Don't misunderstand me here ... Billy Graham's way of evangelizing is pathetic ... But I believe Acts chpt 13 as well as Pentecost show the apostles preaching to large crowds.Originally Posted by Darth Gill
Don't misunderstand me here ... Billy Graham's way of evangelizing is pathetic ... But I believe Acts chpt 13 as well as Pentecost show the apostles preaching to large crowds.
If a man asks what must I do to be saved, we can safely assume that the Holy Spirit has quickened him and shown him his sins. Such a question is one of utter hopelessness! Obviously this guy knows something of his depravity! Further, you don't have to preach evangelical repentance. By believing the Gospel, the man has repented of his self-righteousness and sins.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Yes, Acts 13 does show the apostles speaking to large crowds. There is nothing wrong with that at all. But notice Paul didn't say to them, "It is your duty to believe that Jesus died for you!" In fact what I find amazing is what Paul said when the Jews rejected his message of the Gospel....We're not against the preaching of the Gospel to all men. We're against the concept that men are duty-bound to believe that Jesus died for them when it is obviously not so. They are duty-bound to believe that Christ died for sinners. Rejecting this message, as Paul said, men judge themselves to be unworthy of everlasting life which is essentially accountability to the Gospel.
How in the world is the reprobate duty bound to believe that Christ died for him when Christ obviously did not die for him? Men are not duty-bound to believe a lie. Men are duty-bound to believe the truth that Christ died for sinnners - and God in his providence opens the hearts of His elect and grants them the knowledge that the atonement applies to them! He causes them to rejoice in the message as we see in vs. 48, "when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." This opening of the heart/understanding is something men do not have duty of performing - this is a work of God.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Thomas requested a short response to a person's question. That is what I provided, and the response is completely scriptural. I didn't say that it represented the sum of the Gospel - of course not. But it is the right response to the question. That isn't my view - I'm just quoting scripture. Acts 16:
A simple question, from one who by the Spirit was shown his need of salvation, and a simple answer given. Of course the Apostles didn't stop there, and neither would I. In verse 32 we read that "they spake unto him the word of the Lord". So should we." And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house."
Acts 16:27-32
Last edited by Ian Potts; 07-22-2004 at 08:34 AM.
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" John 1:17
www.graceandtruthonline.com
Of course they're not. Nobody here is saying that they are. I've never said such nonsense. I've repeatedly denied it in fact. Perhaps larger print will help.How in the world is the reprobate duty bound to believe that Christ died for him when Christ obviously did not die for him? Men are not duty-bound to believe a lie.
DUTY-FAITH DOES NOT TEACH THAT PEOPLE HAVE THE DUTY TO BELIEVE THAT CHRIST DIED FOR THEIR SINS!!!
You are confusing duty-faith with Billy Graham. The content of duty-faith as stated by Prof. Engelsm and of which I am in whole-hearted agreement once again is:
In the New Testament, all in the audience of the apostles are externally called to repent of their sins and to believe in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God in human flesh, the only Savior from sin and death. The promise is that every one who does so repent and believe will be saved (Acts 13:38-41; 17:30).
The mission audience is not called to believe that Jesus died for them, or that God loves them.
The only way anyone can know that Christ died for him personally is by believing.
The missionary calls men to believe on Christ.
This is the duty of every human who comes under the preaching of the gospel. So much is this true that refusal to believe aggravates the wickedness of those who do not believe (John 3:18).Since it is said that Jesus was preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God there is no reason to think that this repentance and believing are anything but evangelical. There is also no indication that He limited this preaching to "sensible sinners". He often preached to large crowds and I don't see any indication that Jesus told some to leave while he addressed the sensible sinners.
Mark 1:14-15 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Notice that in this instance, Paul and Silas had not had contact with the man's household. According to the anti-duty faith folk it would be wrong to call people whom are not "sensible sinners" to saving faith. However, Paul and Silas extend this promise not just to the "sensible sinner" in front of them but to his family who they have never met.Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
I'm glad we're in agreement that men are not duty bound to believe that Christ died for their sins. But I disagree with you - duty-faith advocates do in fact teach this. In fact I was talking to an individual earlier this morning who said that men were in fact duty bound to believe this - and this person was a die-hard calvinist also that has agreed with you on every point that you've made Charles. I think we're making progress - but thanks again for the clarification of your beliefs. The bold text did help!
Brandan
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Men are duty-bound to believe the Gospel is true (mental assent to the truth) (which is not faith - even the demons believe) - they will be held accountable for rejecting the Gospel... but men are not duty-bound to believe that it applies to them (savingly believe) - as that realization is the gift of FAITH worked in the individual by the Holy Spirit. Wildboar, do you agree with this?
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Brandan:
This is the fallacy of hasty generalization. If I come across someone who is a Calvinist and who is also pro-abortion do I conclude from this that Calvinism teaches that abortion is okay? This is the same error as David Hunt who seeks to make his case by finding poor theologians from the Calvinist camp who make absurd and contradictory statements. You have to be able to separate what duty-faith actually teaches from what some of those who hold to duty-faith teach.But I disagree with you - duty-faith advocates do in fact teach this. In fact I was talking to an individual earlier this morning who said that men were in fact duty bound to believe this - and this person was a die-hard calvinist also that has agreed with you on every point that you've made Charles.</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Well first of all duty-faith is a BAPTIST doctrine. I don't recognize the PRC version of it as I've never encountered it before. I'm speaking of the duty-faith of Andrew Fuller, Charles Spurgeon, etc... What duty-faith are you talking about?
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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You are confusing the result of saving faith with saving faith itself. Saving faith consists of all I have listed above. Belief that Christ died for the person is the direct result of such belief, not the content of which they are duty-bound to believe. Once again, their inability to do so does not lessen their duty.Men are duty-bound to believe the Gospel is true (mental assent to the truth) (which is not faith - even the demons believe) - they will be held accountable for rejecting the Gospel... but men are not duty-bound to believe that it applies to them (savingly believe) - as that realization is the gift of FAITH worked in the individual by the Holy Spirit. Wildboar, do you agree with this?
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Oh great, now I'm being accused of being a BaptistWell first of all duty-faith is a BAPTIST doctrine.I'm not worried though there won't be enough evidence for me to be found guilty...lol Denial of duty-faith is a distinctively Baptist doctrine. That is why the term duty-faith is not found in most reformed writings. The teaching of duty-faith is found in many writings, but the term itself is not. Fuller was certainly in great error. He denied the truth of the atonement and that is what led to his belief in the well-meant offer. His opponents were also in error however. A. W. Pink was a Baptist of course and was able to see the errors on both sides.
I'll post what Engelsma wrote again in large print since it seems to be helpful.What duty-faith are you talking about?
In the New Testament, all in the audience of the apostles are externally called to repent of their sins and to believe in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God in human flesh, the only Savior from sin and death. The promise is that every one who does so repent and believe will be saved (Acts 13:38-41; 17:30).
The mission audience is not called to believe that Jesus died for them, or that God loves them.
The only way anyone can know that Christ died for him personally is by believing.
The missionary calls men to believe on Christ.
This is the duty of every human who comes under the preaching of the gospel. So much is this true that refusal to believe aggravates the wickedness of those who do not believe (John 3:18).
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
If I have not made it clear what the differences are between the historic Reformed position(PRC) and Gill/Huntington on the one side and Fuller on the other you may wish to read the following article: http://www.prca.org/prtj/nov97.html#LawAndGospel
It is a review by Prof. Engelsma of George Ella's book Law & Gospel in the Theology of Andrew Fuller It is not incredibly detailed but it explains the differences briefly.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Charles. I will talk to you using your first name. And whether you or any other reading this post of mine dislikes it or not matters nothing to me. And whether any moderator removes it or not matters nothing to me. You have made the charge that the GS Articles framers were heretical men. I say you have made a hasty and false and unwise judgment. I say you have brought slander against them, yea, false accusation. You know well what Scripture says about such a thing. And by accusing them you also likewise accuse their forebears, men like Philpot, Gadsby, Warburton, Kershaw. You are basically saying these GS Baptist men were heretics, and this means you say they were wolves and deceivers, and reprobates. You say the framers taught a peccable Christ. Your own statement is on record for anyone to see. And by implication you say those which were before the framers, Philpot, Gadsby et.al. were teachers of a peccable Christ because they believed quite the same things as the 1875 AD framers as respects preaching the Gospel. You use language such as "the GS heresy". It is the first time ever, I think, I have seen anyone use such strong language in relation to the GS articles and the GS Baptists of those days. Let me tell you something to think on, if those men who drew the articles, and their forebears who I have named, were godly men, God's children, then you have brougth false accusation and slander against Christ just the same. Whatever one does against one little one who believes in Jesus Christ the Lord the same is done against Jesus Christ Himself. If you be a brother of Christ and those were your brethren in Him then by saying they were heretical men you have done something which Christ condemns in Matthew chapter 5. To call a brother, if indeed they were brethren of you, "heretic" is quite close to "thou fool" (KJV).
In front of me you have the right to voice any opinion you like, but I may not like it. The same applies to other men. Men among men have freedom of religion nowadays. But before God it is not so. Men will be condemned or justified by their words says Christ Jesus. If indeed you have here brought a false accusation, calumny, slander, against some of God's truly called ministers of the Gospel, saying they taught a peccable Christ, using language to the import they were heretics who taught heresy, you are duty bound to wholeheartedly repent towards Almighty God with a repentance that needeth not to be repented of.
I say I have not seen in the 1875 GS articles any saying that Christ was peccable or anything else than absolutely impeccable. Those men had a high view of Christ Jesus no doubt.
Harald
Belief of something is the 'result' of some other belief? I'm afraid I just don't follow what you're saying here. If I believe certain things, those are the things I believe aren't they?
When God brought me to believe in His Son savingly by quickening me and giving me the gift of faith, that faith caused me to believe that Christ died for ME. That was and is my belief.
Could you clarify this statement please as it seems to merge 'natural belief' with 'saving faith' as though the first causes the 2nd eg. We exercise our natural duty to believe the facts of the Gospel and in reward God grants faith to believe in Christ as OUR Saviour. Doesn't sound like the Gospel to me...
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" John 1:17
www.graceandtruthonline.com
WHat I hear you saying here is that belief and understanding that God died for you is a RESULT OF BELIEF of the facts of the Gospel (natural mental assent) to which all men are duty-bound and which you stated earlier are physically able of performing. That sounds like conditionalism to me. My belief that God died for me is not a result of anything I've done.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Thank you Ian for that awesome post. One of the best I've read on this forum. You truly are a blessing to me. I have learned much from you today. WHS-1, I agree with this completely - are you in agreement also?
Brandan
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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Excellent post by BillTwisse in the other thread on duty-faith..
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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i thought we already beat this dead horse over here. i don't want to get into this (as i've already said what i needed to say at the other thread), but i'll just paste an excerpt from one of my posts over there:
the point is, if we just correctly define our terms and agree on those definitions, then i don't think anyone here would have a problem agreeing. as i understand it, no one here who believes that obeying the gospel (belief and repent) is an obligation, command, duty, responsibility, etc. for all human beings is saying that humans have the ability in and of themselves to savingly believe the gospel (at this point i have no idea where the distinction between believing and savingly believing comes from). nor is anyone saying that the gospel is commanding men to be saved (or save themselves or however yall might understand the issues). the simple point is that all human beings without distinction are commanded to certain things in the gospel, irrespective of their election or reprobation (since this is something that we are not aware of and we are the vehicles through which the gospel goes out).
i would also be interesting in hearing of the text where God is the one who believes for us (for that is how i'm understanding the phrase "God is responsible for exercising faith"). in our zeal to have a consistent system (in our understanding) we need to be careful that we are not discarding biblical language and understanding to accomplish this.
Last edited by disciple; 07-22-2004 at 01:02 PM.
When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
--Erasmus
A room without books is a body without soul.
--Cicero
One more point I need to make - I know I sound like a broken record - before I leave this thread for the day... I'll be back this evening.
Faith is NOT A WORK. Faith is a GIFT of God. If you make faith to be a work, you've destroyed the Gospel of Grace. As Luther said, "If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly."
I would modify this and declare, "If any man ascribes anything to salvation, even the very least thing, to something man does or what God does in him, he knows nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly."
That is my position. I will not waiver from that. If anyone dares challenge this Gospel truth, then let him be accursed.
All of you who claim faith is a duty, I take that to mean a work. You may say something else, and you know what you mean in your conscience. I'll refuse to mix the words faith and duty because of the false doctrine it conveys.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
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