Which commandments, statutes, and laws?

[disciple]

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.

Which commandments, statutes, and laws do you think this is?

[Skeuos Eleos]

Well, it couldn't have been the 10 commandments could it - since they hadn't even been written yet! ... but then again perhaps it does relate to the fourth commandment since some would say that this was given to Adam in Eden ...


Ok, I resurrected this because I'd love to know what Bill Twisse makes of it since he wasn't around when it was originally posted.

[paulschafer]

Originally posted by disciple
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.

Which commandments, statutes, and laws do you think this is?

One thing is to examine every time God spoke to Abraham from Genesis 12 to 26 and categorize them as commandments, statues and laws. God commanded Abram to leave his father and homeland for Canaan. God spoke to Abraham about the covenant in chapter 15. Abram obeyed in chapter 15 and was counted as righteous as Apostle Paul said. Abraham obeyed sacrificing his son. He obeys in what God has spoken. So what God has spoken must be considered as commandments, statutes, and laws.

Paul

[wildboar]

The 10 commandments did not come into existence on Mt. Sinai. They had always existed. They were just put into written form at that time to make the people without excuse. Cain knew very well that it was sinful to kill his brother without there being a written law about it.

Sola Gratia,
WildBoar

[disciple]

Originally posted by wildboar
The 10 commandments did not come into existence on Mt. Sinai. They had always existed. They were just put into written form at that time to make the people without excuse. Cain knew very well that it was sinful to kill his brother without there being a written law about it.

Sola Gratia,
WildBoar

i don't mean to be anal retentive here, but i think there needs to be more (some?) supporting evidence that the 10 commandments were given prior to Mt. Sinai. just because they transgressed something or were supposed to know better, does not equate to all the commandments being given already or to some eternal moral law of God summarized in the 10 commandments. without some explicit reference that says that they were given, it is pure speculation that the 10 commandments always existed (implying that they were already given before Mt. Sinai). we can speculate and make a lot of assumptions, but we must recognize that this is all that it is and that this falls short of any proof or certainty as to the existence of something before it was given/recorded.

[wildboar]

The very phrase "remember the Sabbath day" suggests that it was prior institution. Something cannot be remembered which someone is just being told about. Also these commandments will all be followed if someone loves God and loves their neighbor. Do you believe that Cain didn't know that murder was sinful or that others did not know idolatry was sinful? If so Moses should not have been so harsh when he came down from the mountain since they had not heard the law yet.

Sola Gratia,
WildBoar

[disciple]

Originally posted by wildboar
[B]The very phrase "remember the Sabbath day" suggests that it was prior institution. Something cannot be remembered which someone is just being told about.

this is not very convincing in my opinion. we often say about something we just told someone for them to remember it. i tell my children that all of the time. i'll give them an instruction and tell/warn them to take heed and remember it in the future. and that is the difference. it's not as if God is saying, "hey, remember when i did such and such..." as if to call them to remember something in the past. He's telling them to remember something in the future. these are two completely different usages/senses of the term/idea remember.

Also these commandments will all be followed if someone loves God and loves their neighbor. Do you believe that Cain didn't know that murder was sinful or that others did not know idolatry was sinful? If so Moses should not have been so harsh when he came down from the mountain since they had not heard the law yet.

this is short of proof. there is nothing explicit that says that the 10 commandments were already common knowledge or had already been revealed. perhaps this can be surmised by good and necessary inference, but there is nothing that says this.

it seems to me from the general flow of the story and the way it sounds is that God is giving Moses new revelation at Mt. Sinai. i find no suggestion that Moses and the Israelites already knew all of that. they certainly didn't know it in that form. and after reading Ro 2, it seems possible that it was something written on our very hearts. the Gentile, without the Law of Moses still knew right and wrong. but knowing right and wrong is different from receiving revelation of the 10 commandments prior to Mt. Sinai. to me, everything in the text suggests that it was new revelation.

[paulschafer]

I propose that what God spoke is considered commandments, statues and laws. Why? Because Abraham obeyed.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;
Gen 12:2 And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing;
Gen 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."
Gen 12:4 So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him;

Gen 12:7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD who had appeared to him.
Gen 12:8 Then he proceeded from there to the mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; and there he built an altar to the LORD and called upon the name of the LORD.

Gen 13:14 The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward;
Gen 13:15 for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.
Gen 13:16 "I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered.
Gen 13:17 "Arise, walk about the land through its length and breadth; for I will give it to you."
Gen 13:18 Then Abram moved his tent and came and dwelt by the oaks of Mamre, which are in Hebron, and there he built an altar to the LORD.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great."
Gen 15:2 Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, "Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir."
Gen 15:4 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir."
Gen 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
Gen 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Gen 15:7 And He said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it."
Gen 15:8 He said, "O Lord GOD, how may I know that I will possess it?"
Gen 15:9 So He said to him, "Bring Me a three year old heifer, and a three year old female goat, and a three year old ram, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, and laid each half opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds.
Gen 15:11 The birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away.
Gen 15:12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror {and} great darkness fell upon him.
Gen 15:13 {God} said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
Gen 15:14 "But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
Gen 15:15 "As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.
Gen 15:16 "Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete."
Gen 15:17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, {there appeared} a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces.
Gen 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite
Gen 15:20 and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim
Gen 15:21 and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite."

Gen 17:1 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.
Gen 17:2 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."
Gen 17:3 Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you.
Gen 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
Gen 17:8 "I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
Gen 17:9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Gen 17:12 "And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a {servant} who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants.
Gen 17:13 "A {servant} who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."
Gen 17:15 Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah {shall be} her name.
Gen 17:16 "I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be {a mother of} nations; kings of peoples will come from her."
Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear {a child?}"
Gen 17:18 And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!"
Gen 17:19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
Gen 17:20 "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
Gen 17:21 "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year."
Gen 17:22 When He finished talking with him, God went up from Abraham.
Gen 17:23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all {the servants} who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him.
Gen 17:24 Now Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
Gen 17:25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
Gen 17:26 In the very same day Abraham was circumcised, and Ishmael his son.
Gen 17:27 All the men of his household, who were born in the house or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him.

Gen 18:9 Then they said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?" And he said, "There, in the tent."
Gen 18:10 He said, "I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him.
Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing.
Gen 18:12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"
Gen 18:13 And the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear {a child,} when I am {so} old?'
Gen 18:14 "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son."
Gen 18:15 Sarah denied {it} however, saying, "I did not laugh"; for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh."

Gen 21:1 Then the LORD took note of Sarah as He had said, and the LORD did for Sarah as He had promised.
Gen 21:2 So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time of which God had spoken to him.
Gen 21:3 Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him, whom Sarah bore to him, Isaac.
Gen 21:4 Then Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him.
Gen 21:5 Now Abraham was one hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.

Gen 21:12 But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.
Gen 21:13 "And of the son of the maid I will make a nation also, because he is your descendant."
Gen 21:14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave {them} to Hagar, putting {them} on her shoulder, and {gave her} the boy, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba.

Gen 22:1 Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
Gen 22:2 He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."
Gen 22:3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.
Gen 22:4 On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance.
Gen 22:5 Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go over there; and we will worship and return to you."
Gen 22:6 Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son, and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together.
Gen 22:7 Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." And he said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"
Gen 22:8 Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together.
Gen 22:9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.
Gen 22:10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
Gen 22:12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
Gen 22:13 Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind {him} a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.
Gen 22:14 Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it will be provided."

Gen 22:15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
Gen 22:16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Gen 22:18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
Gen 22:19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham lived at Beersheba.

Gen 24:7 "The LORD, the God of heaven, who took me from my father's house and from the land of my birth, and who spoke to me and who swore to me, saying, 'To your descendants I will give this land,' He will send His angel before you, and you will take a wife for my son from there.
Gen 24:8 "But if the woman is not willing to follow you, then you will be free from this my oath; only do not take my son back there."
Gen 24:9 So the servant placed his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and swore to him concerning this matter.
Gen 24:10 Then the servant took ten camels from the camels of his master, and set out with a variety of good things of his master's in his hand; and he arose and went to Mesopotamia, to the city of Nahor.
Gen 24:11 He made the camels kneel down outside the city by the well of water at evening time, the time when women go out to draw water.
Gen 24:12 He said, "O LORD, the God of my master Abraham, please grant me success today, and show lovingkindness to my master Abraham.
Gen 24:13 "Behold, I am standing by the spring, and the daughters of the men of the city are coming out to draw water;
Gen 24:14 now may it be that the girl to whom I say, 'Please let down your jar so that I may drink,' and who answers, 'Drink, and I will water your camels also'--{may} she {be the one} whom You have appointed for Your servant Isaac; and by this I will know that You have shown lovingkindness to my master."
Gen 24:15 Before he had finished speaking, behold, Rebekah who was born to Bethuel the son of Milcah, the wife of Abraham's brother Nahor, came out with her jar on her shoulder.

In every instance above God spoke something, Abraham responded in obediance, so I conclude that what God spoke is commandments, statues and laws.

[wildboar]

The reason given for the celebration of the Sabbath existed since the time of creation.

Exodus 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

The people in Exodus chapter 16, prior to the giving of the ten commandments are told to celebrate the Sabbath and that no manna would be given that day. Could you provide an example in which one of the ten commandments would have been unknown prior to the giving of it?

Sola Gratia,
WildBoar

[Skeuos Eleos]

Paul,

I might be ok with what you posted if it just said "commandments" but it says "commandments, statutes and ordinances". If they were one and the same thing then surely there would be no need to use all three words? Which was which??

[disciple]

Originally posted by wildboar
Could you provide an example in which one of the ten commandments would have been unknown prior to the giving of it?

my whole point is that while it may be surmised that each of the ten commandments may be found as transgressed prior to the giving of such, there is no explicit statement that they were revealed as a unit or even individually as a revelation of God. and you are apparently reading into Gen 26:5 that Abraham somehow kept the ten commandments which it does not say. the whole discussion is really one of guesswork and assumptions. it may have very well been that internal law spoken of in Ro 2. but this does not mean that it was the ten commandments.

[paulschafer]

Martin,

I don't know. What I learned from pastoral sermons the last eleven years is that to take God's written word and consider it good as gold. What I mean is that with the Word of God, is that God spoke to people. When God spoke, the human response is either obediance or disobediance. I've learned that I should take God seriously when He speaks. You can related this to the red-letter edition of the NT. I've been told the words in red are from Jesus and they hold chief significance and you do them.
Whether God forms His words arbitrarily in speaking to someone or into actual laws in OT written down by Moses systematically, it still implies that the human takes it seriously and obeys it. Thus you can say God's spoken word to Abraham was commandments, statues and laws even though it was not systematically put in order by Moses.