Should we pray for the lost to be saved?

[Brandan Kraft]

This has been a practice of mine over the last several years, but I'm beginning to question if it is a biblical practice. That is should we pray for God to save those that we don't know are His? In the church I attend, it is common to pray for the lost people in attendance to be saved, to pray for the lost people in St. Louis to be saved. Do we find an example of this type of prayer in Scripture? I know Jesus prayed not for the world, but for His people....

I'd like your comments as I'm not sure what the answer truly is. Have I've been involved in an unbiblical practice by praying for the salvation of the lost?

Brandan

[Robert R. Higby]

Any prayers for the lost to be saved must give glory to God: by acknowledging that we desire the lost whom he has ELECTED to be saved. Not merely those whom we love in this earthly life by sentiment or family ties. There is nothing wrong with us desiring our friends and family to be saved. However, to pray that God will save them in a manner that invokes his favoritism toward our family line or circle of friends--this is abominable.

All of us have many ancestors in hell. We will also have biological descendents in hell. Isaac now sees his son Esau in hell. David sees his sons Ammon and Absolam in hell. Eli sees his sons in hell. That 'Presbyterian covenant child' cult leader in California (Marshall Applewhite) is now in hell, though both his father and son were/are conservative Presbyterian ministers. None of this scenario is ultimately due to any fault of men who were faithful to God's oracles (although some of them seriously disobeyed God's commands with respect to their children).

Many heathen who are converted to Christ have all their ancestors in hell for dozens of generations! Including, of course, their own parents.

God shows no favoritism in family lines or circles of friendship. He indeed may have predestined our children or friends to hell. We must pray according to his sovereign will and perfect grace in election! It is far more appropriate to pray for wisdom in teaching the gospel to our family & friends than it is to pray that God will save each one individually. His elective decree toward all mankind is certain already!

[Eileen]

I have a lot of family that are not Christian, I always pray that all things will work together for their good and not their destruction, knowing that God's purposes will be accomplished in their life as well as mine.

Right or wrong according to scripture I'm not sure. We are to pray for our enemies, what are we to pray about for them? Interesting question.

[Brandan Kraft]

Thanks Bob,

This is how I've recently begun to qualify my prayers... For example, I pray for the salvation of my son with the qualification if it's God's will and if Cole is one of Christ's elect for whom He died. I do notice now that these qualifications are not at all present in most modern day Calvinist's prayers. One of the arguments that Calvinists use to prove that Arminianianism is a valid theological scheme within the pale of orthodoxy is that Arminians pray like Calvinists. Actually, one could make the argument that Calvinists pray like Arminians.... hmmmm...

I will think more on what you have stated here Bob. Thanks.

Brandan

[Brandan Kraft]

Right or wrong according to scripture I'm not sure. We are to pray for our enemies, what are we to pray about for them? Interesting question.

Yes, we are to pray for enemies... but how specifically are we to pray for them, I do not really know. One thing we can consistently do is pray for God's will to be done in their lives - whatever that may be specifically for the person I'm praying for, I do not necessarily know.

Anyone else have any comments?

Brandan

[Brandan Kraft]

It is far more appropriate to pray for wisdom in teaching the gospel to our family & friends than it is to pray that God will save each one individually.

Very wise comment... I specifically do not observe this prayer in Calvinistic circles today. Today I hear, "Lord please save so and so... You are able... etc..." The prayer, "Lord please enable me/us to clearly explain the Gospel to so and so.." is not heard often or not at all....

[Eileen]

I went and looked up the specific scripture in Matthew and Luke:

"pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you".....that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and the unjust"

So perhaps our praying for our enemy is for us and not for our enemy, so that we might be merciful as He is merciful.

[Robert R. Higby]

This praying for those who treat us with spite acknowledges that God may or may not have elected them to salvation. He dispenses good to the just and the unjust (both of whom we are exhorted to pray for). So it is reasonable to conclude that this exhortation of Christ is not exhorting us to pray specifically for the salvation of every single soul of mankind we can think of (Osama Bin Laden, Sadam Hussein, Zarchawe, etc.).

I have a friend that quotes the Psalm stating "Oh God, slay the wicked!" and prays for Bill Clinton every day. Not that God will save him, but that God will kill him and put him in hell! This, too, is not in harmony with biblical revelation. Asking God to slay the wicked is certainly pleading for him to deal with the non-elect speedily, however, we cannot know who INDIVIDUAL non-elect souls are! So such praying is general, not specific to actual souls. Our prayers for God to save the elect presently in sin are to be of the same nature.

[RaggedEdge]

To pray for His Kingdom on earth would seem to me to imply anyone upon the earth at the time since the Kingdom at this time is within our hearts.

Matthew 6:9 ¶After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
I am not sure but I don't believe it could be counted as anything but love for others.

[tomas1]

We are told to love our enemies. Love involves wanting what is best for them. If we truly want what is best for them we should pray for it. Is not the Grace of salvation what is best for them?
This must be balanced with our first duty to love God. If God saved everyone his Glory would be tarnished something that we should not want. Sounds like a dilemma to me. The best place to work out a dilemma is on our knees (like Jesus did in the Garden)

[Skeuos Eleos]

To pray for His Kingdom on earth would seem to me to imply anyone upon the earth at the time since the Kingdom at this time is within our hearts.

Matthew 6:9 ¶After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
I am not sure but I don't believe it could be counted as anything but love for others.

When I read this verse it reminds that God is sovereign and we are not. He is the Creator, we are merely the creatures. We must humble ourselves and accept His will, whether it appeals to natural man or not (and most likely it will not!). Thus it reminds me that God has absolute right over the clay to make what He chooses - not what we choose! Humbling? Yes, but who are we to question God! Thus, even when praying for my family, I always qualify it, with trembling, with "if it be Your will". What a test of our submission!

My 18-year old daughter has just this week left home to start university. In the last couple of years or so she has come to completely reject all she has ever been taught about God. It is scary. She learnt more than I ever did with the limited nominal Methodist association through my Mum that I had and rejected as soon as I was taller than her at age 13! When she was age 13, she did what most kids in today's typical false gospel 'churches' do and "asked Jesus into her life". Today she dismisses it all as 'nonsense'. I ponder her state often. I pray for her. But I do not know God's will for her. Sadly these days, to my own shame, I don't get to talk with her about it much. However, I do remember that I was once an even greater rebel and yet God had mercy upon me! Also I note that, as WB says, it would seem that God does make promises that extend to children of believers - although obviously not to every child of every believer - so in these two thoughts I do find some good ground for hope. Yet I must say "Your will be done".

One thing I am convinced of: that "surely the Lord of all the earth will do right"!

Martin

[wildboar]

Skeuos:

My son is only 7 months old so I can't imagine the anguish this must cause you. I will keep you and your family in my prayers. Do not lose hope. God at times brings people very low so that they see their true dependence upon Him. Bring her the Word when you have oppurtunity.

[sTT]

This has been a practice of mine over the last several years, but I'm beginning to question if it is a biblical practice. That is should we pray for God to save those that we don't know are His? In the church I attend, it is common to pray for the lost people in attendance to be saved, to pray for the lost people in St. Louis to be saved. Do we find an example of this type of prayer in Scripture? I know Jesus prayed not for the world, but for His people....

I'd like your comments as I'm not sure what the answer truly is. Have I've been involved in an unbiblical practice by praying for the salvation of the lost?

Brandan

The CANONS OF DORT give two pastoral warnings: 1 -- NOT to presume who will not be saved, and 2 -- NOT to dispair over our own salvation.

DON'T IGNORE EITHER!

Good advice from the past.

[Eileen]

SE:

"One thing I am convinced of: 'surely the Lord of all the earth will do right'

Amen brother Martin! Isn't that why we along with countless others who have lost family and loved ones know that all souls belong to Him and that we know WHO is our only comfort in life and in death......our Faithful Saviour, Jesus Christ. Our hope remains in Him alone!

[RaggedEdge]

Certainly we should pray God's will and know He will do right.
Does not these verses in Jude tell us what love does?

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

It is only the Lord that saves..but I was under the impression that the above verses relays a message of love even for the unsaved?

[RaggedEdge]

It suddenly hit me in review of the Jude verses..that if we are continually praying the Lord's will and we then have a desire to pray for someone unsaved...the Lord would not put an improper desire upon His elect in such matters.

[Brandan Kraft]

No offense ragged edge, but that sounds like a charismatic's response to this question. I understand where you're coming from, but using that logic, you could make a case for the "well-meant" offer of the gospel and common grace. God's thoughts are not necessarily our thoughts and if we desire something that does not necessarily mean God desires it or that our prayers are biblical...Eileen, Martin, both of your contributions are excellent. I have a lot to think about!

[Skeuos Eleos]

Certainly we should pray God's will and know He will do right.
Does not these verses in Jude tell us what love does?

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

It is only the Lord that saves..but I was under the impression that the above verses relays a message of love even for the unsaved?

I wasn't quite sure what you meant by 'relays a message of love'. Certainly, as Tomas1 has already pointed out, we are to love even our enemies and do good to them. By showing compassion and warning of the consequences of sin we do show love (although enemies are not likely to perceive the latter as love). But there is no contradiction: we should be zealous and tireless in our efforts but we do not know whether those to whom we show compassion will actually result in a difference being made or that those whom we warn will actually be saved! The results are up to God. It is just the same principle as that the gospel should be proclaimed to all but only the Elect will believe. In showing compassion or warning of sin God's purposes are by no means always the salvation of the recipient of our concern. Some seem to forget or overlook that God is also glorified in reprobation and in the doing of good towards enemies (including praying for them) and in the fact that, in some cases, it ultimately results not in their salvation but in burning coals being heaped upon their heads!

Martin

[RaggedEdge]

God's thoughts are not necessarily our thoughts and if we desire something that does not necessarily mean God desires it or that our prayers are biblical...

No offence taken Darth. I understand your point also.

The conclusion came from Jude passages that He is able to keep us faultless and pulling one from the fire.

I do believe He will present me faultless.

The Jude passages make advances toward the unsaved with confidence.

In that I will rest.

[RaggedEdge]

(including praying for them) and in the fact that, in some cases, it ultimately results not in their salvation but in burning coals being heaped upon their heads!

I understand your point also Martin. Thank you.