Second death and where are we after death?

[Faithnhope]

I have been trying to figure the hell thing out for a long time. I found the scripture in
Revelations 20:14-15.
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
I am hoping this means that all who choose not to accept salvation through Jesus will then be destroyed and not continue to suffer. I hurt when I think of the concept of hell and I know God is much more loving than me.
Thank you for your help.
Faithnhope

[Robert R. Higby]

Dear Faithnhope:

Your latest post states this about Rev. 20:14-15:

"I am hoping this means that all who choose not to accept salvation through Jesus will then be destroyed and not continue to suffer. I hurt when I think of the concept of hell and I know God is much more loving than me."

Please accept and consider these observations in prayer:

1. If the biblical doctrine of election in Christ is to be believed at all, no one 'chooses' not to accept salvation through Jesus. Study the parable of the soils in Mark 4 and consider the prophecy of Christ against them (vs. 11-20). When eternal spirits like that of Judas and Satan laugh at the gospel of grace, they are only acting in harmony with their devilish nature which loves eternal sin. They are not 'choosing' in the presence of a genuine conviction of Christ's love and grace.

2. Did the Psalmist 'hurt' when he proclaimed, 'Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies." (Psalm 139:21,22) The Lord does not want us to sympathize with the devil or the devil's phantom human children. If someone ultimately ends up as the Lord's enemy in eternity, that eternal spirit is also our enemy--if we love Christ and believe the gospel!

3. Are you willing to accept the fact that God does not savingly love everyone? He does good to all persons, showing a level of compassion, but is saving love (chesed in Hebrew) exercised toward all? There are purposes of God opposite of salvation. If there is to be an eternal salvation in Christ, of elect human beings who are totally unworthy in and of themselves, there is also to be an eternal damnation of devils--who are appointed to be blinded to the truth and therefore laugh at the gospel of grace.

God is much more loving than us! That is why he exercises discriminating love toward his elect children, a type of love which we are can only begin to exercise in this life. We are not permitted to exercise a spirit of condemnation toward the mass of humanity. Since we have no final word on who the elect of God are, we must proclaim the gospel to all mankind and pray for the salvation of many!

Please don't misunderstand me. If you are one of God's children in Christ through faith in his blood, I believe that there is great comfort and hope for you! You need have no worries about the sufferings of the damned! God will deal with them in perfect fairness--and magnify his glory through them as well as yourself (although in a radically different way!). Instead of worrying about the sufferings of the damned (a totally needless concern and one unworthy of saints), focus on what can be done to proclaim the true gospel to more persons! That is our real joy and liberation.

All devils are the same, whether spirit or human. Those who laugh at the gospel are commiting the same eternal sin as the devil. Are you 'hurting' over his destiny? We humans tend to have sympathy for our own, however, we must think and worship 'beyond the curtain' to comprehend God's eternal purposes in Christ.

God will be glorified in the reprobation of a large portion of humanity. The saints will actually celebrate the downfall and punishment of those who oppose Christ and work to seduce others against him (Rev. 19:3), as did the Psalmist. They will not mourn over them but laugh at their calamity! The unbelievers are cowards and devils--and God's victory over them is the same as his dominion over the person and works of Satan.

In the power and spirit of the deceased chairman,

[Faithnhope]

Bill,
Thank you for your answer. But what do you think about the words second death? What does that mean? It sounds like we die once in the body and if not saved and in Hell then Hell is thrown into the lake of fire to a second death. Death of the soul? I know the soul is eternal but God can do anything with his creation.
When ever I ask this question, I seem to get the back a confused look even from pastors. It is in the Bible why doesn't anyone study this? Maybe God is trying to tell us he will destroy hell and all that are in it? Why not? We are all searching for the truth and when I ask God this question I don't feel like he is telling me that hell goes on for eternity. I get a peacefulness when I think of it being destroyed. We delete and throw out the garbabe we don't keep it around to sit and rot.
Is that too descriptive?
Well I guess maybe I will need to let this go since no one seems to know.
Thank you for listening.
Faith

[Robert R. Higby]

Dear Faithnhope,

I appreciate your response. It shows that you are thinking about the implications of the gospel and the Word. I want you thinking!

Your questions deserve an answer and I am composing what will hopefully be a worthy response to your questions. However, it will possibly take me a day (or 2 or 3?). I have been through this issue in my personal experience and struggled with it far more than most for many years.

In the eternal gospel of grace in Christ without works,

[disciple]

Originally posted by Faithnhope
Thank you for your answer. But what do you think about the words second death? What does that mean? It sounds like we die once in the body and if not saved and in Hell then Hell is thrown into the lake of fire to a second death. Death of the soul? I know the soul is eternal but God can do anything with his creation.

i see what you're driving at but taking death as separation (as opposed to ceasing to exist or cessation of life function), i've always understood second death to refer to eternal spiritual death (i.e., eternal separation from God), the first death being your physical death (i.e., separation of spirit from body).

[Robert R. Higby]

Dear Faithnhope,

I will respond to aspects of your post separately.

"Thank you for your answer. But what do you think about the words second death? What does that mean? It sounds like we die once in the body and if not saved and in Hell then Hell is thrown into the lake of fire to a second death. Death of the soul? I know the soul is eternal but God can do anything with his creation.”

If the first death did not render the spirits of wicked men unconscious, why would the second and eternal death do this? The fact that Hades forever ends and is swallowed up in the lake of fire--this determines nothing about what happens to eternal spirits who have already been resurrected out of Hades and thrown separately into the lake. Hades is temporal by its very nature, man (as well as the unholy demonic trinity thrown into the same lake in Rev. 20:10) is created for eternal existence. The relationship of wicked man to the eternal lake of fire is exactly like that of the angels that sinned, not like that of anything temporal (Hades and the present physical world). Technically, even the present world will not be annihilated in God’s fiery presence at the final judgment--but renovated into an eternal and deathless material paradise!

You are certainly right that God can do anything with his creation, including annihilate it forever. But if God elected to create man as an eternal spirit, uniquely bearing the image of God with all the eternal risks of knowing good and evil, then God determined that man would have eternal existence and never be annihilated.

“When ever I ask this question, I seem to get the back a confused look even from pastors. It is in the Bible why doesn't anyone study this?" Maybe God is trying to tell us he will destroy hell and all that are in it? Why not?”

You are so right! Expositors who profess to know and expound the Word are not willing to 'stretch' and comprehend the most difficult implications of it. So they just parrot the same pat answers that they have heard in seminary or from some 'wise sage.'

This does not seem confusing for me today. Others can speak for themselves. I have studied it intensely for the last 22 years and did really struggle back and forth with it for a while. I’m aware of all the controversy since the publication of Fudge’s conditionalist book in 1982, the prominent names that have followed in his thinking, and the legion of traditional responses! I am neither a traditionalist nor a conditionalist.

The key word above is ‘maybe.’ God does not damn those who think wrong thoughts about these things, whatever is right. The truth one must believe to have eternal life is the works-free gospel of Jesus Christ, not eternal punishment. But I have given you my thoughts.

Neither the conditionalist nor the traditionalist has recovered the biblical doctrine of judgment, in my estimation. Both view hell as a tragedy that God does not want--but must nonetheless carry out to honor the just demands of the eternal law he created to 'defend' his honor (Anselm). His ‘honor’ is magnified above his glory. It is almost as if the plan of salvation in God’s mind is a response to the already existing reality of hell. It is sort of like God expressing a sentiment like this: “I wish that I could save everybody, how can I keep the mass of humanity from going into these tortures I’ve created? Horror of horrors, I can’t! The eternal law I created to preserve my honor as God says that even one sin deserves infinite and eternal torture! But although this fate must be experienced by some to preserve my honor as infinite and eternal God, I will come and suffer the infinite penalty of hell in the place of SOME eternal souls because I’m so merciful.” I realize that this is inadequate and seemingly foolish-- but hopefully it gives you a better picture of my ideas than mere reasoning!

The Hebrew concept of judgment is vindicatory. God and his saints will celebrate victory over all evil with great rejoicing and triumph! The book of Revelation has the same spirit. The downfall and punishment of evildoers takes place to the reward, vindication, joy, and humor of God and the saints--not to their sorrow and horror. Whatever hell is, it is not the Manichaean and stoic place of Islam, Medieval theology, and Protestant orthodoxy. The doctrine needs reformed, however, final extinction is not the answer.

“We are all searching for the truth and when I ask God this question I don't feel like he is telling me that hell goes on for eternity. I get a peacefulness when I think of it being destroyed. We delete and throw out the garbage we don't keep it around to sit and rot.”

Our own feelings of peace are not necessarily the final word. What we would do in OUR ideas of wisdom and right is not a barometer or guarantee of what God has determined to do in HIS infinite wisdom to magnify his glory! If he has created all angelic and human spirits with eternal existence, he plans to glorify himself through every one of those eternal beings. Yes, as alive and conscious! Some glorifying him in their salvation through Christ (elect humans), others by never sinning at all (elect angels), still others as devils with no possibility of salvation. The unbelievers vindicate the Word of God in their eternal unbelief and cowardice--in spite of the overwhelming evidence of their error.

“Is that too descriptive?”

No, I’ll read and contemplate anything!

“Thank you for listening.”

Thank you for listening.

In the spirit, power, and tradition of the deceased chairman,

[Faithnhope]

Thank you for taking the time to assist me with this.
I appreciate your insight and knowledge.
Faith