Harald,
Do you also believe that the Church with the power of the Holy Sprit will ultimately be able to overcome the Antichrist and the Whore of Babylon? If so you are a certified postmill historicist welcome to the club. I think there are about 2 of us.
Tomas how about the Apostle Paul who died and went to be with the Lord and how about all the Elect since who have died and gone to be with the Lord who with us make up the Bride? where they mature. Salvation is not dependent on conditions in time that we have to meet.If some one says a date for the return of Christ we know they are in error, but if someone says he wont return in a certain period of time they too are equally in error.There is an exact time for the return of the Lord . Infact the bible tells of a falling away that comes first..Ivor Thomas..Originally Posted by tomas1
tomas. I have not thought about it as you put it. I believe the papal Antichrist dynasty will be overthrown by God in His own time, and Babylon the whore church (not only Romanism) will also be overthrown by God. I have not ever thought the saints of God would help God out in this. But whether there will be a literal 1000 year visible reign of Christ on earth with the saints I am not sure right now. I wish I knew which is the right interpretation, the literal or the non literal. I guess I have to study eschatology more so as to arrive at the truth of the matter.
Harald
Ivor Thomas. I believe that just before Christ returns to earth for the execution of judgment on the ungodly world and people conditions will be quite as when Noah was about preaching righteousness. Christ Himself asked whether He the Son of man will find the faith on earth when He returns. The answer is most likely negative. He will not find the Christian religion in a blossoming condition on earth as some imagine, but apostasy darker and deeper than ever, and a small faithful remnant who keep the faith of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit. And these are likely to be quite scattered, and not much organized and seemingly getting along well as the denominations and sects and churches comprising Babylon are.
Harald
Ivor Thomas says:
how about the Apostle Paul who died and went to be with the Lord and how about all the Elect since who have died and gone to be with the Lord who with us make up the Bride? where they mature.
The Bride is a corporate thing the marriage supper is a corporate thing. Salvation is an individual thing Paul and the elect of the past are with the Lord but they are not in their final state that does not happen till the resurrection and we will experience that event together with them.
If some one says a date for the return of Christ we know they are in error, but if someone says he wont return in a certain period of time they too are equally in error.
Was Paul in error?
1thess 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
Was Jesus in error?
21:8He said, "Watch out that you don't get led astray, for many will come in my name, saying, 'I AM,' and, 'The time is at hand.' Therefore don't follow them. 21:9When you hear of wars and disturbances, don't be terrified, for these things must happen first, but the end won't come immediately."
Harold says.
I believe that just before Christ returns to earth for the execution of judgment on the ungodly world and people conditions will be quite as when Noah was about preaching righteousness.
Me too so do most Postmills.
Most modern postmillenialists would strongly disagree. Are you familiar with the modern reconstructionist movement, with Bahnsen, DeMar, etc? DeMar's biggest gripe seems to be that amillennialism is too pessimistic and therefore we should embrace postmillenialism. These men believe that some country will eventually be Christianized, usually the US or Scotland and that this will usher in the millenial kingdom. A far cry from the days of Noah.I believe that just before Christ returns to earth for the execution of judgment on the ungodly world and people conditions will be quite as when Noah was about preaching righteousness.
Me too so do most Postmills.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Tomas read again what I said because you have totally misunderstood what I said. Paul was not in error, Jesus was not in error, I also said the same as you on Paul and the body the church, But where you are in error is saying Christ will not come because the church is not ready yet and even saying you dont think it will be for a few years. If you would look the very next post to mine Harold made a good post echoing what I Believe. Thanks Ivor Thomas..
Most modern postmillennialists would strongly disagree. Are you familiar with the modern reconstructionist movement, with Bahnsen, DeMar, etc? DeMar's biggest gripe seems to be that amillennialism is too pessimistic and therefore we should embrace postmillenialism. These men believe that some country will eventually be Christianized, usually the US or Scotland and that this will usher in the millenial kingdom. A far cry from the days of Noah.
I meant most Biblical postmillennialists I would not put reconstructionists in that category. I have little in common with Bahnsen and DeMar but as near as I can tell they share with me the view that at the close of the millennial period there will be a major unraveling
REV20:7 And after the thousand years, Satan will be released from his prison, 20:8and he will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 20:9They went up over the breadth of the earth, and surrounded the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. Fire came down out of heaven from God, and devoured them
By Biblical postmils do you mean historicists? I'm just trying to get a grasp on how you are defining this term. Those who adopt a historicist interpretation are very much in the minority. It is the reconstructionists who are causing all kinds of damage in the Reformed church world and even among pentecostals.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Salvation is not dependent on conditions in time that we have to meet.
We all agree on that (I presume) but we are discussing when the consummation of salvation for the entire body of Christ will occur.
If some one says a date for the return of Christ we know they are in error, but if someone says he wont return in a certain period of time they too are equally in error. There is an exact time for the return of the Lord.
I would hope that we all agree on this also. God could finish his purposes with regard to earthly history in a very short period of time. However, the past has not so far demonstrated that he is in a hurry to complete the mystery of the gospel--it demonstrates the exact opposite. So we also have to accept the fact that Christ may not return for thousands of years in the future.
This is not to say that postmillennialism is true in the least! It is just to acknowledge that the ekklesia is still in Babylonian captivity and is only in its early infancy in terms of maturity. The last Reformation changed only a few things and only briefly at that. If we do not renounce sectarianism and promote Reformation based on the gospel alone, God will give us another dark millennium, and another, and another . . .
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Reconstructionism is a new thing Postmillennialism is a very old thing. We don’t lump all premillennialists together with the dispensationalists. So lets not automatically lump balsam together with me me. Here are the some of the main differences as far as I can tell.
1. Reconstructionists are mostly preterists and me along with the old Postmillennialists are mostly historicists.
2. Reconstructionists believe that the old covenant law with the exception of sacrifices is still to be followed. I believe that the standard that applies today is “the law of Christ”
3. Reconstructionists seem to expect a slow painless transition to the rule of the saints. I expect a time of distress and tumult before the nations fall and the beast and false prophet are seized.
4. Reconstructionists expect the majority of the world to become Christians. I think that true Christians will always be in the minority but I think someday in God’s timing they will be a powerful minority ruling with love and justice and not a weak one suffering unjust persecution.
Bump...
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Hi BT and all. I really don't know what you would call my "beliefs" as far as biblical prophecy, as I study it as past, present and future. I study the bible more for knowledge of how the past is always with us and though I have been called a "full preterist", I believe that is the wrong label as I am preterist, historicist and futurist all in one, just a plain Disciple In Christ.[ I know Christadelphians are also "historicists" and I also post on their forum].I would hope that we all agree on this also. God could finish his purposes with regard to earthly history in a very short period of time. However, the past has not so far demonstrated that he is in a hurry to complete the mystery of the gospel--it demonstrates the exact opposite. So we also have to accept the fact that Christ may not return for thousands of years in the future.
This is not to say that postmillennialism is true in the least! It is just to acknowledge that the ekklesia is still in Babylonian captivity and is only in its early infancy in terms of maturity. The last Reformation changed only a few things and only briefly at that. If we do not renounce sectarianism and promote Reformation based on the gospel alone, God will give us another dark millennium, and another, and another . .
A lot of the bible is stated as a "continuous" action and no matter what has been fulfilled, it will always be happening. I look as Jesus as having come, will come and is always coming, so what label do I put on that?For example, Jesus tells the High Priest He will from that day on see Him "coming" on the clouds. Reve 14 shows one like the "Son of Man" on a cloud gathering the elect. I look at that as both past, present and future as Christ is always gathering elects into the Kingdom. Any thoughts on this?Ecclesiastes 1:9 That which has been [is] what will be, That which [is] done is what will be done, And [there is] nothing new under the sun.
Reve 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped[and is always being "reaped"?].
Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on/henceforth (ap arti) you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!
Matthew 26:64 legei <3004> (5719) {SAYS} autw <846> o <3588> {TO HIM} ihsouV <2424> {JESUS,} su <4771> {THOU} eipaV <2036> (5627) {HAST SAID.} plhn <4133> {MOREOVER} legw <3004> (5719) {I SAY} umin <5213> ap <575> {TO YOU,} arti <737> {HENCEFORTH} oyesqe <3700> (5695) {YE SHALL SEE} ton <3588> {THE} uion <5207> tou <3588> {SON} anqrwpou <444> {OF MAN} kaqhmenon <2521> (5740) {SITTING} ek <1537> {AT [THE]} dexiwn <1188> thV <3588> {RIGHT HAND} dunamewV <1411> {OF POWER,} kai <2532> {AND} ercomenon <2064> (5740) {COMING} epi <1909> {ON} twn <3588> {THE} nefelwn <3507> tou <3588> {CLOUDS} ouranou <3772> {OF HEAVEN.}
This implies the religious rulers would NEVER see Him again until THEY say "Blessed is He...." That still holds true for the jews today, as they will not see Jesus until they call upon His name, correct? How can they and others call on Him unless God enables them to call on Him? These are just a very few examples of past, present and future actions on Jesus "coming".
Matt 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat...... 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Matthew 23:38 idou <2400> (5628) {BEHOLD,} afietai <863> (5743) {IS LEFT} umin <5213> o <3588> {TO YOU} oikoV <3624> umwn <5216> {YOUR HOUSE} erhmoV <2048> {DESOLATE;} 39 legw <3004> (5719) gar <1063> {FOR I SAY} umin <5213> {TO YOU,} ou <3756> mh <3361> {IN NO WISE} me <3165> {ME} idhte <1492> (5632) ap <575> {SHALL YE SEE} arti <737> {HENCEFORTH} ewV <2193> an <302> {UNTIL} eiphte <2036> (5632) {YE SAY,} euloghmenoV <2127> (5772) {BLESSED [IS]} o <3588> {HE WHO} ercomenoV <2064> (5740) {COMES} en <1722> {IN [THE]} onomati <3686> {NAME} kuriou <2962> {OF [THE] LORD.}
Last edited by InChristAlways; 07-03-2005 at 11:40 AM.
"There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"
Acts 1:6-8 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."Hi WB. I see no seperate "program" for present day Israel, as it is a country that just practices Judaism.Wild Boar Post 33 Responding to Acts 1 6-8
He already told them several times that they were wrong prior to His crucifixion. It was unnecessary to tell them they were wrong now because He was going to show them in a very dramatic way why they were wrong on Pentecost.
Much seems to hinge on the Romans 11 passage, although this passage should be irrelevant in the current discussion. Many amillenialists such as Riddlebarger see a future restoration of ethnic Israel.
However, I believe it involves a misreading of the text. The text does not say "and then all Israel will be saved." The Greek is very clear it says and so/thus/in this manner all Israel will be saved. In what manner will Israel be saved? In the manner just described.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
This verse is often interpreted to teach that after all the Gentiles come in then the blindness will be removed. However, the verse does not say the blindness will be removed and the construction is often used in Greek in situations where something occurs past the time given or even into eternity.
The section following this is a quote, or rather a compilation of quotes from the OT. Paul uses readings from the LXX and pastes together passages such as Isa. 59:20; 27:9; 59:21 with reminders of Micah 5:2 and probably Jer. 31:31 ff. Since it is a quote he leaves the quotations in the same tense in which he found them. However, this also draws attention to the fact that this continually happening as the elect of ethnic Israel are brought into the kingdom.
Each Israelite experiences the forgiveness of sins at the moment of faith and so it says "And this is my covenant with them whenever I shall take away their sins. Jesus already came out of Zion in regards to His human nature.
The idea of a mass conversion of all of ethnic Israel at the second coming of Christ makes little sense in the light of the rest of Scripture. There is no chance of conversion at the time of the second coming and Paul makes clear early that not all Israel are Israel.
Sola Gratia,
WildBoar
Concerning acts 1 6-8 and fullness of the "Gentiles". Gentiles can also represent "nations". Jesus said upon the coming of the Holy Spirit, they would be His witnesses to the end of the Earth. How does historicism view the 2 witnesses in relation to history?
Curiously, revelation 11 also mentions God sending "2 witnesses" and these witness for "a period of time" and this appears to be a set time to bring in the fullness of the "elect".
One day I was reading thru Matt and came across the passage where seed fell on good ground and it yielded 100-60-30 times and always pondered on why Jesus said it in that way and felt it might be symbolic of a type of times, time and half a time. Another words, untill the fullness of the "Crop" would be "reaped".
Any view on this?
Reve 113 and I will give My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth; 1000-200-60 days.
Matt 13:7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 "But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Last edited by InChristAlways; 07-11-2005 at 12:58 AM.
"There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"
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