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Thread: Luther On the Depravity of Man

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    Luther On the Depravity of Man

    This passage from Luther shows us how wonderous God's grace is and also provides one of the most vivid descriptions of the depravity of man and of those who try to approach God with their own righteousness.


    And from His fullness have we all received, grace upon grace.

    This is one of the golden texts in St. John’s Gospel; it is on a par with the one which we have already discussed: The Son of God is “the true Light, which lights every man that cometh into the world.” Therefore whoever does not acknowledge Christ and believe in Him, and does not make Him his own, is and remains a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3) and of damnation, no matter what he is called or what he is. But if man is to find mercy, Christ alone must be the means. He alone makes us paupers rich with His superabundance, expunges our sins with His righteousness, devours our death with His life, and transforms us from children of wrath, tainted with sin, hypocrisy, lies, and deceit, into children of grace and truth. Whoever does not possess this Man possesses nothing.

    Thus St. John the Baptist takes all of mankind from the world’s beginning until the Day of Judgment collectively and passes one verdict on all, namely, that they are liars by nature and without grace. But at the same time he suggests a remedy. “Behold,” he says, “you will receive a blessed, comforting Preacher. He will not merely proclaim, but in mercy He will bring and present what neither Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, nor an angel from heaven, no prophet or saint or even I, could announce or bring and give to you. And all men, from Adam to the end of the world, excluding none, who hope to attain truth and grace must derive these from Christ’s fullness and thus participate in His benefits.” For He came into the world and took upon Himself our human nature to redeem us from wrath and make us children of God, and that we might partake of His fullness.

    The holy evangelist informed us earlier that without Christ life, light, and mercy are unattainable. Only the believer in Christ’s name enjoys the power and the prerogative to become a child of God. This places all men, including all saints, whatever their name, into one category and labels all as sinners and liars devoid of grace as long as they rely on themselves and have not Christ. For all the descendants of Adam were born in sin and in disfavor with God, with nothing good in them, but imbued with falseness, hypocrisy, lies, and deceit. It avails nothing that they feign piety and saintliness, that they point to their good works, that they want to be regarded as humble and spiritual; all this is useless unless they become children of God through faith in Christ.

    But we see that the godless and blind world is so steeped in its nature, its mischief, and its disgraceful vices that it rejects any criticism and reproof of its vanity, its religious fervor, good works, its wisdom, its self-elected spirituality, its sham holiness, and idolatry as error, falsehood, lies, and deceit, as something by which it only increases the wrath of God and strays ever farther from the truth. Yes, the world upholds its error with all its might and persecutes and murders all who oppose it. Today we find this exemplified in the papists.

    Well, you may counter by pointing to imperial laws, to worldly government, to good discipline, all of which are intended to protect the godly, punish evildoers, and maintain order and decency. You will ask me: “Do you mean to say that these are also evil and sham?” No, I reply, they are good, necessary, and salutary within their sphere and the use for which God instituted them. For this reason St. Peter declared: “Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right” (1 Peter 2:14). But if one aspires thereby to gain forgiveness of sin from God, God’s grace, eternal life, and salvation, then it is all a delusion and without the power to accomplish this purpose. Even Moses with his Law cannot help here. St. Paul says that “no human being win be justified in God’s sight by works of the Law, since through the Law comes knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20). Here only He can give counsel and help who declares: “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5); and “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life” (John 14:6); and “I have overcome the world” (John 16:33).

    Therefore it is a terrible and detestable blindness and a demonic presumption when a person has the audacity, as an work-righteous and hypocrites do, to attempt atonement for sin through his works and tries in this way to earn the grace of God. It is wretched arrogance for a jurist, a scholar, a monk, or a nun to venture to boast this way. This is like a poor beggar—lice-ridden, syphilitic, leprous, filthy, stinking, and crawling with maggots and worms over his whole body, but nonetheless proud and arrogant—who vauntingly says: “Just look at me, a handsome fellow!” And in answer to our question: “After all, what are you?” he replies: “Well, I have a head, five fingers, two feet. Is this not reason for happiness and pride, since I possess a beautiful, clean, and healthy body?” “Yes, you are a fine heap of filth! You are so full of running sores, pus, and syphilis that I am surprised anyone still endures you and your stench and that people still wait on you. This they do, not because of any beauty in you but out of piety. They show you sympathy, patience, and mercy to keep you from perishing in your stench and filth and from being consumed by lice, worms, and maggots.” But if that beggar were to boast of anything, he should say: “I, a miserable leper or syphilitic, boast of receiving the mercy and benefaction of being tolerated in this hospital, where I am nursed and given bed and board. For this I am indebted to godly people who will not let me perish in my filth or fall prey to the worms. Of their alms, their charity, and aid I may well vaunt. But I have no reason at all to boast of myself beyond this, that pious people are doing everything good for me, an unworthy and wretched person.”

    Therefore we have no right to indulge in much bragging and boasting when we step before God. Even if we were members of the highest aristocracy on earth and were prone to take pride in this, before God we would still be nothing but bags of worms or bags of manure, infested with lice, maggots, stinking and foul. Therefore St. Paul says (Rom. 3:23): “All have sinned,” the whole world is guilty before God. And Isaiah (64:6) declares: “We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.” The fact that our dear God overlooks our shortcomings and shows us mercy; that He has given us life to date, although He would have a full right to cast us into hell’s abyss at any time; that He tolerates us poor bags of maggots in the world and in this vale of tears, which is a true hospital and infirmary for us who are all syphilitic and leprous before God—all this we owe to His mercy and compassion and not to our good works. If these are good, they are so merely because God is indulgent and patient with us. For “if Thou, O Lord, shouldst mark iniquities, Lord, who could stand?” (Ps. 130:3). Thus we realize that we have nothing of which to boast but God’s mercy and compassion which Christ imparts to us from His inexhaustible fullness.

    In view of all of this, it is amazing that we are so given to pride, to boasting and bragging, and that we glory in such things as our beauty, riches, noble birth, power, skill, wisdom, honorable life, good works, holy orders, merits, and the like. For in the sight of God all this is sheer wrath, disfavor, falsehood, filth, and dirt, without grace and truth (Phil. 3:8).96 And if we were not blind with seeing eyes, we would perceive that God humbles us amply, visits us with so many adversities and ailments, and finally with death, as a penalty for our sins, to remind us that we are not sure of our life for a single moment and that we would be eternally lost and damned if Christ were not our Lord and Savior.

    But if we do want to boast, then let us boast that we receive from the fullness of Christ, that we are enlightened by Him, attain forgiveness of sin, and become children of God through Him. For this is the sum and substance of it all: Whoever wishes to be safeguarded from the devil’s might and to escape sin and death must draw from this well, Christ; from Him flows all salvation and eternal bliss. This fountain is inexhaustible; it is full of grace and truth before God; it never fails no matter how much we draw from it. Even if we all dip from it without stopping, it cannot be emptied, but it remains a perennial fount of all grace and truth, an unfathomable well, an eternal fountain. The more we draw from it, the more it gives. Such water, as St. John remarks later, wells up to eternal life (John 4:14).

    The sun is not dimmed and darkened by shining on so many people or by providing the entire world with its light and bright splendor. It retains its light intact. It loses nothing; it is immeasurable, perhaps able to illumine ten more worlds. I suppose that a hundred thousand candles can be ignited from one light, and still this light will not lose any of its brilliance. Likewise, a learned man can educate a thousand scholars without forfeiting any of his own learning. The more he shares with others, the more he has himself. Thus Christ, our Lord, to whom we must flee and of whom we must ask all, is an interminable well, the chief source of all grace, truth, righteousness, wisdom, and life, without limit, measure, or end. Even if the whole world were to draw from this fountain enough grace and truth to transform all people into angels, still it would not lose as much as a drop. This fountain constantly overflows with sheer grace. Whoever wishes to enjoy Christ’s grace—and no one is excluded—let him come and receive it from Him. You will never drain this fountain of living water; it will never run dry. You will all draw from it much more than enough, and yet it will remain a perennial well. “Such a preacher,” declares John the Baptist, “will be yours. Do not let reliance on your own piety, on your compliance with the Law of Moses, or on your many good works keep you from recognizing Him. Your deeds do not stand the test. No matter how they may gleam and glitter, they are all false and fatally deceptive. For you are not only walking in darkness; but you yourself are darkness, subject to death and sin, together with all the other people on earth. But if you want to become truly pious, pure, righteous, and blessed, go to Him on whom God the Father has set His seal (John 6:27). He is the rich and inexhaustible Fountain and Fullness from which all patriarchs and prophets, in brief, all the saints—including me, John—also drew, always have drawn and taken, and still do. All of us without exception, no matter how holy we may be, come empty and fill our little casks from His well and His fullness.”

    Nor should anyone approach faintheartedly and suppose: “How can we all take from Him? I am not worthy, I do not belong among the saints, I am a Gentile.” All this gives rise to despair. This is St. John’s reply: “Listen to what I, who am sent by God, have to tell you: The Gentiles have the same right, a right granted out of pure mercy, to take from Christ’s fullness as have the Jews, the seed of Abraham, who possessed the Law. The Law does not aid or assist them in being called the people of God, nor does it hinder the Gentiles from being idolatrous. All, yes, all, whether Jews or Gentiles, who wish to receive grace and to be found truly righteous before God must necessarily draw and fill their flask from this incessant and overflowing fountain and must quench their thirst from this spring of living water which wells up to eternal life (John 4:14). In brief, Christ’s fullness is without limit and measure; therefore confidently fill your cups and quaff with good cheer. For here you find an overabundant supply of water which reaches into eternal life. And in all eternity you will have ample cause to thank and praise God for this.”

    And what do we really receive? “Grace upon grace.” John speaks of two types of grace. Christ’s grace is the unfathomable well and chief fountain of all grace; he called this “Christ’s fullness.” And ours is that grace which we draw from Christ, which He distributes among us and which He gives us for His mercy’s sake to render us pleasing and agreeable to God. Thus St. John diverts us from any reliance on self and from any confidence in our own work and merit, and he directs us to the mercy of Christ and to the love of God. This he does not only in this text but throughout his entire Gospel and his epistles. He wants to pose the question: What does God regard, and what moves Him to be favorably disposed toward you and to remit your sin? Is He actuated by your sacrifices, your circumcision, the divine worship in your temple? No! Much less is He persuaded by my monasticism, in which I disgracefully squandered fifteen years of my life, wickedly crucified Christ, my dear Lord, with my blasphemous celebration of the Mass, and misspent the best years of my life to my own and other people’s detriment. Nor is God moved by a coarse shirt worn and slept in by a Carthusian monk or by members of other orders, nor by the fact that someone walks to St. James’ clad in full armor,97 great though this ordeal may be. No, God does not barter His rich and boundless grace for your grimy, lousy cowl or your foulsmelling, greasy foods98 or for other works, no matter how attractively they may gleam and glisten. For since they are without grace and truth, they are worthless; yes, before God they are a sham, an empty delusion, and an abomination. Therefore God’s eyes rest on something quite different. He is gracious and compassionate for the sake of the fullness and ineffable grace of His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, because Christ is in the highest favor before God. We are endued with this grace, and God is pleased with us for the sake of His beloved Son (Eph. 1:6).

    All toil and effort to seek other ways leading to heaven are futile and vain. There is absolutely no other way than this; we must take from Christ’s fullness. Thereby we obtain grace, that is, remission of sins, become children of God and heirs of eternal life. We receive salvation for the sake of Christ’s grace, in whom God detects no sin, deceit, or falsehood, nothing but grace, truth, righteousness, and life. In view of this, God loves Him sincerely and commands us to hear Him. But now He says: “If anyone thirst, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water” (John 7:37–38). And now I believe in Him and come to Him, my dear Lord and Savior, as to Him who is full of grace; and I ask Him to quench my thirst with His living, fresh, rich, and perennial fountain. I am certain that He will fulfill my petition; for He came full of grace into this world that we might enjoy and partake of His grace.

    This is the correct and reassuring message of the blessed Gospel, which the pernicious and blasphemous see of Rome has trodden underfoot for several centuries, deluging all Christendom with its lies and demonic doctrines (1 Tim. 4:1) and instituting its worship and innumerable other abominations. As a consequence, Christendom neglected and, unfortunately, lost this chief fountain and source, which overflows with rich and full grace; and it substituted Christ’s mother Mary for Christ, praying to her for grace. Thus only the words “Hail Mary, full of grace!” remained current, and the words of our text passed into oblivion. But the words remain written: “And from His fullness have we all received, grace upon grace.”

    But even this was not enough. Each one chose a particular saint for himself. The one took St. George; the second, St. Christopher; the third, St. Francis; the fourth, St. Dominic; the fifth, St. Barbara.99 And this in the face of the Scriptures clear statement that “there is only one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). In all of Holy Writ we find not a single instance of adoration of the patriarchs, the prophets, and apostles—much less of St. George and St. Barbara, who probably never existed, and of the other saints created by the pope, like St. Francis and Saint Dominic, about whom no one knows anything with certainty. But even if we were to concede that they were full of grace, they would still be unable to impart any of it to me.

    If this blessed doctrine had remained and prevailed in Christendom, then neither the pope, who murders spiritually with his false teaching, nor the Turk, who butchers physically with his sword, would ever have arisen. But that is the usual course: If one refuses to accept the precious Word and the divine truth, or if one is soon satiated with them, God sends a strong delusion (2 Thess. 2:11) and lies which the people will believe; this results in the destruction of country and people, in disruption and devastation. The most beautiful and finest kingdoms and countries, in which the apostles planted the seed of the Gospel and in which the Gospel was subsequently preached in its purity by pious bishops and teachers for a long time, are now occupied by the cruel tyrant, the Turk.100 There the proclamation of Christ no longer resounds in the open—it may still be preached in secret where Christians are found—and the devil Mohammed is worshiped and adored in Christ’s stead. In due season Germany will not fare any better. For ingratitude and contempt for the Gospel are so extreme among us who are termed evangelical and among the papists, our enemies, who persecute the Gospel and are blasphemous and heretical, that God cannot condone it but will punish it sooner or later.

    St. Paul places Adam and Christ in juxtaposition, when he declares in Rom. 5:12: “Sin came into the world through one man.” As grace follows upon grace in Christ, so sin follows upon sin in man. Through his disobedience and transgression of the divine commandment Adam fell into sin, which polluted his body and soul, so that he was full of sin, wrath, and ungraciousness. This misery and abominable corruption he transmitted to his descendants, that is, to the entire human race. Just as Adam fell into sin and became subject to death, so we all who descended from him must bear sin, sorrows of all kinds, and death, sin’s penalty, simply because we were born from the sinful flesh which was Adam’s since the Fall.

    Thus sin follows upon sin. St. Paul expresses it thus: “Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Rom. 5:12). And David declared: “Behold, I was begotten of sinful seed, and in sin did my mother bear me” (Ps. 51:5). This means: All children are conceived in sin in their mother’s womb, and are carried and born in sin; for they are begotten of seed that is poisoned with sin. Sin follows upon sin inherited from birth. We are procreated from sinful seed and tainted flesh. This sin is ours, not by commission but by reason of our birth from him who sinned once upon a time.

    St. Paul goes on to say: “As by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience [Jesus Christ’s, who was the only person with grace] many will be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). He wishes to say that Christ alone is holy and righteous, full of grace and truth. He fulfilled the Father’s will, as we read in Ps. 40:8: “I delight to do Thy will, O My God.” “And He became obedient unto death, even death on a cross” (Phil. 2:8). We all benefit from this grace, truth, holiness, and righteousness of our Lord. He places His Word into our mouths, and faith into our hearts, so that we adhere to Him and are certain that He cleanses us “by the washing of water with the Word” (Eph. 5:26); He also imparts to us His grace and righteousness. As Adam is the fountainhead of sin, misery, and death, and transmits all these to us, so that we now speak of sin upon sin, so Christ is the fountainhead of all grace, truth, and life, from whom we derive a fullness of grace, life, and truth. This is “grace upon grace,” that the Father takes delight in us for Christ’s sake, and that through Christ we receive the Holy Spirit and are justified.

    In view of this, we may ask: Then what are Moses and the other prophets? Did they accomplish nothing? St. John replies that they faithfully administered their divine office.101 In his own words:

    96 The original has “Phil. 2, ” but the passage Luther had in mind is evidently Phil. 3:8; possibly he could have meant Phil. 2:15.

    97 Cf. p. 51, note 40.

    98 The more colorful German term is ölfressen, a reference to foods cooked in oil for Lent.

    99 Cf. also p. 165, note 134.

    100 Here Luther seems to have in mind North Africa and Asia Minor, where ancient Christian foundations had been taken over by Moslems.

    101 This is the end of the ninth and the beginning of the tenth sermon, dated “the Saturday after St. Francis’ Day,” which was October 6, 1537. But in a sermon on September 30, 1537 (Weimar, XLV, 149), Luther refers to this sermon as having been preached “yesterday,” namely September 29, 1537.

    Luther, M. 1999, c1957. Vol. 22: Luther's works, vol. 22 : Sermons on the Gospel of St. John: Chapters 1-4 (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald & H. T. Lehmann, Ed.). Luther's Works. Concordia Publishing House: Saint Louis
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Skeuos Eleos is on a distinguished road Skeuos Eleos's Avatar
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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    He certainly doesn't hold back in his descriptions of man's depravity.

    Also, he doesn't mince his words with those with whom he disagrees:
    Quote Originally Posted by Luther
    terrible and detestable blindness and a demonic presumption when a person has the audacity, as an work-righteous and hypocrites do, to attempt atonement for sin through his works and tries in this way to earn the grace of God
    If only more Christians in our day would adopt his attitude towards all who deny the true gospel of God's free and sovereign grace!

    Martin

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeuos Eleos
    He certainly doesn't hold back in his descriptions of man's depravity.

    Martin
    Perhaps women aren't as depraved as men.

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Don_Guyus
    Perhaps women aren't as depraved as men.
    Was this intended as a joke? It wasn't clear. People tend to use this 'smillie' to indicate that something is a joke to avoid the risk of it being taken seriously and unnecessarily offending someone.

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    lionovjudah has a spectacular aura about lionovjudah has a spectacular aura about lionovjudah's Avatar
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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeuos Eleos
    Was this intended as a joke? It wasn't clear. People tend to use this 'smillie' to indicate that something is a joke to avoid the risk of it being taken seriously and unnecessarily offending someone.
    SO thats why I have been offensive martin, I have not used the smiley face. What does one use when they intend sarcasm, but a sarcasm with an intentional jab?



    Joe

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah
    SO thats why I have been offensive martin, I have not used the smiley face. What does one use when they intend sarcasm, but a sarcasm with an intentional jab?

    Joe
    Joe,

    Then that is no longer humour (ok, 'humor' to you Americans ) and I would say that it is not an appropriate style to adopt - better to speak plainly and let your 'yes' be 'yes', etc. Furthermore, you promised to take more care over your posts after some earlier warnings and you also complained about a lack of a 'Christ-like' spirit in the responses you were getting. I therefore suggest that you of all people should avoid such an approach.

    I wonder whether you might benefit from reading this before you post:
    Quote Originally Posted by John Newton
    "As to your opponent, I wish, that, before you set pen to paper against him, and during the whole time you are preparing your answer, you may commend him by earnest prayer to the Lord's teaching and blessing. This practice will have a direct tendency to conciliate your heart to love and pity him; and such a disposition will have a good influence upon every page you write. . . . [If he is a believer,] in a little while you will meet in heaven; he will then be dearer to you than the nearest friend you have upon earth is to you now. Anticipate that period in your thoughts. . . . [If he is an unconverted person,] he is a more proper object of your compassion than your anger. Alas! "He knows not what he does." But you know who has made you to differ." -John Newton, The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. 1, p. 269
    Finally, the forum rules (Forum Rules and Guidelines ) state that excessive sarcasm should not be used.

    Martin

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeuos Eleos
    Joe,

    Then that is no longer humour (ok, 'humor' to you Americans ) and I would say that it is not an appropriate style to adopt - better to speak plainly and let your 'yes' be 'yes', etc. Furthermore, you promised to take more care over your posts after some earlier warnings and you also complained about a lack of a 'Christ-like' spirit in the responses you were getting. I therefore suggest that you of all people should avoid such an approach.

    I wonder whether you might benefit from reading this before you post:


    Finally, the forum rules (Forum Rules and Guidelines ) state that excessive sarcasm should not be used.


    Martin
    I should have done it in PM martin. Thanks for the guidelines. I do not think I have read them. And if you notice, my most recent threads have been much more in line lacking the sarcasm that is so predominant in my thoughts. Once again Martin, thank you.


    Joe
    Last edited by lionovjudah; 01-03-2005 at 03:18 PM.

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeuos Eleos
    Was this intended as a joke? It wasn't clear. People tend to use this 'smillie' to indicate that something is a joke to avoid the risk of it being taken seriously and unnecessarily offending someone.
    Not a joke but a thought for consideration.

    If you examine the laws of the Old Testament, they were written predominately to the men as if their behavior is what is in need of restraint.

    If you look at the more serious sins such as murder, rape, assault, pedophilia and pornography men are usually the perpetrators. Women are more often the victims. Breaking the law also just comes more naturally to men then to women. The news papers and the prisons will bare this out.

    Perhaps men are more depraved then women.

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Don_Guyus
    Not a joke but a thought for consideration.

    If you examine the laws of the Old Testament, they were written predominately to the men as if their behavior is what is in need of restraint.

    If you look at the more serious sins such as murder, rape, assault, pedophilia and pornography men are usually the perpetrators. Women are more often the victims. Breaking the law also just comes more naturally to men then to women. The news papers and the prisons will bare this out.

    Perhaps men are more depraved then women.
    Maybe you are unaware of what happened 2 weeks ago in the states where a women lost her baby in late term, and decided to stalk another women close to the end of her term, suffocated her, cut her open and took out the little one that was in her. They think she had some help but she is the one charged. One cannot be so blind as to the example of the whore queen Jezebeel or the warnings and admonishment of Solomon regarding the strange women. Strange indeed. God is no respector of persons.

    greetings and salutations, el rana

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    How hard it is to realize that the word "men" in the Bible is often descriptive of "mankind"?

    I am very interested in learning from what Wildboar is bringing as to Luther's opinions on issues we discuss here. Can we go back to them?

    Of course, if at all possible, everyone is encouraged to emit their opinions as well on Total Depravity in this thread and Unlimited Atonement in the other thread. Let's do that?

    One suggestion: Let's make the issue here to be the object of attention and not the issue writer. More clearly, let the issue being discussed be the center of our attention and not some side little petty infantile personal concern or childsh comment. Is it asking too much? I would love to hear and to learn from the positions of all on Luther's writings on Total Depravity. Can we keep the issue focused?

    I hope this is not a gargantuan task to keep the focus, and that the debate is not so difficult that all some can say is about themselves and the mode they write, or find some subaltern, irrelevant issue within the issue and deviate the discussion to it, which is not the core thereof.

    Do me protesteth too much? Methinks I do; but with cause!

    In Christ's love!

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeuos Eleos
    He certainly doesn't hold back in his descriptions of man's depravity.

    Also, he doesn't mince his words with those with whom he disagrees:

    If only more Christians in our day would adopt his attitude towards all who deny the true gospel of God's free and sovereign grace!

    Martin
    Point well taken Martin. But we also need to remember the polemics of Luthers day. His vile hatred of Rome was predominant because of his belonging to the SEE himself. He went mad during his monastic life because of this. So there was a combination of hatred towards papists and Love to Christ and His grace. Luther prised God for bringing him out of the abyss of Rome and their crippling penetential system. ROme had fallen to probably its lowest point and Luther was raised up by God and was saved in spite of his participation in popery. Also remember that Luther was a peaceful man and detested the killings and pepetrators who used his name as a veil for their pestilence. He lamented the horrors that followed. Luther thanked God for revelaing the fact that our own merit in anything means nothing. And his use of words describing the poor wretch and leper we all are were tremendous.


    Joe

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador
    How hard it is to realize that the word "men" in the Bible is often descriptive of "mankind"?

    I am very interested in learning from what Wildboar is bringing as to Luther's opinions on issues we discuss here. Can we go back to them?


    Milt
    Yes of course. Sorry about getting sidetracked with the women issue. They tend to capture my attention.

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    For all the descendants of Adam were born in sin and in disfavor with God, with nothing good in them, but imbued with falseness, hypocrisy, lies, and deceit. It avails nothing that they feign piety and saintliness, that they point to their good works, that they want to be regarded as humble and spiritual; all this is useless unless they become children of God through faith in Christ.[/left]
    It then follows that infants are totally depraved. If one believes this, then it has to follow that infants who die, are damned, since they wouldn’t have the opportunity to place their faith in Christ.

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Guyus
    It then follows that infants are totally depraved. If one believes this, then it has to follow that infants who die, are damned, since they wouldn’t have the opportunity to place their faith in Christ.
    This is another side issue which I have adressed a number of times before. It stems from the false belief that it is necessary for a person to achieve some level of cognitive ability to have faith. This is unbiblical and untrue. John the Baptist lept in the womb because God had given him faith in the womb. Faith is a gift of God and He is free to bestow it on whosoever He desires to. I know a number of people including myself who cannot remember a time when they did not know the Lord. The Bible's knows nothing of an age of accountability and the belief that cognitive ability is necessary for faith is just one more way to add our own work to our salvation.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Luther On the Depravity of Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Don_Guyus
    It then follows that infants are totally depraved. If one believes this, then it has to follow that infants who die, are damned, since they wouldn’t have the opportunity to place their faith in Christ.
    This issue is not even hinted at in Luthers writing hereor Scripture. Luther focused on the grace of God and Gods intention to save wretched, vile, spiritually bankrupt people by His doing not ours. Who more than children would be helpless to do anythign to save themselves. Again, Luther not only points out the disease, but magnifies the remedy.

    Joe

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