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bevan

how adam sinned

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i have been doing alot of study and research as to how adam could have sinned given that he had a nature that was good when GOD created him,i am still working thu this,but would like to share with you my thoughts,please correct me where you think needed.

ok here goes,we know that God created adam good obviously with the potentiality to sin,as a 5 point calvinist i also believe that GOD caused adam to sin,as God as aristotle put it is at the beginning of the causal chain and thus the ultimate cause of everything that comes to pass..Now to understand how moral evil came into the universe we first have to define what evil is,it is here that augustine enters the picture,he defined evil as not a thing,it is not a substance,it is not material but immaterial yet real,he further went on to define evil as the absense of goodness,i think this definition helps us tremendously in our understanding of Gods awesome power..

so then with this definition in mind we now have the ingredients to help us understand how adam sinned given his good nature..God wanted for evil to enter the picture but because evil is not a substance it cannot be created,so if it cannot be created then how did it come to exsist? The only answer i can think of is by way of causation and not creation.
first we need a moral law giver..God..then God needs to create a secondary moral agent with the ability to make choices,not independantly of Him tho as arminians claim,then God has to give this moral creature a moral law to obey,then God causes this moral creature to disobey his law thus the entrance of sin..now lets see if we can break this down further..I believe adam could not have chosen equally between obeying God and disobeying God as many many christians claim,i believe adam in his created state could only obey God..Jesus said a good tree cannot produce bad fruit nor a bad tree produce good fruit,the tree being the nature..So how then did adam sin? It is crucial i believe to know and understand that only God can do that which is righteous and good,that is all goodness flows out from God ALONE..

Now moving on,it is my belief that when God created adam good that it is a metaphysical goodness the bible is refering to by way of direct creation by God and not a moral goodness..adams nature was that of a seed..alive but inactive.. to activate adams nature God gave adam rules,now the only way for adam to obey God is the same way christians do,by way of God working in and thu us,and so God directly activates the dorment nature of adam with His divine influence, God being the ultimate and direct cause of adams obedience and adam being the effect..or is it that we can do that which is pleasing and good in and of ourselves? for who first gave to God that God should repay him? and what is it that we have thjat we did not recieve? ONLY God ALONE is good..

Moving on..johnathan edwards stated that we make choices in accordance with our natures our greatest desire at the time of choosing,thus the ability to choose equally between good and evil is a myth..Now God didnot create adam as we know with a sinful nature thus adam could not have chosen equally between two natures..Adam sinned i believe by way of God changing his nature from good to sinful by way of indirect causation,by way of God withdrawing His divine influence upon adam thus leaving adam alone,to himself to do as he pleases,the result is adams nature and all his desires change to sinful,adam now acts in accordance with his new defective nature..

The absense of Gods holy infuence upon adam is the ultimate and indirect cause,NOT direct cause of adams sinful nature.God did not directly inject a evil desire into adam,rather the sinful desire in adam was the result of Gods grace upon adam,leaving adam simply to himself...Adam now because of his sinful nature do only evil,just as prior to the fall he could only do good,only because God was working thu him..God now uses the evil nature in man to bring to pass HIS WILL,mans intentions being evil and Gods righteous..

NOTE..johnathan edwards gives a analogy of the sun to illustrate..dark rays do not flow out from the sun but are the result of the suns absence,the sun is the ultimate cause but not the direct cause of darkness,thus evil does NOT flow out from God but is the result of Gods absenceupon the secondary agent,the evil flows out from man..thus God is the ultimate and indirect cause of evil wile man is the direct cause.

God changes our natures at His soveriegn pleasure,He changes the nature of a non christians to a christians nature,from bad to good,thus why can He not change adams from good to bad..

any correction or further thoughts would be appreciated..

soli deo gloria.

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  1. trav's Avatar
    Bevan,
    My suggestion to you is that in your study you leave Augustine out of it and stick with the Scriptures. Augustine's presuppositions were false which led him to false conclusions. Second, if you haven't already, read "The Two Seeds" article by Bob Higby and see what you pull from it.
  2. Highlyfavored's Avatar
    In Genesis when God created something and then stated that it was good is a statement to the thing's/person's adequacy to perform the task it was designed for. It was not a statement about the thing's/person's forensic state before God.

    Trav's suggestion on the two seeds thread is great, simply put: Since Adam sinned, he had to have a natural proclivity to do so, or he never would have.
  3. bevan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by trav
    Bevan,
    My suggestion to you is that in your study you leave Augustine out of it and stick with the Scriptures. Augustine's presuppositions were false which led him to false conclusions. Second, if you haven't already, read "The Two Seeds" article by Bob Higby and see what you pull from it.
    hi trav,all i take from augustine is his definition of evil nothing else..i have read the two seeds and disagree that God directly creates evil,that is that he does not directly inject evil into our souls...after adam sinned God creates the evil by using the evil desires which are already present in our natures as a result of God withdrawing His grace upon adam causing adams nature to become sinful.

    God is the ultimate cause,and as ultimate He can cause events to happen either directly or indirectly,in regards to adam He caused his fall indirectly not directly by injecting sinful desires into adam..now after adam fell God creates evil to happen out of the sinful desires in us that is already present in us as a result of adams fall....

    dark rays do not flow out from the sun,but are the result of the suns absence..Gods absence of His divine grace upon adam caused the evil nature in adam from which all evil flows out from...
  4. Saint Nicholas's Avatar
    Hello Beven,

    I will forever disagree with you!

    You say you take from Augustine only his definition of evil nothing else. Phooey on you!! You should be better prepared to tell some of us that on this forum.

    We are not ignorant of Augustine's misguided soteriology pertaining to the nature of man's (Adam) suppossed free will in relation to a partially sovereign God. Of course there is no such thing as a partially sovereign God. But many a reformed teach it!

    I could debate this forever. But not in this blog.

    Please read all pertinent threads and then if you still maintain your view. Please start another thread.

    I will be waiting!

    Nicholas
  5. trav's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by bevan
    hi trav,all i take from augustine is his definition of evil nothing else..i have read the two seeds and disagree that God directly creates evil,that is that he does not directly inject evil into our souls...after adam sinned God creates the evil by using the evil desires which are already present in our natures as a result of God withdrawing His grace upon adam causing adams nature to become sinful.

    God is the ultimate cause,and as ultimate He can cause events to happen either directly or indirectly,in regards to adam He caused his fall indirectly not directly by injecting sinful desires into adam..now after adam fell God creates evil to happen out of the sinful desires in us that is already present in us as a result of adams fall....

    dark rays do not flow out from the sun,but are the result of the suns absence..Gods absence of His divine grace upon adam caused the evil nature in adam from which all evil flows out from...
    Bevan,

    You can use whatever speech you wish (dark rays flowing from the sun) but you will never be able to box God into what you think He can or cannot do. You sir like myself are the ones to whom the Law was given to show us our sinfulness. God is not bound by His law, because there is no one to whom He answers to. He can do what ever He wants and He will never be guilty of sin, only we are. God does what He pleases whenever He wishes whether you agree with it or not. God answers to no one, and there is no standard that He is held to. I believe that if you reread the old testament that you will (maybe not) see that God does as He wishes with whom and whenever He wants.
  6. bevan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by trav
    Bevan,

    You can use whatever speech you wish (dark rays flowing from the sun) but you will never be able to box God into what you think He can or cannot do. You sir like myself are the ones to whom the Law was given to show us our sinfulness. God is not bound by His law, because there is no one to whom He answers to. He can do what ever He wants and He will never be guilty of sin, only we are. God does what He pleases whenever He wishes whether you agree with it or not. God answers to no one, and there is no standard that He is held to. I believe that if you reread the old testament that you will (maybe not) see that God does as He wishes with whom and whenever He wants.
    trav i agree with evrything u say,that is that God is not bound by His law,and that He answers to no one..the illustration of the sun i borrowed from johnathan edwards...please i am not trying to argue for the mere sake of arguing,rather im trying to seek a greater understanding of Gods word in regards to how adam came to sin..correct me if i am wrong is it your belief that God directly created adam with a sinful nature?
  7. bevan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas
    Hello Beven,

    I will forever disagree with you!

    You say you take from Augustine only his definition of evil nothing else. Phooey on you!! You should be better prepared to tell some of us that on this forum.

    We are not ignorant of Augustine's misguided soteriology pertaining to the nature of man's (Adam) suppossed free will in relation to a partially sovereign God. Of course there is no such thing as a partially sovereign God. But many a reformed teach it!

    I could debate this forever. But not in this blog.
    nicholas you said that you would forever disagree with me,are you referring to my belief that God indirectly caused adam to sin by changing his nature by way of witholding His grace from adam?

    Is it your belief that God directly created adam with a sinful nature? im just trying to grow in a deeper understanding of Gods word relating to this issue..
    Updated 06-17-2011 at 01:17 PM by Brandan Kraft (Fixed quoting....)
  8. trav's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by bevan
    trav i agree with evrything u say,that is that God is not bound by His law,and that He answers to no one..the illustration of the sun i borrowed from johnathan edwards...please i am not trying to argue for the mere sake of arguing,rather im trying to seek a greater understanding of Gods word in regards to how adam came to sin..correct me if i am wrong is it your belief that God directly created adam with a sinful nature?
    Bevin, I know you are not trying to argue, and I apologize if I came off as harsh. In regards to your question, yes I do believe that God created Adam with a sinful nature.
  9. Saint Nicholas's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by bevan
    nicholas you said that you would forever disagree with me,are you referring to my belief that God indirectly caused adam to sin by changing his nature by way of witholding His grace from adam?..
    Short answer: Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by bevan
    Is it your belief that God directly created adam with a sinful nature? im just trying to grow in a deeper understanding of Gods word relating to this issue..
    Short Answer: Yes

    Bevan, The threads are used for more in depth theological discussion. I request again that you start a thread.

    Ask yourself this one question. Was Adam and Eve created to be naked all their days? Or were they to be clothed with Righteousnss from the very beginning, even from eternity?

    I Think this was discussed in some previous threads. Search it out.

    Nicholas
  10. bevan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas
    Short answer: Yes



    Short Answer: Yes

    Bevan, The threads are used for more in depth theological discussion. I request again that you start a thread.

    Ask yourself this one question. Was Adam and Eve created to be naked all their days? Or were they to be clothed with Righteousnss from the very beginning, even from eternity?

    I Think this was discussed in some previous threads. Search it out.

    sorry nicholas,im sorta new to all this,still learning diffrence between blogs,threads forums etc..i should have did that prior to posting..



    Nicholas
  11. bevan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by trav
    Bevin, I know you are not trying to argue, and I apologize if I came off as harsh. In regards to your question, yes I do believe that God created Adam with a sinful nature.
    no worries trav,all good...just trying to get my head around this topic thats all..Thanks for your answer..Lord willing will start a thread later as nicholas has suggested...
  12. Robert R. Higby's Avatar
    God created Adam (mankind--including his descendants) with a proclivity to rebel. This is the only explanation of why he rebelled in an actual act of sin against a commandment that God had given. Perfect trees do not bear evil fruit.

    He (Gus) further went on to define evil as the absense of goodness . . .

    Yes. Such an argument does not exist in biblical revelation at all, in fact, at the end of His creative activity God proclaims all things (including mankind) to be created 'very good' ! So Adam was created both good and bad, not a problem if the totality of biblical revelation is discerned. The shadow creation is imperfect by design (though 'very good' as orchestrated in God's purposes) to give way to the first, final, ultimate, and ontologically perfect creation to come purchased by the rightness of Jesus Christ in His person and work.
  13. Saint Nicholas's Avatar
    Hello Bevan,

    A thread was started for all of us to discuss this issue. Please feel free to participate.

    Nicholas

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