Don G.:
Jesus says the wages of sin is death, not an eternal life of tormant.
I take it as he says.
Do birds die in the sense that you describe?
Don G.:
Jesus says the wages of sin is death, not an eternal life of tormant.
I take it as he says.
Do birds die in the sense that you describe?
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Yes birds die in the same sense.Originally Posted by BillTwisse
Don G.:
Jesus says the wages of sin is death, not an eternal life of tormant.
I take it as he says.
Do birds die in the sense that you describe?
To Don: OK. So birds have no resurrection after their death, what do you believe regarding:
1. The resurrection of damnation (is it mere metaphor or a real event)?
2. The nature of the torments of the damned.
3. The duration of the torments of the damned.
--Bob
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Mt 5:22 describes hell as fire (which annihilate what is thrown into it).
Mt 5:29 warns about perishing by having one’s body thrown in the fire of hell.
Mt 10:28 confirms that both body and soul are killed in hell.
What is: ''Where their worm dies NOT, and the fire is NOT quenched.''?
Do fire and the worm die anyway after a LONG while?
Hi L-Today. Did you happen to notice the "beast/false prophet are thrown "alive" in the lake of fire which would also be around while the rest are being killed by the sword?
Who captured them and threw them in?
Also, they and the "devil" were cast in before the white throne judgement of the wicked? How do you view that? Just curious on that. Thanks.
Reve 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
"There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"
I agree with ICA that Gehenna is a Jewish metaphor. If so, it still has something to do with the universal truth of the resurrection of damnation. As I stated near the opening of this thread, my conviction is that since the resurrection of damnation consists LITERALLY of everlasting shame and contempt, this is what Gehenna is picturing in the metaphor of fire and worms perpetually consuming dead bodies. The idea of whether the wicked will be literally annihilated in literal fire or endlessly tortured in literal fire--neither is what is really in view. It is rather telling us that the everlasting shame and contempt of the wicked can be metaphorically pictured as Gehenna--a garbage dump where worms and fire endlessly feed on and devour corpses.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Hi L-Today. Did you happen to notice the "beast/false prophet are thrown "alive" in the lake of fire which would also be around while the rest are being killed by the sword?Who captured them and threw them in?
Also, they and the "devil" were cast in before the white throne judgement of the wicked? How do you view that? Just curious on that. Thanks.
Reve 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Hi BT. Nice post. Nothing much I can add, except the parable of the rich man and lazarus in Luke 16 and Jeremiah 17 being comparable to the LOF.I agree with ICA that Gehenna is a Jewish metaphor. If so, it still has something to do with the universal truth of the resurrection of damnation. As I stated near the opening of this thread, my conviction is that since the resurrection of damnation consists LITERALLY of everlasting shame and contempt, this is what Gehenna is picturing in the metaphor of fire and worms perpetually consuming dead bodies. The idea of whether the wicked will be literally annihilated in literal fire or endlessly tortured in literal fire--neither is what is really in view. It is rather telling us that the everlasting shame and contempt of the wicked can be metaphorically pictured as Gehenna--a garbage dump where worms and fire endlessly feed on and devour corpses.
The Bible is so rich in metaphors and symbolism, and I suppose that is why I love it so much. Blessings.
Last edited by InChristAlways; 05-16-2005 at 05:11 PM.
"There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"
Hi, InChristAlways,
Yes, I have noticed that the beast/false prophet have been thrown into the lake of fire alive, while others were killed by the sword. Do you think that those killed by the sword will escape the Gehenna? Or that the beast/false prophet and the devil will be the only ones in the lake of fire? Do you think the lake of fire is literal? Who captured them? To tell you the truth, I was not so much concerned with this one; apparently somebody mightier than they are. Do you think it is important who exactly captured them? Maybe it is.
Bob, thank you for your reply. I did not put my question properly - it actually was not meant to be about the nature of worms and fire but about their duration. The posting before mine by Don Guyus implied the utter destruction, and I wondered whether he thought of annihilation because of the verses he cited, that is why I thought of non-dying worms and unquenchable fire.
I personally do not believe we are able to conclude a lot of strict doctrine from some of this apocalyptic scripture. The fact that certain enemies of God are pictured as being thrown alive into the lake of fire--while others are killed--this probably is nothing more than an apocalyptic contrast of relative guilt.
Thanks for your comments, Luba. I think that Don G. would admit he believes in final annihilation based on his comments. This does not bother me as much as it does some contributors, since I do not believe that one's detailed belief on the doctrine of final punishment is a form of unity. That is--as long as one confesses the resurrection of damnation and the fact that the reprobate will stand before God in judgment to receive their proper sentence.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Yes, Bob, I agree. As long as one confesses the resurrection of damnation and them receiving their just punishment, because some deny it. As John Stott, a popular socialist ''christian'' here in England - he does not believe in hell at all. This is not acceptable for it is not biblical and goes straight against many sayings of our Lord Jesus Himself. If there is no hell whatsoever, from what are we saved?
Who captured them and threw them in?
Also, they and the "devil" were cast in before the white throne judgement of the wicked? How do you view that? Just curious on that. Thanks.
Reve 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.Hi L. I preach to a lot of newer christians coming to Christ, and buy them a Bible if they need one, but I mainly leave it up to the spirit of Jesus to lead them according to His will, not mine as He appears to call upon those He chooses to perform different functions for His Kingdom.
I am actually studying the OT in relation to Revelation, going through each book of the Scriptures to help me understand the Bible more, and try to increase my knowledge of our Creator. I believe revelation is the "physical" destruction of the house of Judah and their Temple and Great City in the first century.
The parable of the Rich man[Judah/Judas/Corrupt Sheperds] and Lazarus[Lost Sheep]. I study it both from a physical fulfillment and an ongoing age lasting Spiritual one. It is a fascinating Book!!. Blessings.
Isaiah 9:13 The people did not turn to him who smote them, nor seek the Lord of hosts. 14 So the Lord cut off from Israel head and tail, palm branch and reed in one day- 15 the elder and honored man is the head, and the prophet who teaches lies is the tail; 16 for those who lead this people lead them astray, and those who are led by them are swallowed up.
"There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"
Luba:Yes, Bob, I agree. As long as one confesses the resurrection of damnation and them receiving their just punishment, because some deny it. As John Stott, a popular socialist ''christian'' here in England - he does not believe in hell at all. This is not acceptable for it is not biblical and goes straight against many sayings of our Lord Jesus Himself. If there is no hell whatsoever, from what are we saved?
I did not have the latest on Stott's slide down the 'slippery slope'; I know that many were outraged when he was permitted to speak in chapel to the students at Covenant Seminary last year.
Although I prefer the expression "resurrection of damnation" instead of hell, because I believe it is more biblical, there is no question that a minimization of the scriptural teaching on the final destiny of the wicked is a great problem today. For me, this minimization is on both sides of the issue. Most traditionalists view 'hell' as a tragedy that God creates with great regret in order to honor a 'principle' of eternal justice that can't be ignored. However, the conditionalists often simply dismiss the final judgment as nothing but a quick and thorough annihilation just as fire burns paper. The historic teaching in all branches of orthodoxy is that the reprobate will endure perpetual and conscious shame age after age in the hereafter. Whether they are made immortal beyond all doubt (as stated in the Belgic Confession) is where I have to differ; this is not to say that I believe in annihilation either. He whom God wishes to speak to, either in love or in anger, cannot cease to exist (Luther).
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Bob, isn't ''cannot cease to exist'' = immortal?
Also, is Scripture speaking only about shame as an everlasting punishment?
No, I am not saying that reprobates will be tortured as by Spanish Inquisition, etc, but how do we know it will be only shame type of pain?
Hi L. There cannot be real total annihilation because nothing can be destroyed that was made physically.
Even if wood and paper are burned, there is still "residue" left, and the smoke of them goes up and is scattered in the winds, so it still exist in some form also.
I really don't have the answers but I look upon others as a "person", be they good or evil, and just try to glorify God by being in the image of Christ. After that, I feel it is up to God, as we are to sow the Word and let God water it.
I like what one person said a long time ago, "The blood of martyrs in Christ fertilize the earth"
Sorry if I can express myself better.
1 peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always [be] ready to [give] a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. 17 For [it is] better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
I am still trying to understand the spiritual symbolicalness of this, but the way I view it, those who see our Light and goodness[image of Christ], become ashamed in front of us, not everyone of course, but it just appears that way to me in some ways. Can anyone elaborate on this for me? Thanks and blessings to you.
Revelation 14:10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Last edited by InChristAlways; 05-20-2005 at 03:06 PM.
"There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"
Hi, ICA,
I meant in hell, not now on earth, when mentioning ''shame'' of the reprobates as their pain.
Morover, the unregenerate people do not know saving repentance, and therefore, their so-called shame when they are nasty to Christians, is worth nothing but adds to their future punishment.
L-Today.
In case anybody concludes that I believe that repentance saves - of course, not. I wrote 'saving repentance', meaning the repentance of a regenerate child of God, which repentance is given by God.
Mat 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
It seems clear to me that bringing eternal punishment into question also does likewise for eternal life. In view of the above quoted verse, I would be very hesitant to believe in annihilation for fear of advocating a less than eternity in glory for the saints.
Luba:
Bob, isn't ''cannot cease to exist'' = immortal?
No, because we are talking about God's determination to resurrect the damned and judge them according to his purposes; not an inherent immortality in their resurrected bodies that CANNOT be destroyed. The righteous, on the other hand, will be resurrected in INHERENTLY immortal bodies that can never be destroyed. If we apply the language of immortality to the wicked, it softens the meaning of what immortal life is for the saved (in my estimation, anyway). The language of immortality in the Bible is used always and only to describe either 1) God or 2) Those to whom he gives eternal, unending, & uninterrupted life (elect angels & humans).
Also, is Scripture speaking only about shame as an everlasting punishment? No, I am not saying that reprobates will be tortured as by Spanish Inquisition, etc, but how do we know it will be only shame type of pain?
Dan. 12:2 is the only literal description in the Bible of what the damned will experience in their resurrection. The shame and contempt are two sides of the same coin: shame is inherent to their souls and contempt is external (how God and the saints will regard them). There is no additional description of other torments, so we simply do not know. The meaning of banasos (torment) in the NT might include shame as well as torture, however, the use of the word itself does not explicitly imply that God will add torture to shame. 'Torment' in the Greek is used for all levels and types of discomfort.
Fire as a metaphor in the NT describes two things:
1. Destruction (as in 'burning up') which is used by annihilationists to try and prove their position.
2. God's awful presence, which the reprobate will be forced to endure in the resurrection (which goes against the notion of annihilation).
I will respond to other posts as time permits.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Bob, thank you.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks