Gentiles, Jews, and Dispensationalism

[disciple]

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Why would God undo what He did on the cross? Why would God who made the two one (i.e., Jew and Gentile) and who broke down the barrier of the dividing wall then make a barrier again in the supposed end times tribulation and millennial kingdom? Why would He reinsert another dividing wall and make them two again? Wouldn't that be working against Himself?

[Odyssey]

Of course it would! Other questions would be: Why would god now re-institute the 'type and shadow'? That is, why would god re-institute the sacrificial system which would 'again crucify...the Son of God and put Him to open shame'. If the Law was the 'tutor' to lead them to Christ and Christ was the end or goal of the Law, why would god reestablish the tutor? If the goal has come, why start all over again?

[disciple]

perhaps a dispensationalist in these forums could answer some of these questions...

P.S. this isn't trolling. i truly would like to discuss how this works within dispensationalism

[Yoder]

How does Romans 11 fit in with your view of the nation of Israel?


Romans 11:1-2

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

God has not rejected his people at all. As a matter of fact, they are not beyond recovery at all.

Romans 11:11
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

They haven't fell beyond recovery. God is not done with the nation of Israel. That is all I personally go as far as a dispensationalist. He has made specific promises to that nation and they will be fullfilled. God is faithful and will keep those promises.

I think we get so focused in a passage of scripture that we don't realize that we are told to compare scripture with scripture.

The promises of the old testiment, both blessings and curses are literal. They are intended for the nation of Israel. It isn't any more complicated than that. Both before Christ and after Christ salvation came through faith. Abraham, Noah all the other old testiment saints. Saved by faith. They reject Christ for the most part as a nation, but they will be brought back and all the promises made to them will be fullfilled.

I think the views the reformers had with ecclesiology still had it roots in Catholic views of ecclesiology Same goes along with their views on infant baptism and some of their views on sacraments.

You cannot write off the nation of Israel. The Catholic church wanted to do so, the reformers picked up on that and I think that is still the case today.

Romans 11:23-24

23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Israel will be brought back under a saving faith in Christ and God will establish his earthly kingdom in Israel where he will rule and reign. It is as simple as that.

From my very humble understanding.

Yoder

[disciple]

How does Romans 11 fit in with your view of the nation of Israel?
...God is not done with the nation of Israel. That is all I personally go as far as a dispensationalist. He has made specific promises to that nation and they will be fullfilled. God is faithful and will keep those promises.

you'll find discussion on Rom 11 here:

http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...6&page=4&pp=15

here is an excerpt from several of my responses:

...personally, i would perhaps allow it to still be a future event but i still have problems with the way people go about interpreting this. if it is a future event (from not only paul but even of our time) then i don't know of any text that delineates that it must be majority and defines what this would mean and look like. the only text that people press is Romans 11:26 where it says that, "all Israel will be saved" where they think this means that ethnic jews will be saved en masse. but i think what is often ignored is what comes after that as proof for the statement, "26...just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." 27 "This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." first of all, what does paul mean by "all israel"? in addition, when it says "and so all Israel will be saved...". the adverb "so" is hOUTW which means "in this manner". a better translation might be, "and all israel will be saved in this way:..." the rest of v. 26 and v. 27 tells us in what way all israel will be saved.

but the main question is, has this happened yet? does John 1:29; Hebrews 8:12-13, 10:4, 11, 17; 1 Jn 3:5 have anything to do with this (v. 27)? and what is this "covenant" spoken of in Romans 11:27? is it a different covenant than the "new covenant"?

...and i think the glasses that we need to read the OT with can be found by looking at how the NT writers read it. and this reading is quite different from the contemporary dispensationally tainted lenses that are usually worn. and this is the fundamental problem. the presupposition of the interlocutor in Romans 11 is still a presupposition that many have in regards to God's promises to OC israel. my proposition is that this presupposition is fundamentally wrong headed and the way paul deals with that objection is Romans 11 is very instructive. basically his answer is thus:

1. God has not rejected His OC people (understood by the interlocutor as ethnic Israel en masse; taken by paul as an elect remnant of Jews of any size)
2. God continues and will continue to save His OC people (taken as ethnic Israel) and vv. 26-27 tells us how this happens (they are saved by faith in Christ like all the rest) and paul references the present situation and not a situation 2000+ years in the future (proven by his use of past and contemporary examples in vv. 1-4)
3. The hardening of a part is so that the gospel would be spread to the Gentiles; nothing in the text except for a dubious interpretation of vv. 25-26 indicates that at the completion of this partial hardening that there will be a return to the OC nation (e.g., having a primarily Jewish church).