Romans 7 Man - Christian or Non-Christian?

[Brandan Kraft]

Before Augustine, Christians believed the man in Romans 7:13-25 was a non-Christian. Today, most people believe the R7 man is a regenerate believer describing his struggle...

What are your thoughts?

Rom 7:13-25, (NAS)
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

[Alan Stevens]

Hi

I'll put my neck on the chopping block.


18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

Sounds like me !




24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


Sound to me like the hope i have!


I never knew this passage was so difficult, until i start reading some theologians.

I have always thought it described the turmoil inside myself as a christian.

A pagan or non-christian is dead to the things of God, therefore he would not be bothered at all by pleasing God and living a holy life.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers

[Brandan Kraft]

Yeah, I know what you mean Alan! This man described in Romans 7 seemingly describes me. Most of my life (christian) I've always assumed Paul was referring to a Christian, but now I'm leaning more toward this man NOT being a Christian. I'm torn between the two views, and now it's a mystery. And what's even more confusing is the view Martin Lloyd-Jones has taken! He proposes that this man is neither regenerate or unregenerate. I don't even know HOW he came to that conclusion, and that thought is mind-boggling to me.

There are two main verses that I think we need to deal with....

If we are to believe this person is a Christian, how do we deal with this verse?

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.


If we believe this person is a non-Christian, how do we deal with this verse?

22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

[countrymouse]

Could Paul have been describing life under the law of Moses, apart from the power the Holy Spirit gives us for obedience? I wonder whether most of us really understand what that was like. (If we did, maybe there would be far fewer people who seem to wish to return to it!)

What I've been able to find out about Jewish society in that period indicates that it was incredibly corrupt. Look at what we know about the Pharisees, who tried to be most meticulous about law-keeping, and yet their righteousness was not enough. They couldn't manage the weightier matters of justice and mercy.

And think about Paul, when he was Saul - a diligent student of the Law, a Pharisee, zealous for God - cluelessly helping to murder the Messiah's followers, believing he was doing right.

-cm

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by countrymouse
Could Paul have been describing life under the law of Moses, apart from the power the Holy Spirit gives us for obedience? I wonder whether most of us really understand what that was like. (If we did, maybe there would be far fewer people who seem to wish to return to it!)

What I've been able to find out about Jewish society in that period indicates that it was incredibly corrupt. Look at what we know about the Pharisees, who tried to be most meticulous about law-keeping, and yet their righteousness was not enough. They couldn't manage the weightier matters of justice and mercy.

And think about Paul, when he was Saul - a diligent student of the Law, a Pharisee, zealous for God - cluelessly helping to murder the Messiah's followers, believing he was doing right.

-cm

CM, that is what I am beginning to think Paul is referring to, myself. It is true that the unregenerate jew DID "joyfully concur" with the law of God with his mind. Yes, it is true that one can delight in God's law in a non-spiritual way. But they found themselves powerless to maintain it, and thus in vs. 14, they were indeed "sold into bondage to sin."

Isa 58:2, (NIV), For day after day they seek me out; they seem eager to know my ways, as if they were a nation that does what is right and has not forsaken the commands of its God. They ask me for just decisions and seem eager for God to come near them.

Who is being written about here in Isaiah 58:2? This cannot be referring to regenerate people. This is about unregenerate Jews who seeks to know God's ways... Yes, men can seek God, but in a NON-spiritual way.

Also, as you pointed out, Paul delighted in God's law before He was met by Jesus on the Damascus road.

[Brandan Kraft]

Also take a look at Romans 8....

Rom 8:1-4, (NAS)
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


If we read Romans 7 as referring to the unregenerate man without hope struggling against sin, indeed, his MASTER which holds him in bondage... we see the solution in chapter 8! Chapter 8 makes more sense to me now, as it seems as Paul is saying, YES, under the bondage of sin there was no hope... indeed, I could do nothing but sin... I knew the law of God and wanted to obey it (in a non-spiritual way), but found I couldn't. But now... LOOOK!!! Christ! There is NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus... What the law could not do, Jesus can! He can set you free so that you no longer have to walk after the flesh, but according to the Spirit. It is indeed possible to live a life holy and pleasing to God through Christ Jesus.

[countrymouse]

Yes, men can seek God, but in a NON-spiritual way.

I think you're right; perhaps another thread? This has me thinking about the "seeking God" issue that has been hashed and rehashed. I'd like to talk about it more!

-cm

[countrymouse]

Originally posted by kermie
Also take a look at Romans 8....

Rom 8:1-4, (NAS)
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


If we read Romans 7 as referring to the unregenerate man without hope struggling against sin, indeed, his MASTER which holds him in bondage... we see the solution in chapter 8! Chapter 8 makes more sense to me now, as it seems as Paul is saying, YES, under the bondage of sin there was no hope... indeed, I could do nothing but sin... I knew the law of God and wanted to obey it (in a non-spiritual way), but found I couldn't. But now... LOOOK!!! Christ! There is NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus... What the law could not do, Jesus can! He can set you free so that you no longer have to walk after the flesh, but according to the Spirit. It is indeed possible to live a life holy and pleasing to God through Christ Jesus.

Definitely!

[disciple]

one question about ro 7 though. why does paul use the present tense indicative (which means he is talking about the here and now of his writing and the indicative means that it's a simple statement of fact)? there seems to be no shift in thought or indication that he's talking about some prior time in his life in the text.

but I am (present tense indicative) of flesh (I am flesh, I am fleshly, or metaphorically I am earthly or I am carnal are better translations; this perhaps refers to what he is in his flesh; the struggle we Christians have is with our bodies or flesh or natural desires), sold into bondage (one word meaning sold as a slave or into slavery in the perfect passive used metaphorically to describe how sin operates in his life, see verses above vv. 8-11; perfect tense describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated and passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action) to sin.

seems pretty clear that he's talking about his current situation and not some prior time in his life. paul speaks of this elsewhere as well:

1 Co 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

[countrymouse]

Disciple, I don't think Paul's use of present tense in that passage means that he was speaking of his current state of being in Romans 7. Present tense in the NT just doesn't always dictate how we should understand what's being said. It appears that at times it was a literary device of some kind used for emphasis.

Either way, grammar is not the only clue we use to help us understand what's being said.

-cm

[disciple]

furthermore, the following verses seem to clinch the whole thing (verbs still all in the present indicative):

Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

the discussion or struggle is clearly about what he wants in his mind and what he wants in his flesh. the two are at war with one another and this is all over in Scripture. he is speaking of the longing to be freed from the bondage of the flesh. he speaks of this again in romans 8:

Ro 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body (we are to mortify or kill the deeds of our body), you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

[disciple]

Originally posted by countrymouse
Disciple, I don't think Paul's use of present tense in that passage means that he was speaking of his current state of being in Romans 7. Present tense in the NT just doesn't always dictate how we should understand what's being said. It appears that at times it was a literary device of some kind used for emphasis.

Either way, grammar is not the only clue we use to help us understand what's being said.

-cm

are there other examples in Scripture (or otherwise) of this literary device that he is using here? the whole tenor and thrust of the entire passage on through chapter 8 is that he's speaking of the present situation. the context and grammar support this. the only reason people take it as a literary device is because theologically they cannot make it fit. there really is no other evidence that i know of.

[Brandan Kraft]

Doug, I see your point perfectly, and I thought about this as well...

However, I don't think it's a good idea to divide Romans 7 up into two sections simply because the tense has changed.. up to verse 13, the tense is past.. and in verse 14-25, the tense is present...

Yet, I believe there is a VERY tight link between vs. 13 and 14 because of the word "for" in vs. 14 and indeed used to connect all of his thoughts.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

I don't think Paul switched to the Present tense here to show his current experience...

Also another thing that stands out to me is verse 23...

23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

This in my opinion shows defeat! It shows failure. This is not a life of a Christian. We are not prisoners to the law of sin any longer...

I am beginning to think more and more that Paul is simply expounding on verse 13...

Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

I do not understand the change of tenses though... That mystifies me.... But vs. 14 does seem to be a continuation of the thought process in vs. 13.

[disciple]

here is what john gill has to say:

but I am carnal, sold under sin:
from hence to the end of the chapter many are of opinion, that the apostle speaks in the person of an unregenerate man, or of himself as unregenerate; but nothing is more clear, than that he speaks all along of himself in the first person, "I am carnal":… (autov egw) , "I myself", as in (Romans 7:25) , and in the present tense of what he then was and found; whereas, when he speaks of his unregenerate state, and how it was with him under the first convictions of sin, he speaks of them as things past, (Romans 7:5-11) ; besides, several things which are said by the apostle can neither agree with him, nor any other, but as regenerate; such as to "hate evil", "delight in the law of God", and "serve it with the mind", (Romans 7:15,22,25) . Moreover, the distinctions between flesh and spirit, the inward and the outward man, and the struggle there is between them, are to be found in none but regenerate persons; and to say no more, the thanksgiving for deliverance from sin by Christ can only come from such; nor are any of the things said inapplicable to men that are born again, as will appear by the consideration of them as they follow: for when the apostle says, "I am carnal"; his meaning is, either that he was so by nature, and as he saw himself when sin through the law became exceeding sinful to him; or as he might be denominated from the flesh or corruption of nature which was still in him, and from the infirmities of the flesh he was attended with; just as the Corinthians, though sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, are said to be "carnal" on account of their envying, strife, and divisions, (1 Corinthians 3:1-4) , or in comparison of the "spiritual" law of God, which was now before him, and in which he was beholding his face as in a glass, and with which when compared, the holiest man in the world must be reckoned carnal. He adds, "sold under sin"; he did not "sell himself" to work wickedness, as Ahab, (1 Kings 21:25) , and others; he was passive and not active in it; and when at any time he with his flesh served the law of sin, he was not a voluntary, but an involuntary servant; besides, this may be understood of his other I, his carnal I, his unrenewed self, the old man which is always under sin, when the spiritual I, the new man, is never under the law of sin, but under the governing influence of the grace of God.

[disciple]

Originally posted by countrymouse
Either way, grammar is not the only clue we use to help us understand what's being said.

so what else did you have in mind here? we have context and grammar that both seem to clearly support the reading that he's talking about his current struggle between the flesh and the mind (something which unregenerate do not have). in addition, there are a plethora of other Scriptures that speak to this same topic (i.e., the struggle between the flesh and mind).

[Odyssey]

I think that the answer lies within the change of covenant. The reason Paul uses present tense verbs is because he was torn between the OC and the NC. The only answer to his problem was Christ Jesus.

If we look at the first part of the chapter, we see that Paul was talking to Christians who, like himself, were once (and to some degree still) under the OC system:

Rom. 7.1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

We see from this that what he is addressing has to do with those under the law and are familiar with it. He is not referring to the unregenerate individuals.

Then in verses 2-3, Paul talks about how a woman can't legally be married to another until her first husband dies. Once a death has occurred, the law is no longer binding (how can it be?).

Next, he shows that the Jewish Christians have been set free from the law in a spiritual sense. That is, because they are have become Christains, they have 'died' to the old master, the Old Husband, i.e., the Law. Now, they can be married to another husband, i.e., god himself through Christ.

But here comes the problem. In the natural world in which they lived, the first husband, i.e., the OC system, was still 'alive'. Therefore, they had to continue to 'obey' him. When the old husband died, they would then be free to 'obey' the new husband. However, during the interum, they were pulled between the love of both. Look at vv. 22-25.

For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. {23}But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. {24}O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? {25}I thank God——through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here we see Paul's point--and the freedom from his anguish. He will 'serve the law of God', i.e., he will follow Christ and the 'law of sin', i.e., the OC system. Not until that system was removed could the Jewish people stop from obeying the OC law.

To push this further, I think that the majority of the time, when Paul was referring to 'flesh' he meant the OC system. Look here at Philippians 3:

Phil. 3.3-7. For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, {4}though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: {5}circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; {6}concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. {7}But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.

Here Paul unmistakingly tied 'the flesh' with the OC and it's practices. (The practical application of this for today would be any 'Christain' system that relies on ones works rather than on god's grace through faith alone.) Therefore, I think that Paul's point in Romans 7 was that those people of Jewish heritage had a great struggle on their hands. On one side, they were bound to follow the OC system until god removed it; but on the other, they knew that they had to follow Christ to be found worthy by him (the whole book of Hebrews!).

That's my two cents worth, anyway.

Grace to you,

jak

[disciple]

thanks for the two cents OD! that's an interesting take i've never heard. i'll have to think about that one some more. it seems to have some merit at first glance.

[Brandan Kraft]

all I can say is "wow".

[Odyssey]

I think this idea is consitant throughout the letter to the Romans. Paul was always dealing with Judiazers (also note that to Paul, there was no such things as 'Messianic Judaism'. You were either a Christain or a Jew--See Galatians). The Gentiles did not have this struggle. That is why he fought so fervently against them going into Judaism. Judaism pointed to faith in Christ. Once faith came, there was no longer any need for the path (Gal. again). We see in the Roman letter, that Paul was dealing with a mixture of the same thing. Then, in this chapter, he made it personal. He talked about his own struggles. We see that before the OC system, he was 'alive' but then, when it came, he 'died'. That is, before the covenant of law he was in the covenant of 'self' if you will. But, once god showed him that covenant, he 'died' to his covenant of self. Likewise, once god showed him the NC, he had to die to the OC. But, the struggle was more intense now. The OC was still standing. He still had to travel to Jerusalem on Feast days. He still had to make vows to god through that old system. However, he yearned to be free from that. He knew that that was god's plan. The Gentiles already had it. They did not need to 'go backwards'. The rest of the church, i.e., the Jewish Christians, needed to move forward with Christ and the Gentiles.

Anyway, forgive my ramblings.

Grace to you all,

jak

[countrymouse]

Forgive your ramblings? What's to forgive? I think you may be right, for the most part.

You addressed something that I've had a question about in the back of my mind (where it's really crowded, lol) for a long time.

You said:

We see that before the OC system, he was 'alive' but then, when it came, he 'died'. That is, before the covenant of law he was in the covenant of 'self' if you will. But, once god showed him that covenant, he 'died' to his covenant of self.

Not sure I entirely agree, but interesting. Paul, as a Jew, was born under the Law, circumcised on the 8th day, etc. So I have trouble seeing Paul talking about himself individually here. What I think Paul may be doing, however, is speaking of Israel's plight under the Law, and the way out of it. But I need to go and do some more thinking about that.

=======

disciple, I'll get back to the question of present tense as soon as possible. This cold is making me sleepy- sorry! And I may be out in left field about that anyway. It's just something that I think I have noticed.

later!
cm