Are you saved?

[thepaulinator]

This thread is in regards to eternal security. I have chosen to illustrate my question with a hypothetical situation, and later a sinple question:

Part 1: I am a Christian (at least as far as I know), and I have been "saved" and I believe it as well, "the spirit has testified" it to me.

Analysis 1: You are saved. You are one of the elect. You are going to heaven.

Part 2: A year later, I reject my faith and become apostate. I die in my apostasy.

Analysis 2: You were not actually "truly" saved in the first place. You have always been one of the reprobate. You are going to hell.

If you believe the above analyses are incorrect, stop reading now and tell me why.

If you believe the above analyses to be accurate, then please, read on.

Since analysis 2 is the final analysis/judgement of this person's eternal destination, and because it is accurate, that must mean that the previous analysis, #1, is incorrect and erroneous.

Conclusions:

Unless you are aware of the faith of a person at death, you cannot know wether or not you are elect or reprobate. If I should come to reject Christianity on my deathbed with all of my consciousness, someone who knew this fact would have to conclude I was actually reprobate from the beginning, regardless of my Christian-lived life. Therefore, claiming to be one of the elect with absolute certainty (eternal security) carries at least the possibility for error. If that is the case, it isn't that absolutely certain.

Question 2:

Premise 1:
All men are fallible

Conclusion:
Any doctrine put forth by man is fallible (even those interpreted from scriptue), and therefore contains the possibility for error.

Eternal Security is a doctrine put forth by man (as interpreted from Scripture). As such, this doctrine is fallible, and contains at least the possibility for error.

Eternal Security, from what I understand, is the infallible assurance that you are destined for heaven. This violates two things:

A) Premise 1
Reason---No fallible man can know something to be free from error unless it come from an infallible source, and that man interprets the source infallibly.

B) Conclusion
Reason---Is it possible to have infallible knowledge of something in which men are succeptible to error? In other words, you can't know you are going to heaven apart from the possibility of error, unless the doctrine teaching eternal security is infallible, or you receive DIRECT revelation.

[GraceAmbassador]

Your quest is a relevant one and affords one the opportunity of findind out on which "rock" they stand. Man's interpretation "of or from" Scripture or the promises God made in Christ, by Christ, through Christ and because of Christ..

Every thing we believe is NOT based in pure's man's interpretation based upon Scriptures. Every single one of our beliefs IS what the Scriptures say and NOT interpretation thereof. I know the RCC makes a big deal of the way non RCC folk "interpret" the Bible and anything that disagrees with them it is called "interpretation of and from the Scriptures" and then rendered it right or wrong or fallible or infallible to use your terms, depending on the way such an interpretation threatens or differs their beliefs.

Interpretation of and from the Scriptures is meaningless to answer any relevant question. The promises made by God and His faithfulness is the foundation whereupon we base our hope of heaven and on which we anchor our security. God is faithful to fulfill His promises. God is infallible. God's promises are infallible. The Sacrifice provided by Him, CHRIST, is sufficient and infallible and it satisfied Him fully.

On Christ the SOLID ROCK I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand

Thanks!

Milt

[thepaulinator]

I appreciate your reply, Milt. Truly, thank you.

I agree with all of the following.

God is faithful to fulfill His promises. God is infallible. God's promises are infallible. The Sacrifice provided by Him, CHRIST, is sufficient and infallible and it satisfied Him fully.

That isn't exactly what I was getting at. But I agree nonetheless =).

Your quest is a relevant one and affords one the opportunity of findind out on which "rock" they stand. Man's interpretation "of or from" Scripture or the promises God made in Christ, by Christ, through Christ and because of Christ..

I wasn't exactly pointing out the interpretation of scripture as the main idea of my post, and I apologize for sidetracking myself. Let me try again.

Man believes he was saved.
Man later becomes apostate and dies in apostasy.
You say he was never REALLY saved in the first place.

If that man was erred in believing he was saved, why is it that you are totally free from that same error? I'm sure when the hypothetical man was "saved", he had God's infallible promise in mind. All I would like to know is, how is it that you are so infallibly sure (by which I mean you are totally certain) you were truly saved, and will not end up like the hypothetical man? How is it that you know you are not wrong in saying you are of the elect, while this man was (aside from the fact that you are currently not in apostasy )? This is the clarification I need.

[GraceAmbassador]

Originally posted by ThePaulinatorIf that man was erred in believing he was saved, why is it that you are totally free from that same error? I'm sure when the hypothetical man was "saved", he had God's infallible promise in mind. All I would like to know is, how is it that you are so infallibly sure (by which I mean you are totally certain) you were truly saved, and will not end up like the hypothetical man? How is it that you know you are not wrong in saying you are of the elect, while this man was (aside from the fact that you are currently not in apostasy )? This is the clarification I need.

Our security does not depend on our capability of "maintaining our beliefs". I believe the question to your answer is the same as the one I gave you before. God is the preserving factor. God is THE PRESERVATOR (good name for a movie). I suggest all of us to study about the issue of "apostasy". 1 John 2:19 says who apostates that drifted so far as to become "antichrists", did so because they were not saved anyway. One may be an apostate from a religious system but I doubt anyone can "apostate" from God if one has ever been of God. God will preserve them or make them persevere.

How is it that you know you are not wrong in saying you are of the elect, while this man was (aside from the fact that you are currently not in apostasy )? This is the clarification I need.[/

This second part of your question can be answered by declaring our total dependence upon God and belief in His promises, which, again goes back to my original answer in the previous post. I don't see any need to go around proclaiming one's election or declaring "I am an elect" and I do not recall any command or even a suggestion in the Bible that we go around proclaiming such a thing. As a matter of fact, as a rule, people who go around making claims about their stance in God, based upon something that they feel about themselves, are likely the ones you assume will eventually backslide into apostasy.

Now, probably, using the Bible I will be able to contribute to a possible answer to your questions: The parable of the Prodigal son. One of the richest teachings of Jesus (if there is any that is not as rich) because it tells us of:

1. One who was a son with an inheritance guaranteed
2. One who misued his heir status and departed from the Father
3. One who backslid into a world apart from the Father squandering his inheritance to the point of living as if he was not an heir
4. One who decided to return home declaring no longer to be worthy of being called a son by the Father
5. One who encountered His Father by the wayside, waiting for him
6. One who received the family ring and new robes
7. One who was cleaned by the Father before being reintroduced to the family so his dirty ways would not be exposed
8. One who was dressed by the Father before being reintroduced to the family
9. One of whom the Father wanted all to rejoice.

He was a son before (elect); he backslid; he returned; he thought no longer to be a son; he was received as a son as if he'd never left.

All of the above was guaranteed by the Father.

Using your words and applying it to the parable: He knew he was a son (elect) when he was not in apostasy; He thought he was no longer a son when in apostasy; He was received as a son even as an apostate. In the interval, between his departure and his repentance, THE FATHER was along the way waiting for his return. The Father was the guarantor and the sustainer of his sonship (election).

Whether we know or not that we are sons of God (elect), it is up to the Father. His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His sons. That makes us return to Him as the mystical relationship of the Prodigal son and his Father made him return to him in repentance. The Father will draw back His sons (elect)! I believe you would agree with me that no religious stance, appearance nor practice can be proof above and beyond shadow of doubt that one is an elect. It is only the witness of the Holy Spirit and is the Father who predestinates us, calls us, justifies us, and glorifies us.

I hope I answered your questions.

Milt

[thepaulinator]

I hope I answered your questions.

Indeed you did, and again thank you. Now I have more, if you please =).But first, I would like to say amen to the following:

God is the preserving factor. God is THE PRESERVATOR (good name for a movie).

In no way do I disagree with this. However, when a person says, "I am saved, and always will be", they are implying that they know with absolute certainty that they are the elect, wether or not they use that exact terminology. In other words, when they say such a thing, they imply they are not reprobate.

I suggest all of us to study about the issue of "apostasy". 1 John 2:19 says who apostates that drifted so far as to become "antichrists", did so because they were not saved anyway. One may be an apostate from a religious system but I doubt anyone can "apostate" from God if one has ever been of God. God will preserve them or make them persevere.

I will consider that verse and pray about it. I agree with the last sentence. However, I disagree with the idea that you can know wether God has chosen to persevere you, or has chosen against it, with absolute certainty.

I don't see any need to go around proclaiming one's election or declaring "I am an elect" and I do not recall any command or even a suggestion in the Bible that we go around proclaiming such a thing

I agree, which is why the question, "are you saved?" which is commonly used tends to bother me (maybe cause I'm not truly saved ).

As a matter of fact, as a rule, people who go around making claims about their stance in God, based upon something that they feel about themselves, are likely the ones you assume will eventually backslide into apostasy.

Precisely. In fact, 1 Corinthians 10:12:

"12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"

He was a son before (elect); he backslid; he returned; he thought no longer to be a son; he was received as a son as if he'd never left.

All of the above was guaranteed by the Father.

Here is the one action that sets the prodigal son apart from the man in my scenario...

"he returned..."

Had the son not returned to the father, he would not have been received as a son.In the parable he does, and it is beautiful and is what I hope happens to me. The problem is, I don't know with absolute certainty that I will return, I very well could be one of the reprobate (in calvanistic terms).

Using your words and applying it to the parable: He knew he was a son (elect) when he was not in apostasy; He thought he was no longer a son when in apostasy; He was received as a son even as an apostate. In the interval, between his departure and his repentance, THE FATHER was along the way waiting for his return. The Father was the guarantor and the sustainer of his sonship (election).

Nicely paralleled. Again, we know from the story that he was truly a son (elect), because we know the ENTIRE story. We know the ending. I do not know the ending of my parable. I could be like the people of John 6:66. I cannot say that I am saved forever, because I don't know the ending.

Whether we know or not that we are sons of God (elect), it is up to the Father.

Amen

I believe you would agree with me that no religious stance, appearance nor practice can be proof above and beyond shadow of doubt that one is an elect

Agreed, labels don't save.

It is only the witness of the Holy Spirit and is the Father who predestinates us, calls us, justifies us, and glorifies us.

I agree. So I guess you are saying it is the witness of the Holy Spirit that lets us know? Is that where the absolute certainty comes from?

A simple question I am also curious on...

If you die in "apostasy" (which by your thoughts just mean never actually being of God, and by mine means actually accepting the truth of God to be truth, and later coming to deny it), is it possible that you are one of the elect?

[tomas1]

Paulinator:
Here is the one action that sets the prodigal son apart from the man in my scenario...

"he returned..."
Had the son not returned to the father, he would not have been received as a son.In the parable he does, and it is beautiful and is what I hope happens to me. The problem is, I don't know with absolute certainty that I will return, I very well could be one of the reprobate (in calvanistic terms).

The prodigal son was still a son while he was in the pigpen. His father just did not have the ability to bring him back home. Our Father can and does bring us back. He promised us as much.

[wildboar]

The purpose of the parable of the prodigal son gets lost if it is analyzed in such a way. We are not to deduce that because he is said to be a son in the parable that makes him elect, since it is clear that the prodigal's brother is reprobate or at least unregenerate.

Notice what ocurrs before the parable.

Luke 15:2-32 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, "This Man receives sinners and eats with them." 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying: 4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 "And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' 7 "I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. 8 " Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9 "And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!' 10 "Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." 11 Then He said: "A certain man had two sons. 12 "And the younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.' So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 "And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 "But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 "Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 "And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything. 17 "But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 'I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 "and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants." ' 20 "And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.' 22 "But the father said to his servants, 'Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 'And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 'for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry. 25 "Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 "So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 "And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.' 28 "But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 "So he answered and said to his father, 'Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 'But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.' 31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 'It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.' "

Both the sons and the 100 sheep represent those who are in the church. The lost sheep and the lost brother are those who fall into great sin but God brings them to repentance. The ninety-nine are the self-righteous who see no need for repentance, in this case the Pharisees. That is why Jesus says:

"I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance."

After all, everyone needs repentance. The difference is between those who know they do and those who have convinced themselves that they don't. That is why elsewhere in a similar situation the Scriptures say:

Matthew 9:11-13 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" 12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

[Jason777]

Our security does not depend on our capability of "maintaining our beliefs". I believe the question to your answer is the same as the one I gave you before. God is the preserving factor. God is THE PRESERVATOR (good name for a movie). I suggest all of us to study about the issue of "apostasy". 1 John 2:19 says who apostates that drifted so far as to become "antichrists", did so because they were not saved anyway. One may be an apostate from a religious system but I doubt anyone can "apostate" from God if one has ever been of God. God will preserve them or make them persevere.


This second part of your question can be answered by declaring our total dependence upon God and belief in His promises, which, again goes back to my original answer in the previous post. I don't see any need to go around proclaiming one's election or declaring "I am an elect" and I do not recall any command or even a suggestion in the Bible that we go around proclaiming such a thing. As a matter of fact, as a rule, people who go around making claims about their stance in God, based upon something that they feel about themselves, are likely the ones you assume will eventually backslide into apostasy.

Now, probably, using the Bible I will be able to contribute to a possible answer to your questions: The parable of the Prodigal son. One of the richest teachings of Jesus (if there is any that is not as rich) because it tells us of:

1. One who was a son with an inheritance guaranteed
2. One who misued his heir status and departed from the Father
3. One who backslid into a world apart from the Father squandering his inheritance to the point of living as if he was not an heir
4. One who decided to return home declaring no longer to be worthy of being called a son by the Father
5. One who encountered His Father by the wayside, waiting for him
6. One who received the family ring and new robes
7. One who was cleaned by the Father before being reintroduced to the family so his dirty ways would not be exposed
8. One who was dressed by the Father before being reintroduced to the family
9. One of whom the Father wanted all to rejoice.

He was a son before (elect); he backslid; he returned; he thought no longer to be a son; he was received as a son as if he'd never left.

All of the above was guaranteed by the Father.

Using your words and applying it to the parable: He knew he was a son (elect) when he was not in apostasy; He thought he was no longer a son when in apostasy; He was received as a son even as an apostate. In the interval, between his departure and his repentance, THE FATHER was along the way waiting for his return. The Father was the guarantor and the sustainer of his sonship (election).

Whether we know or not that we are sons of God (elect), it is up to the Father. His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His sons. That makes us return to Him as the mystical relationship of the Prodigal son and his Father made him return to him in repentance. The Father will draw back His sons (elect)! I believe you would agree with me that no religious stance, appearance nor practice can be proof above and beyond shadow of doubt that one is an elect. It is only the witness of the Holy Spirit and is the Father who predestinates us, calls us, justifies us, and glorifies us.

I hope I answered your questions.

Milt

Well written, Milt! Thank you.

[Jason777]

The purpose of the parable of the prodigal son gets lost if it is analyzed in such a way. We are not to deduce that because he is said to be a son in the parable that makes him elect, since it is clear that the prodigal's brother is reprobate or at least unregenerate.

WB, I have to disagree with you here. The Father tells the prodigal son's brother that "Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours" (Luke 15:31). That does not sound like an indication of reprobation to me.

[Skeuos Eleos]

I agree, which is why the question, "are you saved?" which is commonly used tends to bother me (maybe cause I'm not truly saved ).

Just wanted to point out that, in my experience, those who use this question tend to come from the modern charismatic movement or "evangelefish" as Milt likes to call them. Most of use here fundamentally disagree with the teaching of such churches which deny the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation and turn the gospel into a cheap 'lifestyle/self-help' choice no different to all the other garbage peddled by a thousand quacks on a hundred TV channels in which we "decide to give Jesus permission to come into our lives" (as long as He doesn't mess with them too much and helps them get richer and pay all their debts, etc) and then, because they have supposedly been "saved", they can live sinful, selfish lives ("changing the grace of God into a license for immorality" - Jude 4). It is a cheap question founded on a cheap, false gospel by false brethren! Asking such a question is nowhere to be found in the bible. In my opinion, people who go around asking strangers this question need to hear the gospel themselves!

On the other hand, Scriptures do exhort us to be careful that we don't fall - as you pointed out. Even when someone has believed with absolute trust and confidence in the Lord Jesus and has known something of the Spirit bearing witness to them, they may later experience the odd moment of doubt as to whether they are truly saved but as Milt said, the Lord will cause them to persevere and the overall tendency will be for them to believe that the Spirit has indeed witnessed to them. But this is not (just) about some mystical experience - the effect of the new life breathed into a believer will bring about change in their lives and, though there may be periods of discouragement, they will generally find themselves always looking to the Lord and rejoicing in the Lord no matter what their circumstances and so, over time, their joyful hope and confidence may grow. Even then though, the Lord may grant them a season of dryness and rebellion, perhaps to remind them that their persevering is all of grace - that no matter what they have learned, no matter how much confidence in the Lord they have come to have - they are kept by Grace, and, hence, to show them that, were it not for that grace, they would just go right back to what they were - as the sow returns to the mud and the dog to its vomit!

Here is the one action that sets the prodigal son apart from the man in my scenario...

"he returned..."

It is of course a parable and so it is not necessary that it portrays all aspects of salvation and so it does not represent what we know to be true from elsewhere in scripture, i.e. that if someone turns to Jesus, it is because the Father 'draws' them. But, as Milt pointed out, this parable does teach us so much and certainly of note is that the son reached the point of absolute humility. Only when his situation became hopeless did he look to His Father. Then, recognising that He didn't deserve anything, he thought he might at least be able to earn some favor from his father. But he didn't understand the love and mercy of his father who so readily forgave his son's rebellion and clearly had no expectation of the son having to earn his forgiveness, but instead immediately restored him to his place as son and heir.

Most high God, humbled to death, "It is finished" was Your dying breath!
O Grace so rich, mercy so free, life breathed into a dead sinner like me!

There's an old Hymn "Blessed Assurance, let it be mine" - I pray that it may be yours!

Martin

[wildboar]

WB, I have to disagree with you here. The Father tells the prodigal son's brother that "Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours" (Luke 15:31). That does not sound like an indication of reprobation to me.

The son was a partaker of the external benefits of the church, however he shows his unregenerate heart by his belief in his own perfect obedience and his lack of love for his brother.

[Jason777]

The son was a partaker of the external benefits of the church, however he shows his unregenerate heart by his belief in his own perfect obedience and his lack of love for his brother.

Granted, he had a great deal of contempt for his brother, and he seems to be touting his own works a bit---but the parable itself doesn't seem to indicate that he was lost. The only way I might accept this was if this person was a veiled reference to the unbelieving Pharisees, who were leaning on their own righteousness instead of Christ's righteousness.

[whs1]

The Paulinator said:

B) Conclusion
Reason---Is it possible to have infallible knowledge of something in which men are succeptible to error? In other words, you can't know you are going to heaven apart from the possibility of error, unless the doctrine teaching eternal security is infallible, or you receive DIRECT revelation.


I just do not know how anyone can know "for sure" or with absolute certainty if they are one of the elect. But before I agree with you; I must admit that I have studied this subject in depth. What I have found is that the words: "Eternal Security" or "Once Saved Always Saved" are incorrect terminology for those who may like to go into heaven and have fire insurance and would walk after the imagination of their own evil hearts and lusts. This still does not erase the facts. The facts of the doctrine of a truly saved, regenerated believer are this: God does all the saving. The correct Scriptural terminology is: "The Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints". This is the Biblical doctrine. Scripture does teach that once God truly saves one of his elect that they SHALL PERSEVERE IN THE FAITH UNTO THE END and THE BELIEVER may or may not actually experience the absolute certainty of full assurance. The Westminster Confession of Faith says:

"

1. "They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved."

2. "This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof."

3. "Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves."

Scriptures:

Psalm 37:28
"For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."
Isaiah 26:12
"LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
Isaiah 51:6,7,8
Isaiah 54:10
Jeremiah 32:40
John 5:24
John 6:35-40
John 10:27-30
John 17:1-26, especially 17:2,9,11,12,15,19,20,21-24.
Romans 5:8-10
Romans 8:1-39, especially 8:9-16, and 8:28-39
1 Cor. 1:7-8
1 Cor. 10:13
Ephesians 1:1-2:10, Especially 1:1, 1:4-6, 1:11, 2:1-10
Ephesians 4:30
Colossians 3:3-4
1 Thessalonians 5:23-4
Hebrews 5:8-9
Hebrews 6:9-20
Hebrews 7:22-28]
Hebrews 8:6-13
Hebrews 9:11-28
Hebrews 10:1-14, especially 10:10,14
Hebrews 12:5-11
Hebrews 13:20-21
1 Peter 1:3-5
1 John 1:1-10, 2:1-6; 3:1-3; 3:14; 3:19-24; 4:1-21; 5:9-15
2 John 5-11
Jude 1, Jude 24-25
Revelation 19:11-16
Revelation 20:11-15
Revelation 21:27
Revelation 22:18-21


I used to run around about 13 years ago saying: "I know I am elect". Shortly after that God withdrew any assurance I seemingly had. Since that, I have been struggling...especially with the possibility that now recently I have thought I was unregenerate because I compromised the gospel...[Or did I?] [This according to Marc Carpenter's 9 statements.] I did.

But now I believe that I do believe and am not compromising the gospel for the sake of any friendship or family member. [I believe that just recently God regenerated me. I just know that "if" someone professes to be a true believer that does not mean anything. However, if someone whom God has genuinely elected...is saved...that person cannot and will not APOSTASIZE!!!
To believe that a true, regenerated, elect person "CAN" fall away is damnable heresy. The Scriptures above militate against and refute that error of Satan.


Preserved in Jesus Christ

Bill

[thepaulinator]

The facts of the doctrine of a truly saved, regenerated believer are this: God does all the saving

I agree

Scripture does teach that once God truly saves one of his elect that they SHALL PERSEVERE IN THE FAITH UNTO THE END and THE BELIEVER may or may not actually experience the absolute certainty of full assurance.

Agreed

However, if someone whom God has genuinely elected...is saved...that person cannot and will not APOSTASIZE!!!

I would say, that person will not die in apostasy, but that might depend on yoru definition of apostasy. For example, one of the elect might fall away for a while, or deny Christ at a time, and then come back to God in repentance, just like the story of the prodigal son. The elect either never fall away to begin with, or they will always return.

To believe that a true, regenerated, elect person "CAN" fall away is damnable heresy

I agree. I never said that was a possibility. All I said is that you cannot know you are elect with absolute certainty. And I think you agree.

[whs1]

Paulinator:

"I agree. I never said that was a possibility. All I said is that you cannot know you are elect with absolute certainty. And I think you agree."


Not really...if these verses are true...then we can know with certainty.

1 John 5: 9
"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him."



There are other verses that seem to indicate that when God gives us the grace to obey Him [as the true elect]; we can know we are elect.

In contrast to your view.

Bill

[thepaulinator]

Not really...if these verses are true...then we can know with certainty.

Then this statement of yours mislead me...

I just do not know how anyone can know "for sure" or with absolute certainty if they are one of the elect.

Both the sons and the 100 sheep represent those who are in the church. The lost sheep and the lost brother are those who fall into great sin but God brings them to repentance.

Is it possible for one of them to fall into "great sin", and not come to repentance?

You might say, "No, the elect always come back in repenatnce". And I would say, "of course they would, they are elect, that is like saying the same thing twice." My question is not wether or not the elect will be the elect, my question is "can you know with abosolute certainty you are elect and will always come back in repentance?" I say that you cannot know with absolute certainty, or know without the possibility of error, unless it be directly revealed to you by God himself. Now, I can't say wether or not this might have happened to you, because it is purely a porsonal thing, GOd did not directly reveal to me that He directly revealed it to you. So I have no business telling someone they are NOT elect. The only person I could tell they are elect would be myself, and that would only be possible if God himself revealed it to me. In otherwords, to claim to be a member of the elect would be an infallible statement, if true, and a fallible statement if false.

Now, it might be agreed that not everyone who has claimed to be "saved" or claimed to be "elect" were actually such. A great many have possibly claimed such a thing, and were in error, but at the same time, truly believing it. If this is so, I just would like to know what makes you, personally, free from the same such error.

[whs1]

Because after having read and believed and received these words of God...

" 1 John 1
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen"



God has shown me [not "directly"] but has revealed this unto me:

1. That I believe that Jesus is the Christ.
2. That I love Jesus the Christ and all those who are begotten of him.
3. That I keep His commandments.
4. That I believe on the Son of God.
5. That I believe I have the Son of God.
6. That I believe on the name of the Son of God.
7. That I have asked the petitions according to God's will and received them; thereby knowing he hath heard me.
8. That I have kept myself from idols...{not perfectly nor have I "kept his commandments" perfectly...but that is not what the verses mean.}
To keep is not to be "sinless" but obey and repent according to 1 John 1:6-10

What I meant by

"" just do not know how anyone can know "for sure" or with absolute certainty if they are one of the elect. But before I agree with you;""

is that I cannot peer into the book of life. But I do believe that God can and does "reveal" [as far as his word and no further] to us that "we" {the elect} can know for certain that we are one of the elect of God only according to what God has revealed in his word and that only...


Bill

[thepaulinator]

1. That I believe that Jesus is the Christ.
2. That I love Jesus the Christ and all those who are begotten of him.
3. That I keep His commandments.
4. That I believe on the Son of God.
5. That I believe I have the Son of God.
6. That I believe on the name of the Son of God.
7. That I have asked the petitions according to God's will and received them; thereby knowing he hath heard me.
8. That I have kept myself from idols...{not perfectly nor have I "kept his commandments" perfectly...but that is not what the verses mean.}
To keep is not to be "sinless" but obey and repent according to 1 John 1:6

Does this match the list of essentials you provided on "The Essentials" thread?

But I do believe that God can and does "reveal" [as far as his word and no further] to us that "we" {the elect} can know for certain that we are one of the elect of God only according to what God has revealed in his word and that only

So would you say that beyond any possible shadow of a doubt, you believe you are destined to heaven?

[whs1]

"So would you say that beyond any possible shadow of a doubt, you believe you are destined to heaven?"

Not necessarily. Because God's elect do not always have that perfect 'full assurance'.

Isaiah 50:10 "Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.
11 Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow."

WCF:


"

1. "They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved."

2. "This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof."

3. "Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves."

I can say that this [prevalency of corruption remaining in them] has and is happening to me now...so, no, I do have shadows and doubts that cloud my absolute certainty. But I have had glimpses of that "blessed assurance" that still make me at least 33% certain that I am destined to heaven. I have learned that if I think I stand, to take heed lest I fall. But if you will notice: all our "assurance" is subjective. It is when we look to Christ and his righteousness alone that we see the infallibility of God's covenant promises to us specifically when [in some measure] God imparts the witness of His Holy Spirit: that we can and do know we are his.

Whether we "know" we are the elect is not God's primary means for us being blessed. God's glory [which includes chastisement and other frowning providences] is the primary purpose God has in electing those whom he has chosen unto salvation. In Job's case, do you think that his assurance was shaken??? NO! But others in Scripture were different. [Look at King David] God works differently with different people. I have way too much sin in my life to say that I believe that I have absolute certainty about my election. But whether or not I "feel" elect or not or think that I am does not mean that that changes God's choice.


Do you really think God is like you say "paulinator"? That he withholds any assurance from any of his elect??? I think that that is a warped picture of God. God does not operate that way. If God has elected some...you are saying he wouldn't let them know??? Why not? If God were like that...that wouldn't accord with half the verses I posted earlier. Those verses say that the elect can and do get to know if they are elected. The apostle Paul knew that some were in the book of life:Philippians 4:3"

"And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life."

So how could you say that it is impossible without direct revelation. We have no evidence that the apostle had direct revelation about these persons who were in the book of life...although he could have.


To answer your question: Yes, I believe that a true elect person can and does have assurance of their salvation at the times when God is pleased to give that assurance.

Bill

[thepaulinator]

Not necessarily. Because God's elect do not always have that perfect 'full assurance'.

I agree

But I have had glimpses of that "blessed assurance" that still make me at least 33% certain that I am destined to heaven

I would probably give myself the same assurance. However, not everyone on this board does, as far as I understand.

It is when we look to Christ and his righteousness alone that we see the infallibility of God's covenant promises to us specifically when [in some measure] God imparts the witness of His Holy Spirit: that we can and do know we are his

Agreed. I don't think this is the doctrine of Eternal Security that I am opposing.

But whether or not I "feel" elect or not or think that I am does not mean that that changes God's choice.

I couldn't agree more.

That he withholds any assurance from any of his elect???

Not at all, I said he witholds abosolute infallible assurance that can never be doubted from most of the elect.

If God has elected some...you are saying he wouldn't let them know???

Of course He does, but not everyone who has thought that He has let them know has been correct about it. Most who have thought themselves to be elect were actually not, correct me if I'm wrong.

So how could you say that it is impossible without direct revelation.

I said it is impossible to know infallibly, without the possibility of error, unless it is revealed directly. I think actual cases show that. As I have said, many who have thought themselves to be elect, actually were not.

Yes, I believe that a true elect person can and does have assurance of their salvation at the times when God is pleased to give that assurance.

I agree. Would it bother you if I told you the Roman Catholic Church taught quite similar to that?