all written after the Pauline writings except for the Pastoral Epistles and Hebrews. The Gospel and Epistles of John as well as the book of Revelation were written after all of these. If we were to credit someone with giving us the final Revelation (pun fully intended) it would have to be John.



      The Reformed have and had various views on the sabbath and tithing so I'm not sure who these 'Reformed' people are that are always oppressing you and discriminating against you (allusions to the ACLU fully intended as well). Paul told Titus (that's right Titus who was not an apostle) to appoint elders.

      Titus 1:5 For this purpose I left you behind in Crete, that you might put in order the things that still need doing and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you--

      How was ordination performed?

      1 Timothy 4:13-14 Until I come, devote yourself to public reading, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift within you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

      By who? By a direct revelation from God or by self-appointment? No, by the laying on of hands of the presbytery (body of elders).

      Of course, since we know that Paul cannot be trusted because he apparently really believed that Ananias was telling him what he wanted to do and Ananias was obviously not telling the truth and Luke probably recorded it to spread lies as well we should probably not appoint any elders at all.


      WB, It seems that you are saying we ought to mimic every act that was done in the Bible, rather than seeking out the message that it coming FROM the events recorded. If we were to mimic OT? Would you do what Moses did? It is not that any of those people were liars, it is a recorded fact that we take by belief that these people baptized/were baptized. That isn't being denied. What is being said about progressive "revelation",
      meaning the MESSAGE of the Gospel, NOT the events that were recorded, but the message that is interpreted THROUGH those events, is that water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

      The reason why it is key to use the Message given by Christ to Paul, which we take by faith, because after all, Christ Himself does say,. that the Helper will lead them into the truth, AFTER Christ's ressurection. So the reason why Paul is important in adressing this issue is because it was God's plan to use him to spread to Gospel into the Gentile community. The gentile community was not given the Jewish customs and rites, including baptism. What was meant for the Jew first, then the Gentile was salvation through Christ alone, justification by faith alone.

      Of course we have the Jewish customs, and baptism we still have to signify, a change or repentance in a believer. If the believer IS a believer, and baptizes because of repentance, then it be good. If the believer is a believer and repents but does not baptize, then it be good.
    1. Dans la Musique's Avatar
      P.S.- I believe, that to let scripture interpret scripture, we must read the scripture first, find the Message of scripture, then re-read scripture through the eyes of the Message. Therefore the time-line isnt what is the governing rule, but the Message be.
    1. momoz's Avatar
      Dans la Musique,

      It's good to see you studying and learning and growing in HIS knowledge and HIS grace, God bless! And keep studying.....to glorify HIM.

      too old to argue any more, momoz
    1. lionovjudah's Avatar
      Progressive revelation has ONLY to do with a deeper understanding of a previous thought breathed by God in the inspired writ. Unless there is explicit words spoken negating a previous truth that is no longer binding, we cannot conclude on our own that it is done away with. OR was a deception by God.

      Progressive revelation or "new lights" has plagued the church forever. JW's, Millerites, ellen white, the hagins, copelands, Roberts have all offorded themselves the luxury of hiding under the cloak of progressive revelation. Anyone can claim to be receving a word from God, but the only result is chaos. I am not one to fool around with inspiration and revelation, because then I end up with words of man. To gain deeper understanding vs adding to the word of God becomes a gray area. One thing is certain as spoken by the inspired Jude: "The faith was ONCE DELIVERED"

      AS far as the book of Acts is concerned, there is absolutely no warrant to say what Annanias spoke was a lie. or Apollos was a false teacher until Priscilla and Aquilla "taught" him.

      Gods revealing of Himself was consumated in Christ, not Paul. And if Paul was and is the final authority, then he has no excuse for ceremonily cleansing himself in the book of Acts. Why would this happen?

      Progressive revelation is a truth from Genesis to The Revelation. Then it stopped. There are NO NEW LIGHTS. No NEw Doctrines. No new truths yet to be discovered. And to say God would cause annanias to lie is ridiculous
    1. wildboar's Avatar
      Quote Originally Posted by Dans View Post
      WB, It seems that you are saying we ought to mimic every act that was done in the Bible, rather than seeking out the message that it coming FROM the events recorded. If we were to mimic OT? Would you do what Moses did? It is not that any of those people were liars, it is a recorded fact that we take by belief that these people baptized/were baptized. That isn't being denied. What is being said about progressive "revelation",
      meaning the MESSAGE of the Gospel, NOT the events that were recorded, but the message that is interpreted THROUGH those events, is that water baptism is not necessary for salvation.
      Apparently you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying to mimic every act as found in the Bible. I acknowledge that the ceremonial law was fulfilled in Christ and it would be sinful to perform animal sacrifice and so forth since the perfect lamb has been offered.

      However, while there is ample evidence to show within Scripture that the bloody sacrifices must cease, there is absolutely no evidence that any Biblical writer believed that baptism or the Lord's Supper should cease. Certainly the unblemished lamb has been sacrificed once and for all but we have not attained perfection and are still in need of the washing of our sins (baptism) and in need of communion with the body and blood of Christ (Lord's Supper). What Scripture is there that supports this gnostic idea that we no longer need the visible word? or elders for that matter? What major event do you see in Scripture that would lead us to that conclusion? The only way you can really get there Scripturally is even you hold to a hyper-preterist position which is why they are struggling with some of these same issues.

      Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby View Post
      If the believer IS a believer, and baptizes because of repentance, then it be good. If the believer is a believer and repents but does not baptize, then it be good.
      Thus sayeth who? Robert Higby? Show me the Scripture. I don't have any desire to join the Higbyians.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dans View Post
      The reason why it is key to use the Message given by Christ to Paul, which we take by faith, because after all, Christ Himself does say,. that the Helper will lead them into the truth, AFTER Christ's ressurection. So the reason why Paul is important in adressing this issue is because it was God's plan to use him to spread to Gospel into the Gentile community. The gentile community was not given the Jewish customs and rites, including baptism. What was meant for the Jew first, then the Gentile was salvation through Christ alone, justification by faith alone.
      But both Luke and John also write primarily to a Gentil audience and so it would then follow that it would be John who would give us the fullest development of doctrine. Paul certainly advanced doctrine quite a bit but he is not the last Biblical author.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dans View Post
      I believe, that to let scripture interpret scripture, we must read the scripture first, find the Message of scripture, then re-read scripture through the eyes of the Message. Therefore the time-line isnt what is the governing rule, but the Message be.
      We are time-bound creatures and time has a good deal with how we understand things. If a person believed that the book of Isaiah was written after the Gospels they could come up with some pretty whacked out ideas. Progressive revelation is not really progressive if it is regressive in time. (I think my last sentence sounds cool and you can quote it if you'd like of course it probably wouldn't even need to be stated to anyone outside this forum.)
    1. Machaira's Avatar
      I agree with WB and LoJ on this. The idea that some of the things instituted by Christ and the Apostles are to be left behind progressively throughout the NT is a slippery slope to say the least. It's a virtual Pandora's box. The idea makes Scripture so elastic that anything goes. If I don't like that a particular verse or passage seems to contradict my "system," then all I have to do to get rid of it is to cry, "progressive revelation!" It's all too convenient.
    1. GraceAmbassador's Avatar
      If I don't like that a particular verse or passage seems to contradict my "system," then all I have to do to get rid of it is to cry, "progressive revelation!" It's all too convenient.
      Not as convenient as crying: "PARADOX! We have to shut up and accept it!"

      How do you know that you don't have to kill lambs any longer to be atoned of your sins?

      How do you answer to someone who asks you "what should I do to gain eternal life?" Do you answer the same exact way Jesus answered the rich young ruler?

      This is not a challenge to your point; it is just to indicate to you that "progressive revelation" is not an buggy man waiting to attack orthodoxy.

      We have discussed this one in this Forum as well: those who elevate Confessions to the level of inspired scripture will often be afraid of the terms "progressive revalation" (I don't know if that is your case and I don't want to erect a straw man here). They will also call me a neo-orthdoxy defender if when and if I say that in the book of Acts things were no "as complete" (for lack of a better term) as they ARE now that Paul received the entire revelation of the Gospel. I don't know the reason, but Confession defenders do have a hard time when I mention "progressions" between the Gospels and the time of Acts when the baby ekklesia still was under the "rule" of the Synagogue, and later, when Paul received the revelation recorded in Romans through Philemon.

      Again, please, research the Forum! There was a fellow here from John Robbins "party" (I also read and admire John Robbins) that even called me names for mentioning "progressive revelation". But when I ask the questions I ask above he gave me an answer that indicates that HE IS ALSO A BELIEVE IN PROGRESSIVE RELEVATION, but does not even acknowleges it! Why? It would go against his "faborite" (mispelling intentional) confession! In other words, he gave me an answer that indicates that he believes the Gospel as revealed to Paul and not what what was "in force" whe Jesus replied to the rich young ruler and also answered the same way "progressive revelation" answers why we no longer kill lambs...

      No, "progressive revelation" is not a buggy man and it is NOT A SLIPPERY SLOPE.

      By the way, the indirect proposition is intended (using "I", when "I" denies it, which really means YOU) that anyone here is trying to "get rid of some scriptures because they don't fit our system" as quoted above IT WOULD BE PURE SLANDER! No one here is trying to get rid of any scripture! Scritpture is inspired when it gives us an account of how people had to "sacrifice" to be atoned for their sins and it is also inspired when it progresses in teaching us that "Jesus is the Lamb of God". We just have to decide what is in force!

      Milt
    1. Machaira's Avatar
      Milt,

      1. Don't ever accuse me of slander unless you have something specific to quote.

      2. No one is talking about "paradox."

      3. The bottom line is that Christ commanded baptism and there is no subsequent command to stop. *How we know to stop observing OT types and shadows is IRRELEVANT!
    1. GraceAmbassador's Avatar
      3. The bottom line is that Christ commanded baptism and there is no subsequent command to stop. *How we know to stop observing OT types and shadows is IRRELEVANT!
      I really have to check if anyone here affirmed that there is a subsequent command to stop baptism. Would you please quote it contextually?

      As to the "slander" part, what I intended to write was:

      "By the way, the indirect proposition IF intended"... would be pure...

      Somehow I am too overwhelmed by the World Cup (I Brazilian, for Ronaldinho's sake!!!) and typed:

      "By the way, the indirect proposition is intended"... would be pure... (with the wrong concordance)

      So, I did not intend to accuse you of slander but was only conjecturing...

      My apologies if that offended you.

      Milt
    1. Robert R. Higby's Avatar
      The notion that progressive revelation, by very definition, involves no change from immature foolishness to a more perfect wisdom--this is paradox theology indeed.

      Either the apostles taught that the Mosaic law was ended FROM DAY ONE or they didn't. If they didn't, they believed things that were not true until God corrected them. Either they believed that the kingdom was not to be restored to Israel or they believed it was to be. If they believed it was to be, they believed things that were not true until God corrected them.

      The Reformed teach that the Sinai covenant is part of the COVENANT OF GRACE. Thus the Sabbath and covenant of law is still to be observed. Either they are teaching doctrines of devils or they are teaching the commandment of God that is binding on the consciences of all. They teach such things because they believe God gave no full-corn revelation of the gospel to Paul that contradicted some of the early errors of the apostles. I have heard seething hatred of the message of Gal. 3-4, 2 Cor. 3, Heb 10, and many passages speaking of the end of the law-covenant preached by Reformed teachers for over 20 years. Since they GOT THE POWER of the institution, I have to just sit in the pew and puke in my mind!

      Just because Peter at Pentecost and later Apollos spoke the truth of God mightily and TAUGHT GOD'S TRUE MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL; this does not mean that such proclamation was purged of all false elements at the point that both men first spoke under the Pentecostal inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Reformed teach that all prophecy must be without error in all details in order to deny that prophecy continues until the Second Coming.

      When the biblical writers under inspiration taught deliberately and positively by their writing, what they said was without error. When they are quoted in their early immaturity, their sayings are definitely truth in essence but this does not mean that all details are perfect. Luke is not to be condemned as a stinkin' liberal because he did not correct the mistakes of those he quoted in ALL of his historical narratives!
    1. Robert R. Higby's Avatar
      Bob: Anyone challenging both ‘poles’ of teaching will have to endure a white-hot hellfire from both sides as opposed to icy blue rhetorical fire that either pole has to endure from the other.

      WB:
      Your own view of progressive Revelation is hyper-dispensational and so you would naturally view Reformed people as denying progressive Revelation for the same reason Preterists call amillennialists futurists.

      Your full Jimmy cracked corn gospel is a denial of the very words of Scripture.

      It is clear from the narrative that Paul regarded Ananias words as being in relation to what he should do. So {according to Higby} either Paul is a liar or Jesus is a liar or Luke is a liar or some combination of them are liars.

      Originally posted by Higgedybee: "There was not an immediate disassociation of Christian baptism from John’s "preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" {Oh really, I guess that is supposed to be me!!}

      What is recorded in Scripture was not written so that we can say "Oh that's nice Paul appointed some elders, too bad he's not here to do it now, I guess the church doesn't really exist anymore."

      The person that thinks we don't need the visible word found in the baptism and the Lord's Supper is a gnostic and pretends to be wiser than God.

      What Scripture is there that supports this gnostic idea that we no longer need the visible word? or elders for that matter? What major event do you see in Scripture that would lead us to that conclusion? The only way you can really get there Scripturally is even you hold to a hyper-preterist position which is why they are struggling with some of these same issues.

      Lion of Judah:
      Progressive revelation or "new lights" has plagued the church forever. JW's, Millerites, ellen white, the hagins, copelands, Roberts have all offorded themselves the luxury of hiding under the cloak of progressive revelation. Anyone can claim to be receving a word from God, but the only result is chaos. I am not one to fool around with inspiration and revelation, because then I end up with words of man.

      AS far as the book of Acts is concerned, there is absolutely no warrant to say what Annanias spoke was a lie. or Apollos was a false teacher until Priscilla and Aquilla "taught" him. {Here Joe is the one lying; I espouse that the essential message of Ananias was truth--but that he was also wrong on part of one expression that he said to Paul--not on what Paul was to do in material action. I never said that Apollos was a false teacher. I never stated that ANY of the immature teachings of the early apostles were heresies--heresy can only exist after the full truth is revealed.}

      And if Paul was and is the final authority, then he has no excuse for ceremonily cleansing himself in the book of Acts. Why would this happen?

      Machaira:
      The idea that some of the things instituted by Christ and the Apostles are to be left behind progressively throughout the NT is a slippery slope to say the least. It's a virtual Pandora's box. The idea makes Scripture so elastic that anything goes. If I don't like that a particular verse or passage seems to contradict my "system," then all I have to do to get rid of it is to cry, "progressive revelation!" It's all too convenient.

      By the way, I have never stated that ANYTHING instituted by Christ and the Apostles is to be left behind: especially baptism and the Lord's Supper!
    1. GraceAmbassador's Avatar
      Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby View Post
      By the way, I have never stated that ANYTHING instituted by Christ and the Apostles is to be left behind: especially baptism and the Lord's Supper!
      Bob:

      As you probably read, I posted a request to Machaira to post the exact quote in which any of us state anything related to the "stoppage" of baptism (or to be left behind). It is very difficult when people purposefully or conveniently ignorantly adds to our argument something that we are not saying. It is not only the undesired logical straw-man, but it is also the annoying and displeasing "reading into" mania that assails internet forums. I give up!

      As you, I defend progressive revelation; I often said, as you, that we are not denying the inspiration of texts or statements made in a time when the Gospel was not understood anywhere outside judaism. We are affirming that these things now have to be UNDERSTOOD in the light of Paul's revelation. That's all!

      Someone here asked why Paul practiced washings. Well, that is really interesting because Paul himself stated that "he made himself to be all things to all men". That does not indicate that Paul was in agreement with some rites and practices, but that AS HE STATES, was attempting to WIN SOME. Pshaw! Win some for WHAT? What was Paul attemping to win some for? Of course is for the understanding of the Gospel that he called "my Gospel" and we call, for lack of a better word, "full-corn Gospel". So, Paul obviously allowed himself to practice the inadequate seeking to win some practitioners of the inadequate to the ADEQUACY of the Gospel. There would be no reason for Paul to practice some things to win others if those things were in and of itself complete and final. Is this too hard to understand?

      The thing that I find interesting is that I am sure that if I could hear WB or Machaira teach and preach, they would say that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world; that the way to eternal life is independent upon anything I do, such as my human effort to fulfill all commandments and legal ceremonies and other O.T.and N.T. up to Acts truths. But if we mention the words "progressive revelation" they are immediately spooked by the term and in their attempt to exorcise the "buggy-man" they begin to "add to our words" to say the least, that we are "leaving behind" or despising the teachings of the book of Acts and statements that were made before Paul received his revelation. This is the mother of all misunderstandings to use an euphemism for a total unwillingness to understand what we are saying and even "add to our words" things that we are not saying.

      I am still waiting for a contextual quote where anyone here, me, you or anyone, said that there is a command to stop baptism and that we propose the "leaving behind" anything instituted by Christ and the Apostles.

      Milt

      I give up!
    1. GraceAmbassador's Avatar
      Stephen must have been teaching progressive revelation when he stated that God does not dwell in temples made by man's hands... The elders of the Icecreamarian church coldly rejected that because, after all, the temple was the place to worship... and the temple was the house of God, and by golly, no one would change that!

      Acts 7:47-49
    1. Robert R. Higby's Avatar
      Well, Milt, I'm tempted at times to give up too BUT--God's grace is sufficient for both of us! I truly believe that some of the opposing arguments are so obviously strained and institutional that many will realize the absurdity of them.

      I do not agree with all of the things that PAUL did to become all things to all men! No doubt some of my critics will call me a Christ-denying skeptic for saying that too! I believe that all of what Paul positively TAUGHT in his writings under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost is without error and represents the FINAL message of God's grace to the world in gospel fullness. But that does not mean that Luke was bound to record only the INNERRANT things that Paul said or did! Paul went way too far in accomodating the neurotic Torah-centered hang-ups of the Jerusalem 'church' and scripture records that. Some of the over-respect he had for his Jewish heritage was unhealthy and sinful. But he never claimed that such attitudes, beliefs, or actions on his part were strictly OF THE LORD. He only claimed that for his full revelation of the gospel taught positively in his epistles! So there is the difference.
    1. Eileen's Avatar
      Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
      The Reformed teach that the Sinai covenant is part of the COVENANT OF GRACE. Thus the Sabbath and covenant of law is still to be observed. Either they are teaching doctrines of devils or they are teaching the commandment of God that is binding on the consciences of all. They teach such things because they believe God gave no full-corn revelation of the gospel to Paul that contradicted some of the early errors of the apostles. I have heard seething hatred of the message of Gal. 3-4, 2 Cor. 3, Heb 10, and many passages speaking of the end of the law-covenant preached by Reformed teachers for over 20 years. Since they GOT THE POWER of the institution, I have to just sit in the pew and puke in my mind!
      I just wanted to say one thing here on this part of your post Bob. I know for the most part you are speaking the truth, but there are many, many who DON"T believe that the Sinai covenant is part of the Covenant of Grace and still call themselves part of a reformed institution. I personally don't believe that and neither does my pastor and many others as well. We have discussed this in depth, especially Galatians 4:30.

      Admittedly, it is slow, but it goes forward as the Lord wills!

      Eileen~
    1. Robert R. Higby's Avatar
      Eileen: I know for the most part you are speaking the truth, but there are many, many who DON"T believe that the Sinai covenant is part of the Covenant of Grace and still call themselves part of a reformed institution.

      Well, there may be some Eileen but this is new to me--I know of no names in publication who proudly claim the title 'Reformed' but deny that ALL 10 commandments of the decalogue are literally binding on the conscience of believers. Reformed Covenant Theology clearly teaches that there are two and ONLY two covenants: the covenant of works with Adam and the covenant of grace administered in ALL of the covenants since the fall of Adam. The 'New Covenant Theology' view denies that Sinai is part of the covenant of grace, however, for the most part they ALSO deny that a covenant of grace administered in multiple covenants exists in scripture at all! I do not.