saints or sinners

[countrymouse]

What say ye? Are we who are in Christ of a dual nature? There's no denying that each of us still commits sins, but I often hear Christians wallow in self-pity over their helpless sinfulness, calling themselves sinners, as if that is the essence of what they are. Let me ask you something: Is even one of the NT epistles addressed to the "sinners who are at ____?" Consider, please, the following article:

http://www.planetpreterist.com/modul...rticle&sid=847

(It isn't an eschatology article.)

Want to talk about it?

-cm

[Brandan Kraft]

Christians sin, but they are not "sinners", meaning that their lives are no longer identified by their sin.

There are only two classifications of people..
1. Sinners
2. Saints

As saints we are to "consider [our]selves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." (Rom 6:11)

[disciple]

I agree that each person is either in Adam or in Christ (1 co 15:22), either in the kingdom of His Beloved Son or in the kingdom of darkness (Col 1:13), children of God or children of the devil (1 John 3:10), etc. there is definitely no middle ground. but let's discuss 1 Co 3:1ff [and perhaps Ro 7...but i already know that none of us can agree whether this is a believer or unbeliever ]:

1 Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

what are men of flesh (or carnal men) which is contrasted with spiritual men?

[Odyssey]

I believe that 'carnal' people are still motivated by their 'old man'. That is, they have not yet 'renewed their minds' to the mind of Christ. They are still into their old lifestyles. If we look at the passage we see that they are motivated by self instead of selflessness. There is still 'envy, strife, and divisions' among them--similar to what we see in Galatians 2. Those people were still driven by those desires instead of being led by Christ. Peter, in Galatians 2, had a 'set back' if you will.

I think this is still relevant today. We see this in a lot of people (myself included). While we may desire for more of the things of god, we are still (sometimes) led by our own way of thinking instead of submitting to our master, our great god and saviour Jesus Christ.

Grace to you,

jak

[countrymouse]

1 Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

Was Paul actually calling them "men of flesh" or was he comparing the Corinthians to carnal people? He said that he had to speak to them "as to men of flesh" or "as to infants in Christ," who could only drink milk, that is to say, only grasp the most basic fundamentals. Paul appears to be speaking metaphorically rather than saying they were actually carnal in nature, or literally babies.

We all still commit sins, and that includes me. But we are no longer by nature carnal; we have been made spiritual. I find that it's easier to resist temptation when I remember that, remember Whose I am.

-cm

[Odyssey]

But, cm, he also wrote that he could not speak to them 'as spiritual'. This does not mean that they were not spiritual for he also stated that they were 'in Christ'. In my opinion, one can't be 'in Christ' and not be spiritual. That is the whole point of being in Christ.

However, I agree that they were not 'carnal', i.e., they were not unregenerate people, for that is the true meaning of carnal. But that they were still acting that way. They were still being motivated by their selfishness.

Grace to you,

jak

[disciple]

i was just thinking about something. whenever Scripture discusses those who will not get into the kingdom, it doesn't list the vices that prohibit one from the kingdom but the type of people who will be prohibited. so saints can and do sometimes act like sinners but this is not the pattern of their life. we sin but we do not practice such things:

1 Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you (the same people in 1 Co 3); but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice [habitually/continually designated by context with present tense] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

as the Scripture says, it is (not should be but is) obvious:

1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins [habitually/continually desginated by context and present tense; cf. 1 John 1:7ff]; no one who sins has seen (perfect tense - past event with present results) Him or knows (prefect tense) Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness [habitually/continually] is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin [habitually/continually] is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin [habitually/continually], because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin [habitually/continually], because he is born (perfect passive) of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness [habitually/continually] is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.