I have to ask the basic question.

[ashamoun]

Hello everyone,

I grew up in a cultural Catholic family. About three years ago, I left the Catholic church and now attend a Protestant church. Even though I've been at my church for about 3 years, it has really only been about a year or so, that I would say I came to true faith. I've tried to consume as much information from the Bible and books that I can about God, to come to a better understanding. I admit I am still finding it difficult to comprehend his infinite sovereignty over all things, and also the depth of man's depravity. These are truths that are fairly new to me, and although I accept them, I can tell you that there have been nights where I lay awake trying to comprehend it all. I agree with the 5 points of Calvinism, but am still trying to figure out all the intracisies involved with each point (i.e. supra v. intra).

I tell you all this, because the learning of these truths have led to a very basic question. It's a question that may have a very simple answer, but I am not sure of it. That question: Why?

Why did God create the elect? Whatever the reason, why did he create us in sinful bodies? Why didn't he just create the elect in a manner in which he wants us to worship and obey him? If he hates sin, why create the reprobate?

I ask all of these questions being well aware of Romans 9. It is actually a chapter I read quite often as I struggle with these questions. I ask them not as a challenge to God for what he has created, or how he has created, but rather, I struggle trying to reason why God would create a people for whom he knew that he would eventually have to send Christ to die for. Why would God, who we know hates sin, create us knowing that he would have to send Christ to bear the sins of the elect?

I have spent a lot of time reading the threads on this forum, and know that this site is a great resource of information. I would like to thank you all in advance for the time you spend responding.

[wildboar]

God does all that He does for His own glory and for the good of His people. I don't think anyone could explain to you why every little thing happens which does happen. We are not God. But I believe this is the only Biblical explanation.

[JoToP]

Ashamoun,


I'll give a shot at speculative answers to your questions, but I'm going to lay down some provisa first. I agree with Wilboar that that when it comes to the inner counsels of God, we must ultimately bend to his infinite wisdom and leave it at that. On the other hand, serious students of God's Word will definitely play with such questions as you have posed. I certainly have and must admit that my answers have an open end in my lack of understanding his absolute holiness and eternality. Here are my provisos:

First, we must accept mystery in our consideration of God's inner counsels. (This speaks to our creatureliness) God is not man; that is a simple statement, but difficult for us to practice in our thinking because we see everything in terms of temporal/spatial reality and the tendency toward anthropomorphism. Many of our descriptions of God are negative, such as infinite, i.e. "not finite". In comparing God to ourselves we often must simply say what he is not in order to come to some terms of what he is. Even his holiness compares his moral perfection to our sinfulness. The positive terms for God are even more difficult because they are not comparitive to our condition, i.e. "eternal". Think of our dilemma like this: If your dog could think, what would it think about you. It would probably caninomorphize you fromt he beginning, think of you as an odd-looking dog. But because you are not in fact a dog, you would be always doing things that mystified your dog and were incomprehensible to it. Getting in your car and driving away... what reference would your dog have for understanding what you are doing? You are not eating, sleeping, mating, or doing all of the simple things involved in the economy of the pack. The "enlightened mutt" will have to accept that what you are doing is beyond the realm of canine comprehension and leave it at that. We are in this dilemma where the knowledge of God is concerned. Where he is non-communicable to our creaturely experience, we must accept him as he reveals himself and we must accept what he does and why he does it as beyond our understanding. If we do this, we exercise faith. If we do not, we are attempting to rationalize him and are both pulling him down toward our standard in our thinking, and, at once,, elevating ourselves to his level, which is where the true sin of rationalism has its basis.
Secondly, we must allow ourselves to be moved out of the center. (This speaks to the Fall.) Because of sin, we tend to set all of reality in orbit around ourselves egocentrically. The natural mind places the self in the center and causes all particulars to stand in some relation to the self. This is the seat of pride. Even as Christians gorwing in grace, our life's careeris one of dethoning ourselves, so to speak. Our approach to Scripture is often initially tainted by an androcentric interpretation. The reason we need the Holy Spirit's guidance is so that he may apply the enabling grace we need to see ourselves as peripheral in the total movement of God's scheme in Creation and Redemption. He did all of this with full intention and commitment. Nothing has gone wrong, everything is moving according to his design. Even sin.
As to your questions:
"Why did God create the elect?" The Bible simply says he chose his own people to himself "according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will". (Eph. 1:11) This basically means that he elected the elect because that is a thing that God does. The fact that election is a difficult concept for man is because we are not God and because we are basically androcentric from the Fall. God simply has not chosen to tell us why he has done this, but expects us to accept that he, being the Creator of mankind, is perfectly priviledged to use or dispose of mankind as he sees fit. Seeing that he may do as he pleases with that which is his, we see that it is grace operating in election.
"Whatever the reason, why did he create us in sinful bodies?" The Bible teaches that his making unrighteous people into righteous people unto himself is a magnification and manifestation of his glory.
Ephes. 3:14-19 (ESV)
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, [15] from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, [16] that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, [17] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, [18] may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, [19] and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
"Why didn't he just create the elect in a manner in which he wants us to worship and obey him?" Right away, we can say that God is in no need of our worship and obedience, therefore, it is clear that he did not create mankind to fulfill a need for worship. Creating man and the conditions in which he lived with a full view that man would fall into sin was always God's intention. We can say this with great confidence because that is precisely what happened. In order to show forth his magnified glory through the redemption of sinful men, it was necessary for man to fall into sin. Where there is no sin, there is no need of a Redeemer. Christ is the glory of God in the revelation of his grace.
"If he hates sin, why create the reprobate?" God's hatred of sin is perfect and pure. The angels and saints in heaven sing songs about his wrath and judgment. It is glorious in its manifestation. The destruction of the wicked is an exercise in divine justice and is a thing to be marvelled over. Romans 9:22-24 (ESV)
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— [24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

I do not propose these things in the hopes that it will clear up these issues. Even as I write, the mystery of these things weighs heavily upon me. I hope it helps, though. The key is, its not about us, its about God.

[Brandan Kraft]

Great posts JoTop and Charles- I agree!

a few more rambling thoughts...

God's will is the ultimate reason behind everthing - His purpose is to exalt and glorify Himself. Adam fell into sin so that he and his elect posterity would be redeemed by Christ and God would be glorified in the whole process. The same goes for the reprobate sons of Adam - they were created as sinful beings so that God would be glorified in their damnation.

Carnal men do not like the idea of God electing men to salvation and damnation because they think everyone should have a 'chance' to be saved - basically, there is a rebellion between men and their creator, and men have placed themselves on the thrones and hate the thought of someone ruling over them.

Brandan

[lionovjudah]

Carnal men do not like the idea of God electing men to salvation and damnation because they think everyone should have a 'chance' to be saved - basically, there is a rebellion between men and their creator, and men have placed themselves on the thrones and hate the thought of someone ruling over them.

Brandan[/QUOTE]

True Brandan. You know what else I find ironic. Is some believers have a harder time understanding the Sovereignty of God than non believers. I rarely here one who is a non believer deny His Sovereignty. But tell some Believers God provided 100% of their salvation, they will kick against that statement.

Ashmoun, All I will add to your questions is be happy you have them. Faith is seeking understanding and people who think they can provide every answer to everything, is a fool. Rest in the fact that "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, and those revealed belong to us and our children." Deut 29;29. Only go where God has shed light, beyond that will only cause confusion and anxiety. All our understanding will be revealed to us by His Spirit, not by man. God is God and were are but grasshoppers. Once a person has everything figured out, there is no need for God anymore.

Boar, Gill, Jotop are all correct. God does as He pleases because He is the potter and we are the clay. Everything is for His glory. I am more amazed at why anyone is saved, rather than Why create the elect.

Joe

[Brandan Kraft]

True Brandan. You know what else I find ironic. Is some believers have a harder time understanding the Sovereignty of God than non believers.

I would say these people aren't believers. I realize that Christians can be rebellious even after conversion but anyone who does not understand that God can save to the uttermost those that believe has not realized his need for salvation - he has not seen his sin for what it is - he has not experienced his total depravity in the dust before the Almighty. (going back to the "pharasee" thread). If a person doesn't understand that God is absolutely sovereign, what kind of salvation is that!?!? It puts at least some aspect of salvation in the hands of men - this is why freewillism and conditional calvinism is so wrong.

I rarely here one who is a non believer deny His Sovereignty.

They deny it in thought, words, and deeds. They count the blood of covenant of grace as nothing. All unbelievers deny God's sovereignty in every aspect of their lives.

But tell some Believers God provided 100% of their salvation, they will kick against that statement.

Lion, they're not believers. They may have a belief in some deity, but they are not resting in the righteousness of the Lord almight for 100% of their salvation, thus exposing them as peddlers of Babylon.

Brandan

[lionovjudah]

They deny it in thought, words, and deeds. They count the blood of covenant of grace as nothing. All unbelievers deny God's sovereignty in every aspect of their lives.

Lion, they're not believers. They may have a belief in some deity, but they are not resting in the righteousness of the Lord almight for 100% of their salvation, thus exposing them as peddlers of Babylon.

Brandan[/QUOTE]

Maybe I was nto explaining myself clear enough. Lets take a person who has never been enlightened with the Doctrines of Grace. I cannot say they are not believers. As you have said, God has His elect everywhere, and will bring them into His house when He gathers them. I am trying to make the point that a non believer, is more open to election and Sovereignty than some people who believe in free will. Again, I am not trying to come up woith a new theology, just responding to ashound. Debate with a free willer about election, then speak to a non believer about it... The free willer will argue with all his effort, the nonbeliever presented with election is given hope.. I always say, If God can save me, He can save anyone. I do not want to digress here into a line drawing believer vs non believer because of doctrine again. For we all know there is a road to hell for the sovereign grace believer as there is for the free willer. I am making a very on the surface observation. Not going deep at all here. Just look at the history from Paul, to Auggie, to Gottshalck, to the reformers, to the present day. This debate has been going on for centuries. And those ardent pelagians will kick against the Sovereignty of God in everything. But watch the Spirit work on a vile, blackened sinner, who finally is brought to Gethsemane and Calvary with only His sin,and When He is washed by Soverign Love , grace, that person has been brought from death over to life, and you will see one who will serve the Lord with all his heart. I think i am digressing and I am sorry. I forgot my train of thought.

Joe

[ashamoun]

"If God can save me, He can save anyone" ---quote, lionofjudah

AMEN!!!!!

All of your replies have been truly helpful. Lion's quote above sums up the purpose of my search in a nutshell. God chose me, and only God knows why. I don't pretend to understand it, and I am coming to the point where I realize that I need to stop wondering "Why me, I am a sinful nothing" and instead spend that time thanking God for the grace he has bestowed to me.

I truly do appreciate the responses from people on this board.

[lionovjudah]

"If God can save me, He can save anyone" ---quote, lionofjudah

AMEN!!!!!

All of your replies have been truly helpful. Lion's quote above sums up the purpose of my search in a nutshell. God chose me, and only God knows why. I don't pretend to understand it, and I am coming to the point where I realize that I need to stop wondering "Why me, I am a sinful nothing" and instead spend that time thanking God for the grace he has bestowed to me.

I truly do appreciate the responses from people on this board.

May God bless you brother. Election should never be a road block to sinners, infact it is more comforting than free willism.

Grace and peace

Joe

[Brandan Kraft]

it is more comforting than free willism.

I find zero comfort in freewillism and consider it to be a damnable wicked doctrine. I hate it more than just about anything!

[Mickey]

Wow ashamoun, you sound just like me just a few months ago. For me it was like getting over a hump, and once I did, I was liberated. I mean really freed knowing that I was in the hands of a loving, soveriegn, just God who has saved me for eternity. Its just the beginning thats hard, but I'm sure--as many here can attest to--the struggles will continue until glory. Here is a thread I started one night as I was struggling with pretty much the same thing you are: http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=1698.

Note the date I posted it. It wasn't that long ago but the brothers and sisters here have been a huge encouragement for me. My friend, God is faithful and He grants His children understanding in His time according to His good pleasure. So I have no doubt that if you indeed are His child that He will bless you with understanding and peace. There is some good stuff in that thread that I'm sure will inspire you to dig into things you haven't thought of yet. Also it will aid in putting some pieces together in the theological puzzle it can sometimes be. May God be with you.

Mike

[ashamoun]

http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=1698.


Mike

FANTASTIC THREAD MIKE!!!!!

[lionovjudah]

I find zero comfort in freewillism and consider it to be a damnable wicked doctrine. I hate it more than just about anything!

I think you need to get out more brandan....hahahahahahaah
I owe myself fifty bucks because I new you would reply like this!!!!!

Joe

[doctr_of_grace]

I think you need to get out more brandan....hahahahahahaah
I owe myself fifty bucks because I new you would reply like this!!!!!

Lion ... How else should a believer respond to the "man made" religion of arminianism? Keep in mind that only two religions exist on this planet ... they may go by many names but the core of them is man centered. Arminianism is a denial of the gospel. A denial of Scripture and even more damning a denial of God.
I 110% agree with Darth Gill on this issue. You need to come to terms with the fact that there is only ONE gospel only ONE truth and it has nothing at all to do with "doctrinal regeneration". God saves from every tribe, tongue and nation. The Holy Spirit does lead all the elect to truth and knowledge. An arminian that is truly an arminian isn't believing in the same God that I believe in. It is just too plain easy to accuse the mormons or the jw's of heretical beliefs while embracing arminians because they sorta understand truth ... hmmmm seems obvious to me.

But then again I am one of those hard core types when it comes to God's Word.

Take your wife out to dinner on the fifty bucks !!!! hahaha She will enjoy it.

Out for now ... Jan

[lionovjudah]

Jan::::

GEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Everyone is sooo starched at times. Lighten up a little Jan. Now your ending was funny, I liked that alot. I only meant it as a quip to brandon. I am not taking this thread to the Arminian vs Calvinist debate Jan. The Spirit has led me to know one truth, And that truth is Jesus Christ.

WHy are some soooo serious ALL the time? I have two kids that keep me laughing and joking. You could have left out everything else you wrote in your reply except for the "Take my wife out to dinner" quip and I would have loved it. I also believe Christ must have laughed some.

Grace and Peace

Joe

[Brandan Kraft]

I also believe Christ must have laughed some.

The only laughing I read about by Christ is He will laugh at the wicked on the day of judgment (Prov. 1:26-27). Wasn't Jesus a "man of sorrows?"

"Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh ... Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep" (Luke 6:21, 25).

[Brandan Kraft]

I believe laughter is a part of experiencing the joy of Christ, but when discussing false religion, the only laughter that should be a part of the discussion is the scornful laugh. I take comfort in the passage I posted above as I now have received joy and laugh because I have renewed by the Spirit. Those who haven't have no reason to laugh whatsoever.

[lionovjudah]

The only laughing I read about by Christ is He will laugh at the wicked on the day of judgment (Prov. 1:26-27). Wasn't Jesus a "man of sorrows?"

"Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh ... Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep" (Luke 6:21, 25).

Brandan, if He experienced everything we experience, if He was truly 100% human, then He laughed. Why are we digressing here? DO you think for one second when Christ told the Children to come to Him, He was sad? full of sorrow? Telling them about election? Now come on. I am not saying Christ ever said, "Hey you here about the Pharisse that......" I am saying Christ smiled, He loved, He laughed, He ate, He was not a dead Savior. He is life!!!!!!!!! And life is more than living a monastic, secluded life of tears and serious rantings of judgement.

Do you ever smile? DO you ever laugh? Do you ever just enjoy life with excitement? That is all I am saying. Do you ever just dance naked for the Lord like David? I have and will continue to do so.


Joe

[Brandan Kraft]

Do you ever smile? DO you ever laugh? Do you ever just enjoy life with excitement? That is all I am saying. Do you ever just dance naked for the Lord like David? I have and will continue to do so.

Well, what I'm trying to say is the Lord did not joke around If He did, we would read about it in Scripture. Of course people smile - it's a natural human reaction. My baby's first response outside of crying was laughing. So if Jesus was like any other baby, I suppose He laughed as well. But it was a natural laugh, not a contrived one.

You ask why is everyone so serious...

Eph 5:4, (KJV), Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Hey, I'm all about having fun and enjoying the goodness of God. I like to listen to music, enjoy playing sports, and what not. However, when it comes to discussion of the Gospel and the doctrines of the Bible, I do not believe these things are a joking matter.

Brandan

[lionovjudah]

I believe laughter is a part of experiencing the joy of Christ, but when discussing false religion, the only laughter that should be a part of the discussion is the scornful laugh. I take comfort in the passage I posted above as I now have received joy and laugh because I have renewed by the Spirit. Those who haven't have no reason to laugh whatsoever.

Well I take no comfort whatsoever in a scornful laugh. Because if not for the Grace of God I would be lost also. NEVER replace yourself in Scripture when the Lord is speaking of Himself. If scripture says the Lord will laugh at their destruction, do not replace that with a command we must also. I am nothign but saddenned for the lost. Salvation is not entitlement or reason to laugh scornfully at others brandan. See we have digressed into a division line again. All because I made a funny quip. Enough. Lets edify ashamound and stop this sillyness.

Joe