God and Evil

[sTT]

Why I Do Not Say, "God Did Not Cause the Calamity, but He Can Use It for Good"

by John Piper

September 17, 2001

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/f...01/091701.html

[sTT]

Evil in Our World Today

http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/e...02/synergy.cfm

Fr. Hopko contrasted God and His creation as they relate to evil. "God is the Creator," and "everything God creates is good." In fact, God Himself "is good in a way beyond human imagining." All things "beyond [God] are creatures, from which evil comes. Evil is a lack of good…and has no substantial existence." It is also "the misuse and abuse of good," Fr. Hopko pointed out, "the constant destruction and perversion of what is good." Furthermore, as Dr. Chryssavgis later related, "Evil is against life and is all that opposes life." In fact, "the word 'evil' is 'live' spelled backwards."

"God knew His creatures would be evil," Fr. Hopko continued. "However, because of God's great love, He created them anyway. Evil originates "when creatures think they have choices." They "refuse to give glory and thanks to God" because they prefer to "worship the creature rather than the Creator." (This was "the sin of Adam," who chose "to live life without God").

Ultimately, Fr. Hopko deduced, "the only choice is: Thy will be done. The more we [live] in Christ, the less choice we have, [but] the freer we become. Jesus has no choice at all, [yet] He is totally free and knows the truth."

"God [Christ] entered the world as it is with all of its evil and destruction," Dr. Chryssavgis confirmed, but "evil, the devil, and death are cursed because they can't love." Thankfully, "good (love) conquers evil, and suffering through evil leads to new life."

Will evil last forever? "Yes," the Scriptures say. However, evil can have a purpose. "All acts of tragedy are meant to get people's attention for repentance," Fr. Hopko affirmed. "God does not will evil or death," but He does use them, if necessary. "Wickedness and evil are the only things God has in this era of evil."

Interesting ideas.
They are challenging notions, and ones that take me a while to think about.

Maybe they will prompt discussion!

[Robert R. Higby]

All things "beyond [God] are creatures, from which evil comes. Evil is a lack of good…and has no substantial existence."

Double-talk and paradox theology. Creatures are not beyond God, they are all created by him. If they experience evil then God purposed it. The notion that evil has no substantial existence is Gnostic and certainly the teaching of so many cults (Christian Science, etc.).

[sTT]

All things "beyond [God] are creatures, from which evil comes. Evil is a lack of good…and has no substantial existence."

Double-talk and paradox theology. Creatures are not beyond God, they are all created by him. If they experience evil then God purposed it. The notion that evil has no substantial existence is Gnostic and certainly the teaching of so many cults (Christian Science, etc.).

How did you get so confused? No distinction between God and creatures. Come on now!

Make sense.

[sTT]

Sent to me by a friend:

And here's an earlier work by Piper on the same topic, also discussing God "ordaining sin", and weaving Edwards thoughts into the work:

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/suffering/god_and_evil.html

[sTT]

• "God creates everything good."

• 
  
  • -----

• "God knew His creatures would be evil. However, because of God's great love, He created them anyway.

• 
  
  • -----
  
  

• "Evil's origin is creaturely choice."

• 
  
  • -----

• "God wills that there be evil. Although God did not create evil, God clearly wills, according to Christian scripture and tradition, that evil and sickedness exist. The fathers, interpreting scripture, make this subtle point by saying that though God does not eill evil metaphycisally, God certainly does will evil providentially. This is proven by God creating those he knew would be evil. "
  
  

[Skeuos Eleos]

I agree with the article by Piper (though I do not agree with him on other things).

The second article stands in opposition to it and is unbiblical. I wasn't sure what debate you were hoping to prompt by providing links to the two articles? Do you agree with both or one and not the other? (If so which one? - I hope not the second one as it is unbiblical and contrary to scripture on many points)

Some of the problems I have with the second quote:

Evil in Our World Today
Fr. Hopko contrasted God and His creation as they relate to evil. "God is the Creator," and "everything God creates is good." In fact, God Himself "is good in a way beyond human imagining." All things "beyond [God] are creatures, from which evil comes. Evil is a lack of good…and has no substantial existence."
- evil is more than a lack of good
- If evil has "no substantial existence" then neither does "good"!
These statements seem pointless to me other than perhaps to try to lay foundations for other more blatant errors later.

"God knew His creatures would be evil," Fr. Hopko continued. "However, because of God's great love, He created them anyway. "
- what a denial of God's sovereignty! God knew some creatures would be evil because He made them that way! God does not merely allow and try to influence evil He creates it and ordains it and directs it for His purposes! God does not merely look through time to see what will happen and then determine what to do about it as though it is ordered by some forces outside of His control. He is in control of all things and ordains all things from beginning to end!

"Evil originates "when creatures think they have choices." "
The bible says that evil originates out of people's wicked hearts.

Ultimately, Fr. Hopko deduced, "the only choice is: Thy will be done. The more we [live] in Christ, the less choice we have, [but] the freer we become. Jesus has no choice at all, [yet] He is totally free and knows the truth."
"God [Christ] entered the world as it is with all of its evil and destruction," Dr. Chryssavgis confirmed, but "evil, the devil, and death are cursed because they can't love." Thankfully, "good (love) conquers evil, and suffering through evil leads to new life."
What is this drivel because it ain't in the bible!

Will evil last forever? "Yes," the Scriptures say. However, evil can have a purpose. "All acts of tragedy are meant to get people's attention for repentance," Fr. Hopko affirmed. "God does not will evil or death," but He does use them, if necessary. "Wickedness and evil are the only things God has in this era of evil."
Many, many scriptures show that God does indeed will evil and death.

Let's see if that gets your debate off to a good start.

Martin

[sTT]

Martin, first, thanks for replying.

But, second, it was not much of a reply. Sorry.

You seem to have only thrown around accusations. You certainly didn't handle any of the subtler issues. What can I find to help clue you in?

This issue is a real one, but also difficult.

You just threw things around without looking at them.

[sTT]

Echoing Cardinal Newman is this: "...we are continually 'saying and unsaying to a positive effect.' Having made an assertion about God, we must pass beyond it: the statement is not untrue, yet neither it nor any other form of words can contain the fullness of the transcendent God." (Hopko/Ware)

(...Lutheran scholar Jaroslav Pelikan comments: "Throughout the history of patristic theology, Eastern but also Western, this accent on the apophatic had functioned as a check, and one that was often necessary, on the pretentions of the theologians.")

A couple of hits on Google bring up these:

• Apophatic Theology -- http://www.geocities.com/stainlesskings888/apophatic.html
  
  Theological Education in Scripture and The Fathers -- http://www.syndesmos.org/en/texts/files/Text_37_Halki_bp_Kallistos.pdf.

[sTT]

So, Martin, whether you know it or not, the Hopko and Piper articles compare quite favorably.

[sTT]

ONCE.....

I'd posted this:

A.W.Tozer's "The knowledge of the Holy" was my bath tub reading material tonight, with the chapter about 'The Justice of God." Tozer reflects on Anselm's simplicity, that there is not a just 'part' and a merciful 'part' of God. And Tozer also says that there is nothing external to God (Romanazies says too) that God has to live up to. Tozer says that mercy is fulfilled in judgement and judgement is fulfilled in mercy.

Then a friend responded to this:

AW Tozer is one of my favourite authors - and that is a brilliant book.

Tozer's "Knowledge of the Holy" and "The Pursuit of God" should be mandatory reading for all Christians.

But that is the thing, we "compartmentalise" God whereas He is (as another writer has put it) all "holy goodness" not "holy" and "good". All His attributes and characteristics are held fully and in perfect unity.

But He is infinite, and we are not. I think that is one reason why so much of the Bible gives two positions, or two truths which must be held simultaneously, when in our reasoning we want to make it either/or.

For instance, God chooses and we choose - both are true.

And:

One of the best books I have read on this subject is by D.A.Carson, called “Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility”, but Don Carson also made some important points in “The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God”, quote following :

The Love of God

“To put this in another way, we live in a culture in which many other and complementary truths about God are widely disbelieved. I do not think what the Bible says about the love of God can long survive at the forefront of our thinking if it is abstracted from the sovereignty of God, the holiness of God, the wrath of God, the providence of God, or the personhood of God – to mention only a few nonnegotiable elements of basic Christianity.

The result, of course, is that the love of God in our culture has been purged of anything the culture finds uncomfortable. The love of God has been sanitized, democratised, and above all sentimentalised. ….. The hubris is staggering….

The Sovereignty and Transcendence of God

God is utterly sovereign ….. Through the exalted Son he upholds all things by his powerful word (Heb.1:3); indeed he “works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Eph.1:11). This control extends as much to sentient beings as to inanimate objects. He can turn the heart of the king in any direction he sees fit (Prov.21:1). He is the potter who has the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use (Rom.9:21). There can be no degree of difficulty with an omnipotent God. ….

Moreover he enjoys all knowledge …

The central line of Christian tradition neither sacrifices the utter sovereignty of God nor reduces the responsibility of his image-bearers … the biblical evidence is compelling. ….

I do not claim that any of this is easy or straightforward. Sooner or later one retreats into the recognition that, so far as we are concerned, there are some mysteries in the very Being of God. The deepest of these, I think, are tied to the fact that God as he has disclosed himself in Scripture is simultaneously sovereign/transcendent and personal …..”

The last point especially ties in with “apophatic theology” – or the teaching that God is transcendent.

But to paraphrase Don Carson, until we have a fully Biblical view of God we cannot really comprehend why the preaching of the love of God and the salvation accomplished by the Cross, is such good news.

So, K.Ware, T.Hopko, J.Piper, A.W.Tozer, and D.A.Carson all hit the nail on the head!

[sTT]

WHERE'S THE CONTRAST HERE? They say the same thing.

"Evil originates "when creatures think they have choices." "
The bible says that evil originates out of people's wicked hearts.

[sTT]

You need to handle subtleties here.

Will evil last forever? "Yes," the Scriptures say. However, evil can have a purpose. "All acts of tragedy are meant to get people's attention for repentance," Fr. Hopko affirmed. "God does not will evil or death," but He does use them, if necessary. "Wickedness and evil are the only things God has in this era of evil."

Many, many scriptures show that God does indeed will evil and death.

[sTT]

Take bite-sized pieces, and chew well.

"God wills that there be evil. Although God did not create evil, God clearly wills, according to Christian scripture and tradition, that evil and sickedness exist. The fathers, interpreting scripture, make this subtle point by saying that though God does not eill evil metaphycisally, God certainly does will evil providentially. This is proven by God creating those he knew would be evil. "

[Robert R. Higby]

sTT:

How did you get so confused? No distinction between God and creatures. Come on now!

Make sense.

Cheap polemics. I did not say there was no distinction between God and creatures; that is YOUR cheap accusation. What I said is that since God creates every creature and sovereignly controls the thoughts of each, evil can have no origin independent of God's purposes.

No debate is possible if you misrepresent your opponent. The methodology employed by historic churchmen to destroy the credibility of those who don't agree with them reminds me so, so much of the methods of politicians! And I'm not only talking about the mainstream denominations. I'm talking about all of them.

[sTT]

Neither I nor what I quoted were being "polemical."

You mentioned "origin(s) independent of God's purposes." but I'm not sure I'd say "origins." God does not create evil. God only creates good. The fine points are in the OTHER things said.

As to "sovereignly controls the thoughts of each" AGAIN that defers to what is meant by "control." One way it is true; the other not.

[Robert R. Higby]

sTT:

God does not create evil. God only creates good.

This is the law of Plato stated in his Republic. Patristic, Byzantine, and Roman theologians succeeded in making it also the law of the 'church'. So I am a heretic by the definition of historic churchmen, since I firmly believe that scripture teaches ALL things (time, space, law, and yes--evil) were created by God through Christ (Isa. 45:1-7, Col. 1:13-17). Evil does not have its origin in the character of God but does have its origin in Satan, a being that God created with a soul bent on murder and lies (John 6:44). This was according to his eternal purposes. Sin is prerequisite to redemption. Without it coming into existence there is no eternal purpose of grace.

[sTT]

I'm not interested in a polemic that throws out everything someone said (Plato). That's mindless imho. Neither do I do that to all RC, EO or RFs. Also, I'm not looking for a victom-hero. That's an old horse from the 80s and 90s -- long sent out to pasture.

This discussion, as started here, is achieved only without polemics. Only by "saying and unsaying" which must avoid such polemics.

[Brandan Kraft]

No debate is possible if you misrepresent your opponent.

That is why I advise not talking to him Bob.

STT, stop making numerous threads also.

[Mickey]

sTT, help me understand something. Why do you post quotes from these early church fathers, as if their filibustering actually contains one solid ioda of biblical exegesis. These quotes don't prove anything. They hold as much weight as the confessions you continually post links to. Now if we are discussing what these early 'fathers' said that is one thing; but if we are discussing whether or not God created evil or just passively allowed it to evolve into existence that is another. Lets argue scripture! Not see who can come up with the most novel one liners. Lets post scripture, exegete it, and see if someone may have a better interpritation that may help break us of the tradition that blinds. You never know, maybe that would help the problem of Biblical illiteracy that plagues so many professing Christians today!