Are there any here sho hold to an "equal ultimacy" in election-that the reprobate of the non-elect and destiny to Hell are positive actions from God?
Are there any here sho hold to an "equal ultimacy" in election-that the reprobate of the non-elect and destiny to Hell are positive actions from God?
I believe all things that happen are purposed by God, if that's what you're asking.
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I am basically asking if you believe that God works unbelief into the heart of the non elect. (making disbelief an act of God)Originally Posted by Darth Gill
I believe all things that happen are purposed by God, if that's what you're asking.
Bulldog: Why would there be a need to do that? Can anyone be "born" with a propensity to believe, other than the elect? Read John 1 especially verses 12 and 13.
Also, read Isaiah 53 verse 1
"Who has believed our message?"
All have sinned and COME SHORT of the Glory of God. However, before the foundation of the world, God decreed that some would be born not of flesh and blood, nor the will of men, but of God. These, and only these, would receive Him and receive the power of becoming the Sons of God.
Why would there be a need for God to do something that is by nature already that way? Why would there be a need for God to work unbelief in the heart of the unelect when ALL hearts, including that of the ELECT were born short of the Glory of God?
It is not that God places unbelief information into the heart of the unbeliever that makes him an unbeliever, thus, an unelect. He does not believe because he is unelect! He is unelect because God did not elect him.. We can't try to get God off the hook (as Sproul said once) for decreeing things the way He did. The clay can't say to the potter "why did you make me this way?" (This last one the Apostle Paul said).
Milt
Grace Ambassador
A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace
My pledge to other members:
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11
If what this means is that casting my vote for Bush or for Cary seem equally void, then I'm right there with you.
I don't think that at some point in man's life, no matter how young, God does not suddenly 'work unbelief' into him which wasn't previously there. (EDIT: the double-negative in the previous sentence was unintentional - ignore the "does not"!) But then I have not encountered a definition of 'equal ultimacy' that speaks about it this way. I understand equal ultimacy to refer to God actively decreeing to reprobate some as opposed to electing some and simply 'passing over' the others.
To me Romans 9:21-23 answers this. God actively makes the common pots as well as the noble ones. He has prepared objects of wrath for destruction. Some 'preparation' was necessary! Yet this does not mean that God had to do something to make them not believe. They freely do not belief because they were made for that purpose.
Martin
Last edited by Skeuos Eleos; 09-12-2004 at 05:05 PM. Reason: er, well it said exactly the opposite of what I meant!
As Calvin rightly noted, God does not merely permit wicked and sinful deeds, He decrees them. Yet man always does them in accordance with his own will. There is no room for a mere permissive will of God in Scripture. Reprobation is an active decree on the part of God. Yet election and reprobation are not on the same level. Reprobation is subordinate to election and serves the cause of it. I found the following pamphlet very helpful in developing a Biblical view of the subject:
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_50.html
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
God actively hardened Pharaoh. Romans 9:18. and also all the reprobate. If he did not "actively" harden those whom he rejected from all eternity...then explain Romans 9:18.
Bill
Jude 24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
We cannot have one without the other. Accepting election while rejecting reprobation leads to only one illogical outcome; the former group has been predestined by God while the latter is comprised of sinful humans who have yet to make the 'choice' to become children of God.
If we adhere to this belief system, we automatically cancel out the doctrine election by introducing an absurd paradox that doesn't make any sense.
While not trying to over-simplify the doctrine of election, perhaps one of the easiest ways to get our minds around this issue (which can be somewhat difficult to accept) is to view the scenario as 'part' & 'counter-part'.
Many of us here believe in equal ultimacy (contrary to 90+ percent of those who call themselves Calvinists) if the typical use of that label is meant: the view that God positively predestined both the plan of salvation and the plan of reprobation.
Having said that, it is also important to confess that the wonderful plan of redemption is a reality that is far more central to the heart of God's purposes than the opposite. Even though the saved will be fewer in number than the lost, the purpose of salvation in Christ is the central message of the gospel (and all of scripture).
We need to realize, however, that reprobation was positively determined by God for the exaltation of himself and to bring him glory. We do not know all the reasons for this presently. But we shall certainly know them on the other side of the curtain.
To a large extent, evangelicalism has the wrong view of hell. It is not based on biblical revelation. Thus people accepting the 'evangelical' view of hell cannot believe that God has positively predestined many to experience it.
The NT scriptures never focus on 'scaring people out of hell into heaven'; the reality of a resurrection of damnation is preached--but not the vivid eternal and infinite torture expounded by Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims. I'm not going to debate this issue here but perhaps we should on a separate thread.
Hell is a grand manifestation of God's glory; a drama of suffering manifesting perfect order, justice, and comedy after the wisdom of God. He planned it for the very purpose of exalting the redeemed (who are created of the same biological seed) over it.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Those who affirm sovereign election but deny sovereign reprobation cannot be confessional Calvinists. They can be confessional Lutherans, but not Calvinists. Of course Luther himself taught sovereign reprobation, but I'll leave that for the Lutherans to worry about
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
I'm looking forward to this thread. I think it will help dispell a lot of the misinformation I have about the purpose of hell.
I am also ready for another Hell Thread.I still have lots to work out
Same here UGC. So what are you waiting for Bob?
Mike
I have started a new thread in the Eschatology section where we can debate this topic all over again! I recommend that all participants read the 'Eternal Torment' debate in 'great past discussions' before proceeding.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
... and here's a link to it to help you find your way there.
The Doctrine of Hell
... and here is a link to the eternal torment thread mentioned.
Be edified.
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