How is justification by faith alone if both faith and repentance are involved in conversion? A Roman Catholic asked me this question and I did not know how to answer.
How is justification by faith alone if both faith and repentance are involved in conversion? A Roman Catholic asked me this question and I did not know how to answer.
We are righteous by the work of Christ alone. We are saved by grace through faith. We are not saved on the basis of our faith any more than we are saved on the basis of our works. By faith we lay hold of and come to a conscious knowledge of that salvation. Repentance and faith our tied together in such a way that true repentance will result from a true faith but we never read in Scripture that a person is saved through repentance.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Romans 5 is clear. God says the elect are justified by faith. Not faith and good works, not faith and repentance, not faith and something else. It is by faith we are justified. verse 1.Originally Posted by cih92
It is in the Lord Jesus Christ that the elect have access by faith into this grace wherein the elect stand, and thus rejoice in hope of the glory of God. verse 2
God commendeth His love toward the elect, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood , the elect shall be saved from wrath through Jesus Christ. verses 8,9
The sovereign grace of God , a free gift of God to the elect, in our Lord Jesus Christ has justified the sinner. Thus it is, and always will be the work of God (not man) in the sinner that makes the sinner repent of his evil rather than advocating that we should sin that grace may abound. The elect sinner is under GRACE, not under the LAW.
The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
Greetings and salutations, el rana
21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
Proverbs chapter 19
Although faith and repentance occur simultaneously at conversion, it is only faith that receives salvation. Is this correct?
cih92:
Salvation is broader than many define it and has past, present, and future aspects. We are not saved on the condition of faith but we are saved through the instrument of faith (Eph. 2:8). Repentance is never said to be the instrument by which we are saved. We repent because we have faith and we have faith because God has regenerated us and all of this is part of our salvation.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
I fully agree with what wildbore and Ray posted! This is bound to come up so I will bring it up now for those who are unfamiliar with this subject or do a search and find our website.
If what WB and Ray posted is true then how do we interpret James 2:14-26?
Certainly James speaks here of justification before MAN and not before GOD. Justification before God is on account of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, apprehended by faith alone. This we know from Paul's teaching.
James' epistle is very pratical and he is clearly concerned with how the Christian interacts and is perceived by his fellow man. We are "declared righteous" before our fellow man by doing good works as they cannot see our faith.
Faith is not hidden from God, so we cannot deceive God by saying "I have faith". Faith, however, IS hidden from man, so we can deceive man by saying the same. We must show our faith to man by our works.
What is the difference between a condition and an instrument? What is the difference between saying, "Faith is the condition for receiving justification.", and "Faith is the instrument that receives justification."?
Does the word, "righteous" have different meanings? I was wondering because Romans chapter 3 says that no one is righteous and Malachi 3:18 says that the righteous are those who serve God.
When advocates of common grace say that man has a civic righteousness, what do they mean by that?
A condition makes the result dependent upon the condition. The effect of the work of Christ would then be dependent upon whether or not a man believed. An instrument is a means by which something is achieved. Man is justified through the faith which is a gift from God. Through faith he no longer bears the guilt of his sin.
Malachi 3:18 shows how the righteous can be known. The righteous spoken of did not attain their righteousness by serving God but serve God because they are righteous. They are declared righteous because of the work of Christ.
Civic good at least as it relates to common grace teaches that man is capable of doing good before God in the civil realm. This is impossible since whatever is not done out of faith is sin.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
Doesn't this teaching that man can do good before God in the civil realm deny the total depravity of man?
Of course not. That is spoken of by God in Romans 7. The ability of the elect child of God to do good before God in the civil realm is the gift of God through Jesus Christ in the totally depraved sinner. Without God giving the gift, the work of the sinner is always wretched and blunt vanity.
Greetings and salutations, el rana
21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
Proverbs chapter 19
I think you misunderstood Brother Ray!
The question was such:
Doesn't this teaching that man can do good before God in the civil realm deny the total depravity of man?
I believe the context was that the "man" in the question is an unbeliever.
In this case the answer would be "yes": man doing good before God in ANY way, without faith, dismisses total depravity.
Yes I agree Melted. Double predestination would indeed advocate the point made regarding the unbeliever. Thank you
Greetings and salutations, el rana
21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
Proverbs chapter 19
melted:
Yes, that's my point. Teaching that man can do civil good is certainly a denial of the total depravity of man. Man may be able to do and perform things which are useful before other men but he is incapable of doing good before God in any sense because he lives his life in opposition to God.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
What do you think of those who use the term, "condition", as if it were synonymous with "instrument"? I have heard people say that faith is the condition for receiving salvation, but they would deny that our salvation is dependent upon our faith or that faith is the basis upon which we are saved. They thought that "condition" meant "instrument". They were using the wrong terminology without knowing it.
Last edited by cih92; 05-20-2005 at 11:17 PM.
[QUOTE=melted]Certainly James speaks here of justification before MAN and not before GOD. QUOTE]
I've heard this justification before MAN explaination before, though I'm still unclear what this means and don't see this term used here.
James refers to Abraham when he offered to sacrafice Isaac as an example of justification by works. Yet when he did this he did so far from other men.
Can you explain to me in more detail what you mean by justification before man?
Is this something required of us?
"And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him."
"And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
"And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son."
"And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
Hi everyone,
Look at the verses above and examine the events taking place, perhaps a few things can be determined which will help us understand what James is referring to;
- God decreed a covenant would be established with Abrahams' son Isaac.
- At this time, Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son
- God COMMANDED Abraham to kill Isaac and offer Isaac a burnt offering.
- Abraham was going to do it, with the knife in his hand and knowing the blessing was going to be through Isaac. How would the blessing be possible if Isaac were dead? Maybe Abraham thought God could raise his only begotten son from the dead for an everlasting covenant?
- It must have taken a lot of faith, which I suspect was God given.
James is creating a scenario, illustrating by example that the outwardly compassionate, practical application of true faith is a result that stems from a personal, intimate knowledge of God and His mercy, which takes precedence over shooting off at the mouth about being a "Christian", sounding like a clanging symbol as it were. Basically, "Faith without works is dead" in a more contemporary sense can be thought of as "talk is cheap". We could go even further and say “You want to talk to me about Jesus? I’ll show you Jesus!!”
I think we have a tendency to over complicate the ideas being expressed in the bible (a result of pride?) which leads to redundant useless discussion over concepts which have been historically solidified in the minds of God's people by the Spirit of Truth - Salvation is by faith alone.
Now, seeing how we know that salvation is a gift of grace from God, not of works lest you or I should boast, then what could James possibly be speaking of?
"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty for he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
Talk is cheap...
Laterz,
Brother Scott.
"Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so..."
I think they should stop using the term. The word condition is not synonymous with instrument just as common grace is not synonymous with God's providence. I'm not going to say that all are damned who use these terms or start pronouncing anathemas upon them. I certainly expect to see Turretin in heaven who spoke of faith as a condition. But I see no profit in continuing to use the word because it just leads to confusion.
For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine
If you take time to read something other than Paul's writings, you will see the importants of works in salvation.
As one exaple, take a look at Jesus words when he talks about the last judgement in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 and let me know if you can honestly say that what we do or don't do doesn't matter when it comes to salvation.
Don Guyus,
Christ is not teaching that our works merit salvation in Matthew 25:31-46.
Christ is describing the attributes of those who will be saved, that is, those elected unto salvation. The regenerated elect are the only ones who can obey Christ. Sanctification is by grace alone.
The elect were predestined to obey Christ (Ephesians 2:10). Note how in Eph. 2:10 the elect's good works were determined before creation, then compare this to Matthew 25:34 where Christ says, "Come ye BLESSED of my Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED FOR YOU from the foundation of the world" Note well that the elect are identified here as "Blessed of my Father." Also note that the Kingdom was prepared before creation. In order for the Kingdom to be prepared FOR THE ELECT, then Christ must be determined to become the Surety for the elect, have the elect's sin imputed to His account, have His righteousness imputed to the elect, expiate the sins of the elect, and propitiate the wrath of God! Note that we have nothing to do with the justification required for us to inherit the Kingdom! It is an imputed alien righteousness. Again, the good works listed after v. 34 in Matt. are only indicators to identify those justified before God, not that which is needed to cause our justification before God.
Calvin discusses this very passage saying:
"If Christ were now speaking of the cause of our salvation, the Papists could not be blamed for inferring that we merit eternal life by good works; but as Christ had no other design than to exhort his people to holy and upright conduct, it is improper to conclude from his words what is the value of the merits of works. With regard for the stress which they lay on the word for, as if it pointed out the cause, it is a weak argument; for we know that, when eternal life is promised to the righteous, the word for does not always denote a cause, but rather the order of procedure. But we have another reply to offer, which is still more clear; for we do not deny that a reward is promised to good works, but maintain that it is a reward of grace, because it depends on adoption. Paul boasts (2 Tim. iv. 8) that a crown of righteousness is laid up for him; but whence did he derive that confidence but because he was a member of Christ, who alone is heir of the heavenly kingdom? He openly avows that the righteous Judge will give to him that crown; but whence did he obtain that prize but because by grace he was adopted, and received that justification of which we are all destitute? We must therefore hold these two principals first, that believers are called to the possession of the kingdom of heaven, so far as relates to good worksm, not because they deserve them through the righteousness of works, or because their own minds prompted them to obtain that righteousness, but because God justifies whom he previously elected, (Rom. viii. 30.) Secondly, although by the guidance of the Spirit they aim at the practice of righteousness, yet as they never fulfill the law of God, no reward is due to them, but the term reward is applied to that which is bestowed by grace."
Calvin's Commentary, Volume 17, pages 178-179, Baker
emphasis mine
Paul and James do not contradict each other when it comes to salvation.
Paul and James both contradict the Roman Catholic Church-State when it comes to salvation!
RED BEETLE says
Sola Fide!!!
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