antifundamentalist vs. grebel

[Brandan Kraft]

Jonathan,

The reason I moved this to another thread is because our conversation is going off topic. Your answers are classic answers I've encountered before. In fact your answers indicate to me that there really is no difference between you and an atheist. In fact, I don't think you're sure what you believe because your system for determining truth is so flawed that you wouldn't know truth if it was right in front of you. Also, you wrote, "I don't believe anything 100%, but rather I believe things in varying degrees of probability." Ironically, ALL truth has been sitting right in front of your face your entire life. Truth that you can know without a doubt. The question is not whether or not you'll find the truth, but whether or not truth will find you.

If you don't mind, I'd like it if you would continue our discussion here on this thread. I'm giving you an opportunity to have a civil conversation with someone you would call a "fundamentalist". Yes, that's right, I'm one of those "fire and brimstone" guys as you so aptly described. The internet affords us some freedoms that you wouldn't normally find standing on a street corner. Also, I will be entirely civil in my dialogue with you. I won't shout at you; I won't call you names; and I won't pout off like whimpering baby if you don't agree with me. In fact, I doubt you will agree with me immediately. I'd likewise ask that you afford me the same respect.

I'd also ask that all others refrain from posting here. I only want this conversation to be between me and Jonathan if that's ok with you Jonathan.

This weekend I thought about your answers to my previous questions. I posted them below.

I could easily counter your arguments point by point, and I will below. However, I've identified the root problem in your arguments, and it's your method of determining truth. What is it based on? You should be able to answer it... It's based on what you think! Yes, somewhere along the way, you've decided that you are an expert on determining what is right and what is wrong. You've determined that you are an expert on how God should act toward men and that your mind is the instrument which determines all truth. Do you not see the folly of this system?

OK, I think I will respond to each of your points individually...

1) The fire and brimstone crowd teach that God created a system in which the souls of people who died without becoming Christians are sent to Hell where they must endure eternal suffering. This is a hideous concept!

And who thinks this is a hideous concept? Who has determined that this is a bad thing? How do you know God isn't justified in sending people to hell for an eternity? Have you seen the world as God sees it? Have you seen the sinfulness of people as God sees?

The harm they cause is that they teach people to fear God.

As well they should.

Col 3:22, (NKJV), Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God.

Heb 10:31, (NKJV), It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1 Pet 2:17, (NKJV), Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

Rev 14:7, (NKJV), saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."

Rev 19:5, (NKJV), Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"

They cause people to walk around dreading that they might be damned for eternity if they don't convert to Christianity. It's fear mongering - psychological terrorism.

They don't cause people to walk in fear. They're simply repeating what the Bible says. Do you walk around dreading that you might be damned for eternity?

If a man was raised a Christian, but then converted to Buddhism, but still lived his life in an honorable and kind fashion - then there is no reason he should be forced to endure an eternity of suffering.

I see your point. But how do you know that man lived his life in an honorable and kind fashion? How do you determine what is honorable and kind? Do you, or does God?

The whole concept is just sick.

Sick to who? You. See, once again, you've determined that you know more about what is right and wrong than the Bible. How did you do this?

2) My answer to question 2 is a personal answer. I am not saying others should adopt my own approach. Basically, I believe those things that make the most sense to me.

You believe only things that make sense to who???? You! You see, you have set yourself up as the ultimate judge of what is true and false and that's why you will not accept the Christian view of things. Why do you think you are independent of God and able to know truth without submitting to God and the Bible?

For example, I believe in reincarnation because I feel that its supporting evidence is sufficient to make it probably true. I don't believe anything 100%, but rather I believe things in varying degrees of probability - often with a variance attached to that probability. I think it is very likely that we live many lifetimes before we have amassed enough experience to "graduate" and go on to whatever comes next in the process of our growth.

With regard to metaphysical concepts, it is not enough for a concept to have supporting evidence - it must also feel right to me intuitively. Reincarnation makes sense to me intuitively, as well.

Once again, you believe things based on what you perceive to be scientific - what makes the most "sense" to you. Need I repeat myself?

3) This is a good question. With this question, I am assuming you are referring to how I determine my ethical standard of measure - that is, how do I judge right from wrong if I don't accept any one book as the ultimate authority on right and wrong. When it comes down to ethics, logic only gets a person so far. After a certain point you have to make judgement calls based on intuition.

I want the world to be a place of joy and wonder. I don't want people to suffer, although I do understand that sometimes suffering helps us grow, and thus might well be necessary. There is a part of myself that cares deeply for others. When I do right by others, that part of me is satisfied, and thus I find "being good" to be emotionally rewarding. I suppose I base my sense of right and wrong on what satisfies my emotional drive to make both others, as well as myself, happy.

I could take this further - but it would become unwieldy. I wrote a short book of philosophy that explains many of my beliefs. One of the principles in my book is titled "The goal of life should be the greatest overall good" - if you wish, you can read it at Ozhynism.blogspot.com - In there, I explore some of this concept further.

Once again, everything you believe depends on what you think is true.

4) Well, I formed this opinion based on a thought experiment.

Wow. Never heard that one. Who's thoughts were they? Yours - independent of God's.

I asked myself, who is the worst person in history? That would have to be someone like Adolph Hitler or Ginghis Khan. Lettuce suppose that Hitler was responsible for the deaths of 50-million people (I have no idea what the real figure would be), and that he was responsible for another 100-million cases of torture. How long should he suffer for every death or torture on his hands? If we are really mad at him, perhaps we want him to suffer for 100 years for every offense. That would lead to 15 billion years worth of suffering. (I did the math in my head, so I could be wrong). So, if Hitler really deserves 15 billion years of suffering, and everyone really wants him to endure that so that we can satisfy our hatred towards him - then fine, let him suffer for that long.

However, 15 billion years is an infintessimally small period of time compared to eternity. After his 15 million years of torture is over, wouldn't it be better just to end his existence? Personally, I don't think we should punish anyone unless we hope to redeem them. If God feels that Hitler cannot be redeemed, then why not just end his existence. That would make the most sense.

Of course that would make the most sense to YOU. Have you examined every explanation of God's reasons for putting people in hell for eternity? If not you are hardly in a position of being able to judge the fairness and justice of God. You cannot be certain about the things in this world, much less the things of God. Forsake your commitment to your independence and embrace the truth of the Bible.

[Fredman]

I am curious. If our antifundamentalist acquaintance posts his list of supposed errors in the Bible, and we are more than able to answer them for his satifisfaction, will he turn away from his reincarnation stuff and submit himself to the one true God who given us his son?

Fred

[Antifundamental]

Well, I tell ya Fred - I seriously doubt that either of us is expecting to convert the other. I am willing to be convinced of anything - but I would have to be convinced.

I think Grebel makes an excellent point. I am indeed setting myself up as the judge of what is right and what is wrong. Lettuce be clear about this, however - I am only setting myself up as the judge of right and wrong within my own life. I do not believe I have all the answers, and I do not claim to have greater ethical authority than anyone else. Instead, I believe that humanity is going to have to figure those answers out for itself - over the course of many thousands of years, and with much debate, research, and analysis.

Here's the thing - I have read the Bible, and it just doesn't work for me (at least, not in whole). Grebel thinks I should submit to the will of God's word, as stated in the Bible, and stop using my own standards. But, in order to do that, I would first have to be convinced that the Bible is, in fact, the literal word of God.

It's a chicken and egg thing - circular reasoning. I cannot accept that the Bible is the literal word of God, because it proscribes an ethical system, and a metaphysical system that I find lacking.

In order for me to not find it lacking, I would have to first abandon my own sense of right and wrong. My conscience would never let me do that. I have spent my whole life analyzing reality, trying to figure out metaphysics and ethics. It is something that I am driven internally to do - you might as well ask me to stop breathing, as ask me to stop analyzing.

But that's ok - debates like these have a purpose. They help us understand each other. It'll help you become sharper at debating with non-believers like me, and It will help me become sharper at persuading others to see my point of view.

My entire life, from as long as I can remember, has been geared towards planting the seeds of what I hope will become a very powerful social movement in the future. It will take this entire lifetime to get this social movement off the ground, I imagine. But that's ok - it'll be fun doing it!

[Antifundamental]

Oh - and a comment for Grebel...

Thank you very much for letting me post here. I can imagine that the things I say are not very welcome here. If you decide that I am just stirring up too many chickens in the henhouse, then I will understand it perfectly if you decide to revoke my membership.

After all - this is your party, and I am crashing it. It is very kind of you to allow me to do so. I will try to respect your wishes regarding subject matter and language, and the like.


Yours with hope,

Jonathan Dawson Lynch

[Antifundamental]

I am not at all an atheist. Atheists believe there is not a God. I think this is just silly. The world did not create itself. I know that there are certain mathematically consistent models for a self-creating universe, but I really don't find them very convincing.

I mean - why did the big bang happen? Why did it happen in such a way as to create a universe that is so wonderfully prone towards the generation of life? The answer to that question is simple, in my opinion - because it was designed to.

If I came across a computer sitting in the desert, I would not ask myself if it created itself, I would ask who created it. The same is true of the universe in which we live.

If you guys think I am obnoxious in the way I argue with fundamentalists, then you should see how I argue with atheists! I love making them uncomfortable. In order to be an atheist, you have to cut yourself off from your interal awareness of God's presence - and that is just a terrible thing to do to oneself.

Atheists think they are relying solely on logic - but their logic is disgustingly flawed. There are countless examples of evidence for the existence of God, or an afterlife. None of these examples are completely convincing in themselves - but taken as a whole they are pretty powerful.

Materialists have to convince themselves that all of this evidence is just a series of mistakes. I have analyzed their arguments to this effect, and they just don't add up.


Yours with hope,

Jonathan

[disciple]

Originally posted by Antifundamental
If you guys think I am obnoxious in the way I argue with fundamentalists, then you should see how I argue with atheists! I love making them uncomfortable. In order to be an atheist, you have to cut yourself off from your interal awareness of God's presence - and that is just a terrible thing to do to oneself.

come on over to this thread then.

[Fredman]

Here's the thing - I have read the Bible, and it just doesn't work for me (at least, not in whole). Grebel thinks I should submit to the will of God's word, as stated in the Bible, and stop using my own standards. But, in order to do that, I would first have to be convinced that the Bible is, in fact, the literal word of God.

What then would be that thing that convinces you?
I do not believe anyone answering any of your objections would be satisfactory for your belief system. What Grebel states is true: In order for the Bible to work for you, you must abandon your worldview and submit yourself to the son.

It's a chicken and egg thing - circular reasoning. I cannot accept that the Bible is the literal word of God, because it proscribes an ethical system, and a metaphysical system that I find lacking.

Well, I personally believe that all people are circular in their reasoning. There is no way to escape it. You have axioms and presuppositions that you take on the basis of faith and presuppose they are correct with out question. For instance, your belief in re-incarnation is circular reasoning. You believe it because you believe you experienced some event that you take by faith as being proof of re-incarnation, and thus make value judgments based upon that reasoning. How do you know what you experienced is true or not? Just because you supposedly experienced it? Because your experience some how jives with other's testimony?
In the same manner you claim you cannot accept Biblical Christianity, I can not accept that reincarnation is true because it proscribes an ethical and metaphysical system that I find not only to be lacking, but to be false. It is subjective, unverifiable, and other factors could be the cause of deception, say for instance, demonic activity.
With all of that in mind, you still haven't given up those problems that apparently keep you from believing the Bible to be God's word. You don't have to give us the whole list, just the one question that you believe is, or has been, unanswerable by fundamentalists you asked in the past. The mother of all unanswerable questions.

Fred

[Brandan Kraft]

I think Grebel makes an excellent point. I am indeed setting myself up as the judge of what is right and what is wrong.

Great, I'm glad we agree with this statement. The question I have for you - and I ask that you do answer this is this: Can you be certain of anything if all you have to depend on are your eyes and mind? Earlier you suggested you believe in a variety of things including reincarnation, etc... What is striking is you said you are not 100% certain those things are true. How can you be certain of anything? Yet amazingly, you are 100% certain that the things of the Bible are not true, are you not? Otherwise, you certainly wouldn't be "antifundamental" - because if you were uncertain about fundamentalism, you wouldn't be so bold in your claims. After all, it seems according to your belief system that you cannot be certain about anything... How ironic it is that you are certain "fundamental" christianity is false, dangerous, and harmful to society.

Lettuce be clear about this, however - I am only setting myself up as the judge of right and wrong within my own life.

And that is why if you continue to prop yourself up like that, you will NEVER know if the Bible and fundamental Christianity is true or not. Because you see, Christianity is a belief system that is NOT dependent on self for knowledge and truth. As a Christian, I am committed to examining God's Word and depending on God for the answers to my questions.

I do not believe I have all the answers, and I do not claim to have greater ethical authority than anyone else.

That is a flat out contradiction of what you have stated earlier. Obviously you think your belief system is better than fundamental christianity. Otherwise you wouldn't be "antifundamental".

Instead, I believe that humanity is going to have to figure those answers out for itself - over the course of many thousands of years, and with much debate, research, and analysis.

Humanity will stumble around in darkness unless God reveals His truth to them.

Here's the thing - I have read the Bible, and it just doesn't work for me (at least, not in whole). Grebel thinks I should submit to the will of God's word, as stated in the Bible, and stop using my own standards. But, in order to do that, I would first have to be convinced that the Bible is, in fact, the literal word of God.

Commit yourself to Christ, throw yourself on His mercy, and believe the Bible by faith.

It's a chicken and egg thing - circular reasoning. I cannot accept that the Bible is the literal word of God, because it proscribes an ethical system, and a metaphysical system that I find lacking.

Yes, it is a chicken and egg thing, you've nailed it on the head. But don't you see that you are also doing the same thing? Somewhere along the way in your life you decided you were independent of God and capable of forming decisions and opinions about the world and your life without dependence on the personal Holy God of the Scriptures. But you ask, what makes this circular... Ahh, you see, you made this decision to be independent independently from God and His Word. How could you expect to know if the Bible is true or not if you have independently determined that you are independent of it when the Bible itself claims that to know God and His Word, you must be dependent on Him. Once again, I urgently implore you to forsake your committment to your presumptious decision to remain and operate independently from God.

In order for me to not find it lacking, I would have to first abandon my own sense of right and wrong. My conscience would never let me do that. I have spent my whole life analyzing reality, trying to figure out metaphysics and ethics. It is something that I am driven internally to do - you might as well ask me to stop breathing, as ask me to stop analyzing.

"lettuce" go to the root of your problem. You are not willing to abandon your sense of right and wrong because that would mean you would have to admit you've lied to yourself for 30+ years. You would also have to admit you are a mere child in understanding and that you are completely dependent on someone else other than yourself for EVERYTHING. Of course you're not willing to do that.

Mt 18:3b, (NKJV), ...Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Oh - and a comment for Grebel...

Thank you very much for letting me post here. I can imagine that the things I say are not very welcome here. If you decide that I am just stirring up too many chickens in the henhouse, then I will understand it perfectly if you decide to revoke my membership.

After all - this is your party, and I am crashing it. It is very kind of you to allow me to do so. I will try to respect your wishes regarding subject matter and language, and the like.

I would actually like it if more skeptics as yourself actually came along. It's my duty as a Christian to proclaim the truth to a lost and dying world.

. . . but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; (1 Pet 3:15) . . .

Sincerely,
Brandan Kraft

[Antifundamental]

Hi Grebel...

Yes - it all comes down to what we choose as our starting point.

Ultimately, logic is not sufficient. Logic is a great tool, but logic depends on starting with certain premises. I maintain that we must first make a value judgement about the Bible in order to adopt it as our standard of belief. I read it, found it lacking, and made the value judgement that it is not the ultimate authority. In fact, I have made that same judgement on every holy book I have read - they all reek of the sort of personal bias one expects to find in a book written solely by men. Of all the great religious texts, the Tao Te Ching speaks to me the most - yet I still find many flaws with it. For one thing, 3 thousand years of translation have obviously distorted much of its meanings.

You have read the Bible, and made the value judgement that it is indeed the word of God. What is it about the Bible that you found so impressive that makes you think it is the word of God?

You urgently ask me to let God into my life. But Grebel - I do. I pray, and I feel God's presence when I pray. It is absolutely wonderful. I have been through some truly nightmarish medical problems in my life. My dependence on God's love to provide me strength is the only thing that allowed me to conquer my illness. Here's the thing - my prayers lead me towards much inspiration. I feel compelled to do good by the world. I feel compelled to pursue my dream of building a social movement that might plant the seeds for creating a society with much greater happiness and much less strife. I feel compelled to abandon personal pride, and to find motivation for my actions in the joy of creating beautiful things and making others happy.

Here is the thing - none of my praying has caused me to be inspired to accept the Bible as the literal word of God - why is that? It has also not inspired me to accept any other book as the literal word of God? I promise you, Grebel, I truly am willing to change my mind if presented with sufficient reason to do so. So, why is it that my truly sincere praying has not lead me to accept your religious views - just as it has not lead me to accept the religious views of fundamentalists of other faiths?

Am I supposed to believe that my prayers are being answered by demons who are conspiring to cause me to be a good person and care about other people? That doesn't sound very demonic to me.

I will give you my list of criticisms of the Bible after you respond to this post. My wife is urging me to get off the computer right now and get to work cleaning up our house like I promised I would!

Yours with hope,

JDL

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by Antifundamental
You have read the Bible, and made the value judgement that it is indeed the word of God. What is it about the Bible that you found so impressive that makes you think it is the word of God?

Unlike you, I didn't read the Bible to "see if it is true", but I read it and believed it because I'm committed to Christ, and I trust Him. My dependence on Christ could lead me to no other conclusion than to believe and embrace the Bible. Also, the Bible is self verifying...

2 Tim 3:14-17, (NKJV), But as for you, continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, (15) and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Also, the necessity for belief in the Bible is made clear in the Bible itself.

1 Cor 14:37, (NKJV), If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

Jn 5:47, (NKJV), "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Lk 16:31, (NKJV), "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

1 Jn 4:6, (NKJV), We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Also I know through the Bible that God has promised to preserve His Word for His people in all generations.

Isa 59:21, (NKJV), "As for Me," says the LORD, "this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants' descendants," says the LORD, "from this time and forevermore."

Ps 111:7-8, (NKJV), The works of His hands are verity and justice; All His precepts are sure. (8) They stand fast forever and ever, And are done in truth and uprightness.

The Bible cannot be judged by any higher standard. The Word of God speaks for itself; it is not verified by any other than the self-verifying Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

And because of my world view, any apparent difficulties with teachings of the Bible rests on my misunderstanding the world, the Bible, or both. The problem is not in the Bible itself.

I could give you more and more evidence if you like... The reason you won't accept the bible or these arguments is because you're committed to your independent thinking. Your rejection of the authority of Scripture resides on your authority which cannot be justified.

You urgently ask me to let God into my life. But Grebel - I do. I pray, and I feel God's presence when I pray.

But to what god are you praying? It sounds to me you're praying to a god that you've created in your mind. Have you thrown yourself to the Almighty God of the Bible who Sovereignly controls everything in this world; where nothing exists without His divine influence; and who hates the wicked and throws them into hell for an eternity?

My dependence on God's love to provide me strength is the only thing that allowed me to conquer my illness.

Why do you think the God of the Bible loves you? Your god and my God have nothing in common. My God hates sinners and throws them in hell. I'm sorry to say Jonathan, if you are unrepentant in your selfish rebellion against God, His wrath will remain revealed from Heaven against you. He hates you. He despises the sight of you. He intends to put you in hell, and it is only His gracious longsuffering and forbearance that keeps you from the burning pit this very moment. He is not obliged to withold His judgment another minute.

Ps 11:5, (NKJV), The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Rom 9:13, (NKJV), As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Deut 32:19, (KJV), And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

There is only one type of sinner that God cannot despise, one whom He can indeed love without violating His holy character. "A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise" (Ps 51:17). Will you not humble yourself and embrace the Bible with child like faith?

Here's the thing - my prayers lead me towards much inspiration.

And you're sure you're hearing from the God of the Bible? Are you sure it's not the devil inspiring you who wants you to go to hell by deceiving you with lies of "love" and warm feelings?

I feel compelled to do good by the world.

And what is good?

I feel compelled to pursue my dream of building a social movement

Pursuing your dreams? What about pursuing God's will? The God of the Bible, the KING of the world demands your total allegiance to His goals and pursuits, not yours.

that might plant the seeds for creating a society with much greater happiness and much less strife.

I feel compelled to abandon personal pride, and to find motivation for my actions in the joy of creating beautiful things and making others happy.

That sounds nice, but it is an abomination before God if it's not done in submission to Him.

Here is the thing - none of my praying has caused me to be inspired to accept the Bible as the literal word of God - why is that?

Why??? - because you're not praying to the God of Scripture. God is not in heaven hoping you might accept His word... He demands that you embrace it - whether it makes sense to you or not.

It has also not inspired me to accept any other book as the literal word of God? I promise you, Grebel, I truly am willing to change my mind if presented with sufficient reason to do so. So, why is it that my truly sincere praying has not lead me to accept your religious views - just as it has not lead me to accept the religious views of fundamentalists of other faiths?

Because your praying is not sincere. You will only accept the things of God if they appeal to your intellect. Also, I repeat myself, to which god are you praying? The One revealed in the Bible, or the one you've created in your mind? Why would you expect the God of the Bible to listen to your prayers when they are directed to some other god? No amount of evidence is going to convince you that the things I say to you are true unless you forsake your commitment to your independence.

Am I supposed to believe that my prayers are being answered by demons who are conspiring to cause me to be a good person and care about other people? That doesn't sound very demonic to me.

Yes... According to Scripture, you are a slave to satan, held in his chains, unable to have any communication with God. Your situation is pretty hopeless. Throw yourself to the mercy of the Sovereign God of the Bible and He will reveal Himself to you.

And again, what is a "good person"? How did you determine what is "good"? Again, you've decided independently of the Creator what "good" is. You're seeking after what you have deemed "good", not after God the definition of good.

I will give you my list of criticisms of the Bible after you respond to this post. My wife is urging me to get off the computer right now and get to work cleaning up our house like I promised I would!

Thanks Jonathan. I appreciate our conversation. I hope through our conversation, God may reveal the truth to you.

[Antifundamental]

Grebel - Listen to things you are saying...

You are telling me God hates me. I am not the one being seduced down a path of anger and hatred - you are.

Before this conversation gets too out of hand, lets make something clear. You are my friend. You have taken the time to indulge me in this conversation, and I really appreciate it. No matter how personal, vicious or nasty this conversation turns, I will still consider you to be my friend. For that matter, if you decide that I am the most evil person on the planet, and that you despise me with all your heart, I am still going to regard you as my friend (although, such awful feelings could cause our friendship to be a wee bit awkward, i must acknowledge.)

Grebel, the love of God is within all of us. We feel it every day on a subconscious basis. With practice, we can learn to feel it consciously. I am sorry that you think it is Satan's love I am feeling when I reach out with my soul into the multiverse - but there is not much to say to that. I trust my own process of pursuing truth because, so far, it has worked very well for me. It has given me the strength and inspiration to conquer an illness that no doctors could figure out.

It comes down to the starting point - you assume the Bible is true. I assume that my own judgement will guide me well in my spiritual pursuits. You are right in saying that we all have to start somewhere - there is no getting around that.

I think we are at an impass. This is the impass that it always comes down to. You believe in the Bible because the Bible tells you to believe in the Bible. This is pure circular reasoning. I believe in my own approach because I have found it rewarding to do so. But, how do I know that my approach is the right one to choose - because it works for me. This, too, is pure circular reasoning.

No matter how you slice it, you have to start with certain assumptions. Logic is not enough.

I guess time will tell which of us is right.

Do you really want me to post my list of criticisms of the Bible? It is just going to come down to the same thing over and over again. I see no way past this impass.

But - consider this. Your belief system is based on lots of anger and hatred. If you are hoping to pursuade others to see the world your way, you are not going to have much success with that approach. It is intrinsic to human nature to care about others. A belief system based on a God who hates the majority of people in the world, just because the majority of people in the world are not believers in the fundamentalist Christian view of the world, is not going to persuade the masses. The larger trend in society - all societies, not just the U.S. - is away from dogmatic beliefs. I intend to serve as one of the driving forces in that trend. My goal in this conversation is to acquire an understanding of the fundamentalist worldview, so that I will be better equipped in dissuading people from adopting that world view. To that end, I feel we have made great progress, and I really appreciate your help in doing so.

Grebel, if you want to convince others to see the world your way, you are going to have to use something other than a system based on hatred. As corny as it sounds, love is the answer. When you boil all the philosophical stuff down, loving others as you would yourself is about the best advice going.

Doesn't the idea of God hating me - even though I love God - bother you in the slightest? You say it comes down to which God we are talking about. I am talking about the entity who created the multiverse. I am talking about the Creator. I don't think the Creator is something I have just invented inside of my mind. My concept of the Creator is certainly going to be inadequate when compared to the real thing - but there is no way to avoid that. God is too vast for a limited entity such as myself to truly comprehend. All I can do is do my best.

You say God hates my independence. But Grebel, that is who we are - independently thinking entities. God created us with the capacity for independent thought. Your view would mean that God created us in order to hate us - except for those few people who choose to abandon all independent thought and believe blindly in the Bible. This just concept is just too twisted to consider. God is not an asshole. God does not create entities in order to hate them. I would want no part of such a demented system.

I give you this challenge. Pray. Reach out with your soul - hold no presuppositions in your mind. Simply reach out with your soul into the multiverse, and rest quietly to see what sort of feeling you recieve. God's love is there, to be felt by all of us.

Hatred doesn't work.

Yours with hope,

Jonathan Dawson Lynch

[Fredman]

Jonathan,

What Grebel is stating is that you have no basis to believe in the god you claim to believe in. To suggest that we are wrong headed fundamentalists is to say that we are deceived, going down the wrong path, etc. That in turn would mean that you are correct, because you are judging us according to your particular standard. The problem is that you have no source for this standard. It is essentially subjective, personal, and can not be tested. God's word can be, however. It is objective and is self authenticating.
Does this deity you say created the multivese reveal himself in some way? Does he have no standards of right and wrong? Is he sovereign? The god you are advocating just seems to be a man blown up big.

Fred

--------------------------

The Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord... 1 Thess. 1:8,9

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by Antifundamental
Grebel - Listen to things you are saying...

You are telling me God hates me. I am not the one being seduced down a path of anger and hatred - you are.

No I'm not. I don't hate you. I don't hate anyone. I'm just repeating what the Scriptures say Jonathan. I hope with all my heart that you would turn from your rebellion and embrace the risen Christ who freely gives life to all those who believe.

Before this conversation gets too out of hand, lets make something clear. You are my friend.

Well, I beg to differ. You're not in Christ, and therefore you are not my friend. But I do not consider you my enemy either. I believe the enemy is your master who has you under his thumb. I grieve for you and would very much like to call you my friend.

Grebel, the love of God is within all of us.

Really? And you know this because? Oh because of some "feeling" you had.. How do you know this feeling wasn't caused by the anchovies you ate on a pizza one day?

We feel it every day on a subconscious basis. With practice, we can learn to feel it consciously. I am sorry that you think it is Satan's love I am feeling when I reach out with my soul into the multiverse - but there is not much to say to that. I trust my own process of pursuing truth because, so far, it has worked very well for me. It has given me the strength and inspiration to conquer an illness that no doctors could figure out.

Of course you trust yourself - because your mind is your god.

It comes down to the starting point - you assume the Bible is true. I assume that my own judgement will guide me well in my spiritual pursuits. You are right in saying that we all have to start somewhere - there is no getting around that.

You must think very highly of yourself then. I don't trust myself and would much rather trust the One who created everything and designed me rather than my puny intellect.

I think we are at an impass. This is the impass that it always comes down to. You believe in the Bible because the Bible tells you to believe in the Bible. This is pure circular reasoning. I believe in my own approach because I have found it rewarding to do so. But, how do I know that my approach is the right one to choose - because it works for me. This, too, is pure circular reasoning.

And you're willing to stake your life - an eternal stay in the pit of hell - on this decision?

But - consider this. Your belief system is based on lots of anger and hatred.

Really, you know this because? Oh because you think so.

If you are hoping to pursuade others to see the world your way, you are not going to have much success with that approach.

Actually I have no confidence in my ability to persuade people to believe the gospel. I'm just a messenger. The truth is, in order for people to believe, God must reveal the truth to people, and enable them to believe. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have free will to embrace the gospel. It seems nearly impossible to jump the gap from your worldview to my worldview. Only through the miracle of God giving you spiritual life will you be able to see things the way I do. So you see, salvation is not in my hands, but in the hands of my Father in heaven.

It is intrinsic to human nature to care about others.

Really? Wow, your observations are contrary to mine. I mostly see people caring for themselves in this world - not others. And besides your belief runs against a major theme of the Bible - that men are totally depraved and incapable of pleasing God apart from Christ.

A belief system based on a God who hates the majority of people in the world, just because the majority of people in the world are not believers in the fundamentalist Christian view of the world, is not going to persuade the masses.

Christ didn't come for the masses, but for His sheep which were elected to salvation before the foundation of the world.

The larger trend in society - all societies, not just the U.S. - is away from dogmatic beliefs.

I have no interest in trends. Again, my beliefs are based on my commitment to Christ.

I intend to serve as one of the driving forces in that trend. My goal in this conversation is to acquire an understanding of the fundamentalist worldview, so that I will be better equipped in dissuading people from adopting that world view.

Actually Jonathan, you will never be able to thwart the sovereign purpose of God when He calls His elect.

Grebel, if you want to convince others to see the world your way, you are going to have to use something other than a system based on hatred. As corny as it sounds, love is the answer. When you boil all the philosophical stuff down, loving others as you would yourself is about the best advice going.

While I agree with you that I should love others as I love myself, please tell me what could be more loving than warning others that their soul is in jeopardy of eternal damnation if they don't turn from themselves to Christ?

Doesn't the idea of God hating me - even though I love God - bother you in the slightest?

You obviously don't love the God of the Bible. And to be honest with you, no it doesn't bother me that God hates individuals. He is the potter and I am His pottery. Is He not free to deal with His creation as He sees fit? Who am I to question Him? No, on the day of judgment when God sends those countless poor wretched souls to hell, I will rejoice in God and be glad He did it. Shocking? Of course it is because it offends your carnal nature and your inclination to glorify men.

You say it comes down to which God we are talking about. I am talking about the entity who created the multiverse. I am talking about the Creator. I don't think the Creator is something I have just invented inside of my mind. My concept of the Creator is certainly going to be inadequate when compared to the real thing - but there is no way to avoid that. God is too vast for a limited entity such as myself to truly comprehend. All I can do is do my best.

It's amazing that you can make this statement, but then rely on your limited intellect to determine your worldview rather than trusting the knowable God of the Bible.

You say God hates my independence. But Grebel, that is who we are - independently thinking entities.

That's who you are. But I am completely dependent upon my blessed savior for everything.

Your view would mean that God created us in order to hate us - except for those few people who choose to abandon all independent thought and believe blindly in the Bible.

I don't BLINDLY believe in the Bible. Of course when I first believed, it seemed like an independent decision, but after reading the Scriptures, I realized that it was God that revealed the truth of the Bible to me. I also realized that it was the work of the Holy Spirit in me that enabled me to believe. In fact, after God gave life to me, I couldn't help but to believe and place all my faculties to the care of Christ.

This just concept is just too twisted to consider. God does not create entities in order to hate them. I would want no part of such a demented system.

Rom 9:18-23, (NKJV), Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" (20) But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? (22) What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Who are you Jonathan to say such a thing about God? Does not God have dominion and the right to do with His creation as He pleases? Of course you wouldn't want a part of such a system. Why? Because it offends your prideful view of yourself as somebody who's important.

I'd be curious as to what objections you have of the Bible Jonathan Fred, if you have anything you'd like to add, please jump in

Sincerely,
Brandan

[Antifundamental]

Well here we go then. This is excerpted from an ongoing Email discussion I have had with another fundamentalist. I wish to preface this by saying that, if there are factual things that I get wrong in this list - then my apologies. I appreciate any corrections on what things the bible really does and does not say.

===============================

I'd like this list, if you would.

1) The latter parts of the old testiment are practically unreadable to me.
A good writer could have made them far easier to follow. I assume God
would be an excellent writer.

2) There is endless debate over the meaning of various passages of the
Bible - A God inspired manuscript should have been clearer.

3) In the old testament, God helped the Hebrews win their wars. This just
sounds like faith in a tribal God to me - not like the workings of an
entity capable of creating the multiverse. I just cannot accept that God helps
this tribe over that tribe in land disputes. If a loving God was going to
intervene in war, it would be to help the good guys subdue the bad guys
without killing them - or something like that.

4) I cannot possibly accept that God would send the angel of death to kill
all the first born of the enemy - this is God we're talking about here -
plenty of gentler methods of persuasion could have been achieved.

5) How could I possibly be blamed for something my ancestor did? Adam's
sin is not my own. I've plenty of my own mistakes to carry on my
conscience, without needing to carry other people's as well.

6) There is nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality. There are plenty
of things wrong with irresponsible sexual behavior - the spreading of
disease, emotional problems, etc... But romantic love between two people of
the same gender can be just as strong, just as loving, and just as tender as
romantic love between two people of opposite genders. Any book that
condemns homosexuality without even providing extensive details as to why it
would be wrong just reeks of the personal bias of the authors. The hatred of
homosexuality that comes from the Bible has caused so much unnecessary
emotional trauma for homosexuals, it is just scary. I cannot imagine God would
do that.

7) The central message of what Jesus taught is just brilliant - Love your
neighbor as you would yourself. That one concept, when broken down and
analyzed is just about the best philosophy out there. It is the reason
Christianity has been successful, in my opinion. The Bible could have played up
more of this concept, and less of the negative stuff.

8) December 25th is not Jesus birthday - it is the day of the winter
solstice (I think) - it was just co-opted from old pagan celebrations. (I am
not sure this is terribly relevent to the Bible, however)

9) The Bible teaches that the only way to God is through Jesus. But this
teaching just does not hold true in the real world. Nearly all religions
describe some method of learning to feel the presence of the Holy Ghost.
And they all describe the way the divine presence feels with the same words.
Actually, they all say words are utterly inadequate to describe the
experience - but attempts at describing the experience all sound very much alike.
This is true even between religions that had virtually no contact between
each other! I find my own method of prayer to be profoundly rewarding,
and it involves directly opening myself up to emotional communication I
believe we all receive on an ongoing basis from God. I don't seek God through
Jesus, and yet it still works quite well.

10) A good person who does not convert to Christianity does not deserve
eternal damnation - no matter how you define eternal damnation. If little
'ol me can imagine a better system than that - then God, who is
incomprehensibly vaster than myself, can certainly do better. I am not rejecting God's
system, I am just rejecting the book that describes what would be a flawed
system. It isn't the system that's wrong, just the Bible's description of
that system.

11) Why would eating shellfish have been an abomination in the times when
Leviticus was written, but now it is not? Surely this is just a leftover
proscription against some sort of unsanitary dietary practice. Maybe it was
good advice at the time - I don't know if shellfish back then, in that
area of the world, were more dangerous or something. But this sort of thing
does not make the Bible seem Godly to me.

Do you need me to go on with this list? I could do so - Hell, I could
spend all day nitpicking at the Bible. What would be the point? There are
plenty of things to criticize, which just proves that it is not divinely
inspired. None of those criticisms in any way lessons the most important
message from the Bible. The golden rule really is golden.

[disciple]

Originally posted by Antifundamental
The larger trend in society - all societies, not just the U.S. - is away from dogmatic beliefs. I intend to serve as one of the driving forces in that trend. My goal in this conversation is to acquire an understanding of the fundamentalist worldview, so that I will be better equipped in dissuading people from adopting that world view. To that end, I feel we have made great progress, and I really appreciate your help in doing so.

do you not see the logical inconsistency in what you are saying? you are being inconsistent and your arguemnt is just special pleading. you are also commiting a pragmatic fallacy (i.e., arguing that something is true because it has practical effects on people: it makes them happier, easier to deal with, more moral, loyal, stable). how can you say that the trend is away from dogmatic beliefs and that you are going to help toward this trend when you are telling us that fundamentalists are wrong and that our worldview is faulty? that by definition is being dogmatic. how can you be dogmatic about this when the trend is away from dogmatic beliefs which you propose to be an advocate of? how can you even make such a statement? don't you see the logical inconsistency in your argument?!

[disciple]

Originally posted by Antifundamental
This just concept is just too twisted to consider. God is not an asshole. God does not create entities in order to hate them. I would want no part of such a demented system.
...
Hatred doesn't work.

are you being dogmatic about this? isn't that a no-no and counter-productive to your purposes? or is it just ok for you to be dogmatic but not ok for anyone else?

[Brandan Kraft]

Originally posted by Antifundamental
1) The latter parts of the old testiment are practically unreadable to me. A good writer could have made them far easier to follow. I assume God would be an excellent writer.

The Bible is perfectly clear to me. What's so hard for you to follow? This is a pretty poor reason for rejecting the Bible. I'll tell you what's hard for me to follow is your fuzzy method of determining truth. Does that mean I should reject it as well?

2) There is endless debate over the meaning of various passages of the Bible - A God inspired manuscript should have been clearer.

It's perfectly clear to those whom it was written. To those who are not called, of course it's not clear...

Rom 11:8, (NKJV), Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."

3) In the old testament, God helped the Hebrews win their wars. This just sounds like faith in a tribal God to me - not like the workings of an entity capable of creating the multiverse. I just cannot accept that God helps this tribe over that tribe in land disputes. If a loving God was going to intervene in war, it would be to help the good guys subdue the bad guys without killing them - or something like that.

The key words to your argument are these, "I just cannot accept". Of course you can't because it violates your idea of what God should be like.

4) I cannot possibly accept that God would send the angel of death to kill all the first born of the enemy - this is God we're talking about here - plenty of gentler methods of persuasion could have been achieved.

Interesting enough this violates your preconceived notions of God again. Yet nowhere have you pointed out a contradiction in Scripture - just a contradiction of your feelings.

5) How could I possibly be blamed for something my ancestor did? Adam's sin is not my own. I've plenty of my own mistakes to carry on my conscience, without needing to carry other people's as well.

That is a good question... But instead of questioning, why not accept the truth of the Bible and embrace it and maybe God will reveal the answer to you.

6) There is nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality. There are plenty of things wrong with irresponsible sexual behavior - the spreading of disease, emotional problems, etc... But romantic love between two people of the same gender can be just as strong, just as loving, and just as tender as romantic love between two people of opposite genders. Any book that condemns homosexuality without even providing extensive details as to why it would be wrong just reeks of the personal bias of the authors. The hatred of homosexuality that comes from the Bible has caused so much unnecessary emotional trauma for homosexuals, it is just scary. I cannot imagine God would do that.

Once again the Bible offends your preconceived notions. Is this why you won't embrace the Bible? Let go of your pride, humble yourself, and maybe God will reveal this knowledge to you.

7) The central message of what Jesus taught is just brilliant - Love your neighbor as you would yourself. That one concept, when broken down and analyzed is just about the best philosophy out there. It is the reason Christianity has been successful, in my opinion. The Bible could have played up more of this concept, and less of the negative stuff.

The arrogance displayed in this one statement is astounding. You are essentially stating you know better than God how to write a letter to His people.

8) December 25th is not Jesus birthday - it is the day of the winter solstice (I think) - it was just co-opted from old pagan celebrations. (I am not sure this is terribly relevent to the Bible, however)

Actually I agree with you, and it's not found in the Bible. And no, I don't celebrate "christmas" as a "christian" holiday.

9) The Bible teaches that the only way to God is through Jesus. But this teaching just does not hold true in the real world.

Once again your argument is based on your groundless commitment to your presuppositions and is therefore without weight.

Nearly all religions describe some method of learning to feel the presence of the Holy Ghost.

I didn't know the Bible described a method of learning to "feel" the Holy Spirit. As far as I know, the Bible simply states the Holy Spirit takes up residence in His elect and points the individual to Christ.

And they all describe the way the divine presence feels with the same words. Actually, they all say words are utterly inadequate to describe the experience - but attempts at describing the experience all sound very much alike. This is true even between religions that had virtually no contact between each other! I find my own method of prayer to be profoundly rewarding, and it involves directly opening myself up to emotional communication I believe we all receive on an ongoing basis from God. I don't seek God through Jesus, and yet it still works quite well.

Well the Bible doesn't teach to pray to "get a feeling". Nor does it teach you to "open yourself to emotional communication." So I really don't know what you're talking about because none of what you described is in the Bible.

10) A good person who does not convert to Christianity does not deserve eternal damnation - no matter how you define eternal damnation. If little 'ol me can imagine a better system than that - then God, who is incomprehensibly vaster than myself, can certainly do better. I am not rejecting God's system, I am just rejecting the book that describes what would be a flawed system. It isn't the system that's wrong, just the Bible's description of that system.

Well, your argument would be true if there is such a thing as a "good person who does not convert to Christianity". Your opinion cannot be supported as fact because you cannot know the universe well enough to decide independently who is good and who is bad. Also, how do you expect to know if the Bible is right and wrong here if you refuse to submit to the God of the Bible?

11) Why would eating shellfish have been an abomination in the times when Leviticus was written, but now it is not? Surely this is just a leftover proscription against some sort of unsanitary dietary practice. Maybe it was good advice at the time - I don't know if shellfish back then, in that area of the world, were more dangerous or something. But this sort of thing does not make the Bible seem Godly to me.

That's a pretty weak argument. If you really understood the meaning of the Old and New Covenants (and I doubt you'll take the time to really study them) and how that the law of the Old Testament pointed to Christ, you would understand... You completely discount the Bible because it doesn't fit with your preconceived ideas of what's right and wrong.

Do you need me to go on with this list? I could do so - Hell, I could spend all day nitpicking at the Bible. What would be the point? There are plenty of things to criticize, which just proves that it is not divinely inspired. None of those criticisms in any way lessons the most important message from the Bible. The golden rule really is golden.

No you don't need to go on. Every single argument you gave was essentially the same... What was your base argument? "I don't agree with this, I don't agree with that, therefore it's not true." You're so committed to yourself and puny intellect that if God were to speak in a loud voice to you commanding you to embrace the gospel of the Bible, that you'd say, "no I won't because you're not like the God I imagined!!!" What will you say if you do find yourself being cast into hell someday?

[Antifundamental]

See - I told you there was no point to posting my list. You are absolutely right. It all comes down to one thing - my own standards. We all have our own standards. You have chosen to adopt the teachings of the Bible as your standard. I have chosen to trust my own reasoning and intuition. You call it arrogant, I call it being reasonable. If you knew me in the real world, you would probably find me really likeable. I am not at all arrogant and pushy. I do not seek to control others - I seek to empower them.

Grebel, you ascribe to a system in which the vast majority of humanity is going to wind up in Hell, where they will be tortured for eternity. In fact, you are saying that you support this system. My conscience would never let me support such a horrid system.

If - and this is a really big 'IF' here - if it were the case that fundamental Christianity is accurate in its description of the cosmos, then I would feel compelled to rebel against the entire system. I would fight, to the end of my existence, for a system which works for everyone - not just a select few. I would fight for a system that is kind, and loving, and encourages the process of learning and growing for all of its inhabitants - not just the lucky few whom God happens to select as his chosen. I will never back down before the biggest bully on the block.

Fortunately, I don't believe in such a system. I believe God is much kinder than that.

This is not pride that drives me to feel this way - it is my firm, inborn committment to my own sense of right and wrong. Of course, You and I probably define pride differently. You would call that pride, I would call it independence. I think of pride as the "gee, aren't I wonderful" syndrome. Some people really are wonderful, and it is ok for them to acknowledge that - but then they should move on to other thoughts. Dwelling on pride leads to narcisism, which leads to misery.

So - do you think I am just about the most arrogant person you've ever met? I hope we meet in person someday. I think we would get along well (when we aren't arguing about religion, that is). All religious debate aside, I am not such a bad fellow. I make people laugh, and I seek to do good in the world.

What is your opinion of the Koran? Do you believe it was Satan who inspired Mohammed to write his manuscript, or do you believe it was just his imagination? What is your opinion of the B'Hai faith?

Yours with hope,

JL

[disciple]

Originally posted by Antifundamental
If - and this is a really big 'IF' here - if it were the case that fundamental Christianity is accurate in its description of the cosmos, then I would feel compelled to rebel against the entire system.

i thought dogmatism was wrong? are you being dogmatic here?

I would fight, to the end of my existence, for a system which works for everyone - not just a select few.

so you're advocating a system that has the most adherents? then you should be a muslim or roman catholic or something. good luck in attempting to do this but i think you're fighting a losing battle that is pretty much in vain and self defeating.

[Brandan Kraft]

Hi Jonathan,

In my next post I'm going to attempt to show you the futility of your thinking - where it leads, and how it completely traps you. I don't know if you will be able to see it, but that doesn't mean I won't try

Sincerely,
Brandan