Here's an interesting question: If unconditional election is driven by unconditional love, is reprobation unconditional and driven by unconditional hate? What do you think? Does the Bible answer these questions?
Javelin
Here's an interesting question: If unconditional election is driven by unconditional love, is reprobation unconditional and driven by unconditional hate? What do you think? Does the Bible answer these questions?
Javelin
Defend the Bible? I would just as soon defend a lion. Just turn the Bible loose. It will defend itself.
-----Charles Haddon Spurgeon
Election and Reprobation are driven by God's intention to Glorify Himself.
Ditch the Garbage! - Too many people are proud of their humility - I, on the other hand, am not humble - and am proud of it!
"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.
Follow me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/kraftb
Follow Predestinarian Network on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/predestinarian
Follow Predestinarian Network on Twitter: http://twitter.com/predestinarian
Well, I would think hatred and reprobation IS conditional. It is conditioned on our actions which are so sinful. None of us can keep the law of God. We all deserve the hatred and reprobation of God because of who we are and how we are. Only those 'in Christ' are loved and elected, and only because of Christ.Originally Posted by Javelin
Carol
Run John Run! The Law commands,
But gives me neither feet, nor hands,
Far grander news the gospel brings,
It bids me fly, and gives me wings.
----John Bunyan
http://members.cox.net/ckizzz/index
I agree with Darth Gill. I also agree with Carol.
The oft-cited "Jacob I have loved; but Esau I have hated" passage of Romans 9 might be construed to suggest unconditional love and unconditional hatred. However, if we look back in Malachi 1, the source passage for the Romans 9 quotation, we find that God directly connects His hatred for "Esau" to the wickedness of the people represented by the name "Esau."
So, should we view election and reprobation as polar opposites? For, God sends men to eternal bliss based upon His work, not their works, and sends other men to eternal punishment based upon their works.
Javelin
Defend the Bible? I would just as soon defend a lion. Just turn the Bible loose. It will defend itself.
-----Charles Haddon Spurgeon
Yes I would agree with this.Predestination is a decree of God. Election and reprobation are not separate decrees of God. God did not have to peer down the corridors of time and see some forseen wickedness that a man would commit , therefore condemning him to eternal damnation. Man from the fall , were all in bondage to sin and as mentioned born and conceived in sin. He could do no other, unless God Himself, was to change the heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
Greetings and salutations, el rana
21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
Proverbs chapter 19
If unconditional election is driven by unconditional love, is reprobation unconditional and driven by unconditional hate? What do you think? Does the Bible answer these questions?
My answer is a definite yes. We covered this in the Infra/Supra thread if anyone cares to go back and read that one.
If God's hate is conditioned upon sin and guilt, then he did not proactively predestine that sin and guilt from eternity but instead is reacting to it based on 'foreknoledge' (hence it originated outside of his purposes). However, if the existence of eternal sin and guilt spring only from the eternal hatred and purposes of wrath springing from God's own nature (for the purpose of glorifying himself), then he is truly sovereign.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
Thank you, Mr. Twisse. I would be much obliged if you (or someone) would attach a link to the infra/supra thread. I would like to visit this. I'm sure it must be an interesting read.
I catch your train of thought. However, in the Psalms, we find mention of something called "hatred without a cause." This is referred to as an unrighteous or unjust hatred. It is a hatred born in the hater without instigation by/from the hatee (pardon my hokey word creation---but you understand what I'm saying). If we were to say that God's reprobating is born from eternal hatred, wouldn't we be assigning to God an attribute that He Himself describes as sinful in His word, namely hatred without instigation from the hatee ("hatred without a cause").
By way of qualification, I do believe that there is such a thing as righteous indignation and holy hatred. I'm only questioning the suggestion that God hates men with a hatred that this extrahistorical without reference to their sinfulness.
In addition, in discussing this, I am not advocating either supralapsarianism or infralapsarianism. I'm not completely satisfied by either scheme.
Javelin
Defend the Bible? I would just as soon defend a lion. Just turn the Bible loose. It will defend itself.
-----Charles Haddon Spurgeon
Javelin, the Infra vs. Supra thread is in the "Great Past Discussions" library on the forum.
If we were to say that God's reprobating is born from eternal hatred, wouldn't we be assigning to God an attribute that He Himself describes as sinful in His word, namely hatred without instigation from the hatee ("hatred without a cause").
By way of qualification, I do believe that there is such a thing as righteous indignation and holy hatred. I'm only questioning the suggestion that God hates men with a hatred that this extrahistorical without reference to their sinfulness.
In no way can we equate God's rights as the sovereign with the limitations he has placed upon the creature. We are forbidden to murder; yet God kills his enemies without guilt or remorse. Indeed, we are forbidden to exercise vengeance because it belongs to God alone. In the same manner, God's holy and eternal hatred toward those predestined to reprobation is not something that we have the right to question--based on any commandment that we are obligated to follow.
The hate of God is not a variable emotion like hate in the fallen human creature is. It is rather a purpose or passion that does not vary in the least whit.
Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?
--Martin Luther
The Jacob and Esau passage was referenced above and it is pretty clear that Gods hatred of Esau was conditioned upon God's purpose alone, not something He saw they would do.
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls–she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
We see in this passage when and why God predestines to salvation and damnation.
My two cents.
Mike
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks