Bill Ross and his beliefs....

[Bill Ross]

<Rev. Houck>
>>....While justification has to do with our legal state before God, sanctification has to do with our actual condition. We are freed from the guilt of sin by justification, but we are still sinners. Sin still abides within the child of God so that even the best of his good works are defiled by it. In sanctification, however, God's people are delivered from the power and dominion of sin....

<Bill Ross>
This does not appear to be scriptural to me at all.

Justification is not granted to an unrepentant sinner. God does not declare one just while that one is persisting in sin. The believer is said to be free from sin, and his actions holy and acceptable to God. Sanctification is not some future event or even process in the life of the believer. A believer is consecrated to God as they place they trust in God.

Bill Ross

[wildboar]

This does not appear to be scriptural to me at all.

Justification is not granted to an unrepentant sinner. God does not declare one just while that one is persisting in sin. The believer is said to be free from sin, and his actions holy and acceptable to God.

So the believer no longer sins? How long has it been since you sinned? Everything that you have done today you have done completely to the glory of God?

[wildboar]

If we were not justified Christ would not have been raised. (This isn't what Rev. Houck is talking about. Rev. Houck is speaking of subjective justification but I just thought I'd throw this in).

Romans 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

[Bill Ross]

So the believer no longer sins?

<Bill>
Wildboar, check this out:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}

The point of 1 John is to argue from the earthly life of Jesus that:

* God is light, sans darkness
* the believer does not sin
* Jesus was not God, but rather a man
* the believer's paradigm is Jesus

The idea that Jesus was superman but believers are men, or that God deals with men on a "spiritual level" and does not take into account their actual conduct, is all wrong.

Bill Ross

[wildboar]

BR:

Once again, how long has it been since you sinned?

[Bill Ross]

wildboar, while I appreciate your question, this is an exegetical question, not one of experience.

Bill Ross

[wildboar]

Nobody who makes the claim you do seems to want to answer this question. So it leads me to believe that either you are wrong in your interpretation or there really aren't any Christians living today. The twisting of Romans 7 which is necessary for this interpretation is quite sad.

[Bill Ross]

wildboar, exegesis is not dictated by experience. Do you measure biblical prayer by your own prayer experience? What about unity? Is it to be taught by the example of Churches - even within a given denomination?

Paul, while confident in his own faithfulness, refrained from such evaluation:

1 Cor 4:
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. {judgment: Gr. day}
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. {know: or, I am not conscious of any fault}
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Clearly, rather than imagining immunity from judgment because he was "the elect" he believed that he would be held accountable for every action:

Ro 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

His faithfulness with his own body, not just his preaching, was what he believed would make him acceptable to God:

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

He admonished all to have the same thinking:

Philippians 3:
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Those of another mind were clearly examples of the wicked lost, regardless of any other trappings of piety they might exhibit:

Phil 3:
17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Of course, the gospels declare the same, as does Hebrews etc:

Mt 12:
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

So tell me, wildboar, how your read Romans 7 to describe wicked, unholy believers?

Bill Ross

[doctr_of_grace]

Bill ... I am just not clear on your thinking ...

Are you saying that once a person is a believer they no longer are able to sin?
or
Are you saying that once a person is a believer they have to live a "sinless" life?
According to what standard?

Thanks for clearing that up .... Jan

[Brandan Kraft]

Bill ... I am just not clear on your thinking ...

Are you saying that once a person is a believer they no longer are able to sin?
or
Are you saying that once a person is a believer they have to live a "sinless" life?
According to what standard?

Thanks for clearing that up .... Jan

Bill Ross doesn't even believe in the deity of Christ if I recall - just a warning because if you get into it with him, you're gonna go tumbling way down that rabbit hole.

[Bill Ross]

<Jan>
>>...Bill ... I am just not clear on your thinking ...

<Bill>
Hey, that makes two of us!

<Jan>
>>Are you saying that once a person is a believer they no longer are able to sin?

<Bill>
I am saying that 1 John explicitly states that sinning is antethetical to being born of God. That is, he is saying that as light and darkness are unable to occupy the same space, neither can a sinning person possibly have fellowship with God. It is only if one confesses and forsakes their sins that one will find mercy.

<Jan>
>>...or
Are you saying that once a person is a believer they have to live a "sinless" life?

<Bill>
Yes.

<Jan>
>>According to what standard?

<Bill>
The scriptures use many phrases to speak of the life of the believer and they are all suitable to answer your question:

holiness, the law of love, the law of faith, the law of christ, the law of the breath, the good fight, the race, the narrow way, keeping one´s hand to the plow, not looking back, being a faithful servant, every word, doing all to the glory of God, etc.

<Jan>
>>Thanks for clearing that up .... Jan

<Bill>
You are quite welcome.

Perhaps Wildboar will return the favor and explain how the believer is ever sinning with impunity?

Bill Ross

[doctr_of_grace]

I am saying that 1 John explicitly states that sinning is antethetical to being born of God. That is, he is saying that as light and darkness are unable to occupy the same space, neither can a sinning person possibly have fellowship with God. It is only if one confesses and forsakes their sins that one will find mercy.

So from this statement I believe you are denying that after conversion a person still struggles with his/her own sin nature?

What say you about Romans 7?

I would agree that while a person is sucked into sin through temptation etc they have indeed lost their fellowship with God. But I also believe that the scripture teaches us that God will never forsake one of his sheep. The Holy Spirit seems to do a pretty darn good job with me .... When I am being a sinful person He shows me my sin and my need for confession and forgiveness.

Interesting enough ... we are doing a study on the WCF and in fact under Chpt 5 section 5 this very issue is somewhat addressed ...

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave, for a season, his own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.

So there is purpose for God even in our sin.

Bill ... Would you deny this?

Bill Ross doesn't even believe in the deity of Christ if I recall - just a warning because if you get into it with him, you're gonna go tumbling way down that rabbit hole.

I am guessing you have been around for some time ... If in fact you deny the Deity of Christ then your ability to understand and exegeses scripture is definately impaired by a carnel and unspiritual mind. I have ZERO desire to go down rabbit trails that always end up at the end of a deep hole in the ground hahaha. A simply yes or no response will be sufficient.

Well just a couple of comments before I am off for the monday grind....Jan

[Bill Ross]

<Jan>
>>So from this statement I believe you are denying that after conversion a person still struggles with his/her own sin nature?

<Bill>
The concept of a "sin nature" is unbiblical.

<J>
>>What say you about Romans 7?

<B>
It is a description of a person who is attempting to live a life pleasing to God but by the Torah. This of course segues into Romans 8, where the new approach is described.

<J>
>>I would agree that while a person is sucked into sin through temptation etc they have indeed lost their fellowship with God. But I also believe that the scripture teaches us that God will never forsake one of his sheep.

<B>
So are you saying that some of God's sheep are wicked?

<J>
>>The Holy Spirit seems to do a pretty darn good job with me .... When I am being a sinful person He shows me my sin and my need for confession and forgiveness.

<B>
There is no "Holy Spirit". The scriptures only speak of "holy breath." That is, the breath that God breathed into Adam, and breaths into the believer. The breath that is his word.

So are you free from sin or persisting in sin?

<J>
>>Interesting enough ... we are doing a study on the WCF and in fact under Chpt 5 section 5 this very issue is somewhat addressed ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCF chapter 5 section V
V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave, for a season, his own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.

So there is purpose for God even in our sin.

Bill ... Would you deny this?

<B>
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: {evil: or, evils}

<J>
>>...I am guessing you have been around for some time ... If in fact you deny the Deity of Christ then your ability to understand and exegeses scripture is definately impaired by a carnel and unspiritual mind.

<B>
Where is the "Deity of Christ" mentioned in scripture??

Jan, do you find any fault in my exposition? In what way does Romans 7 contradict anything I have said??

Why are you turning to ad hominem attacks, rather than addressing the scriptures I have cited?

Bill Ross

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

Where is the "Deity of Christ" mentioned in scripture??

Col 2:8-11, (KJV)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Jn 1:1, 14 (KJV),
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jn 1:14, (KJV),
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Tim 3:16, (KJV),
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


The words "deity of Christ" may not be found side by side, but neither is "trinity", "holy bible", or "redeemed sinner".

[doctr_of_grace]

Bill ... where is my ad hominem attack? I merely stated a fact. A person who denies the Deity of Christ is not regenerate and therefore carnal in their thinking and it is impossible for them to understand spiritual things.

The concept of a "sin nature" is unbiblical.

Are you saying this merely because "sin" and "nature" aren't found together in scripture? If that is indeed the case and I believe that to be so then you are arguing against concepts and this particular concept is very clearly stated. The condition of mankind is one of sinfulness and deceitfulness and the utter and complete inability to do anything pleasing to God.

(Rom 3:12 KJV) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Eph 2:1-3 KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Rom 5:12 KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Titus 1:15 KJV) Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

I am saying Mr Bill ... That the reason I need a savior is because I am incapable of saving myself. And yep the sheep are in fact sinners. Christ died to save sinners not the righteous ... (Mark 2:17 KJV) When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

As I can now see I am dealing with a carnal unregenerate mind I see that this is a futile exercise. So Mr Bill .... until you show me you have in fact repented and believed the Gospel I am done engaging you in conversation. For it is a waste of not only my time but yours as well.

Out .... Jan

[Bill Ross]

<UglyGauntCow>
>>...The words "deity of Christ" may not be found side by side, but neither is "trinity", "holy bible", or "redeemed sinner".

<Bill>
This is why you should never use the terms above. These are unscriptural.

Does it not bother you when all of your theology is not found in the bible?

OK, so these are your proof texts. Notice that there is a much simpler explanation for each, other than the absurd 3 god equals one concept:

Col 2:8-11, (KJV)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The word translated "godhead" is better translated "knowledge of God" or "theology." This is how it is used in the LXX!

Jn 1:1, 14 (KJV),
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The verse above does not mention Jesus. It would be better translated as:

"In the beginning was the message, and the message was for God's sake, and "God" was the message.

Jn 1:14, (KJV),
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Again, the message was embodied in Jesus.

1 Tim 3:16, (KJV),
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The reading "God" has no textual support. Please note the modern translation...:

1Ti 3:16

(ALT) And confessedly, great is the secret [or, mystery] of godliness: God was revealed in flesh, justified [or, shown to be righteous] in spirit [or, by [the] Spirit], seen by angels, preached among [the] nations [or, Gentiles], believed on in [the] world, taken up in glory!

(ASV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

(BBE) And without argument, great is the secret of religion: He who was seen in the flesh, who was given God's approval in the spirit, was seen by the angels, of whom the good news was given among the nations, in whom the world had faith, who was taken up in glory.

(CEV) Here is the great mystery of our religion: Christ came as a human. The Spirit proved that he pleased God, and he was seen by angels. Christ was preached to the nations. People in this world put their faith in him, and he was taken up to glory.

(Darby) And confessedly the mystery of piety is great. God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory.


(DRB) And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.

(FLS) Et, sans contredit, le mystère de la piété est grand: celui qui a été manifesté en chair, justifié par l'Esprit, vu des anges, prêché aux Gentils, cru dans le monde, élevé dans la gloire.

(GNB) No one can deny how great is the secret of our religion: He appeared in human form, was shown to be right by the Spirit, and was seen by angels. He was preached among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, and was taken up to heaven.

(GNT) καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶ τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν Πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.

(GW) The mystery that gives us our reverence for God is acknowledged to be great: He appeared in his human nature, was approved by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was announced throughout the nations, was believed in the world, and was taken to heaven in glory.

(HOT)

(ISV) By common confession, the secret of our godly worship is great: In flesh was he revealed to sight, Kept righteous by the Spirit's might, Adored by angels singing. To nations was he manifest, Believing souls found peace and rest, Our Lord in heaven reigning!

(KJV+) And2532 without controversy3672 great3173 is2076 the3588 mystery3466 of godliness:2150 God2316 was manifest5319 in1722 the flesh,4561 justified1344 in1722 the Spirit,4151 seen3700 of angels,32 preached2784 unto1722 the Gentiles,1484 believed on4100 in1722 the world,2889 received up353 into1722 glory.1391

(KJVA) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(LITV) And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

(New World Translation) Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: 'He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in [the] world, was received up in glory.'

(Vulgate) et manifeste magnum est pietatis sacramentum quod manifestatum est in carne iustificatum est in spiritu apparuit angelis praedicatum est gentibus creditum est in mundo adsumptum est in gloria

(WNT) And, beyond controversy, great is the mystery of our religion-- that Christ appeared in human form, and His claims justified by the Spirit, was seen by angels and proclaimed among Gentile nations, was believed on in the world, and received up again into glory.

(YLT) and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety--God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!


So, your prooftexts are all specious. You believe it because it is Catholic dogma. It is time to get over it and be biblical.

Bill Ross

[Bill Ross]

<Jan>
>>Bill ... where is my ad hominem attack? I merely stated a fact. A person who denies the Deity of Christ is not regenerate and therefore carnal in their thinking and it is impossible for them to understand spiritual things.

<Bill>
Where is the concept that if one denies the "Deity of Christ" then one is not regenerate? That is your own bogus assertion, not scriptures.

So, like I said, you are merely making up this ad hominem attack.

<J>
>>...Are you saying this merely because "sin" and "nature" aren't found together in scripture? If that is indeed the case and I believe that to be so then you are arguing against concepts and this particular concept is very clearly stated.

<B>
Where? The verses you cite do not refer to a carnal nature, and certainly not in the terms that Calvinists like to assert.

<J>
The condition of mankind is one of sinfulness and deceitfulness and the utter and complete inability to do anything pleasing to God.

(Rom 3:12 KJV) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

<B>
Romans 3:12 refers specifically to Jews at a particular time, not to all men at all times.

<J>
>>(Eph 2:1-3 KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

<B>
You should probably get a better translation, or at least consult the Greek more. The better translation is this...:

"...even you, being dead to the trespasses and sins in which you once walked according to the prince of the authority of the air of the breath that now operates in the children of disobedience. Among these also we all had similar conduct in the past acting by the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of our flesh and our minds and were in our character people who warrant wrath, even like the others."

<J>
>>(Rom 5:12 KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

<B>
Yep. Death, not "Hell." But it is *death* that passed through to all men, not a "sinful nature."

<J>
>>(Titus 1:15 KJV) Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

<B>
Nothing congenital there.

<J>
>>I am saying Mr Bill ... That the reason I need a savior is because I am incapable of saving myself.

<B>
Yes you are. By faith:

Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Mt 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Mr 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Mr 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way. {made…: or, saved thee}
Lu 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Lu 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Lu 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Lu 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made [middle voice - "make ourselves"] the righteousness of God in him.

<J>
>>And yep the sheep are in fact sinners. Christ died to save sinners not the righteous ... (Mark 2:17 KJV) When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

<B>
Er, did you miss the part of "to repentance?" In your view, can one be both healed by the physician and yet still sick?

<J>
>>As I can now see I am dealing with a carnal unregenerate mind I see that this is a futile exercise. So Mr Bill .... until you show me you have in fact repented and believed the Gospel I am done engaging you in conversation. For it is a waste of not only my time but yours as well.
Out .... Jan

<B>
The coward's path...

Bill Ross

[disciple]

The word translated "godhead" is better translated "knowledge of God" or "theology." This is how it is used in the LXX!

please provide your justification for this. i personally think a better rendering is "divine nature," "deity," "divinity" etc. i believe it is speaking of a quality or essense and not a subject or idea (e.g., knowledge, theology). to quote carl conrad over at B-Greek (http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b...ne/006041.html):

-THS nouns in Greek, like -TAS nouns in Latin, are abstracts based upon an adjective and refer to quality rather than entity; thus QEOTHS should be understood to mean "what it is be be a god" or "the quality of being a god."

he also goes on to say:

One may then go on, if one wishes, and apply that in monotheistic terms, as "what it is to be God" or "the quality of being God"--but it is still erroneous, in my opinion, to equate this with QEOS or KURIOS in the sense of a name. We tend in English to use the term "the Deity" as an equivalent of "God." I simply do not think that, even with the article, hH QEOTHS is used like that in Greek. Consequently I think that in Col 2:9 the meaning is rather that "in him dwells bodily the entire fullness of 'what it is to be a god.'" One may then, if one chooses, understand that monotheistically, but even so, I think, one ought to
realize that the Greek text is not talking about a divine person as a divine person but about the quality of being a god.

Jn 1:1, 14 (KJV),
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The verse above does not mention Jesus. It would be better translated as:

"In the beginning was the message, and the message was for God's sake, and "God" was the message.

please give your justification for translating PROS TON QEON as "for God's sake." thanks.

[disciple]

...in our character people who warrant wrath...

please provide justification for translating TEKNA FUSEI ORGHS this way. i take it you are giving more of a DE translation here.

how do you get "character" out of FUSEI? could/would you translate FUSIS this way anywhere else in the NT? as far as i can tell, FUSIS always has such things as nature, origin, instinct, etc. in mind.

what justification do you have for translating the genitive ORGHS as a relative clause "who warrant wrath." thanks!

[lionovjudah]

Disciple:

May I plagerize your awesome sentence starter of "PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR JUSTIFICATION" fo this and that. I will ask anyone who talks to me that question. I can see you with hand massaging your chin, forhead crinkled, Stern eyes. you should trademark that ...


Joe