Are you saved?

[whs1]

No, but I don't subscribe to some of the reformation reaction to the Roman Catholic doctrine of no assurance. I don't exactly know that the Roman Catholic Doctrine is that similar to the doctrine I hold...they are quite the opposite.

They believe you cannot have any assurance. Even if they say that you can they take it back.

Canon 16. If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation,[120] let him be anathema.

No, I disagree with this. Because they twist the true teaching of the Bible and then burn up a straw man. [Extreme reaction of Calvin and others in Refomation.]

At the same time they do not have any assurance of their salvation like the Bible says you can have.

No, the doctrine I believe the Bible teaches is not close to the Roman Catholic Doctrine. They reject Justification by faith alone. That gets rid of any assurance at all.

[thepaulinator]

They believe you cannot have any assurance. Even if they say that you can they take it back.

Canon 16. If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation,[120] let him be anathema.

This only condemns teh idea I have been disagreeing with, absolute and infallible certainty of being elect. It does not condemn any certainty...

"No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself."

Council of Trent, Ch XII, Decree on Justification

"So also as regards the gift of perseverance, of which it is written, He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved:-which gift cannot be derived from any other but Him, who is able to establish him who standeth that he stand perseveringly, and to restore him who falleth:-let no one herein promise himself any thing as certain with an absolute certainty; though all ought to place and repose a most firm hope in God's help. For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace, as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish. Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations, in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God's grace, obedient to the Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live."

Council of Trent, Decree on Justifictaion, Ch XIII

Assurance to the Roman Catholic is hope. We do not pain ourselves in not knowing with absolute certainty our place among the elect, but we place all our hope in God, that we might be endowed with the gift of perseverence. In attempts to bring the two ideas together...

It does not matter what a certain person believes his eternal destination to be, that belief does not change the election of God. If a person believes himself to be of the elect, it does not make him so. So rather than presume to be of the elect aside from direct revelation, hope and pray that God might grant you the gift of perseverence, and if he doesn't, it is within his Godly being to deny such a request.

[whs1]

paulinator,

Are you Roman Catholic?

[GraceAmbassador]

Yes he is bill. A very reasonable one.

[GraceAmbassador]

"No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself."

Dear Paulinator:

The Council of Trent sought after "special revelation". We stick to the Bible and there have been plenty of scriptures posted in this thread that shows that the Bible does give us such assurance.

There could be an argument that "once saved, always saved" a phrase attributed to Moody, if I am correct is an exaggeration, from the doctrine of election and assurance of the believer. I believe and teach that "once saved always saved" is not the same as election or assurance and in fact cheapens the doctrine of election and assurance. Would the Council of Trent have said in the article quoted "no one can say of himself, in his own power that he can maintain his salvation by any act of self righteousness, apart from the keeping and drawing of the Holy Spirit" they would have been closer to the biblical truth. I think the article above is a bit shallow to debunk either assurance of election and also assurance of salvation. It was put in there for the sole purpose of maintaining people's dependence upon the "mother church".

Also, there are very clear scriptures that state with no need for elaborate interpretations that Jesus will in in no way cast out those who come to Him; that those whom the Father gives to Him will be saved (unconditionally); and John says that "whoever is of God does not sin (does not say does not commit sins--plural) but does not ultimately sin to be irreparably separated from God or condemned. As such, the article quoted above is at variance with the Bible. This promises assures me of my Salvation. I trust His word more than my feelings and more than my knowledge.

Also, God plants faith in the heart of the elect. Not merely hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. This means, faith is a title deed of of things that you hope for. If you have the faith given by God to the elect, your hope already is an eternal possession according to Hebrews 11. The author of Hebrews tells us to hold fast to these confessions. To confess means to agree with. If God gave me the title deed of the things I hope for; if He says that I will not be cast out; if He says that I will not sin to ultimately be condemned; I say Halleluyah, and agree with him. I confess it. Otherwise, I would make God a liar. (This is not the same as the charismatic confession movement, just to clarify)

I always appreciate your interest in the things of God!

[thepaulinator]

Yes he is bill. A very reasonable one.

Thank you very much, I can't say enough how thankful I am for all of your kindness on this board. You and all who dialogue with me.

We stick to the Bible and there have been plenty of scriptures posted in this thread that shows that the Bible does give us such assurance.

I see, I think we will get to this later in the post.

I believe and teach that "once saved always saved" is not the same as election or assurance and in fact cheapens the doctrine of election and assurance.

I think I understand you here, that the two are somewhat different. Believing to be elect is much different from believing you are saved and done with everything. However, fundamentally, they are the same concept, with one (elect) being more sound than the other (once saved always saved).

Would the Council of Trent have said in the article quoted "no one can say of himself, in his own power that he can maintain his salvation by any act of self righteousness, apart from the keeping and drawing of the Holy Spirit" they would have been closer to the biblical truth.

Well the Council does say that...

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

I think the article above is a bit shallow to debunk either assurance of election and also assurance of salvation. It was put in there for the sole purpose of maintaining people's dependence upon the "mother church".

Actually, I think it was put in there so the idea would not go to the shallow extreme, "Once Saved Always Saved". The church doesn't teach you can't have any assurance whatsoever that you are elect, it teaches that you yourself cannot have infallible assurance, assurance that is free from error.

Also, there are very clear scriptures that state with no need for elaborate interpretations that Jesus will in in no way cast out those who come to Him; that those whom the Father gives to Him will be saved (unconditionally); and John says that "whoever is of God does not sin (does not say does not commit sins--plural ) but does not ultimately sin to be irreparably separated from God or condemned.

I agree with that, and so does the church concerning predestination. The elect cannot fall away "irreparably".

I trust His word more than my feelings and more than my knowledge.

Agreed.

Also, God plants faith in the heart of the elect. Not merely hope.

I agree. You cannot have Christian hope if you do not have Christian faith.

Ifyou have the faith given by God to the elect, your hope already is an eternal possession according to Hebrews 11.

Here we go, so is everyone who has some kind of faith and hope elect? What must constitute your faith? This might relate to the thread I began entitled "The Essentials".

The author of Hebrews tells us to hold fast to these confessions. To confess means to agree with. If God gave me the title deed of the things I hope for; if He says that I will not be cast out; if He says that I will not sin to ultimately be condemned; I say Halleluyah, and agree with him. I confess it. Otherwise, I would make God a liar. (This is not the same as the charismatic confession movement, just to clarify)

Fair enough. So everyone who has read Hebrews 11 and agreed with it has been elect? This is my misunderstanding. How is it that some people who have faith and hope in their election could possibly NOT be elect, or they didn't "truly" have faith and hope and love. If it was possible for them, why is it not possible with you, or anyone else (again, I am not implying that you don't have true faith or anything, I just want to hear your reasoning for being different).

[GraceAmbassador]

[QUOTE][Here we go, so is everyone who has some kind of faith and hope elect? What must constitute your faith? This might relate to the thread I began entitled "The Essentials"./QUOTE]

No. I am speaking of those whom God has placed faith in their hearts.

I am busy with my own "conflicts" at this point, but I will be happy to answer the follow up question "what must constitute faith" some other time.

In the mean time, I am sure someone else may take this question up in my place. I am being summoned to something not necessarily more pressing than to answer you but a little bit more "unforgiving". You can guess...

Milt

[thepaulinator]

Here we go, so is everyone who has some kind of faith and hope elect? What must constitute your faith? This might relate to the thread I began entitled "The Essentials".

No. I am speaking of those whom God has placed faith in their hearts.

I am busy with my own "conflicts" at this point, but I will be happy to answer the follow up question "what must constitute faith" some other time.

In the mean time, I am sure someone else may take this question up in my place. I am being summoned to something not necessarily more pressing than to answer you but a little bit more "unforgiving". You can guess...

Milt

I appreciate it all, thanks for the time you have taken to share your faith.

[whs1]

Paulinator, you said in an earlier post that

"I agree. Would it bother you if I told you the Roman Catholic Church taught quite similar to that?"
__________________


I want to let you know that the Scriptures do not teach what the church of Rome does. The Scriptures do teach that one of the elect CAN have the infallible assurance that they have the great gift of perseverance unto the end and can be certain that they are predestined unto heaven.
[not all the elect all the time.]

Bill

[bgamall]

Whs1, regarding Law and grace the Catholics and Protestants teach the exact same doctrine. Both teach coveanant theology, and the Protestants were actually defenders of Augustine and of sacralism.

That is why I reject both religions.

[thepaulinator]

I want to let you know that the Scriptures do not teach what the church of Rome does.

Is this to mean in everything, or just as far as predestination is concerned?

The Scriptures do teach that one of the elect CAN have the infallible assurance that they have the great gift of perseverance unto the end and can be certain that they are predestined unto heaven.
[not all the elect all the time.]

Is this teaching of INFALLIBLE assurance perspicuous? If so, why is it not so clear to me?

I never said having absolute assurance is impossible. I believe one CAN know infallibly, but the only way for this to happen is direct revelation from God.

[Skeuos Eleos]

Is this teaching of INFALLIBLE assurance perspicuous? If so, why is it not so clear to me?

It does seem clear to me. There are numerous texts which support it including:

Rom 4:20-21 - Abraham was “fully assured”

Rom 5:3-5 - The reason that hope doesn’t disappoint is that “the love of God has been poured out within our hearts”

Rom 15:5 - God grants perseverance

Rom 15:13 - Clearly any believer may pray that they may “abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit”

1 Cor 2:12-13 - We have received the Holy Spirit who teaches us Spiritual truths so that we may know the things freely given to us by God

2 Cor 1:22 - The Spirit in our hearts is the pledge or guarantee of our sealing – clearly this is not something just for a “special few” and is given so that we may have a confident assurance that we have been “sealed”. A “pledge” that is elusive would be no pledge at all.

Eph 1:13-14 - Again, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance”

Col 2:2 - Paul worked hard that believers may attain a “full assurance of understanding”

1 Thes 1:3-5 - Paul is confident that the Thessalonians had a “steadfastness of hope” and that the gospel had come to them in power and with FULL conviction

2 Thes 2:16 - God is said to have given us “eternal comfort and good hope by grace”

2 Tim 1:12 - Paul is convinced of his own salvation

Heb 3:14 - How could those who are “partakers with Christ”, i.e. all believers, hold fast something they don’t have?

Heb 6:19 - “This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast” – this verse speaks for itself!

Heb 10:22 - Believers may draw near “in full assurance of faith”

Heb 11:1 - “faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”

1 Peter 1:3 - Ours is a living hope – the assurance we have is not something we look back on as a one-time event (like the “sealing”) but is a living day-to-day hope

1 John 2:3-6 - Another way we may know, John tells us, is in our keeping of His commandments. Not that we will keep them perfectly but it will be our desire to do so.

1 John 2:20-21 - We have an anointing through which we know the truth

1 John 3:14-19 - Another way of knowing, of “assuring our hearts before Him” is that we love the brethren

1 John 3:24 - We know by the Spirit that He abides in us

1 John 4:11-13 - We know by our love for the brethren and by the Spirit within us that we abide in Him

1 John 5:1-13 - We have a testimony within ourselves that God has given us eternal life

3 John 12 - John makes clear that it is possible to know that the apostles testimony was true – not just to believe but to KNOW

As regards why it is not so clear to you, one reason, I hesitate to say, could be the converse of 1 Cor 2:12-13 as given in verse 14 - i.e. those who have not received the Holy Spirit will not know the things given by God.
"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

I think that this article on Assurance of Salvation is relevant to this discussion and I'd be interested to know what you make of it?


Martin

[GraceAmbassador]

Martin!

Your post above is a Master Piece! It is in my own personal archives and I will soon use it as an outline for a message.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write it!

I am copying to my own computer...

Milt

[Jason777]

Thank you thank you thank you Martin! A thousand Amens to that!

[Skeuos Eleos]

The following message entitled THE RIGHTEOUS GLAD IN THE LORD by John Warburton may also be helpful:

Excerpt

Whenever He (the Holy Spirit) enters the heart, there is one grand prominent feature of truth into which He leads the soul, and that is a deep sense of its own barrenness, weakness, nothingness, and wretchedness. If a man knows nothing of this, he has no more proof of God dwelling in his heart than a beast has. The moment spiritual light begins to shine on the word and into his heart, the man has such a discovery of what human nature is, and he sees so much of what there is in flesh and blood, that he stands astonished. Instead of seeing any evidence within of his being a righteous man, he says, 'Can ever God dwell here!' He sees himself from head to foot but one mass of sin; and in a knowledge of this he will be led all the days of his life
...
The Holy Spirit dwelling in a righteous soul ... will show him that all his prayers and tears, with all the desires he can create and muster up, can never produce one good thing to merit God's favor ... When a soul is brought here, the blessed Spirit brings him to cry for mercy from the bottom of the heart ... Aye, my friends, when a man is here he will be completely cured from going about to establish his own righteousness. The blessed Spirit does this in order to cut him off from every false refuge, and to bring him to rest entirely on Christ, and His finished salvation, and to show him that it saves to the very uttermost.

Martin

[Skeuos Eleos]

Martin!

Your post above is a Master Piece! It is in my own personal archives and I will soon use it as an outline for a message.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write it!

I am copying to my own computer...

Milt

Thank you thank you thank you Martin! A thousand Amens to that!

Well, it was a blessing to write it but it is even more of a blessing to know that it was helpful to others. Thankyou both for your comments. Of course, all the glory belongs to God! Isn't it marvellous that God can take even a proud heart like mine (much prouder than anyone elses!) and bring me to rejoice that to Him alone belong all thanks and praise! However, I ought also to point out that you appear to be according it more recognition than it is worth for the list is incomplete - most notable amongst the exclusions is Romans 8:16. That was an oversight on my part.

Martin

[harald]

Martin. Just wanted to say that the above sermon by John Warburton is one of the most God-glorifying and soul-edifying sermons I have ever read. Truly he was a man who knew his God, and who was greatly favoured in being made a profitable minister of His Gospel. I fear today there are not many (if any) of his calibre on earth, as if God has withdrawn His power and presence in great measure. His trumpet gave no uncertain sound.


Harald