Preterism: the TIMING of the JUDGMENT is part of the GOSPEL

[Michael B]

Preterism: The TIMING of the JUDGEMENT is part of the GOSPEL

In the scriptures below we see Paul speaking of the importance of not altering the gospel. Paul actually condemns men for altering it. While it is not my point to condemn anyone. I try my best to love everyone who names the name of Christ. Also, it is wise to point out that Paul corrected Peter's doctrine to "his face" and no one would ever question Peters salvation would we? Of course not. But I do think that anyone who is a futurist should really re-think his or her theology. This is part of the GOSPEL.

Galatians 1
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.


Notice in the scriptures above that by altering the Gospel of Christ is because of the need of men to be accepted by men. Is this a good reason? No! Because by doing so we are actually told that we would "not be a servant of Christ". It's not to be taken lightly. Should approval of men, getting what we want from men / women be our goal? We all want to be accepted by the masses. This is understandable. But the honor that we have been blessed with by being Preterists is the truth of God. God has blessed us with the truth of God in a much richer understanding than most. I do not mean this boastfully. I mean this in a way that I hope inspires us to share Preterism with whom ever we come across in order to further the understanding that WE HAVE A KING! We are no longer waiting for one.
So now to demonstrate straight from scripture that the timing of the judgment is part of the Gospel. Please remember, the scriptures above, and below, these are not my words. I am simply quoting the scriptures.


Matthew 16
27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."


Romans 2
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


Above we see that Paul the Apostle in Romans 2 quotes Matthew 16. In Matthew 16 we are told that the 2nd Coming of Christ would happen while some of the people that were standing there were still alive. In Romans 2 Paul quotes Matthew 16 and actually tells us that the judgment is part of the Gospel. Since it is tied to Matthew 16 the timing of the judgment (while some standing there were still alive) is part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Where else do we find "rewarding each person for what he has done"?


Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Revelation 22
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.


This means that Revelation 20 and Revelation 22 (all of Revelation) MUST BE FULFILLED since it had to occur before SOME OF THEM STANDING THERE HAD TASTED DEATH (Matt 16:27,28).
Michael Bennett <><
www.sovereigngracepreterism.com

[wildboar]

Michael B:

Don't you get it? You're still standing there with the Jews and the dispensensationalists on Palm Sunday. Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you. The apostles saw Christ coming in His kingdom on Pentecost and they saw it continuing to come after that. We still see the kingdom coming. Preterism on the other hand is the Hymenean heresy Paul wrote against. All the bold red large print you can muster doesn't change that.

[Brandan Kraft]

Hey, WildBoar and I agree on something! Hot Dog!

[Michael B]

The Timing Of The Resurrection / 2nd Coming Is 70AD


Daniel 12
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. <= Partial Preterists say this event is past - see Matt 24:21 But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. <= Resurrection 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" <= The astonishing things mentioned in verses 1 through 3
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." <= AD 70



Luke 21
20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, <= AD 70 you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. <= All which was written was fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem. This includes the resurrection. The power of the holy people shattered



Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. <= Covenant change and time text. Partial Preterists must hold to the time texts



Hebrews 9
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: <= AD 70 the temple was destroyed. The power of the holy people shattered
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, <= Time text in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation <= Covenant change28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. <= Second coming expected at the covenant change



Hebrews 10
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come <= Covenant change and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. <= Covenant change
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. <= Time text. The Partial Preterist must hold to the time text



To summarize: The Resurrection and the Second Coming were to occur at the COVENANT CHANGE. There are time texts involved. The Partial Preterist is supposed to hold to the time texts.





Nature Of The Resurrection Is Covenantal Not Physical


Compare 1 Corinthians 15 (resurrection) with 2 Corinthians 3 (covenant change)


1 Corinthians 15
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. <= Showing the comparison between the Old and New Covenant or "In Adam" compared to being "In Christ"
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body <= Old Covenant or "In Adam", and there is a spiritual body <=New Covenant or "In Christ".



Compare the scripture above with:


2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, <= Old Covenant so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? <= New Covenant
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory <= Comparison between Old and New Covenant.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious <= Old Covenant, much more that which remaineth is glorious. <= New Covenant


Compare 1 Corinthians 15 (resurrection) with 2 Corinthians 3 (covenant change)


1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. <= New Covenant or "In Christ"
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural,<= Old Covenant or "In Adam"; and afterward that which is spiritual.<= New Covenant or "In Christ"
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: <= Old Covenant or "In Adam" and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. <= New Covenant or "In Christ"
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, <= Old Covenant or "In Adam" we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.<= New Covenant or "In Christ"
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. <= Resurrection would be completed when the Old Covenant ended.


Compare the above scripture with:


2 Corinthians 3
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. <= Does the Spirit that changed people into the image of the Lord dwell in dead corpses? Or was it dwelling in people who were covenantally dead (seperated from God)? Please note: They were being TRANSFORMED into the SAME IMAGE from GLORY (Old Covenant) to GLORY (New Covenant). If they are in the New Covenant then they have been TRANSFORMED into the Lord's IMAGE!





To summarize: The resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 is the same event as the COVENANT CHANGE.



Conclusion: Both the TIMING of the resurrection and the NATURE of the resurrection are tied to the COVENANT CHANGE. Please honor God and conform your view to the scriptures if you have not done so already.


Michael Bennett www.sovereigngracepreterism.com <><

[Ivor Thomas]

Michael on the question of timing from 33ad to 70ad Stephen was stoned and died went to Heaven to Jesus, could you tell me if he had to wait for his resurrection body for a period of time just has a soul till 70ad?. Also do you think? the devil and his demons are not active in any way today?, because according to you they have been thrown into the lake of fire, because you say that revelation prophecy has been fulfilled, am I right to say this could you explain. Ivor Thomas..

[wildboar]

Michael B appears to be in the business of cutting and pasting, not of having discussion.

[Michael B]

The Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70 = The Second Coming

By: Michael Bennett

www.sovereigngracepreterism.com

Matthew 22
1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son <= Wedding language = Revelation 19 – 22. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. <= Teachers of the law and Pharisees. 4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' <= Wedding language = Revelation 19 – 22 fulfilled.
5"But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. <= Wedding takes place at destruction of Jerusalem AD 70: Therefore Revelation 19 - 22 is fulfilled.







Matthew 23
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!<= Same event as spoken of in Matthew 22 above.You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?<= Condemned to hell at this judgment = The Great White Throne Judgment.34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. <= Revelation 17–18 fulfilled. Babylon in Revelation = Jerusalem: blood of prophets and saints on it’s hands.36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. <= The judgment would come upon the generation Jesus was speaking with at that time.
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. <= The destruction of Jerusalem AD 70 = wedding took place (See Matthew 22 above) = Revelation 19 - 22 fulfilled.







Matthew 24
2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."<= Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.<= Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70.



30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other <= The secondcoming, rapture, resurrection.



34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. <= Destruction Of Jerusalem AD 70, in the generation Jesus was speaking with at that time.





Luke 19
43The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. <= Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70.44They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you." <= Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70 is when God was coming to them.





Luke 21
20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. <= Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. <= All which was written was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. This includes the second coming, rapture, resurrection.





Hebrews 9
8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. <= Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70.



28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, <= Second coming is the destruction of Jerusalem AD 70. not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.





Daniel 12
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. <= See Matthew 24:21.But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. <= Resurrection. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge." 5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things arefulfilled?"<= The astonishing things mentioned in verses 1 through 3.7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."<= Resurrection completed at the destruction of Jerusalem AD 70.

[Michael B]

Wild Boar - want to debate me? Lemme know.

[Michael B]

Acts 7
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."


Stephen went to the place known as "under the altar" when he died waiting for the vindication of the martyrs. If you know anything about the temple you will know that the altarwas not in the holy of holies. In other words,that was the goal. To be in the holy of holies with God







Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.



No one could enter the holy of holies while the first tabernacle was still standing.


Hebrews 9
8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.


Revelation 15
5After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened. 6Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.


Hebrews 9
28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


John 14
2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.


Notice all of the above verses say that we can not be in complete fellowship with God until:

A) the temple was destroyed
B) the plagues were finished
C) he returned the 2nd time
D) until he came back to receive them


There had to be a JUDGEMENT and the RESURRECTION had to occur to receive the KINGDOM - which is FELLOWSHIP with God.

Matthew 25
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Daniel was told EXACTLY when he would receive his inheritance.

Daniel 12
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. <= See Matthew 24:21.But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. <= Resurrection. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge." 5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things arefulfilled?"<= The astonishing things mentioned in verses 1 through 3.7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."<= Resurrection completed at the destruction of Jerusalem AD 70.


13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance." <=Daniel would receive the inheritance (the kingdom) the same time Stephen would. "when the Power of the Holy People was completely shattered"= AD 70.






Lemme know if you want to debate <><

Michael Bennett

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Very interesting...

But, before I hop on the wobbly lop-sided bandwagon of full-blown preterism, I have one quesiton...

If The Revelation of Jesus Christ was written between 90-95 A.D then what did John mean when He wrote "who is, who was and who is to come"?

[wildboar]

Michael B:

I and others have already posted several reasons why I am opposed to the preterist interpretation and you have yet to answer those objections. Since you cannot do something as simple as this I see no reason to engage in a formal debate with you. The only value such an event would have would be entertainment value and I do not wish to use the Bible for such a purpose. Preterism has in fact been debated on here before and I suggest you read some of the threads associated with that discussion. I see no need for what is currently ocurring in this thread where someone poses an objection and you just continue on dogmatically proclaiming that which you have been taught with no regard to the difficulties. It may have passed for a debate in the Kerry/Bush debates, but it is not a real debate and it is not a real Biblical discussion. In particular if you could pose some answers to the objections I posted quoting from Kim Riddlebarger I would be willing to further discuss this issue, if not I see no reason.

[Michael B]

WildBoar - point me to Kim Riddlebargers questions - I will be glad to answer them. Could you email them to me at steel_saint@yahoo.com. By the way - Pastor Gene Cook Jr used to be my Pastor. I know Kim Riddlebarger too. I live in San Diego. I am probably already familiar with the questions and have answers ready to go

[Michael B]

INTERNAL EVIDENCE

You see - I can present internal evidence within the bible (which should always be used as our # 1 source for truth) such as the fact that there is a temple standing when the book of Revelation was written. Such as the fact that 666 and 616 both add up to Nero Cesar in Hebrew and Latin. Such as the fact that the bible states that the events are to happen "soon" and "at hand".

Example:

1. If Daniel is told to seal up a vision because it will happen in the distant future. Why is John in Revelation (regarding the same prophesy as Daniel) told not to seal up the words of the prophesy?

2. If 500 - 600 years (the time between when Daniel was written and Revelation was written) concerns the "distant future". Then how could "near" mean 2000 + years?

3. If Revelation was two thousand + years away from being fulfilled why would God say - let him who does wrong continue to do wrong?

Daniel 8
26 "The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future."

Revelation 22
10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

Imminence in the Book of Revelation

1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ... [shows the] things which must shortly take place.1:3The time is near.3:11Behold, I come quickly!22:6-7His [the Lord God's] angel... [showed] His servants the things which must shortly take place. Behold, I am coming quickly.22:10The time is at hand.22:12Behold, I am coming quickly.22:20Surely I am coming quickly.

EXTERNAL EVIDENCE

I can also present external evidence:

Clement (150-215)
"For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, end with Nero." (Miscellanies 7:17.)

Epiphanies (A. D. 315-403)
States Revelation was written under "Claudius [Nero] Caesar." (Epiphanies, Heresies 51:12,)

Syriac Vulgate Bible (sixth century) "The Apocalypse of St. John, written in Patmos, whither John was sent by Nero Caesar." (Opening Title for the Book of Revelation)

William Hurte (1884)
"That John saw these visions in the reign of Nero, and that they were written by him during his banishment by that emperor, is confirmed by Theophylact, Andreas, Arethas, and others. We judge, therefore, that this book was written about A.D. 68, and this agrees with other facts of history.. There are also several statements in this book which can only be understood on the ground that the judgment upon Jerusalem was then future." (Catechetical Commentary: Edinburgh, Scotland, 1884)

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown (1871)
"The following arguments favor an earlier date, namely, under Nero: (1) EUSEBIUS [Demonstration of the Gospel] unites in the same sentence John's banishment with the stoning of James and the beheading of Paul, which were under Nero. (2) CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA'S story of the robber reclaimed by John, after he had pursued, and with difficulty overtaken him, accords better with John then being a younger man than under Domitian, when he was one hundred years old. Arethas, in the sixth century, applies the sixth seal to the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70), adding that the Apocalypse was written before that event. So the Syriac version states he was banished by Nero the Cæsar. Laodicea was overthrown by an earthquake (A.D. 60) but was immediately rebuilt, so that its being called "rich and increased with goods" is not incompatible with this book having been written under the Neronian persecution (A.D. 64). But the possible allusions to it in Heb 10:37; compare Re 1:4,8 4:8 22:12; Heb 11:10; compare Re 21:14; Heb 12:22,23; compare Re 14:1; Heb 8:1,2; compare Re 11:19 15:5 21:3; Heb 4:12; compare Re 1:16 2:12,16 19:13,15; Heb 4:9; compare Re 20:1-15; also 1Pe 1:7,13 4:13, with Re 1:1; 1Pe 2:9 with Re 5:10; 2Ti 4:8, with Re 2:26,27 3:21 11:18; Eph 6:12, with Re 12:7-12; Php 4:3, with Re 3:5 13:8,17:8 20:12,15; Col 1:18, with Re 1:5; 1Co 15:52, with Re 10:7 11:15-18, make a date before the destruction of Laodicea possible. Cerinthus is stated to have died before John; as then he borrowed much in his Pseudo-Apocalypse from John's, it is likely the latter was at an earlier date than Domitian's reign. See TILLOCH'S Introduction to Apocalypse. But the Pauline benediction (Re 1:4) implies it was written after Paul's death under Nero." (introduction to Revelation)

Ken Gentry (1989)
"My confident conviction is that a solid case for a Neronic date for Revelation can be set forth from the available evidences, both internal and external. In fact, I would lean toward a date after the outbreak of the Neronic persecution in late A.D.64 and before the declaration of the Jewish war in early A.D.67. A date in either A.D.65 or early A.D.66 would seem most suitable." [Before Jerusalem Fell (Tyler, TX: ICE, 1989), 336.] “John emphasizes his anticipation of the soon occurrences of his prophecy by strategic placement of these time references. He places his boldest time statements in both the introduction and conclusion to Revelation. It is remarkable that so many recent commentators have missed it literally coming and going! The statement of expectancy is found three times in the first chapter – twice in the first three verses: Revelation 1:1,3,19. The same idea is found four times in his concluding remarks: Revelation 22:6,7,12,20. It is as if John carefully bracketed the entire work to avoid any confusion.” (The Beast of Revelation; Tyler, TX; ICE, 1982; p. 21-22).

“Think of it: If these words in these verses do not indicate that John expected the events to occur soon, what words could John have used to express such? How could he have said it more plainly?” (The Beast of Revelation; Tyler, TX; ICE, 1982; p. 24


R.C. Sproul (1998)
"If the book of Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, it seems strange that John would be silent about these cataclysmic events. Granted this is an argument from silence, but the silence is deafening. Not only does Revelation not mention the temple's destruction as a past event, it frequently refers to the temple as still standing. This is seen clearly in Revelation 11 ...Gentry gives impressive evidence to support this conclusion."(Last Days, pp.147-149)

Ovid Need, Jr. (2001)
"I will say in opening that Revelation chapter eleven almost requires that the date of the book be pre 70 AD, for there the temple and altar are still standing, as well as the city where our Lord was crucified, v. 8. (International Bible Encyclopedia, s.v. Revelation, book of. 1917.)

EXPLANATION OF IRENEUS' QUOTE - OFTEN USED BY LATE DATE ADVOCATES

Irenaeus' Quote (Used as Grounds for Late Date Theory)
"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the Revelation. For (‘he’ [John?] or ‘it’ [Revelation?]) was seen . . . towards the end of Domitian’s reign." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3)

Irenaeus was writing about A.D. 180.



(1) The "was not seen" is grammatically ambiguous (greek): it could mean

either: John was seen alive at that time, or: John saw the Revelation at

that time. The context suggest John was seen. After all, what difference

would it make when Revelation was received by John? The point is: John was

alive and people could have asked him about the identity of the Antichrist.

John could have distinctly revealed the identity in question in Revelation

itself - regardless of when it was written.

(2) Elsewhere Irenaeus deals with the problem that some mss have

"666" and others "616": "Now since this is so, and since this number is

found in all the good and ancient copies." How could he call copies of

Revelation "ancient" if the original was written "almost in our day"?

[GraceAmbassador]

Friend:

If you do not intend to respond to the challenges presented to you here, even when you say "Lemme know if you want to debate", please, be advised that you will be ignored as a parrot, cut-and-paster, with no individual thinking, reflecting only someone else's ideas and will be ignored until you fade away.

If you persist in not responding anyone else's challenges whereas you remain placing the views of someone else, we will deem it as "propaganda" and this will not be tolerated.

Wildboar, Brandan and others have given you plenty of arguments for you to consider and you prefer to ignore. That is intolerable.

We love debate here and not monologues. Monologues is pretty much what full preterist (once Christians) do. I am sure you can find plenty of venues in the Internet for monologues.

Thank you.

Milt

[doctr_of_grace]

hahahaha milt .... you are sure right about us loving to debate .

Luv ya brother .... Jan

[wildboar]

If someone could post a link to the page where I posted the summary of Kim Riddlebarger's argument against Preterism that would be great.

I have to say that I find the whole argument that the temple had to be standing in order for John to have a vision of a temple absurd. Would there have had to be beasts with horns and crowns running about the earth as well? I believe I also posted arguments against dating Revelation to a pre 70AD date. If someone knows where that is, I would appreciate them posting a link to that as well.

[Brandan Kraft]

If someone could post a link to the page where I posted the summary of Kim Riddlebarger's argument against Preterism that would be great.

http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...0116#post20116

Several years ago I read "The Last Days According to Jesus" by R.C. Sproul and was convinced for about a month of the partial-preterist position but began to see some problems with it. It even seemed in the book that Sproul wanted to adopt a full-preterist position but saw the heresy in that.

In my opinion, the historical evidence for the pre-70 AD dating is pretty weak. G.K. Beale gives a rather thorough analysis of the arguments on each side in his commentary on Revelation found in the "New International Greek Testament Commentary" series. I think he also has the best commentary on Revelation, but without a knowledge of Greek passages can be difficult to understand. There are Preterists who do not hold to the pre-70 AD dating, but I think there are many other problems associated with this interpretation as well. The following is for the most part a summary of things discussed in "A Case for Amillenialism" by Kim Riddlebarger which is an excellent and well-researched book although I disagree with his interpretation of Romans 11:26. I have also put my own comments in various places.

Full preterists are guilty of the heresy of Hymenaeus that we find in 2 Tim. 2:17-18. They try to do exegetical gymnastics to twist what Hymenaeus taught, but it's pretty clear.

Partial preterists teach that the Lord returned in judgment in 70 and will return again at the end of time. This teaching not only introduces the problem of multiple comings of Jesus but it does not agree with Jesus' teaching about this age and the age to come.

The New Testament is full of eschatological tension between things which are already fulfilled and things which are not yet fulfilled. Jesus taught both that his coming was immanent and that specific signs will precede his coming and it will happen when we least expect it. Paul stresses the already and the not yet (Rom. 8:23-25). Paul even speaks of those who are in Christ as already being raised with him and says we are already seated in the heavenlies (Eph. 2:6) although the redemption of our bodies has not yet occured and he speaks of this as a future event.

Both futurists and preterists seek to remove the eschatological tension we find in the NT. The futurist makes Revelation irrelevant to the churches at the time it was written, and the preterist makes it irrelevant to the church today. Our eschatology should mirror that of the Bible and so the tension should remain.

The NT does not speak of Jesus coming back in judgment in 70 AD. In the Olivet Discourse Jesus spoke of his coming as being visible (Matt. 24:27-29). Israel's desolation is completed by the events of 70 AD, but the Bible does not teach a coming of Christ in judgment which is invisible and localized in Jerusalem. Christ's coming is the day of judgment on the nations, when all great and small cower in fear (Rev. 6:15-17)

The biggest problem with all preterism is that it fails to acknowledge that the end of this age and the dawn of the age to come are not mere shifts in redemptive history. There is no doubt that the events of 70 AD do, in part, fulfill our Lord's words to his apostles of immanent judgment on Israel. The destruction of Jerusalem does not mark the end of the age; the final consummation does (Luke 20:35). This indicates that although the events of 70 AD are vital to the course of redemptive history, they do not constitute our Lord's Parousia or the judgment. The contrast between this age and the age to come is a contrast between things eternal and things temporal. This contrast presents a major problem for preterist interpreters, who seek to limit this shift to the destruction of Jerusalem. The two ages are not merely two periods in the redemptive-history time but are two distinct eschatological epochs, with the age to come not being fully realized until our Lord's second advent.

I believe the amillennial interpretation does a much better job of interpreting Biblical prophecy as the Bible itself does. In the OT prophecies were sometimes given and would be fulfilled in part but did not reach their full fulfillment until the time of Christ.

Sola Gratia,
WildBoar

[Brandan Kraft]

I might add that I no longer hold to a partial preterist interpretation but have adopted historicism/amillennialism as an understanding of biblical eschatology and pretty much agree completely with Charles' post above. Partial preterism / preterism / and futurism are all incorrect from my perspective.

[Michael B]

Exactly what was that that I have not answered Milt? I am waiting for some questions.

[Michael B]

Face To Face - In The New Covenant

Believers were redeemed from the curse of the law by faith prior to 70 AD.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for (Heb 1).

You do not hope for what you have (Rom 8).

Prior to 70 AD - believers were only saved by faith / hope. That means that they did not have what they were hoping for yet. They only had it by faith.

Believers received the goal of their faith when the Old Covenant was removed. The goal of their faith (1Peter 1) was reconciliation with God, salvation, being "face to face". This would happen at the Revelation of Christ (the 2nd coming) (1 Peter 1).

Prior to 70 AD and the removal of the Old Covenant, saints that died went to Hades (Abrahams bosom) awaiting judgment. All of those that died in the faith prior to 70 AD died not having received what was promised (Heb 11)

Galatians 3
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Believers were redeemed from the law by faith.

But (as mentioned above) Faith is the substance of things hoped for (Heb 1).

You do not hope for what you have (Rom 8).

Galatians 3
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

Here we see that the Old Covenant law (the curse) had not yet been removed. Hebrews was written around 68 AD.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Below we see that "that which is perfect" is the New Covenant. In the New covenant is when we would be face to face with Jesus. When 1 Cor 13 is talking about "seeing in a mirror dimly" it is talking about the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was said to be a "shadow" of the good things to come.

By the way - if you believed that tongues ceased - then you must also believe that we are FACE TO FACE.

1 Corinthians 13
8Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies (OLD COVENANT), they will fail (NEW COVENANT); whether there are tongues (OLD COVENANT), they will cease (NEW COVENANT); whether there is knowledge (KNOWLEDGE IN PART / OLD COVENANT), it will vanish away (NEW COVENANT). 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part (OLD COVENANT). 10But when that which is perfect has come (NEW COVENANT), then that which is in part will be done away (OLD COVENANT).
11When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child (OLD COVENANT); but when I became a man, I put away childish things (NEW COVENANT). 12For now we see in a mirror, dimly (OLD COVENANT), but then face to face (NEW COVENANT). Now I know in part (OLD COVENANT / THINK SHADOWS), but then I shall know just as I also am known (NEW COVENANT).



Revelation 22
3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

Therefore: Since the Old Covenant (the curse) was removed at the destruction of Jerusalem. Since in the New Covenant we would be "face to face" this means that Revelation 22 was fulfilled at the arrival of the New Covenant.