The history of Bible

[cyl]

Dear All,

Is there any one can advise me the technique used to determine the age of a scripture/scroll ?

For instance, I've ever heard the Genesis was written about 1500 bc.

Is there any scientific method used to support this claim, so we can give an objective & independent answer to non-believers ?

Secondly, who have the authority to determine the canon of the Bible ?

thanks.

GBU

[Brandan Kraft]

I'm not sure how the dating of all of the books in the Bible took place. However, as far as determining the canon is concerned - I believe all seasoned regenerate Christians are capable of determining which books are inspired and which books are not. We do not need a "council" to determine these things for us.

Honestly, I can read the 66 books of the Bible and see that they are profitable and perfect in all their ways. I read other books, and see that they fall far short of the Gospel.

- Brandan

[lionovjudah]

Compilation does not equal inspiration.

God knew and directed what books would be included in the Holy Writ.

[wildboar]

Is there any one can advise me the technique used to determine the age of a scripture/scroll ?

For instance, I've ever heard the Genesis was written about 1500 bc.

Is there any scientific method used to support this claim, so we can give an objective & independent answer to non-believers ?

Scripture and scroll cannot be used interchangably. We don't have the original autographs for any of the Scriptures so the scroll or papyrii isn't going to be as old as what it was copied from which in turn was copied from another manuscript and so on. Manuscripts simply don't last 6000 years. The oldest manuscripts we have of Old Testament books are from the Dead Sea Scrolls and date to about 100 BC and many of them are fragments. How a person determines when a book of the Bible was first written is going to depend upon if they believe the information contained in the Bible is true. If someone believes the Bible is false they will date the prophecies as much as they can after the fulfillment of the prophecies take place. Among conservative scholars there is still a good deal of debate over when specific books were written. There is always the temptation within Christianity to attempt to convert people by our ability to argue or by scientific claims but it is through the foolishness of preaching that God has chosen to save his people.

Secondly, who have the authority to determine the canon of the Bible ?

God. The Scriptures are self-authenticating. Councils did not determine the canon of Scripture, they merely recognized it. Even from a historical perspective those who pretend that councils just arbitrarily determined the canon of Scripture are only fooling themselves. Prior to these councils taking place there is sufficient evidence from other writings within the church to show that believers were able to discern God's Word from godly writings by men. The fact that even unregenerate men know that this is God's Word is shown by their utter hatred of it and their attempts to drive it out of their lives.

As the Westminster Longer Catechism states:

WLC 1:4-5

WLC 4 How doth it appear that the Scriptures are the word of God? A. The Scriptures manifest themselves to be the word of God, by their majesty(1) and purity(2); by the consent of all the parts(3), and the scope of the whole, which is to give all glory to God(4); by their light and power to convince and convert sinners, to comfort and build up believers unto salvation.(5) But the Spirit of God, bearing witness by and with the Scriptures in the heart of man, is alone able fully to persuade it that they are the very word of God.(6)



(1)Hos. 8:12; 1 Cor. 2:6,7,13; Ps. 119:18,129

(2)Ps. 12:6; Ps. 19:140

(3)Acts 10:43; Acts 26:22

(4)Rom. 3:19,27

(5)Acts 18:28; Heb. 4:12; James 1:18; Ps. 19:79; Rom 15:4; Acts 20:32

(6)John 16:13,14; 1 John 2:20,27; John 20:31

For. A.A. Hodge's explanation of this passage see http://www.rtrc.net/documents/wcf/hodge/wcfaah1.htm

[cyl]

Councils did not determine the canon of Scripture, they merely recognized it.

Could you tell me more specific, the persons, or teams, or whatever it is, that were in charge in collecting thousands of NT scrolls, analyzing, and then compiling into Christian Bible we have right now.

If possible, I also would like to know how Israelites preserved and maintained their scrolls from generation to generation.

thanks.

[Tobias Crisp]

Could you tell me more specific, the persons, or teams, or whatever it is, that were in charge in collecting thousands of NT scrolls, analyzing, and then compiling into Christian Bible we have right now.

If possible, I also would like to know how Israelites preserved and maintained their scrolls from generation to generation.

thanks.

Cyl,

I don't think anyone on this forum is an expert in the fields of study that it would take to give an adequate response to your questions. I would suggest reading some books on the subjects if you are really interested in these areas of research. As far as the canon issue is concerned I know that F.F. Bruce wrote a book entitled The Canon of Scripture and I know that there are other volumes on the subject as well. Regarding the issue of preservation of the Old Testament text there are several works related to Old Testament textual criticism as well as OT background that may help you. I can't vouch for any of these works including the one by Bruce as I have not read any of them. I do not know of any popular works on these subjects either. I would warn however that a lot of books on these subjects are written by liberals.

Happy hunting.

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

For instance, I've ever heard the Genesis was written about 1500 bc.

Is there any scientific method used to support this claim, so we can give an objective & independent answer to non-believers ?

I think to take science and use it, as a means of authenticating Scriptures for unbelievers, is foolish. Someone, somewhere will always try to refute scientific findings for whatever reason - only to introduce even more confusion to the matter.



We must show how the Bible itself reaches far beyond the scientific realm of mans understanding, and well into the realm of superior logic & intellect of a being far great than man.



Take for instance the account of creation in Genesis. People have been debating the creation "story" long before Darwinism. The Egyptians had their own slant on the origins of man and the universe, which Moses spent a good time of his life learning:



(Acts 7:22) And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was mighty in words and in deeds.



Now, I'm not up-to-date on my Egyptian theology, but I'm pretty sure Moses was taught something other than the truth by those whom he studied under. Yet, God in all his wisdom used Moses to bring the truth to a world completely devoid of any real knowledge, and brought down their understanding to the dust like the foolishness it truly was.



At that time, the argument for the "origin of species" was obliviously played out with different subject matter. The people of the day were most likely not defending ideas of single cell organisms evolving into other species. Today, on the other hand, things are quite different. People have sought to discredit the claims of the bible based on information they have been told is correct without putting much thought into it...



Here's what I mean:



The biblical record of creation is given to us in a nutshell, and the science to prove it's truth isn't provided in a "step by step" outline so as we might have a working model for us to calculate and analyze.



However, the sequences of events are scientifically sound, in the only logical sequences possible in order for life to have existed at all - those being:



- Nothing

- Physical matter

- Light

- Time

- Space

- Vegetation

- Animal life

- Human beings.



Most remarkably, out of all the combinations possible, the author of Genesis got them right.

Secondly, who have the authority to determine the canon of the Bible ?

To simply say "God" doesn't cut it for me.

To say it changes lives, it's the longest - best selling book - in the most languages is too subjective as well.

The appropriate response in my mind would be to point to prophecy. It's clear, consise, and there are other historic cultural records to back it up.

Let's look at verse from Psalm 22:


(Psalms 22:16) and You have brought Me into the dust of death. For dogs have circled around Me; the band of spoilers have hemmed Me in, piercers of My hands and My feet.


Funny thing about when this was written - crucifixion didn't exist yet.

There's other examples I could give you as well. I coudl even probably give you the details about the oral tradition before the first book of the bible was written (the book of Job) but these are somewhat elementary and are not sufficeint to administer a blow of "sudden death" to the objections of your opponent in the heat of debate.

Time for work now. I'm gonna be late because iof his post.



thanks.

[wildboar]

Could you tell me more specific, the persons, or teams, or whatever it is, that were in charge in collecting thousands of NT scrolls, analyzing, and then compiling into Christian Bible we have right now.

If possible, I also would like to know how Israelites preserved and maintained their scrolls from generation to generation.

It's not as if there was a team of any sort that went about the various countries collecting all the given scrolls and then voted on which ones went in and which ones didn't. By the time of the writing of the NT, the church of the OT era had their cannon pretty well established and it was also accepted by the NT church and was the Bible of the early church at its beginning. Over time as the NT epistles and gospels were circulated they became accepted as well and recognized as being God-breathed. I think most true Christians can recognize the difference between Tobit and those books contained in the OT canon. It has a completely different character about it and it is clear that it is not God-breathed. The same is true if you compare the Sheperd of Hermas with the NT canon. People in the early church for the most part were illiterate and those who could read would not have had a complete Bible in their homes.

For further information you might want to read some of these articles on the NT canon: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol...ory.html#canon