Clapping

[Brandan Kraft]

What do you think about clapping?

When you hear a musical performance, do you think it's right to clap?

What about in a church setting? Is it ok to clap?

Is it glorifying man rather than God?

What are your thoughts regarding this topic?

[jpd]

A good choir can give glory to God with their music. The people at church services are encouraged to join in with the music because this is a form of worship. When we clap, we reduce this to just a form of entertainment and respond accordingly.

[Brandan Kraft]

Well for starters, I don't think there is biblical support for judging brothers who clap or don't clap. It's not the action that is in view here, but the motive behind it....

I used to clap at everything, but I don't any more. I used to clap in church. I don't anymore.

My reasoning behind it is for starters, I don't like the idea of heaping praise upon men when it should be given to God. When I'm at a "company luncheon" and some employee is given an award for great service, I don't clap. Call me a stick in the mud I suppose, but for me, it just doesn't seem right.

As for clapping in worship, I suppose it's ok for people to praise God in this manner. I see nothing in Scripture that forbids it. Yet, to me it doesn't seem right... I don't know quite how to finger it... hmmmm...

Heb 12:28, (NIV), Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,

Can we worship God in reverence and awe if we're clapping?

Ps 47:1, (NIV), For the director of music. Of the Sons of Korah. A psalm. Clap your hands, all you nations; shout to God with cries of joy.

This verse seems to state that it's an acceptable practice...

Still, I just don't know....

Here are some more thoughts:

As new covenant believers, we have many liberties. I have met people that believe they can worship God by just staying home on Sunday and turning on the TV. Does liberty mean we can do things just anyway we want? Am I being a pharisee by challenging them?

[disciple]

Originally posted by kermie
What do you think about clapping?

When you hear a musical performance, do you think it's right to clap?

What about in a church setting? Is it ok to clap?

Is it glorifying man rather than God?

What are your thoughts regarding this topic?

personally i don't clap because of my conscience. however some things to think about as far as applauding a musical performance in church is that we gather not only to worship God but to encourage one another. i wouldn't say it is wrong to clap for the performer but it is a matter of conscience. if you feel that in clapping for the individual that you may be giving them praise that is due only to God, then by all means don't clap. if however, you are clapping to praise God and/or to encourage your brother or sister, then have at it. i think it is another one of those matters wherein we are to come together for mutual edification, seeking the benefit/blessing for others and not ourselves, and not judging one another in what they have become of convinced of (Ro 12:5 et al). 1 Corinthians (esp. 12-14) and Romans (12-15) are great resources for our code of conduct when we gather:

Ro 12:10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor...16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.

Ro 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions...4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind...13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way...19 So then let us pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.

Ro 15:1 Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. 2 Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification...7 Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.

1 Co 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good...18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now there are many members, but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23 and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24 whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.

1 Co 14:12 ...seek to abound for the edification of the church...17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified...26...Let all things be done for edification.

[Odyssey]

Well, since some seem to think that clapping is not respectful (though, the OT is full of it in worship), what about saying 'Amen'?

disciple stated it correctly when he wrote that we are to be guided by our conscience. It's just that darn simple.

Grace to you,

jak

[disciple]

Originally posted by Odyssey
...we are to be guided by our conscience. It's just that darn simple.

but with this we must always be mindful not to bind others with our conscience. i think this is where many Christians get messed up in this. they see what God is doing in their life and what they have become convinced of as equal with Scriptures and normative for all other believers as well. i think many have lost the ability to identify and distinguish between black/white/gray.

Ro 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions...4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind...13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way...19 So then let us pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.

the twin truths of being convinced in your own mind and not judging others with different convictions are to be maintained. it is a narrow road, but one which God calls us to. if the goal is seeking the good of our brothers and sisters (instead of ourselves) then this would be a lot easier. i think the main problems are pride (i.e., i'm right they're wrong) and selfishness (i.e., i want my convictions followed).

[Brandan Kraft]

Jack and Doug,

You're both CORRECT about this being an issue regarding individual consciences. Now let's move this from an individual area to an ecclesiological area.... Let's move it to corporate worship...

When it comes to frequent "amens", "hallelujahs", and other things when a person is speaking, I would say that is wrong because it is not orderly. The same goes for people babbling away in "tongues" in the corner. These two practices are almost equally wrong in my view, and the offenders should be confronted.

Is clapping in a New Testament meeting to be considered a disorderly practice?

[disciple]

Originally posted by kermie
Is clapping in a New Testament meeting to be considered a disorderly practice?

not if it is done decently and in order...in other words, it may have its place as long as it's not distracting to others, out of place, and done out of selfishness.

[GreekPrincess]

Originally posted by jpd
A good choir can give glory to God with their music. The people at church services are encouraged to join in with the music because this is a form of worship. When we clap, we reduce this to just a form of entertainment and respond accordingly.

I agree with jpd.

Originally posted by disciple

not if it is done decently and in order...in other words, it may have its place as long as it's not distracting to others, out of place, and done out of selfishness.

How does one clap in order without distracting someone? Doesn't your mind go to "Oh I have to clap so I am not the only one not clapping". Or other things besides what you are there for?

We have so many things that can detract our attention from worship. Why should we add something else like clapping, babbling, chicken dancing (lol)? I'm not saying you cannot enjoy yourself while worshiping our Lord. But, if you are moved to tears through worship, and the person next to you is clapping, it can get annoying pretty quickly.

Disclaimer.. All my statements are opinion. lol

[disciple]

Originally posted by GreekPrincess
How does one clap in order without distracting someone? Doesn't your mind go to "Oh I have to clap so I am not the only one not clapping". Or other things besides what you are there for?

that's why i said "it may have its place as long as it's not distracting to others, out of place, and done out of selfishness." so if it is distracting (or will distract) others, then don't do it. and to answer your question (perhaps rhetorical) "Doesn't your mind go to 'Oh I have to clap so I am not the only one not clapping'". most people in my church clap after a performance but i don't (although i have...it depends on the environment, etc.). and i don't feel like i have to clap in order to not look out of place or something.

as a few examples: if the song is a reflective/emotional song or something, it's probably best not to clap. if you're in the middle of the Lord's table and a song is played, it's probably best not to clap. i think the "mood" should be pretty clear. the most important thing is not ourselves, but others. if that perspective is kept, then i think things work more like they're supposed to as described in the NT (cf. Ro 12-15, 1 Co 12-14).

[Odyssey]

disciple,

I complete agree with your post.

GreekPrincess,

The same questions could be asked of your crying. That is, if you are moved to tears and I am not crying, do I start thinking, 'Man, I am not spiritual enough. This song didn't move me.' Or 'She is so spiritual. I wish I was more like her.' Or, 'She is too emotional. She needs to come down to earth.' Do you see what I am stating? Some could regard your tears as distracting.

Look at what we find in the OT. David stripped down to his underwear when the brought the ark of the covenant back into Israel and he danced before the Lord. That is pretty emotional. One of the words translated 'praise' means to be prostrate. It is the idea of complete submission before the Lord. Yet, in most churches today, you would be shunned (or removed) if you prostrated yourself on the floor during a worship song.

The key here is as disciple and Kermie stated. We have to be moved by our conscience and the environement were in. There are people who attend an 'integrated' church where the congregation (as well as the choir and pastor!) can get pretty emotional when the minister is preaching.

I, for one, lean more to the conscience on this issue. For one thing, I don't know where everyone is in the odyssey with god. Some people may feel it completely normal to clap, dance, sing, etc. before the Lord. Others may find this appauling. They would never do things like that. However, in both cases, I can't help but think that I have to be moved by my conscience. I will be held accountable for what I believe to be true--not what other believe to be true. I have to be true to my convictions. With that stated, however, if I am going to a church where such actions as those noted above are looked down upon, then, in respect for where they are, i.e., as a congregation, I would refrain.

I could go on and on here. This is one of those issues that has to be left up to the conscience. If the fellowship we attend believes that these forms of expression are perfectly normal then I don't think there is anything wrong with them. If we are attending a fellowship were these things are not accepted, then we should respect that as well. They are both right.

However, in my personal time, I will do whatever the Lords tell me do. It will be between him and me and it will be beautiful.

Grace to you,

jak

[disciple]

Originally posted by Odyssey
The same questions could be asked of your crying. That is, if you are moved to tears and I am not crying, do I start thinking, 'Man, I am not spiritual enough. This song didn't move me.' Or 'She is so spiritual. I wish I was more like her.' Or, 'She is too emotional. She needs to come down to earth.' Do you see what I am stating? Some could regard your tears as distracting.

great points OD! the example is quite illustrative of the situation and sounds a lot like Rom 14. notice the resulting envying or judging in the example. that is exactly what happens when we come together seeking our own interests rather than the interests of others. but when we seek the interest/benefit of others this does not happen. instead our greatest concern should be whether or not our brother or sister is being blessed (cf. 1 Co 14:12ff). i wish more fellowships emphasized this element of our gathering and would hammer on the concept of selflessness and other orientedness as our code of conduct.

Rom 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions...3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him...10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God...13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way...19 So then let us pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another...22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Rom 15:1 Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. 2 Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification...7 Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.

it amazes me when i read these verses to realize how much of the Christian life is to be lived in light of these principles. the more i fellowship with God's people, the more i realize how selfish i am (we are) and how necessary it is that we "do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves...not merely looking out for our own personal interests, but also for the interests of others." [cf. phil 2:3f] i honestly think that is the cure to almost all (if not all) of our relational/conduct issues in the assembly.

[Odyssey]

Yes and Amen!

[countrymouse]

In scrolling up through the posts (which was very interesting), I found this verse quoted by Kermie:

Ps 47:1, (NIV), For the director of music. Of the Sons of Korah. A psalm. Clap your hands, all you nations; shout to God with cries of joy.

You know, in reading the Old Testament, I find many examples of Israel's exhuberance in praising and thanking God for the wonderful things He did for them. (Didn't King David dance as he led the procession bringing the ark to Jerusalem? Can you hear the tambourines? It must have been a marvelous event to witness!) So I would not condemn those who show their appreciation for God's wonderful works in different ways. There are legitimate Christian congregations whose cultural background does not make clapping, shouting, or dancing as acts of worship a distraction for their members. But if someone worshiping in my church began doing so, it would definitely draw attention and be out of place. And I would not feel ok doing those things either, in the worship service, because it's not part of my cultural background or experience.

So, unless someone is showing off or doing something immoral or indecent, let each congregation worship vibrantly or quietly, according to what is acceptable and familiar to them.

-cm

[Skeuos Eleos]

Grebel wrote:
When it comes to frequent "amens", "hallelujahs", and other things when a person is speaking, I would say that is wrong because it is not orderly.

So, I wonder what you make of this extract from "Election and Holiness" by Spurgeon?:

Preaching a few months ago in the midst of a large congregation of Methodists, the brethren were all alive, giving all kinds of answers to my sermon, nodding their heads and crying, "Amen!" "Hallelujah!" "Glory be to God!" and the like. They completely woke me up. My spirit was stirred, and I preached away with an unusual force and vigour; and the more I preached the more they cried, "Amen!" "Hallelujah!" "Glory be to God!"

Also, as someone who has been in churches where you would feel out of place if you put your hands up and in others where you would feel out of place if you didn't! I don't think we can ignore that people's differing personalities also play a part. Some people are more extrovert than others. Put a group of extroverts together (as seems to happen in most charismatic churches?!?)and shouting "Amen" becomes more common. On the other hand, put a group of introverts together and the poor preacher goes home wondering whether he needs to liven his sermons up!

Just as we have had some good guidelines here for the extrovert about being orderly, considering others, etc, perhaps we need something on the other hand for the introvert? e.g. the motive for keeping quiet should not be "I'll be embarrassed" or "what will people think of me" and the like? I wonder how much of people keeping quiet comes from a desire not to have people look at them rather than a concern for orderly worship?

If we loved the Lord as we really should, could we / would we still keep quiet? and wouldn't any outward expression of that love then tend to His glory anyway?

Martin

[Brandan Kraft]

Lol martin, you made a good point, and actually I've come more around to your way of thinking within the last few months anyway! HA!

Seriously I don't have a problem with amens anymore

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by Martin Thorley
On the other hand, put a group of introverts together and the poor preacher goes home wondering whether he needs to liven his sermons up!

I would say any preacher who needs a lively crowd to feel good about what he preached is in the wrong business.

[Skeuos Eleos]

Originally posted by Grebel:
I would say any preacher who needs a lively crowd to feel good about what he preached is in the wrong business.

Agreed. It was supposed to be British humour!

The point I was really trying to get across is perhaps better expressed here by Spurgeon from one of his "Morning and Evening" devotionals:

If you are of a nervous temperament and of retiring disposition, take care that you do not too much indulge this trembling propensity, lest you should be useless to the church. Seek in the name of Him who was not ashamed of you to do some little violence to your feelings, and tell to others what Christ has told to you.

[Spurgeon2]

Originally posted by grebel
What do you think about clapping?

When you hear a musical performance, do you think it's right to clap?

What about in a church setting? Is it ok to clap?

Is it glorifying man rather than God?

What are your thoughts regarding this topic?

Hi Grebel,

Yes by all means.

Yes, Unless you are in a COC where no-one sings together and it is more like a funeral than a Christian Fellowship. Perjorative remark? Yes-I believe they are in extreme error

I am sure God likes Unity. He invented Rhythm! When the whole Church is together I believe it Glorifies God

Sometimes a Music guest will show up with little back-up. If the Church Claps it will give him/her encouragement. I would consider this Loving your neighbor which Glorifies God

Blessings,
Donnie

[Brandan Kraft]

You've got a good point there. I will think about it more for sure!