Craig kennedy

craig says:

[QUOTE]
Reformed believers have normally held that the order of salvation (ordo salutis) is:

-regeneration
-calling
-faith
-justification

However, is this biblically correct? Does justification precede regeneration or is the timing of justification at the moment of conversion ie when we believe?

[/QUOTE]

Hi craige,

Justication is How God views His children the elect , He views them as righteous always because first and foremost before the world began, they had an exisitence as the seed of Jesus christ. By virtue of this union we have been declared righteous in Gods Mind. However in demonstrating His gracious eternal purpose in christ, The elect fell into sin in adam , nevertheless , though this caused them to experience temporal condemnation it never caused them to forfiet their standing in their covenant head The Lord Jesus christ..This only necessitated the predetermined plan for our federal head to in time come and redeem his bride from all iniquityby his blood. However the guilt for the fall had been already transferred to the charge of our surety of the everlasting covenant, The God Man Jesus christ, hence though we come into the world in adam experiencing the devastating consequences of the fall, yet God does not impute to our charge the guilt of those iniquties we come out experiencing..

rom 4:

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[B]8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. [/B]

Also 2 cor 5:

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,[B][U] not imputing their trespasses unto them;[/U][/B] and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So in time even when we are experiencing our depravity By an act of newbirth God quickens the elect individual and by means of the gospel communicates to them the good news of their salvation, eph 1:

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, [B]the gospel of your salvation[/B]: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Notice it says they heard [ by newbirth] the gospel of [B]their [ it was theirs by inheritance and election] salvation..[/B]

This means they are brought into the knowledge of and assurance of their [B]Justified state[/B] before God..This is good news wouldnt you say ? They did not earn it , work for it , but it had been always theirs by grace given them before the world began..

2 tim 1:

9[B]Who hath saved us[/B], and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, [B]which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,[/B]

So , the elect by the gospel come into the knowledge of their justication before God a justification they had before the world began in spite of what occured in time via the fall..

Thank you Darryl for your post,

I read your argument with great interest and I am actually in agreement with what you have written.

The old reformed view that justification first takes place when one believes on Jesus Christ presented in the gospel is defective.

I can see what you are saying. As elect believers we are eternally justified, there never was a time when we were not covered with the blood of Christ. That is why the supralapsarian position is the correct view on the order of God's decrees.

However, by God's decree we fell in Adam and so at the cross all of God's elect are imputed with the righteousness of Christ; then the effectual call goes out to the regenerated to repent and believe the gospel in order to manifest the reality of our eternal election.

Thank you dear brother, Darryl

In Christ
Craig

hi craig , it is very good hearing you say these things, and may God be glorified. One comment on this point:

[QUOTE]
However, by God's decree we fell in Adam and[B] so at the cross all of God's elect are imputed with the righteousness of Christ[/B]
[/QUOTE]

You may Differ but at least think about it..I believe the righteousness of christ was imputed before the actual event of the cross [B]but was still premised on the cross[/B]. In other words the benfits of the cross were realized before the cross ... David made this statement before the cross..ps 32:

1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2[B]Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,[/B] and in whose spirit there is no guile.

This seems to indicate he realized the non imputation of sin for some even before the actual event of the cross..Let me know your thoughts..

Thanks...

Hi Darryl,

Thanks for your input on these issues. I humbly say that it has been a long journey that God has had me on to bring me this far by his grace. If you check out my profile on PN it is an honest and accurate confession of where I am at the moment. However, I do not know it all and I have not arrived. There is so much more for me to learn!

I have been following your arguments on the thread "the external call of the gospel". I am fascinated by them although, at this moment, not completely convinced of them. I am genuinely open, though, to discuss these issues more with you in a brotherly spirit so that I learn more. Would you like to do this? I am not promising you anything, you will understand, or guaranteeing that I will eventually adopt your position but I do want to dialogue with you brother. Are you on for it on this basis?

You will note from my profile that I do not believe the gospel is "offered" to all in the preaching; so I reject the "free offer"! I am a supralapsarian because I believe there never was a time when the elect were not justified. Yes, I see your point in your post on this blog that the benefits of justification were procured before the cross but actually premised at the cross. I can go along with this.

Where I am still struggling, is that although God has an eternal hatred for the reprobate is there still some non-saving love of God for them; just as although God eternally loves the elect, is He still not displeased with the elect when they sin both pre and post conversion?

I realise you may not agree with me; but I am more than happy to, at least, discuss the issues with you.

I look forward to hearing from you.

In Christ,

Craig

craig ask:

[QUOTE]
Where I am still struggling, is that although God has an eternal hatred for the reprobate is there still some non-saving love of God for them;
[/QUOTE]

Craig I cannot see where there is any non saving love , because love is always defined in the redemptive framework of Jeus christ. even jn 3 16..

But now God excercises a benevelent providence for the elect and non elect alike which furnishes His creation with temporal blessings but this springs from His provodential care over His creation , even these temporal blessins IMO the non elect partake in because Gods overall purpose for the elect here on earth is yet complted..

But Gods temporal providential blessings to the non elect even though they derive comfort from them in this life are not tokens of Gods Love which is only displayed via Jesus christ..

[QUOTE]
just as although God eternally loves the elect, is He still not displeased with the elect when they sin both pre and post conversion?

[/QUOTE]

Very Good question, Here is where I stand right now .. either pre or post conversion God views His elect via the imputed righteousness of christ and therefore positionally we are totally accepted and 1000% approved of God..

However I do believe God is displeased with sin in the lives of the elect, from a Fatherly standpoint and will promote a practical life in line with the covenent blessings promised. When I say a practical by no means am I saying sinless please understand this. Now case in point..I believe there is no more beloved person in writ than King David who no doubt in my mind was Totally accepted by electing love and grace and clothed with the imputed righteousness of christ...

But David throughout His life exprienced conviction of sin and Gods displeasure of the same..

ps 32:


3When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. 5I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

cp ps 51:

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

God has promised His covenant people blessings of practical religon..notice:

ezk 36:

27And I will put my spirit within you,[B] and [U]cause[/U] you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and[U] do them[/U].[/B]

do you as one of Gods elect have uncleaness in your life ? Notice this promise to Gods covenant people..

ezk 36:

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and [B]ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.[/B]

Very similar language to 1 jn 1:

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins,[B] he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [/B]

[B]This springs from Gods covenant love ..[/B]

[B]Heb 12:[/B]


4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, [B]that we might be partakers of his holiness. [/B][B] 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. [/B]

so to answer your question yes I believe God is displeased with sin in the life of His children..but He[B] in His own Sovereign way and time[/B] will rid His child of those sins that need to be rid of in our life..

Now again this has absolutely nothing to do with our perfect standing in christ as to being more accepted of God..that is immutably settled by our being in christ even before the world began..

But there comes a time when God will Give birth to [B] in our actual lives[/B] what He already sees us as..in christ..

God does not promote a practical life in order for us to become children of the king but because [B]we are children of the king..[/B]

[B]Hope this has answered your inquiry..[/B]

craig ask :

[QUOTE]
have been following your arguments on the thread "the external call of the gospel". I am fascinated by them although, at this moment, not completely convinced of them. I am genuinely open, though, to discuss these issues more with you in a brotherly spirit so that I learn more. Would you like to do this? I am not promising you anything, you will understand, or guaranteeing that I will eventually adopt your position but I do want to dialogue with you brother. Are you on for it on this basis?

[/QUOTE]

sure..

Yes, thanks Darryl

I have learned heaps from you already.

When you speak of God's benevolent providence over the elect and non-elect alike, are you saying that God has a form of loving-kindness toward the non-elect which, of course, is non-redemptive?

I need clarification on this.

Craig

craig ask

[QUOTE]When you speak of God's benevolent providence over the elect and non-elect alike, are you saying that God has a form of loving-kindness toward the non-elect which, of course, is non-redemptive?


I need clarification on this. [/quote]

No I would not even classify it as lovingkindness. Because lovingkindness is the hebrew chessed, david uses the word in ps 51:

1Have mercy upon me, O God, [B]according to thy [U]lovingkindness[/U][/B]: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

This lovingkindness flows from covenental Love , which of course would be grounded in the everlasting covenent Love of God..founded in christ..

If you recall david rejoiced in this covenent being revealed to him..

2 sam 23:

Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an [B]everlasting[/B] [B]covenant[/B], ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

So I would not conclude that the non elect are direct benficaries of the lovingkindness of God..

Look at it Like this..

You are a prison Guard and one of the imates is your son you love..you provide the basic necessities of life to all the inmates because its your Job but you have a special place in your heart for [B]your son[/B] your supplying him with the same basic needs is from an entirely different frame of mind..I hope you see my point and forgive me if it falls short of the intended purpose to convey..

Hi Darryl,

Thank you very much for your illustration of the Prison Guard. This spoke powerfully to me of the special love of God for His elect people.

However, are the other human beings who are reprobate:

1. Made in God's image

2. The recipients of any form of God's love whatever; whether that form of non-saving, non-covenantal love is compassion, kindness etc.

Does God have any form of regard for the reprobate? Or is His giving them good providential gifts only a token of His disfavour?

Craig

[QUOTE]
Hi Darryl,

Thank you very much for your illustration of the Prison Guard. This spoke powerfully to me of the special love of God for His elect people.

However, are the other human beings who are reprobate:

1. Made in God's image

2. The recipients of any form of God's love whatever; whether that form of non-saving, non-covenantal love is compassion, kindness etc.

Does God have any form of regard for the reprobate? Or is His giving them good providential gifts only a token of His disfavour?

[/QUOTE]

Hi craig , let me see if I can be more clearer on what I have been saying..

1st .. No I dont believe that the non elect are made in Gods image but in the image of their father the devil..

Let me explain..I believe that in the beginning when God said [ spoke] Let us make man in our image and our likeness. This voice I believe that to be of the eternal word of God , The God man mediator.. at this very time He was being Mediator of God and Men..All things were created by Him..

col 1:

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[B] 16For by him[ the God Man Mediator] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [/B] [B]17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. [/B]

so when creating adam in His image and likeness , He created adam the same way he had been brought forth in His spiritual humanity..I know this will draw objection but please bare with me..

I believe when the spiritual humanity of christ was begotten [ NOT HIS DEITY] that begotten in him also was his church His bride , his seed..

This I believe to be the meaning of Jn 17:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou [B]hast given him.[/B]

As adam was created with his bride in him [eve] this was part of being created in the God Mans image and likeness..as the elect were created in adam due to their physical existence , they had prior been begotten in the exisitence of the God Man mediator..For in all things He must have preeminence..

I believe when The God man Mediator blew in adam the breath of life their began the natural exiistence of the church the elect , so No , if this be true , the non elect were never made in the likeness and image of God , but the prefallen elect were.. How do you read me so far ?

craig ask:

[QUOTE]However, are the other human beings who are reprobate:

1. Made in God's image

2. The recipients of any form of God's love whatever; whether that form of non-saving, non-covenantal love is compassion, kindness etc.

Does God have any form of regard for the reprobate[/QUOTE]

Also craig answer this question in relation to your questions ?

Does God have any type of Love for satan ? I believe God has eternally the exact same dispostion towards satans seed as He does towards satan their Father..

Hi Darryl,

Thanks for your responses.

You are , in effect, saying that God has two separate created peoples:

1. The elect made in God's image and given eternally to the God-Man, the Mediator.

2. The reprobate created as the seed of the devil and the sons of disobedience.

My immediate thoughts and reaction is that this would appear to fly in the face of the teachings of a common fall, the unity of the human race and the one bloodline of the human race.

Can you please explain further?

Craig

craig ask

[QUOTE]You are , in effect, saying that God has two separate created peoples:
[/QUOTE]

Yes..

.[QUOTE]
The elect made in God's image and given eternally to the God-Man, the Mediator.

2. The reprobate created as the seed of the devil and the sons of disobedience.


[/QUOTE]

absolutely

[QUOTE]
My immediate thoughts and reaction is that this would appear to fly in the face of the teachings of a common fall, the unity of the human race and the one bloodline of the human race.

Can you please explain further?


[/QUOTE]

Sure but later, please check out the archives on the common fall some pretty good material...

I find the chapter on Ordo Salutis in Dr. Robert Morey's book Studies in the Atonement interesting. Someone else here was reading that book too.

The Ordo Salutis is primarily a pedagogical construct.

Hi Rachael,

Thanks for that helpful link.

By the way, could you in simple precis form outline Dr Morey's schema and construct.

I would appreciate that.

Thanks,

Craig