Were Ananias and Sapphira Regenerate?

[Brandan Kraft]

This one is a toughie folks! What is your opinion?

[countrymouse]

I think they may have been, but that they reaped an earthly, temporal consequence for their deception. Couldn't say for sure, though.

One of the reasons I think it's possible is that we read in the OT of Israelites being struck dead for touching the ark of the covenant, but the Philistines were able to capture the ark and take it home with them. It's a serious thing to be in covenant with God.

[disciple]

how about simon magus (cf. Acts 8)? same deal. we don't have inside info on whether or not they were actually regenerate but we know from Scripture that there are false brethren with a false faith that does not save. simon went so far as to believe, be baptized, and continue. after this incident (acts 8:20-24) we never hear from him again and he is referred to by the early church fathers as the father of all heretics (heresies).

[Alan Stevens]

Hi

I think only God knows the answer to the question.

I think it was Spurgeon who said ( and i paraphase) " Heaven will be full of those whom we never thought would get there and will be missing many whom we thought should be there." (If it was not Spurgeon, it is me).

The heart of man is secret, only God knows our inclinations and His elect. We can look for evidence and 'fruits' but we don't really know what goes on inside the heart.

I like to think on the positive side and hope for the best, perhaps that gives you all a clue !

Cheers

[Brandan Kraft]

Wow, three excellent answers....

Was reading a bit more on this subject and came across this particular passage...

1 Cor 11:28-30, (NAS)
28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

What is Paul saying here in vs. 30? It seems to me that Paul is referring to believers acting in sunful and rebellious ways whom the Lord has inflicted with sickness and premature death - because of their behavior.

Paul also talks about handing people over to satan for the destruction of their flesh so that their Spirit may be saved.

1 Cor 5:5, (NAS), I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is interesting! It is quite possible that both Ananias, Saphira, and Simon were destroyed so that they MIGHT be saved.

[Alan Stevens]

Hi

I think that hits the 'nail on the head'.

That would sum up my position, (although some of my more Arminan friends would strongly disagree).

1 Cor 5v5, i think changed my thinking when i came across it. Although it's not in the same context as A&S, i think the principle is still the same.

I know some people though will not feel comfortable with that answer, but i think its the nearest one is going to come.

Cheers

[Brandan Kraft]

1Cor 5:5 has been bothering me all day today....

If Paul could hand "believers" over to satan, what does that mean?

[Alan Stevens]

Hi

I may be wrong, but the way i've looked at 'handing over to satan' in 1 cor 5. Is that Paul is saying in effect. "Let him go back into the world which is satan's kingdom, and let him leave the Church. In the hope that this leaving will keep the Church pure and he will understand the seriousness of his actions."


1 Cor 5:1-13, (NKJV)
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles; that a man has his father's wife!
2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged, as though I were present, concerning him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves that wicked person."

I think verse 6, where it talks about a little leaven leavens the whole lump, is the phrase where it is seen in the light of leaving rather than a physical handing over to satan.

Now i may be wrong, but that is what 'sits' best with me.

Cheers

[Brandan Kraft]

Yes, your explanation "sits" with me a lot better as well Alan. But on first examination of thise passage, my initial inclination was that Paul was handing this believer over to Satan PERSONALLY. This is a much better explanation, and actually FITS the context much better. Thank you.

[Brandan Kraft]

Acts 5:3, (KJV), But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Reading on this today, something struck me... How is is that Satan could fill the heart of a believer to lie to God? This one verse leads me to think that Ananias and Sapphira were tares.

It's quite possible that Peter being concerned for the purity and unity of the early church was called by God to weed out the false believers in this manner. My first inclination is to believe these people were not believers.

[Alan Stevens]

Hi

I've been thinking about that phrase in verse 3 'Satan Filled your heart to lie'

Here is the whole passage first (just to remind ourselves).

Acts 5:1-42, (NKJV)
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession.
2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?
4 "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things.
6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
8 And Peter answered her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?" And she said, "Yes, for so much."
9 Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."
10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband.
11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.
12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.
13 Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly.
14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,

These things now come to mind:

1. Satan cannot literally fill someones heart - He is a created being and his presense is limited.

2. The sin which A & S were accused of was lieing to the holy Spirit. (Vese 3). Also testing God. (verse 9)

3. 'Why have you conceived this thing in your heart?' was the charge brought against them. So, they must have planned and worked out a way to keep some of the proceeds first, so there was a planning to lie to the Church.

4. That lieing to the Church is equated to lieing to the Holy Spirit.

5. It would seem that greed and selfishness was the motive for the action.

6. There was no truth in anything they said or did.


One of the distinctions of being regenreate is that although sin still exists, we are not dominated by it. The spirit living inside us, has changed our life so that we cannot get away from our consicence. We are not the same as the world, we have been regenerated.

So, in light of the above, and after careful considersation. I have changed my mind (beware, i might change it back),but i now think that A & S were not regenrated. There was NO honesty in what they did, and they conspired together to deceive the Church out of greed and selfishness.

So there it is

Cheers

[Brandan Kraft]

That is what I am beginning to think as well, Alan. Good analysis.

[countrymouse]

hmmm...

Alan and Kermie, you may be right, but...

I was just now reading disciple's earlier post about Simon Majus. Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead for their sin, but Simon lived on to become one of the first century's most notorious false prophets. Ananias and his wife lied to the Holy Spirit; Simon tried to buy His power with money. Ananias and Sapphira seemed to be motivated by an insufficiency of faith in God to see to their material needs. Simon coveted the apostles' power; he still wanted to be a great magician.

For me, "the jury's still out" on this question.

-cm

[Odyssey]

Concerning 1Cor. 5.5, the 1599 Geneva Bible Footnotes state:

'5:5 {5} To {c} deliver such an one unto Satan for the {6} destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

(5) The one who is excommunicated is delivered to the power of Satan, in that he is cast out of the house of God. (c) What it is to be delivered to Satan the Lord himself declares when he says, "Let him be unto thee as a heathen and publican"; #Mt 18:17. That is to say, to be disfranchised and put out of the right and privileges of the city of Christ, which is the Church, outside of which Satan is lord and master.

'(6) The goal of excommunication is not to cast away the excommunicate that he should utterly perish, but that he may be saved, that is, that by this means his flesh may be tamed, that he may learn to live to the Spirit.'

Grace to you,

jak

[paulschafer]

Originally posted by Dr. Gill
This one is a toughie folks! What is your opinion?

I think their fruit tells their heart. If Luke would provide us more detail on this account we probably wouldnt be assuming it. Other than Acts 4 and 5, the accounts there tells us the rich christian folk were supposed to help the poor folk so that nobody has a need or want. Apparently, Annie and Sappy were putting their property for sale but renigged on it and then lied to the Apostles and thus incurring divine wrath instantaneouslly. So much for hospitality. Annie and Sappy must had some bad attitude to do what they did.

[wildboar]

Given the circumstances, it seems that they were unregenerate. I don't believe that God allows His children to live unrepentant up until the day they die.

They're also among the few in the Bible who were slain in the Spirit Look out Benny Hinn!

Sola Gratia,
WildBoar

[paulschafer]

Originally posted by wildboar
Given the circumstances, it seems that they were unregenerate. I don't believe that God allows His children to live unrepentant up until the day they die.

They're also among the few in the Bible who were slain in the Spirit Look out Benny Hinn!

Sola Gratia,
WildBoar

Brother Wildboar, what is your first name?

Without picking on charismatics, there is a few proof texts in both OT and NT, that people fell down by God's glory. Even Jesus spoke and Judas and the romans fell to the ground.

[Robert R. Higby]

The temporal judgment of Ananias and Sapphira occurred at a unique juncture in the history of the ekklesia--specifically when it was new and emerging. At this point, the apostles taught economic socialism (contrast this with Paul in 2 Cor. 8 and 9). I personally do not believe that we can conclude anything (pro or con) about the salvation of A / S from what is said about their temporal fate. Neither can we conclude that Uzzah is in hell because he touched the Ark (in apparent respect) in an attempt to stop its fall. These are all temporal, not eternal, judgments of God. The death of Eli is another OT example of temporal, not eternal judgment. There are no doubt others (Moses, etc.).

God judged Ananias and Sapphira temporally--to put fear in the hearts of those who claimed to believe--but needed to examine themselves to see whether they were truly in the faith.

Dr. Gill states re: 1 Cor. 1:30:

What is Paul saying here in vs. 30? It seems to me that Paul is referring to believers acting in sunful and rebellious ways whom the Lord has inflicted with sickness and premature death - because of their behavior.

The context starting in vs. 17 & running through the end of the chapter is corporate, not primarily individual. God judges the whole body temporally as a result of the sins of some. In our perspective, we would like to see only those who are unconverted stricken with cancer and killed. But God's ways are not man's ways. He has rarely worked this way. When a local body fails to honor the gospel, no one who remains allied to that body (even if regenerate) is safe from the Lord's temporal judgment. We know it. Often the person who gets sick or dies in tragedy is not the abuser, but the seemingly innocent. This accomplishes the Lord's purpose of hardening the unrepentant congregation in its sin, because the spared unregenerate members proclaim: "We must be living right!" I have seen this happen so often it is redundant. The lesson: if a professed local congregation will not repent of false worship and compromise away from the gospel, separate from it! There is no other option for those who love Christ.

[wildboar]

paul:

Brother Wildboar, what is your first name?

My name is Charles.

Without picking on charismatics, there is a few proof texts in both OT and NT, that people fell down by God's glory. Even Jesus spoke and Judas and the romans fell to the ground.

It never seemed to have been done for a positive reason though. None of the people mentioned received healing from this falling on the ground.

Sola Gratia,
WildBoar

[In Hymn]

While the Scriptures don't expound on Simon M....the Apocraphal Books do. They speak of his life as being a constant thorn in the side of the Church. He was a detriment to the Gospel where ever he went.

We just studied this passage in Acts last Sunday and one of the first things a "well respected" learned man of our class said was that he thought Simon M was saved...just backsliden. I did not correct him in class..but afterward, I did point out the other historical writings about Simon M.

The danger is that Southern Baptists was still making back sliding an art form. They refuse to look at a dead tree with no fruit and say....lost...just because that dead tree is sitting in the middle of the front row at church every Sunday morning.

I can not speak about A and S in other historical writings. But we need to remember that God will not be mocked. We should not be looking for excuses for those who have no fruit.