Saved or Lost?

[Brandan Kraft]

Why do we refer to everyone who's not a Christian as "lost?" Seriously - do we know if they are lost or not? What I mean is you have to be a sheep to be lost don't you? What about goats - can they be "lost" too? I don't think so... So why the terminology? - BJK

[lionovjudah]

Why do we refer to everyone who's not a Christian as "lost?" Seriously - do we know if they are lost or not? What I mean is you have to be a sheep to be lost don't you? What about goats - can they be "lost" too? I don't think so... So why the terminology? - BJK

I have noticed the opposite here. Those that are Christians are just as lost if the DNA does not match perfectly to the 72 points of doctrine prescribed.

The terminology is used because Christ used it. He came to seek and save those who are lost. The lost sheep of the house of Israel. The goats will never think themselves lost. So in order to determine if Christ is seeking and saving you, you have to be led by His Spirit to know you are lost. Until then, you have no allotment to His blood. To use the metaphor. If a MAN IS IN A ROW BOAT OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SEA. He will nto consider himself lost because he has some bread and water and knows he is strong enough to row himself back to shore. Only until the Spirit brings that person to the point of saying "I will certainly perish if God does not save me" but we resist that because of our stupid pride. We are like the little engine that could. I think I can I think I can I think I can. With that attitude towrds self power, you have no alotment in the blood of atonement. zippo...


Joe

[Brandan Kraft]

I have noticed the opposite here. Those that are Christians are just as lost if the DNA does not match perfectly to the 72 points of doctrine prescribed.

Wrong buckaroo! I don't anyone who here that does that!

The terminology is used because Christ used it. He came to seek and save those who are lost. The lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Not everyone is a lost sheep though. Men use it to refer to everyone that's not a Christian - thus implying that everyone is a sheep. Big mistake!

The goats will never think themselves lost.

That's because they aren't.

So in order to determine if Christ is seeking and saving you, you have to be led by His Spirit to know you are lost. Until then, you have no allotment to His blood.

I disagree with this. I believe men were clothed by Christ before they were even born - they just didn't see their clothing.

- BJK

[lionovjudah]

Wrong buckaroo! I don't anyone who here that does that!

You are kidding me right? Brandan please, we have gone down this road many times. It is a prevalient disposition in here by some.

Not everyone is a lost sheep though. Men use it to refer to everyone that's not a Christian - thus implying that everyone is a sheep. Big mistake!

Without Gods grace we are all lost. So not a big mistake at all.


That's because they aren't.> the goats

Well what are they then? hiding or missing?

I disagree with this. I believe men were clothed by Christ before they were even born - they just didn't see their clothing.

Thats because God had not applied it yet. Arnt we all born in iniquity? Arnt we all sinners? This Secret council in eternity dominates your theology brandan. This dominating theme of eternity past takes the life out of scripture. Christ said He came to seek and save those who are lost, Died for us while we were yet sinners. Seeking the lost sheep. The prdigal who once was lost and now is found. I mean to say that everything has been prdestined is true, but to exclude the life of the Word ruins Gods covenant with His creation. Disagree if you CHOOSE. I mite as well not study or read anymore brandan. Just rest in the secret coucil from eternity past. God has had real time encounters with peoples. real time. He didnt raise lazarus from the dead in eternity. That was a real event. He didnt heal the blind man in eternity, that was a real event. We are lost, we are not born saved, then fall from grace. LOST LOST LOST. And until we arew broght to reaLIZE THAT, THEN WE HAVE NO ALOTMENT IN THE BLOOD. He spoke to the prophets in real time. Look at the history. I dont know what you would disagree with. There is a big difference between Gods eternal predestination of events in His own mind, compared to the actual realization that we experience. I mean what do you do with all the scriptures that I posted? Why would Christ say all He said? Did He not come to seek and save those who were lost? Believing that men were clothed by Christ in eternity is a grandiose thought. But says little. Very DEEP thought, but scratches the surface. Sounds Great, awe inspiring, but means nothing to the sinner. If we were clothed with Christ, then why are we born sinners? We are not born saved, then need a savior brandan.... The Holy Spirit does nto apply His blood in eternity. That happens at His pleasure. I have so much more to say, but have a meeting. Or do I have a meeting? Hmm... didnt that meeting happen in eternity?


Grace and Peace

Joe

[Brandan Kraft]

You are kidding me right? Brandan please, we have gone down this road many times. It is a prevalient disposition in here by some.

I don't think so... I have seen just about everyone allow for disagreement on secondary issues. They only require agreement on the primary issue - the finished work of Christ.

Without Gods grace we are all lost. So not a big mistake at all.

Only the sheep are lost.

That's because they aren't.> the goats

Well what are they then? hiding or missing?

No, just wicked people created for and awaiting their eternal punishment that is due to them.

I disagree with this. I believe men were clothed by Christ before they were even born - they just didn't see their clothing.

Thats because God had not applied it yet. Arnt we all born in iniquity? Arnt we all sinners? This Secret council in eternity dominates your theology brandan. This dominating theme of eternity past takes the life out of scripture. Christ said He came to seek and save those who are lost, Died for us while we were yet sinners.

Did I even mention eternity in that phrase? No I did not. Did Christ save those who were lost? I think He DID - and He did it in time on the cross!

[lionovjudah]

I don't think so... I have seen just about everyone allow for disagreement on secondary issues. They only require agreement on the primary issue - the finished work of Christ.

This is like saying Bill Ross is not banned, he just cannot post. hahahahaha Perhaops a list of primary and secondary issues must be listed somehwere for all to see.


Only the sheep are lost.

I agree all are like sheep and have gone astray

Did I even mention eternity in that phrase? No I did not. Did Christ save those who were lost? I think He DID - and He did it in time on the cross!

You said before they were born. I can conclude that is eternity. Yes He did, but He is nto done seekign out those sheep of His given to Him by the father. And When the Holy Spirit regenerates and finds them and converets them, that is when the effectual power or GOd is realized. Past present and future./

[doctr_of_grace]

I have noticed the opposite here. Those that are Christians are just as lost if the DNA does not match perfectly to the 72 points of doctrine prescribed.

hahaha Joe .... It went from 67 points of doctrine to 72 points. I am still waiting for the list. .

I have been thinkin on this "lost" thing. I think that Goats are lost but will never be found. (at least by God). I do also believe that we must be very careful with our words.

Brandan you make an interesting point in suggesting that only sheep are lost. In a sense I completely agree with you. Yet I also believe it is fair to say that the unregenerate are lost from God as well as those that have passed on and are clearly reprobate. God desired them to be lost and not found. If you get what I mean.

Well just a few comments and Joe ... would love to read that list that keeps growing .

Grace and Peace out ... Jan

[Brandan Kraft]

Are the goats really lost? Or are they right where they were intended to be from the beginning? If goats are lost, that is to imply they are redeemable in my opinion.

[lionovjudah]

hahaha Joe .... It went from 67 points of doctrine to 72 points. I am still waiting for the list. .

hahahahahaha YOU CRACK ME UP JANY

I have been thinkin on this "lost" thing. I think that Goats are lost but will never be found. (at least by God). I do also believe that we must be very careful with our words.

Brandan you make an interesting point in suggesting that only sheep are lost. In a sense I completely agree with you. Yet I also believe it is fair to say that the unregenerate are lost from God as well as those that have passed on and are clearly reprobate. God desired them to be lost and not found. If you get what I mean.

Well just a few comments and Joe ... would love to read that list that keeps growing .

Grace and Peace out ... Jan

ASK BRANDAN FOR THE LIST.. IT IS HIS LIST JANY

[Brandan Kraft]

I only have one item in my list - salvation conditioned on Christ alone.

[lionovjudah]

I only have one item in my list - salvation conditioned on Christ alone.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Determined by 72 sub doctrines and DNA that must line up... You are the Dennis Fong of theology. A modern day Quincy.


Grace and Peace

Joe

[Brandan Kraft]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Determined by 72 sub doctrines and DNA that must line up... You are the Dennis Fong of theology. A modern day Quincy.

Not at all. You are confusing me with Carpenter. You do not have to express belief in a limited atonement to be a Christian!

[lionovjudah]

Not at all. You are confusing me with Carpenter. You do not have to express belief in a limited atonement to be a Christian!

Well, perhaps youre not a clone.

[harald]

My take on "lost". In Matt. 18:11 Jesus Christ says that He has come to save "that which was lost" (KJV). This "that which was lost" refers to all of God's elect as a whole and also individually. It does not refer to the non-elect(s), the reprobate(s). In this context it does not. The verb rendered "that which was lost" is the verb "apollumi", preceded by an article. Both are in the neuter gender, and the verb is in the perfect active participle, thus lit. "the thing having been lost". This same verb is in other places rendered e.g. "perish". The rendering "lost" is proper when the context contemplates God's chosen ones. In contexts where non-elects are considered it is proper to employ "perish" to translate the same verb. The "goats" are lost not in the same sense as the sheep of Christ. The goats are lost in the sense that they are "(ones) perishing of themselves" (lit. transl. of apollumenois in 1Cor.1:18). They are lost in the sense that they are bound and destined to suddenly perish sooner or later. They were not and thus cannot be saved because Christ did not redeem them.
I come to think of two verses (in KJV) where "lost" occurs where it pertains to some non-elect. The underlying verb is here (John 17:12, 2Cor.4:3) also "apollumi" (#622 according to Strong's numbering). In the John verse it is middle voice, aorist indicative - "lost himself", "brought perdition to himself" or something closely similar. In the Corinthians verse it is the same form as in 1Cor. 1:18 - "(ones) perishing of themselves". In the John verse Christ used the past tense although Judas was still alive when He spoke. But as His perishing was so certain He was warranted to use the past tense as though it had already come to pass. Or perhaps it should be rendered as a timeless aorist - "doth lose himself", "doth bring perdition to himself" (etc.).

God's elect, whosoever they be, have never been in real danger of going to perdition. In and of themselves considered they are deserving perdition, no denying. But inasmuch as God as Judge does not merely consider them in and of themselves, but rather as being "in Christ", they are never in real and actual danger of perishing. All non-elect, whosoever they be, are in real and actual danger of perishing. They are liable to be damned. And they will be so, irrevocably. Many have already been sent to hell.

God's elect were under legal condemnation until the cross. The legal "condemnation" pertaining to God's elect does not imply they were ever in actual or real danger of facing a sentence of damnation. In and of themselves they were worthy and deserving of a sentence of damnation, no denying. But the real and actual danger of it was never there, due to their being "in Christ" their Head from eternity by Divinely established union. The word rendered "condemnation" in Romans 5 is "katakrima". It derives (acc. to Zodhiates) from "katakrinoo" - "to judge against". Zodhiates defines the noun as "a decision against someone", "a condemnatory judgment". So it is a condemnatory sentence against someone, a legal such. For a person to be under such a Divine condemnatory sentence does not in and of itself mean that a final damning sentence inevitably follows. That is, if the person in question is "in Christ". The sentence of condemnation spoken of by Paul in Romans 5 is not the same as "damnation". Damnation is the ultimate sentence against one, which can never be revoked. The sentence of condemnation could be and was revoked with respect to God's chosen ones. It was passed upon or against them in time when Adam fell, and was revoked at the cross when Christ had drunk damnation dry. The sentence of condemnation was also passed upon the non elect, and cannot and will not be revoked, therefore they will undergo the ultimate sentence, damnation, and will perish eternally in the lake of fire, to the praise of God's justice.


Harald