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Thread: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

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    Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Thesis 15 of Luther's Heidelberg Disputation with proof and commentary:

    Nor could the free will endure in a state of innocence, much less do good, in an active capacity, but only in its passive capacity.
    Nor could the free will endure in a state of innocence, much less do good, in an active capacity, but only in its passive capacity.

    The Master of the Sentences, quoting Augustine, states, “By these testimonies it is obviously demonstrated that man received a righteous nature and a good will when he was created, and also the help by means of which he could prevail. Otherwise it would appear as though he had not fallen because of his own fault.” He speaks of the active capacity, which is obviously contrary to Augustine’s opinion in his book, Concerning Reprimand and Grace (De Correptione et Gratia), where the latter puts it in this way: “He received the ability to act, if he so willed, but he did not have the will by means of which he could act.” By “ability to act” he understands the passive capacity, and by “will by means of which he could,” the active capacity.

    The second part, however, is sufficiently clarified by the Master in the same distinction.

    The "Master" is Peter Lombard (Lat. Petrus Lombardus), a Scholastic theologian, who wrote his Book of Sentences (Quatuor libri Sententiarum) while he was a professor at the school of Notre Dame (1145-51). This theological work made the name of Peter Lombard famous and earned him the name "Magister Sententiarum," or simply the "Magister." The work is divided into four books that, in a long series of questions, covers the entire body of theological doctrine and unites it in a systematized whole. Lombard's doctrine on sacraments (that a sacrament is both a symbol and a means of grace) was adopted as the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church at the Council of Trent. By the 13th century, the Sentences had become the principal theological text in the universities, and many of the greatest Scholastics wrote commentaries on it. Luther describes the Scholastic view that man must have, of necessity, been created with "good will," with an active capacity for righteousness, otherwise the fall would not have been the fault of man but rather the fault of the Creator of an imperfect man.

    The theologian of the cross holds that even before the fall, free will lacked an active capacity to remain in a state of innocence, but did so only in a passive capacity. Adam and Eve were upheld in their state of innocence not from within but from without. Man has no active capacity to progress -- much less to stand his ground -- in righteousness. The will in an active capacity always moves the creature to be independent of the creator and sets out to create its own goodness apart from God.

    Before the fall, man lived by faith with only a passive capacity for good. He was never meant to stand or operate alone, but to simply be one through whom God works. The active will remained unexpressed, and man lived fully in the will of God.

    After the fall, the active will attempts to claim something for itself and its works before God. The original sin is the sin of disobedience, of unfaithfulness, of an idolatry of reason, of independence from God. Adam strived by the exercise of his will for a knowledge not promised, for something not accorded him by God. Adam's sin was his declaration of independence.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Adam did not have a "free"will! If he did, then we would also. Choice in the garden was simply man doing what he wanted to and knowledge of the one command did not make Adam have a free - choice. The state of the first man Adam was created with a will that was unbiased towards either Good or Evil. Adam only had the Ability to do what he actually did. The Covenant theologians who spin their webs of lies make Adam "Able" to obey. That is simply not true...If Adam were "able" to obey; Adam would have OBEYED.



    Bill
    Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    This one is giving me brain cramps. I am wondering ... if God created Adam with the inability to actively do good why would God call his creation "good"?

    I am also wondering about the fallen vs elect angels. The elect angels it appears to me are incapable of doing evil or sin. Isn't this the state of the elect after physical death?

    Interesting topic. A topic I have yet to explore ... Jan
    It is what it is

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    if God created Adam with the inability to actively do good why would God call his creation "good"?
    All things were passively good. God upheld and sustained Adam and made him good, but Adam could not do good indepently of God.

    I'll let someone else delve into the elect angels topic.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    All things were passively good. God upheld and sustained Adam and made him good, but Adam could not do good indepently of God.
    So are you saying that there has never been anything intrinsically good in man simply by having been created by God? Is the good that God talks of in his creation a reflection of his goodness? i.e. God can say that everything he created is good solely because he is actively sustaining its "goodness"?

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    So are you saying that there has never been anything intrinsically good in man simply by having been created by God? Is the good that God talks of in his creation a reflection of his goodness? i.e. God can say that everything he created is good solely because he is actively sustaining its "goodness"?
    Me and Luther say yes.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Adam was passive in his inclination , was in perfect harmony with his Creator and is surroundings, he did not have to reach out to do good to please his Creator, he had no thought of doing so. All he had was derived from God , who is the source of all that is good. Ivor Thomas.

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Gen 2:18, (KJV), And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

    Praise the Lord!!

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Good point, Scott!

    The fact that the original creation in order of time is called 'good'--this means that it was perfect for its purpose and contained all that God purposed as good. It does not automatically deny that this creation was temporal (not God's FINAL and FIRST creation) and also contained that which is not good. The temporal creation contained the serpent (the devil), the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the principle/potential of sin and death--unless we propose that it was free of dropping leaves, decaying vegetable matter, etc. The death that God threatened upon the specified act of rebellion--it was that of mankind--not that of fish or animals. Adam may very well have hunted and fished in the garden of Eden.

    'Very good' is not ontological perfection. Only the final and first creation at the end of redemptive history will be truly perfect in the absolute sense; containing no tree of knowledge of good and evil, no tempter, and no potential of sin or death for all eternity.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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    Lightbulb Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Thanks Bill,

    Yeah, it kind of strikes me as funny when I hear people stating that the world was "perfect", and everything was "good" at the beginning until Adam came along and slipped on banana peel, or chose to disobey God, or whatever mind-blinding smokescreen they want to front.

    I firmly hold to the position that everything was perfect according to God's plan. Adam was perfect in the sense that he would, providentially, carry out his role flawlessly in God's will for the consummation of history.

    The issue of Adam being passively or actively 'whatever' is nothing but a distraction from the more important issue which is God's plan.

    Who cares if Samson had his eyes plucked out? The main point is it was part of God's will.

    The pope, as it currently seems, is headed to hell. It doesn't matter. God is using this to carry out His Will. My family, my loved ones... Same thing, it doesn't matter. What matters is the coming of Christ and His (and our) reign of the new heavens and new earth. Period.

    Every instance in between "in the beginning" and "Amen" are merely stepping stones leading us down the path that God has chosen.

    Isa 46:9-10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

    I think this topic should be changed to "Man's inability to actively do anything other than percisely what God planned for him to do prior to the fall"; because that's the ultimate reality of the situation.

    Last edited by Ugly_Gaunt_Cow; 08-07-2004 at 09:50 AM.

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Scott:
    I think this topic should be changed to "Man's inability to actively do anything other than percisely what God planned for him to do prior to the fall"; because that's the ultimate reality of the situation.

    Amen to this and all of your post! Other interesting points about God's investiture of man and the world with goodness:

    1. God made mankind upright (Eccl. 7:29). Does this refer to Adam only or mankind in general? The context suggests the latter. For example,

    2. God made the King (kingdom) of Tyre perfect and upright until it was corrupted by evil (Ezek. 28:12-15).

    3. Job (1:1) and others in scripture are called perfect or blameless, even though they are sinners like all the rest.

    4. The present creation is still very good; it declares God's glory even when destructive acts in nature occur (Ps. 19:1-6, 29). So the first sin did not make God's creation 'bad' instead of good.

    Have to go but looking forward to more discussion.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    In point #4 of the previous post I meant all of Psalm 29, not Ps. 19:29 (which does not exist). Sorry for the confusion.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Quote Originally Posted by doctr of grace
    This one is giving me brain cramps. I am wondering ... if God created Adam with the inability to actively do good why would God call his creation "good"?

    I am also wondering about the fallen vs elect angels. The elect angels it appears to me are incapable of doing evil or sin. Isn't this the state of the elect after physical death?

    Interesting topic. A topic I have yet to explore ... Jan
    If Adam did not have free will at his creation, then God lied when he said he created Adam in his image.

    The reason man is not able to believe in God is because man since Adam's fall is born with a fallen body. The flesh is against God. The Spirit is against the flesh (Galatians 5:17). Its the flesh that blinds the soul to God.

    The soul is where volition resides. The flesh oppresses the soul like Communism oppresses its people. It will not allow the soul to know what threatens it. The soul is blind until grace allows it to peek at truth in Christ.

    Grace makes the soul able to see what is spiritual during Gospel hearing. The Gospel is faith being given as a gift, as well as grace. That is why, without God's grace we can never get saved by just faith. For our soul is blinded by the fallen defective flesh. God must suppress the flesh, and allow the soul to make up its own mind. If the soul decides to reject Jesus Christ while under the influence of God's grace, then the flesh is no longer the cause for this rejection. This is no longer sin because the flesh has no say in the matter. When grace makes the soul free to choose, and it rejects Jesus Christ? This now becomes evil, not sin. Jesus paid for our sins. He did not die for evil.

    Adam did not have a fallen nature when he was created. His will was free. He was naive about many things he was oblivious to, but God only entrusted him with one very simple command. Sin did not enter the world when Eve bit. Yet, she was the first sinner! God held Adam accountable. Sin entered the world through him, and he was the second sinner. If it did not depend on volition, Adam would not have been the one held accountable by God. Eve sinned first. God gave the command to Adam.

    Not as confusing as it appears. Space only allows for this much.

    Grace and peace, Gene

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Wildboar ... or others that may want to respond ....

    This idea of the Works Covenant seems to be a bit confusing. I think that God doesn't change his covenant at all ... I mean this notion of the "new" vs the "old". Let me try to explain hahaha ...

    It seems obvious to me that Adam was held to a covenant of obedience. If you do this (obey God) then you will remain in fellowship with God and yes even receive eternal life. Adam was commanded by God to be obedient and therefore granting him the same outcome that we have through Christ.

    The second adam "Christ" accomplished what Adam failed to do. He accomplished the work for us so it is still in a sense a covenant of works is it not? Albeit ... the work that Christ accomplished ... And what is it that is given to those that have the work of Christ applied to them .. i mean IMPUTED to them? ummmm eternal life is it not?

    oh dear I dont think I am explaining myself to well ... but this is what I understand the Westminster standards to be saying .... perhaps this is off topic ... forgive me if I haven't distinctly stated my case.

    Thanks ... Jan

    PS ... BRANDAN ... do you have spell check here? LOL I could use it
    It is what it is

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Quote Originally Posted by doct of grace
    This idea of the Works Covenant seems to be a bit confusing. I think that God doesn't change his covenant at all ... I mean this notion of the "new" vs the "old". Let me try to explain hahaha ...
    The covenant is not new in the sense of being completely unrelated. The covenant is the same as to its essence. But there are differences as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by doct of grace
    If you do this (obey God) then you will remain in fellowship with God and yes even receive eternal life. Adam was commanded by God to be obedient and therefore granting him the same outcome that we have through Christ.
    I don't see how the same outcome follows from the fact that God commanded Adam to be obedient. Once again I don't know exactly what the Westminster Standards were intending to teach so I'm not saying it is necessarily wrong. If I took it very literally I could subscribe to this statement.

    If Adam had not been disobedient he would have continued to live in his present life. There is nothing in the text which suggests that he was in some probationary period and would have attained a heavenly life if he remained obedient. Everytime God commands someone to do something He is not promising them a heavenly life if they do it.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Quote Originally Posted by doctr of grace
    Wildboar ... or others that may want to respond ....

    This idea of the Works Covenant seems to be a bit confusing. I think that God doesn't change his covenant at all ... I mean this notion of the "new" vs the "old". Let me try to explain hahaha ...

    It seems obvious to me that Adam was held to a covenant of obedience. If you do this (obey God) then you will remain in fellowship with God and yes even receive eternal life. Adam was commanded by God to be obedient and therefore granting him the same outcome that we have through Christ.

    The second adam "Christ" accomplished what Adam failed to do. He accomplished the work for us so it is still in a sense a covenant of works is it not? Albeit ... the work that Christ accomplished ... And what is it that is given to those that have the work of Christ applied to them .. i mean IMPUTED to them? ummmm eternal life is it not?

    oh dear I dont think I am explaining myself to well ... but this is what I understand the Westminster standards to be saying .... perhaps this is off topic ... forgive me if I haven't distinctly stated my case.

    Thanks ... Jan

    PS ... BRANDAN ... do you have spell check here? LOL I could use it
    It was not a covenant of works. What was Adam? Disobedient. What was the New Adam, Jesus Christ? Obedient. It was volitional, but God was not seeking works, per se. He was seeking positive volition to remain in status quo. To remain sinless. Adam failed, Jesus was obedient, even to the death on the cross. Volition was the issue. The works were simply automatically the results of obedience. God sought obedience, not works.

    "but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death--
    even death on a cross! "
    (Philippians 2:7-8 niv)

    The issue was not works. The issue was obedience to God's will for his life. Sure there would be works as a result of obedience. But, God sought obedience to his will, not works. Works were only symtomatic of there being obedience. If Adam never ate the fruit he would have lived forever. Would living forever be a work? No. But, it would have been the result of having been obedient.


    "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him." Hebrews 5:7-9 niv

    Is obedience, works? Obedience to avoid evil, works? Obedience would be as follows for us......

    "But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen." 2 Peter 3:18

    What will those obey? To believe in Him. Remember this! He is the Word!

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 niv

    What saves us from the Lake of Fire? Obedience to believe. What saves us from evil in the world after we are saved? Knowing accurately what the Word teaches and intends for us.

    "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers." 1 Timothy 4:16 niv

    These debates are important. For false doctrine will not save us from evil. The belief that God saves us arbitrarily is a dangerous thought. For it wishes to crucify the love of God. Love can not exist without the volition to love.

    Yet, to say that God did not find a way to save us out of our odedience to a command to believe, is to crucify the competence of God. It is to say what is impossible for us to achieve, must also be for God.

    The Lord walked on water. The Lord can make volition the issue, even when we are helpless in ourselves to exercize our voilition. Grace enables the unable. Calvinists fail to see this. They see saving grace as a bully to do God's will, rather than giving us the enablement to do God's will. They see us as not be made able to believe. That God throws a switch and makes us believe.

    What the Father does by grace is make us "able" to believe, or not to believe if we so choose. Calvinists do not see the differentiation between what the soul is, and the flesh. They see both as being inseperately one. Yet the body dies when the soul leaves the body. But, the soul lives when it leaves the body. In the soul is our real life.

    The fallen nature to be found in the body is the culprit when it comes to not being able to believe in Jesus Christ. If grace can (and it can) isolate the soul from the dominance of the fallen flesh, then the soul would be freed up to decide on faith. God already knew how we would choose because of his omniscience. But, his omniscience did not make us to believe. He simply knows we would. Because he knows who will believe, he can decide (sovereignty of God) who are to be co-heirs with Christ, and who are to inherit the promises of Israel in the resurrection. Moses was never promised to be the Bride. He was promised to have the Messiah reign over him. We are given the opportunity to reign WITH Christ. We are his helpmate, his Bride.

    Ours is a home in Heaven. Israel, is a new home on the new earth. John the Baptist died before the Church age began. He was never to become the Bride of Christ. That is why Jesus said about John, the following.

    "I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matthew 11:11 niv

    Our citizenship is Heaven.

    "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ." Philippians 3:20 niv

    Jesus told the Church that we are to have our living quarters in Heaven!


    "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." John 14:3 niv

    Israel was promised a new earth to inherit in their resurrection! We will be resurrected as having the same type glorious body as Jesus has. He is king of kings, and Lord of lords. We will reign with him if we are obedient to grow in grace and truth. But, reign over whom? If the Covenant T crowd here are correct? We are all Church? Whom will we reign over then? All unbelievers? They believe a contradiction.

    We have been chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundations of the world. That means, that out of all God knew would believe, he chose us to be the Bride. How could he do this?

    "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live." Acts 17:26 niv

    God chooses when each one of us is to be born. He could have chosen you to be born during David's lifetime. If he did? Then you were not chosen to be the Bride of Christ. Yet, he chose us who are living now to be in Christ Jesus before the foundations of the world. His sovereign choice. David would have loved to have been the Bride. But, he had no choice in the matter. It was all God's sovereign choice.

    Grace and peace, Gene

  17. #17
    Facilitator GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador's Avatar
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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Genez
    We have been chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundations of the world. That means, that out of all God knew would believe, he chose us to be the Bride. How could he do this?
    You keep repeating this addition to the Bible over and over again without answering any of the challenges made to you in the former thread and in the thread you started and Brandan closed.

    You also said one of the biggest abusurdities I ever heard or read when you said that there is no different applications for the word "world" in the New Testament. You alo insert not only Roman Catholic doctrine but also sound as the Jesus Christ the Scientist Church follower when you blaphemed saying that Jesus "does not save the body but only save the soul" based on Romans 7 which culminates with Romans 8 (showing that you know nothing of context in the Bible).

    Just a prove of your folly: John 3:16 says: "God so loved the world";
    Then in John 2:15 John tells us "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world".
    Is John telling us not to love something that God loves or is John telling us that God is bad because he loves the world?

    You have shown a total lack of knowledge of what Calvinism and theology in a whole is and you want to show yourself credible with your doctrine and state: "Calvinists fail to see this or that".
    Quote Originally Posted by Genez
    The fallen nature to be found in the body is the culprit when it comes to not being able to believe in Jesus Christ. If grace can (and it can) isolate the soul from the dominance of the fallen flesh, then the soul would be freed up to decide on faith. God already knew how we would choose because of his omniscience. But, his omniscience did not make us to believe. He simply knows we would. Because he knows who will believe, he can decide (sovereignty of God) who are to be co-heirs with Christ, and who are to inherit the promises of Israel in the resurrection. Moses was never promised to be the Bride. He was promised to have the Messiah reign over him. We are given the opportunity to reign WITH Christ. We are his helpmate, his Bride.
    Please, give us book, chapter and verse where does it say that Grace has to isolate the soul from the dominance of the fallen flesh. Is then the soul "saved" apart from the flesh? Now this is scientology! "I am not sick... my body is, says a scientologist (or the church of Jesus Christ the Scientist).
    Where does it say in the Bible that the "soul" decides by faith?

    The Bible does say that the "natural man cannot comprehend the things of God" and that the elect has the Mind of Christ.

    Again you say "God know who will believe". Where is that in the Bible?
    That is salvation by infusion and thereby, salvation by works.

    God did not knows who would believe. We are elected as Christ was elected. It is as if God said: I will choose Christ because I see in the future that He will believe...

    You quoted scriptures that speak of salvation as if every time the verb to "save" is in the Bible it means "ETERNAL SALVATION". Another demonstration of your poor understanding of the Bible. I will find out who your pastor is and I will email him your posts and ask him to help you promptly...

    How can your writings, first be believed and credible?
    How can your writings help to answer the question proposed by this thread?

    Can you please answer:

    Is Jesus fully God and fully man?
    Do you believe the trinity?

    I don't want to bring the other thread here, but, judging by what you said there, there is no way you can even be believed as a man who understands the Gospel, not as Milt understands it, but as the Bible proclaims. As a matter of fact, the Bible seem not to be enough for you as you keep adding to it...

    Grace is God knowing that man would be incapable of receiving Him and choosing some from many, according to the pleasure of His will, not according to flesh and blood, nor the will of man but solely His (it is all in the Bible) some to be elect in Christ and send Christ to die exclusively for these.

    If I have a son who is sick and does not know he is sick and I have the remedy for his sickness and he is dying from this sickness and I know he is so perverted and depraved and prone to die that he will refuse my remedy, because I love him, I would find a way to adminster the remedy to him so he can be cured and "praise" me for it. If an earthly father loves a son so much, are the earthly fathers more loving that the Heavenly Father is for adminstering the Eternal Remedy the elect whether they knew it accepted it or not, and then giving them belief to know they had it and praise him for it?

    Please, don't quote me those verses you did that the word "saved" appears but there is no contextual evidence that it is speaking about:

    1 - believing preceding election, and the Holy Spirit Quickening
    2 - believing in ETERNAL SALVATION

    What you propose is that God simply knew that some would believe and chose those. Then why Christ would have to die? That is not Grace. That is merit. Did you merit your salvation because God saw that you were smart enough to accept him?

    Grace is when there is when I am "dead in trespasses and sins". Dead people can't choose. Lazarus could not be in his tomb believing for his resurrection. Neither can we, either in the soul or in the flesh pre-believe for our salvation, nor did God sought such a belief at election. It is unmerited, undeserved. But God quickens me by His Holy Spirit, according to a decree he made exclusively ACCORDING TO THE PLEASURE OF HIS WILL (I am shouting for joy) to choose me to be saved, and that choice was made before the foundation of the world.

    There is no bologna here about "soul being isolated from the flesh" or any other scientology, gnosticism rigmarole inserted, unless those inserted by you!

    (I recommend you the regulars here to read what Genez wrote in the other threads... Search by clicking his name and seraching "posts by Genez" Enjoy!)

    Genez, unfortunately, I know you will not read this with the mind of a learner... If you continue to spread scientology, Roman Catholicism and false doctrine here, it is not going to be nice for all of us.

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    My pledge to other members:
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    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

  18. #18
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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Quote Originally Posted by genez
    It was not a covenant of works. What was Adam? Disobedient. What was the New Adam, Jesus Christ? Obedient. It was volitional, but God was not seeking works, per se. He was seeking positive volition to remain in status quo. To remain sinless. Adam failed, Jesus was obedient, even to the death on the cross. Volition was the issue. The works were simply automatically the results of obedience. God sought obedience, not works.


    what the H-E-double hockysticks is obebidence? IT'S WORKS! how can you be obedient and not do anything? They go hand in hand... you CANNOT have one without the other!

    Adamn "failed"? I think not; Adam did exactly as planned BY GOD.

    Isa 46:10, (KJV), Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    The issue was not works. The issue was obedience to God's will for his life. Sure there would be works as a result of obedience. But, God sought obedience to his will, not works. Works were only symtomatic of there being obedience. If Adam never ate the fruit he would have lived forever. Would living forever be a work? No. But, it would have been the result of having been obedient.


    God sought obedience to His will not His works? This is complete nonsense. Why would God require obedience to His Works????

    No only is this void of any logical reasoning, it's complete foolishness...


    "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him." Hebrews 5:7-9 niv

    Is obedience, works? Obedience to avoid evil, works? Obedience would be as follows for us.....

    "But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen." 2 Peter 3:18

    What will those obey? To believe in Him. Remember this! He is the Word!


    Yes, odedience is works... If not, then how can we be saved the work of Chirst which was perfect obedience to God's Law?

    As for 2 Peter 3:18... Dude, could you take this verse out of context more than you already have?

    Israel was promised a new earth to inherit in their resurrection! We will be resurrected as having the same type glorious body as Jesus has. He is king of kings, and Lord of lords. We will reign with him if we are obedient to grow in grace and truth. But, reign over whom? If the Covenant T crowd here are correct? We are all Church? Whom will we reign over then? All unbelievers? They believe a contradiction.


    please show the scripture, in context to prove this point...

    We have been chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundations of the world. That means, that out of all God knew would believe, he chose us to be the Bride. How could he do this?


    Heresy!!!!!!

    ... this is what the BIBLE SAYS!

    Eph 2:8-9, (KJV)

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live." Acts 17:26 niv

    God chooses when each one of us is to be born. He could have chosen you to be born during David's lifetime. If he did? Then you were not chosen to be the Bride of Christ. Yet, he chose us who are living now to be in Christ Jesus before the foundations of the world. His sovereign choice. David would have loved to have been the Bride. But, he had no choice in the matter. It was all God's sovereign choice.

    Grace and peace, Gene


    UGH!

    I can't believe this garabge! This sickens me to the core...

    Listen, Gene. You are so far off track it's not even remotely funny.
    Last edited by Ugly_Gaunt_Cow; 09-16-2004 at 02:15 PM.

  19. #19
    doctr_of_grace is on a distinguished road doctr_of_grace's Avatar
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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador
    You quoted scriptures that speak of salvation as if every time the verb to "save" is in the Bible it means "ETERNAL SALVATION". Another demonstration of your poor understanding of the Bible. I will find out who your pastor is and I will email him your posts and ask him to help you promptly...
    Milt
    Milt hahahaha .... what makes you think his pastor doesn't actually teach him this garbage?

    Man oh man ... I am still laughing over this ... THANKS ... LOL

    Genez you found yourself in a forum full of ppl that actually READ scripture and actually take the WHOLE COUNSEL of God very seriously. These statements you blatantly throw out are NOT NEW to any of us and if you can't back it up with more than your subjective opinion IT MEANS NOTHING to us.

    May God open your eyes to HIS TRUTH is of course my prayer . Jan
    It is what it is

  20. #20
    Facilitator GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador is a jewel in the rough GraceAmbassador's Avatar
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    Re: Man's inability to actively do good prior to the fall

    Quote Originally Posted by doctr of grace
    Milt hahahaha .... what makes you think his pastor doesn't actually teach him this garbage?

    Man oh man ... I am still laughing over this ... THANKS ... LOL

    Genez you found yourself in a forum full of ppl that actually READ scripture and actually take the WHOLE COUNSEL of God very seriously. These statements you blatantly throw out are NOT NEW to any of us and if you can't back it up with more than your subjective opinion IT MEANS NOTHING to us.

    May God open your eyes to HIS TRUTH is of course my prayer . Jan
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctr of Grace
    Milt hahahaha .... what makes you think his pastor doesn't actually teach him this garbage?
    I wouldn't doubt it. His pastor graduated Suma Cum Laude from Dallas Theological Seminary... perhaps Dr. Criswell disciple...

    Milt
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    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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