Out on a Limb

One reason churchianity hates these attributes of God is they are busy trying to earn God's grace and mercy by their performance. It makes it much easier to worship a god who's always laughing, smiling or feeling sorry for you.

Beautiful post Jimmy, I want to add a point that I know may have nothing to do with the great truth you have expressed.
Veangeance does belong to God, as Paul quotes in the end of Rom. 12. And its kind of amazing that what follows in ch.13 has several particular ways to express some things we need to know. God appoints all authorities of the countries, nations, and on down the line. As long as we are not being told to obey a law that would dishonor Christ, we better do it like Jesus with Pontius Pilate. How God chooses to bring vengeance and in what measure in a temporal way, is His business and the timing is His business. If a certain government is not exercizing a proper amount of justice and God brings another nation against it and then we get justice.
Let me use and example. We dont have alot of the details of Paul's previous life other than he was a zealous pharisee that was bent on wiping the name of Jesus of the face of the earth.

Now imagine it is you and your wife and children at home going about your daily business rejoicing in your new found freedom in Christ. All of a sudden from the field you look back home and there is a few soldiers and priests dragging your family out of the house, beating them as they put chains on them. (my regular thoughts are how am I going to kill those guys, I cant bear to watch what is happening to my innocent family that I love....anger, tears, a plot......so you run through bushes with sythe in hand and catch the 1st soldiers completely off guard and hack their heads off, grab one of their spears and nail the front guard and then a sword to finish off the priests that are unarmed..........me, I'm going to hide my family and then go find others who will join me in resisting such evil......and evil it is, and a natural desire I think, and Saul of Tarsus is now enemy #1, 1st chance I get with my bow and arrows is to kill this man................my prayer to Jesus now in 2008 is, please Lord, for your names sake, nail me to the little cross you have told me to carry so I wont fulfill the desires of the flesh.)

If God chooses to wait till the final judgment to giveus justice 2 Thes. 1:3-11.........who are we to call into question His timing or His wisdom. Who are we to set ourselves up as authorities in a way that Jesus would never approve........and take any form of veangeance? Do we want to really justify robbery in Rom. 6:1 style........if we take veangeance ourselves, that is theft, it is disobedience..........the right we have Peter also express's beautifully in his 1st letter and we had better ARM OURSELVES appropriately (1 Pet 4:1 again)
I will end here as I will put the bulk of this on my own blog, but I will say this, to anyone that is willing to return evil for evil (also in Rom. 12) and take veangance instead of trusting God..........is a coward. 1 Cor. 1 & 2, this sounds like utter foolishness to the world, but it should not to one who loves Jesus and is willing to SUFFER as we are called to do.

As I clearly pointed out, I have the same law of sin that works in my flesh as all brethren..........I think I expressed my own feelings well enough, but I'll tell ya what, If my believing wife and children are killed and I am left to suffer...........yah, I get it, in thinking that taking vengeance myself would be the right thing to do I Have really just been looking out for old #1............me, the old me. #1 old me does not want to suffer one single bit of discomfort, I think Hebrews 11 should be read again, I would not want God to be ashamed to call me family, would you? This is my opinion, I hope you dont mind my tailgaiting here.

Whammer, that was a great comment. I completely agree with your desires. If my wife and kids were being attacked or any such thing I don't know if I'd be able to control my impulse to kill them all if I could. I hope I'm never faced with such a decision because I don't know how I'd react. Paul and the other apostles give us great examples for this as they were pretty much all beaten, imprisoned and killed for their faith but never is there an instance recorded of them enacting their own vengeance on their persecutors.

And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings; yes, more, of bonds and imprisonments. They were stoned, they were sawed in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented. The world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains and dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise, for God had provided some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us.
(Hebrews 11:36-40)

Hmm.. Bryan another thought though for you. Where would you draw the line though in not acting? What if a murderer comes to your house, and has already beaten your wife.. is about ready to cut her throat with a knife. Would you step in to try and save your wife? If so, do you believe that is the right thing to do in Gods eyes?

Now what if it was a bad government, say an official who came to execute her for worshiping God in the open. Pretty much a hanging or execution, no trial, no innocent until proven guilty, just immediate murder.. would you try and save her?

I believe I understand what you are saying, in most cases vengeance does belong to the Lord. If we are being tortured for our faith we endure it, if we are slapped in the cheek we turn the other one. But what if you are wrongly imprisoned? Or captured by say a terrorist group for being a Christian. Would you just endure it? Or would you try to escape? You see it all depends on the cirumstance. Yes God is the one who avenges, we are not to retaliate, go on some killing spree or something. But I think in some circumstances it is right in Gods eyes to protect your family from murderers. And it is right in Gods eyes to try and escape torture.

Excellent article my brother Jimmy. I thank the Lord for the marvolous wisdom and knowlede He has shed upon you.

Nicholas

Hi Mary,
I would try to save my wife by attempting to jump the guy and while I was fighting with him scream out to lori to dial 911. I would ask that the Lord strengthen me to put the man into an unconscious position if able, or possibly he would kill me.....but Lori may get away, if not and we both died, we would be with the Lord..........nothing bad about that, right?

I think to the rest of your post, you need to consider the times Paul lived in the corrupt government he lived in, not only the Romans who finally under Nero's reign killed Paul...........you dont see him forming political revolts or political action commities......no, he still had people to proclaim the gospel to, even while imprisoned and in chains.
The Jewish government wanted Paul dead to.........and think.....think.......read 2 Cor. 10:16-33 and tell me why Paul didnt excercize his Roman citizenship? He did one time and it saved some people's life. Read the acts again when you have time, but for now, just 16:25.........and then read its context, prior to what God did, were Paul and Silas planning a revolt and thru the rest of Acts do you get the idea that Paul was seeking to join the Zealots (those who fueled the wars in the late 60/s bc's that led to Jesus's prophecy and execution of the destruction of jerusalem)
Where (since we ARE NOT A PART OF THE OLD COVENANT do you ever see the apostles organizing political action groups? Jimmy quoted a part of the Hebrews you really need to think about too.......................and by God's grace and strength from the Holy Spirit, may all who love Jesus not be robbed of bearing their cross.

Remember also, when Jesus was talking about carrying our crosses (luke or matt) not only if we WONT carry that cross are we not worthy of Him, but he who love father, or mother, orbrother, etc, etc, etc more than me...........is NOT worthy of me.
re check the scriptures, read the tiny epistle of 1st Peter..............and then let me know if you still see things the same :-)

Yeah that makes sense about your family, I would try the same... pry get hurt though since I too small cant put up much of a fight, and Im too scared to carry a weapon. But I would try and get free.

But why would we treat a corrupt government who wants to kill us (not that they are right now, but ya never know someday) differently than a criminal who wants to kill us? You would protect your wife from a criminal but you wouldn't from a government?

You are right none of the apostles in the NT ever revolted against the government, or tried to escape the prison. Though if they wanted to they probably could. But I believe they stayed and did as God commanded. I believe in that time it was the Lords purpose for them to minister to those in prison.

But if the government is going to become murderers I want nothing to do with that. And if they came for my families life execution style, I would protect them just as if that person was a burglar or murderer. And I believe that there is nothing wrong with self defense.

But yeah I will take some time to read over the Scriptures you posted.

Bryan you can consider this a sharp rebuke from one brother to another...okay so hear goes...do you not understand that Batman will come to the rescue in the event that your wife was attacked? Come on man think!!!! Some one help me out here!!!

Mama Mia, what have done? I have actually blasphemed Batman.................Batman, if your car shows up, i'll wash it spotless and polish it, I just got caught in the thick of the forest so to speak

Part of your words quoted here.................
"But why would we treat a corrupt government who wants to kill us (not that they are right now, but ya never know someday) differently than a criminal who wants to kill us? You would protect your wife from a criminal but you wouldn't from a government?


But if the government is going to become murderers I want nothing to do with that. And if they came for my families life execution style, I would protect them just as if that person was a burglar or murderer. And I believe that there is nothing wrong with self defense.

Yup, at least you will find yourself in good company..........look at our shining example of how to deal with evil corrupt authority.......read John 18:28 thru 19:11. Your words are exactly like Peter's when Jesus rebuked him as Satan and Jesus also had to undo the damage Peter once again did to Malchus the servant........Peter was fighting against the plan of God (yes this was predetermined so the elect would know how NOT to act)

But here is the main words of Jesus that you need to pay close attention to with all those other scriptures I gave you to prayerfully ponder............it is John 19:11

Jn 19:11-11, (NASB),
11 Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."
Now, tell me, who else but Jesus would deserve the protection you speak of giving in what you call justice?
What about when Paul was killed by Nero?
What about when Peter also was killed by Nero?
I read a n estimate that in the colliseum in Ephesus, that before the 4th century, almost 5,000,000 christians were executed there alone in the Roman Empire........yes I said 5 million.
No matter who I read in reguards to the 1st 2 centuries.........no where is there ever a plot by christians to hire mercenaries (maybe the parthians or bactrians, they hated the Romans and history proves it) or gather all within the empire and attempt to overthrow it.................why? Why? Pain, tears, betrayal, tribulation are all promised to us by Jesus and Paul makes it clear that if we dont suffer with Jesus, we WILL NOT BE GLORIFIED with Him.
Receive correction from the scriptures, get rid of your swords (any fleshly weapon) and pick the cross back up.......use the weapons we are told to use against our most REAL enemies.

Peter's failures recorded in scripture fit what Paul says in Romans 15:4 for me. I have seen enough of the old man that was crucified on the cross with Jesus.........so Peter's failures help humble me, comfort me as I see how Jesus continues to love him..............but this is not a justification Mary to take up arms of the fleshly kind, God places various authorities to do what He wants, when ever he wants so lets learn to be content with His wisdom...........He may wait till the final judgement like He told the beloved sheep in thessolonica..........yup, read it 2 Thes. 1
If God decides thats the time, we better be asking Him for the strength to buffet the flesh as Paul would say.
I am not making any claims that I have arrived, I think I have made the clear already...................but I get tired of hearing people say...."my CITIZENSHIP is in Heaven, I have no home here because I am NOT OF THE WORLD, I am a part of one nation 1 Pet. 2:9, I belong to the kingdom of priests (Rev. 1) I am a pilgrim, stranger, foreigner....................FOREIGNER? If people who profess to be people that love Christ give lip service to all of the above............maybe so/maybe no.....they might not be genuine brethren or they may just be immature like me, but how in the world do you miss this.............foreigners (christ's sheep) understand this................THE ON.Y RIGHTS THEY HAVE ARE THE ONES CHRIST HAS GIVEN THEM..........If we SAY we are foreigners........dont you think we should act like it? God knows those who give lip service to this truth because they are so attached to worldly comfort and worldly pleasures (not necessarily sinful pleasures) that if anyone/any authority gets in the way of that, they are willing to take matters into their own hands and start murdering all who stand in their way, they will kill anyone hapily as if they have done God a service.
Cmon everyone.............what does the scripture mean that Jesus' sheep are FOREIGNERS?
Are we living this? Are we asking God to stregthen us to do so. Or do we just love this present world too much.
Cmon, lets not be traitors to our King.
He says suffer.........we say okay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We ask for strength and learn from Him since He Himself will be with us.
He has promised that he will wipe our tears away, tears means we have to hurt at times, but we belong to a kingdom that cannot be shaken.........how many times are we told to set our minds on things in Heaven because that is where Christ our life is??? Do we believe it?
Job's words are fitting.........."I came into the world naked, thats how I'm leaving"
May God grant us the grace to live out 1 John 2:15-17
Are there any other amens besides Jimmy's?
Or am I just filled with myself, deluded and completely in the dark here on thee points?

I'm open for correction brethren.......I am not opposed to God using all the nations to take up arms at different times, I am not opposed to do what Paul says in 1 Tim. 2
But we are not in any sense a part of the old covenant, the USA is not the new Israel of God, The bulk of this countries laws conflict with scripture, same as every other country on the planet..........this idea of a theocracy in this earth is crap. The new earth is our hope, lets act like it. My advice, re-read 1 Peter, he is walking in accord with the gospel in this letter, he has gone beyond the correction he had to face from Paul in Antioch.................lastly Mary, please understand that I wouldnt even take the time of day to write this if I could care less

Yeah I'll think through those things in time, maybe the Lord will change my thinking. Just dont think that I dont care about Christ or set my mind on things of the Lord because I disagree some. I just think that sometimes governments can be so corrupt that they become like murderers, no one accountable to their actions. And I wouldn't just sit back and watch my family be murdered by a criminal coming into my house, why would I sit back and watch the government kill them? Most likely I would flee anyways from the harm, try to free my family so they wouldn't get killed. Or find some way to surrender so in prison. But its not right for anyone, government, police, anyone to come and murder families who have done nothing wrong besides maybe worship God freely. But that is exactly what happens, especially in third world countries at times. I bet there have been many believers who tried to fight back for their right to live, and yet were killed for standing for Christ and not denying their faith. If you're faced with someone trying to kill you, its usually natural reaction to struggle against them. not just say, okay go ahead and kill me. That's all Im trying to say... I dont get why some people here think that is such a sin and wrong? But I'll pray and read the Scriptures, who knows the Lord has changed my mind before.

But of course these are all hypothetical scenarios that pry will never happen in my lifetime anyways. So before Im made fun of for believing what I do, Im going to bow out of this conversation... no clue where the whole Batman thing came from either...

Bryan,

Your comments here are full of wisdom and truth. We are foreigners here on earth and our home is in Heaven above. The only example in scripture that we have for persecution is to flee it when possible for the sake of the Gospel message we bring. If God ordains that a bunch of terrorist or our government kills me or my family then I'm being sent HOME. If I can flee death and punishment for further spread of the gospel then I'll do it. Pauls words in Phi 1:19-24 express this exactly.

For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, according to my earnest expectation and hope that I shall be ashamed in nothing, but as always now Christ shall be magnified in my body with all boldness, whether it is by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor. Yet I do not know what I shall choose. For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.
(Philippians 1:19-24)

The only weapons that the Lord gives us are spiritual ones(Eph 6) The sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, and prayer. These are our ONLY weapons and they are to be used to accomplish our mission of preaching the gospel in this foreign land we reside in. As sons of the living God this is our only purpose in this life, to be ambassadors for Him.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God, praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching to this very thing with all perseverance and supplication for all saints. And pray for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in bonds; so that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
(Ephesians 6:17-20)

For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12 )

This is our weapon. Lets go to battle!

Bryan has asked if anyone else will say "Amen" to what he has set forth here. Well, I will, and I am the wife being mentioned in the hypothetical situations he has described. I agree with both Bryan and Jimmy completely. I understand fully that my life is not in my husband's hands--it's in God's hands. If Bryan were to start gathering up arms and ammunition to "fend off" the government when they come to persecute us, I would say to him, "So, have you decided you are no longer willing to suffer for the name of Christ?" How can we say that it was God-honoring for the Christians in the first century under Roman rule to go to their deaths praising God, without political or armed revolt, and yet it would not be appropriate for our time? What has changed??

BTW, I also agree with Bryan that without God giving me the strength to bear up under such circumstances, I would absolutely act in a completely fleshly manner as well. My old nature does NOT want to bear the cross one bit! So our prayer is that if the time comes for us to suffer for His name, He will give us the ability that we lack right now. We're certainly not going to "volunteer" for suffering, and we will flee it if at all possible, but if it comes, what can we say but "the hand of the Lord has done this"? (Job 12:6-10)

What is the difference between an armed group of like minded individuals who rally for a cause and an organized army? Example:

The U.S. government abolishes the constitution. So individuals who disagree and organize themselves to overthrow the government. The government gets wind of this and the military is dispatched to capture and imprison these groups for treason. But these groups do not go willing instead a new civil war is started and many die.

question: Who is in violation of the words of scripture here?

Mike, I guess the difference would be that you believe the constitution of the U.S. is worth shedding blood over. Bryan and I do not agree with that, because this nation is not our home, and our conviction is that the "rights" we have under the constitution are not actual rights at all, but privileges we enjoy (possibly only temporarily, because God may decide to remove them from us at any time He sees fit, for His own purposes).

Our thought is to encourage our brothers and sisters here to keep a light hold on the things of this world (not necessarily talking material possessions here), and not invest our time, efforts, emotions, etc., in things that are passing away.

Wow, that was one of the most ignorant statements I have ever seen typed. It's not the paper that people are shedding blood for but the ideas written on it. FREEDOM. If you don't think that's worth dying for then you deserve to be captured and tortured by those who appose freedom. Then when those who are laying their lives on the line for freedom slay your captures, you will praise God for delivering you.

Michael,
That is quite a strong statement to Lori, that she deserves to be captured and tortured. The difference seems to me to be that Bry and Lori and many more of us are of the conviction that it is the LORD who gives or takes away FREEDOM, it isn't necessarily a God given right. He makes free men and he makes mens slaves and so IF HE decides to put this country in a different place then isn't HE the one you have an argument with?

Darn right this is strong language! My point is all of us enjoy the fruit of those who have fought for freedom. Yes, it is God who gives and takes away freedom; and it is also God who raises people up to fight and possibly die for it. Don't give me that 'religionist' garbage that "this is not our home"; that is obvious. You guys are making such a stupid argument that it's insulting.

Why do you go to work or the grocery store? God is your provider, all you need is the Word to live off of. Why do you love the world so much that you conform to it's ways by enslaving yourself to debt (mortgage, credit cards, car loan)?

Give me a break.

Also my point about being "captured and tortured" is that you would be singing a different tune when you rescuers broke down the door before your head was chopped off. Not that you need to be punished for your view.

I'll say it again Mike to you, the founders of this document said that ALL people were created equal and endowed with the same inalienable rights...................brother, you show me how many of those men that were slave owners carried out what they said................they were liars, and why would you ever even consider the counsel of a document written by a bunch of liars to produce truth?? Doesnt John in his 1st epistle say that no lie is of the truth??
Do you think the civil war was not some of the fruit of these lies??
You show me in scripture where lies produce truth...................the ONLY DOCUMENTS to live by for an elect sheep is the scriptures.
Period, it shows us how to deal with corrupt government in Acts ch. 5 in a way that actually honors Christ.
If you want to war against flesh and blood with weapons of the flesh, go for it, just dont slap our Lord's Name on it.
All new covenant scripture says you are fighting the wrong enemies with their weapons.
I dont ever get the idea from Paul in any epistle he wrote that just because the people he killed were in abetter state of existence..................he found any comfort in that or ever attempted to justify it.............how may Sauls might you be killing for you beloved earthly freedom, that Jesus dwells in at a brand new baby stage??
If you have a copy of the Lamb's book of life, I'll bow again to your wisdom and admit that it was in fact I who was displaying the wisdom of the world and love of the world.

I'm just about to post on my own blog some things that relate to the "priesthood" of all believers................I may need your correction there too..........so brother, may it be iron sharpening iron, my views do not demand that anyone holding contrary views are reprobates...............so I say, lets get to it with 1 peter, re read it and tell me what suffering looks like there and correct response to the authority Peter is talking about, because it is God ordained authority.........just like Jesus hit Pilate in the face with, so the only sword I want to be able to rightly use, is the one that Paul mentions in Eph. 6, the very same one that comes out of Jesus mouth in Rev. 19:15, and notice, the entire army that follows Jesus out of heaven dont have to lift a finger because Jesus alone can handle it.

also, we understood your point Mike about being captured and tortured, look thru our posts, we are admitting that the law of sin is still at work in this flesh, we would need God in grace and by His Spirit to strengthen us to do what every other saint who suffered the same fate did.

I may be wrong, but it sounds to me like you are saying you are willing to lay the cross aside, I mean the one Christ gave you to carry, not His.

Bryan you are a smart guy and you know the gospel and are a dear brother in Christ but this is religionist garbage. In no way does what you wrote describe my views. Frankly it's like reading an incoherent rant on free will and having no desire to dissect it. Enjoy your milk and honey...and your freedom.

I just like to point out I dont think we'll ever resolve our differences, we noticed from when we talked on threads about politics that many here at pnet have different views on this. Some believe we shouldn't fight for freedom at all, just let ourselves be captured and killed whether by terrorists or government. While others believe we should fight for freedom or die in the process of defending our right to life and freedom, to not be murdered, to defend ourselves. I cant remember the qoute that Brandan gave, or that Nicholas repeated. Wait its.. Give me freedom or give me death I believe? I agree with that.. but some dont and I understand that its okay. Things like this are those little things that Gods Word warns us not to let divide us. Im glad we can talk freely of these things, just be careful.

Either way point being we all view this differently, and have our convictions and Bible verses to back it up. So I dont think we are going to ever come to an agreement. Pry should just leave this alone.. Im sorry I brought it up again.

Mary and Mike,

Do you have any new covenant scriptures to support your views that we should ever actively rebel to overthrow a government we don't agree with? Is there any scriptural example that shows we should fight for things here on this earth? I am looking for scripture because from my fleshly desire I would say yes we should fight for freedom and America but I can find no example in scripture where this is shown. I see plently to the contrary. Bryan and I have listed many scriptures that we feel support the view we hold to. We are willing to be corrected through scripture alone. I have traveled around much of the world and seen very different governments and America is very unique in her freedoms. If it is God's will to take these away are you going to oppose God? I will await your scriptural response that is not based on emotion or american pride.

Okay Mike, since it is "religionist garbage" we are dealing with here..........then if I am a "dear brother"........the as John says, love in deed and in truth, not merely in word only.
Here is your chance. What genunie sheep who loves Jesus does not at least grow to a point that he wants what comes out of his mouth to be the truth? What sheep wouldnt desire to be corrected on such issues?
I am not a mennonite, quaker, or amish.....none of those "religionists" would consider my ideas on "pacifism" to blend well with theirs as in their minds I would be a hypocrite, they also would have my gospel because I am a Predestinarian that believes the things going in to PNAF and as can be brone out by my postings on the forum.
So, deal with the scriptures and the questions that I have asked or just admit you dont have the time or dont want to take the time or find it pointless.
I will say this Mike, I hope you dont treat your wife with the disrespect you have shown my wife in this particular blog thread. I think that most on the forum who have gotent to know my wife a little, consider her to be a sister in Christ, I think your comments are out of line here too.

Mary, I posted what I did in response to your post. You know that I already know even believers are not going to agree.......thats not whati is being addressed here.
If we debate these things in a manner this is consistent with "speaking the truth to one another in love"......then we will continue to profit.
There are some who have left the forum (not to far from where I live for example) that say we are seeking knowledge for the sake of itself and for the post part (despite the old man still hanging around) is completely and utterly false.

Here is my last point Mary, if you are not willing to exhaust an issue with me where we both lay back in our easy chairs and say, well, we have both tried to speak our minds in a way that is "provoking one another to love and good deeds" and have offered all we can, we agree to disagree, but at least we have made a genuine attempt with one another and we actually understand the other person's view.......and because of good challenges from scriptural thinking.........we both gain in different ways.........and maybe our dialogue will edify some and maybe it will just bring out the old man in others.

QUOTE: JIMMY'S WORDS

"
Mary and Mike,

Do you have any new covenant scriptures to support your views that we should ever actively rebel to overthrow a government we don't agree with? Is there any scriptural example that shows we should fight for things here on this earth? I am looking for scripture because from my fleshly desire I would say yes we should fight for freedom and America but I can find no example in scripture where this is shown. I see plently to the contradictory. Bryan and I have listed many scriptures that we feel support the view we hold to. We are willing to be corrected through scripture alone. I have traveled around much of the world and seen very different governments and America is very unique in her freedoms. If it is God's will to take these away are you going to oppose God? I will await your scriptural response that is not based on emotion or american pride.

Just wanted to say amen brother

I apologize for being disrespectful

Bryan, nah I dont mind going through Gods Word with you and talking of this topic I just dont want it to become to "heated" or such. And I think in one thread I did try and explain my thoughts and Scriptures, maybe not tho. I'll work on it in time and get back to you. Maybe more in private though, but for the edification of Forester as well. I'll provide the Scriptures ONLY in the new testament since that is where you all want me to go, on why I believe we should stand for our freedom and not let government, terrorists or murderers just kill our family without defending ourselves. Im not talking about overthrowing a government, Im talking about defending ourselves from anyone who chooses to come after us for wrong reasons to imprison us or take our lives. One if imprison I would flee.. two if take my life I would try and fight back and flee. Doing my best to try not and kill anyone though. But in time I'll provide the Scriptures I believe back up my thoughts that we shouldn't just sit back and allow our loved ones to be slaughtered to death by evil men. Though you already have the Scriptures from the Old Testament, but for some reason you seem to say that nothing is valid anymore in the OT, then why do you read it? Just curious but maybe thats another discussion. I know about the new covenant and such.. Im not talking abotu that. I feel that all of Gods Word has things that we can learn from, even the Old Testament to some degree. Thats why I still read it.

Mary,

I love the old testament, but you need to know where to determine what is different from National Israel and the Church. God told Israel to do things that Christians should never do. That is a completely different topic though. I recommend starting your study with 1 Peter 2:11-25. Does your view mesh with what Peter is saying there.

Also check out these:
John 15:18-27
John 18:36
Acts 5:35-42
Romans 12:14-21
Romans 13:1-7
2 Corinthians 10:1-7
Titus 2:11-15
Titus 3:1-2

Maybe we can start a thread on the forum to discuss some of these verses and how they relate to this topic. I will let you or someone else start one when you have read the passages over and had time to study them some.

Also for reading I found this article under self defense online helpful explaining my thoughts more http://www.survivalblog.com/prayer.html. And this site: http://www.geocities.com/jbaixeras/iswar.htm.

Yeah maybe, if thats okay with Brandan? I know we were trying to stay away from discussions of this nature for a time.

And these are some verses I found for my position:
Luke 22:36-38 and 2 Cor. 11:26,17 Jesus tells his disciples to sell their clothes and buy a sword. Kind of a good verse for carrying a gun too, and self defense which is what I am talking about.

Also if you're child was being brutally raped would you sit back and do nothing? Or would you defend her. Thats what Im talking about.. whether it be a criminal or a corrupt goverment. Not resisting evil and allowing it to continue seems morally wrong to me. See Proverbs 25:26

Jesus nor disciples ever tell military believers to resign from their work. (Matthew 8:5-13, Luke 3:14).

About turning the other cheek that is talking about retaliation, revenge not about self defense.

New Testament commends Old Testament warriors for their military acts of faith, Hebrews 11:30-40.

Acts 10, Cornelious a centurion, Roman soldier was called a righteous and god fearing man, yet he was a soldier.

John 15:14 "Greater love has no one that this, that he lay down his life for his friends" I would protect you and others from evil, from murderers, anyone who wrongfuly wants to kill you or torture you, I would come and rescue you.. help you flee. The new testament is full of people fleeing government and murderers.

Solomon a time for everything.. a time for love, a time for hate, a time for peace, a time for war.

John 2:15-16 Jesus drives out people from the temple, with a scourge of cords, sounds like a whip to me. Maybe he even got some of them with the whip, caused bodily harm? Jesus stood up against evil doers.

That is what I have for now.. so as i said earlier.. you have your convictions and Scripture references and I have mine, my morals and convictions. If ever the day comes where our governemnt begins to kill innocent lives because of what they believer or what not. I will help those people escape, and if need be I will defend myself, my family and my friends. If ever the day comes where a murderer tried to take my life, my childrens or my friends I will defend myself. I just dont see my changing my conviction on this, but in the days ahead I'll read your Scripture references. Thank you for these discussions, this has always been a heated debate on such an issue.. whether war is ever just, whether defending oneself is, etc. I just dont think we'll ever see eye to eye on this, but maybe I do pray for that. Thanks again. Take care and God bless, now off to bed didn't realize the time!

Personally, I have no problem with self defense. If someone attacks me I will probably fight back. I own guns and have been trained in sword fighting and I know how to defend myself. My main point is rebelling against God ordained governments would be against scripture. As for war, if I was ever drafted, I would serve without a problem. Would I kill in self defense of myself or my family? Probably, if I thought that was the best thing at the time. Vengeance is clearly God's alone. If someone walks right now into my house with a knife or a gun I'm going to do my best to defend my family from harm, unless God reveals otherwise to me. I have a sword about 10 feet away from me, so I probably pick it up and start swinging. All things are ordained by God. Maybe I'll be rebuked like Peter was, maybe not. Self defense is a completely different issue than rebelling against a government which is clearly ordained and controlled by God. Scripture shows that too well. Defending yourself from death or harm is not vengeance. Rebelling against a God ordained government is clearly wrong according to the scriptures I list above. Serving in the military is fine as far as I'm concerned.

If the government as a whole decided that what I believed was wrong and they were going to throw me in jail or kill me I probably would choose to flee or hide if possible but I don't think I would take up arms against the government. That would be wrong. For America, if our government ever gets too corrupt then the states have a legal method of dealing with it. Secession! If some states secede from the union then they are now the legal government and if war follows then it all get complicated. Rebellion and secession are very different. One is a legal way the other not. If I am going to be persecuted or killed for something it better be for my faith in Christ and the gospel and not for my rebellion to the Government. If any government lets me worship God how I like then I should have no problem with the government.

Thank you Jimmy for putting your thoughts together this way. I agree so much with what you have said here. We all have an instinct to defend ourselves and those we love, if we are able to do so. I have been asked if I'm going to get a gun now that I have lost my husband and even in that I have to say no. I'd probably shoot myself in the foot. But maybe I will get some pepper spray or something along those lines to defend myself against attack.

I personally must trust the Lord's GOOD watch care over me in ALL circumstances and if I'm ridiculed for that, so be it! Some will be able to flee in the day, some won't. Each and every circumstance ordained of our Sovereign God.

This is a matter of personal liberty as far as I'm concerned. As for me, I believe in personal self-defense including organized armed rebellion against tyrannical government for the defense of freedom and liberty. It's a matter of joining one government against another.

Originally Posted by Darth Gill

It's a matter of joining one government against another.

Especially if the Government is a State or a Group of States that seceded from the Union. If that were to ever happen and civil war resulted, I'd side with the seceding States, since they would then be the God Ordained government. If I was a citizen of the new country and was drafted then I'd serve. I firmly believe in the federalist system and states rights, which today have pretty much disappeared. This whole concept would require the majority of the populace in a State to vote to secede which I doubt will happen in most states. We'll see how bad things get with Obama.

Well yeah Forester I would go the route of sucession, the legal way. Like in the Civil War, that seemed pretty legal to me and a just war to some degree. Im not talking about some lil coup for rebellion against the government. Im saying if one day government officials become like Hitler, killing off everyone. Im going to be part of the people who oppose him hopefully without force, but if they come after my family I'll defend myself and flee. I personally would never be able to kill anyone. I just thought you and some people here were saying that its always wrong to defend yourself, whether that be against a theif, or corrupt government who has come to take your life, example someone like Hitler. Thanks for explaining your views. No I agree we are to obey our goverment so as long as they dont ask us to do something against Gods Word. For our Father in Heaven is our leader and Lord above the government. So I will do what is right in His eye. And I also agree that vengeance is the Lords, if someone comes and steals your car, yet you know who it is.. you dont go out and kill them, we have laws set up for that these days. Vengeance and retaliation is the Lords, turning the other cheek would apply in a situation like that. Let God deal with Him and the law. Im talking about a corrupt goverment, or leader.. who is like Hitler and decides to kill off Christians, talking about them becoming evil having no right to kill us or imprison us in concentration camps. And if that were to happen I would surely stand for freedom or die trying.

Oh and Forester what you just posted above my post is exactly what I believe, and others who have been talking about this. I wans't talking about something illegal I was merely thinking about the Civil War, that and Hitler some.

Bryan and Michael, just so both of you know the real deal,
Batman would kick some serious A$$.
When Batman shows up even Chuck Noris quivers.

Chuck Norris never "quivers" !

Oh no! lol Should we have a wrestling match between Batman and Chuck Norris? Lol that'd be hard who I'd bet on. I've always been a fan of Chuck Norris in Walker Texas Ranger! lol I swear I've pry watched all the episodes by now, and some twice!

Now batman and Chuck, while you guys are going at it, the Joker snuck back in your area batman, and chuck, I heard the Christie Brinkley literally tarred and feathered you, how were you able to even post this Chuck, but I will say that there is a new sherriff comin' to town.................