Prayer or Babble

[Mickey]

Something that has been on my mind is how Christians should pray. I remember in a past discussion someone stating that "Arminians don't pray like Calvinists, rather most Calvinists pray like Arminians."
Prayer is something I struggle with, probably because I don't understand it. Christ gave a model prayer that was so simple. So then why do some think that they must utter every word or concern that comes to mind? Isn't that what Christ told us not to do?



Do we pray for others to be healed, saved, repent from moral sin or false doctrine, get a job they want, etc...I have never had the benefit of sitting at the feet of someone who wasn't blinded by the traditions of men, to listen and learn how they speak to the Father. This I believe is the case with many and I think this thread--if some choose to respond--will hit on some vital principles that will aid us in our understanding of living and praying with the knowledge and understanding of the Sovereignty of God.



Example:



I was scanning the radio stations and I caught the end of this commercial about a group that was going to start praying that AIDS epidemic would be defeated. They did confess that they thought AIDS was a result of sin, but they still think this is a worth cause to 'pray' for.



This provoked the thought, 'How would someone pray for that?' It is obvious that the existance of AIDS is God's will, but should we pray that God gives us a cure? Not all that contract the disease got it through sex, so it's not punishment for sexual immorality for some. There are so many things that can play into a situation like this. So how do we--with understanding--take a step back and come to an understanding on how we should bring these things to God?



What do you guys think?



Mike

[ashamoun]

Mike,
Thank you for starting this thread and articulating what I've been thinking for quite a while.

What is proper for prayer??

If God has forordained everything, which he has, then why do we pray? What should we pray for or about?

I would love if someone could recommend a book or even be willing to go into depth on this topic here.

Oh, and Mike, if you think our Lord's prayer is a simple one, try this tonight. Take the Lord's prayer line by line and think about the meaning and the magnitude of each line.

For instance,
"Our Father" Think about that for a while, how is God our Father, what does that mean? Studying the Lord's prayer in this manner is an in depth and most interesting study.

Say the Lord's prayer to yourself line by line and think quickly about each line, and by the end of it, I can gurantee that you will appreciate the incredible depth to this prayer.

I myself have certainly been guilty of "glossing over it" and I am not suggesting that you do, but it wasn't until this way of studying the prayer was presented to me that I realized how in depth it truly was.

[melted]

Here's something I wrote awhile back. Given the topic of this thread I thought it might be appropriate. I'd welcome any feedback.

Prayer is two-way communication with God. We purposefully communicate to Him with our thoughts and our words. He communicates to us through the Holy Spirit’s workings inside of us and His written Word in the form of the Bible. The reasons for prayer include:

1) Thanksgiving – “Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God” (Phil 4:6). Many people think that prayer is only meant to ask for things from God. How would a parent feel if his child only asked and never thanked? When we are made to recognize blessings, it is our duty to thank God for them – blessings of all kinds, even afflictions, as they are from God as well, and serve a purpose in our lives. How many will readily thank God for their health, yet do not consider thanking God in their sickness? When we petition God for His graces, it is our responsibility to always be on the watch for His answer. The moment we are made aware of His answer - whether it be what we expected or something entirely different – as soon as we are made aware of ANY answer, we should humble ourselves before God and thank Him.

2) Our spiritual growth – “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). We all sin, and will continue to sin until we are rid of our sinful flesh and receive our glorified bodies in eternity. Sin separates us from close fellowship with the Lord and He does not hear our cries – “If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear” (Psa 66:18). If we desire to walk in the Light, we must confess our sins to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. Confession of sins includes the continual admission of the general corruption of sin and our resulting bankruptcy before God, as well as the confession of specific sins – particularly repetitive sins of which the truth is known (Heb 10:26).

3) Voice our needs – “And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus” (Phil 4:19). Our true needs are far fewer than we would like to admit. Our bodies can endure far more pain or neglect than we are subjected to daily. We eat good foods and sleep on soft beds. Our minds are subjected to worldly “entertainment” and deep thought becomes a rare commodity. What do we really and truly need? Let us be of sure mind and humble heart when petitioning the Lord for our “needs”. Let us, in good conscience and sincere faith be convinced that we can discern our needs from desires. “…your Father knows what you need before you ask Him” (Mat 6:8).
We should not only pray for our own needs, but more importantly for the needs of others. Throughout the New Testament Paul prays constantly for his fellow brothers in Christ and for the churches. In John chapter 17 our Lord Jesus prays that the needs (the most important needs – of a spiritual nature) of those given Him by the Father be met. We do well to follow the examples of Paul and the Lord Jesus in our asking that the needs of others be met.

4) Voice our desires – “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!” (Mat 7:11). After we have thanked God for His blessings, after we have cleansed ourselves in the blood of Jesus Christ by begging forgiveness, after we have asked that our needs be met, after we have asked that the needs of others be met – only then should we supplicate the Lord with our desires. How tempting it is to make this our first request - to give highest billing to the longings of self. ”The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much” (James 5:16). It seems obvious that the closer our walk with the Lord, the more readily our desires will be heard and answered – so, keep His commandments and He will hear you. (1 Peter 3:12, John 15:7, 1 John 3:22)

5) Worship – “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers” (John 4:23). Communication to God through prayer is a form of worship. What is meant by worship? Worship is the expression of reverence and love – to show honor and devotion. Worship is common to all of the motions that make up prayer. In prayer, we acknowledge ourselves lower than God. We humble ourselves before Him and express our overwhelming need of His guiding hand in our lives. We are not making these things known to God; rather we make them known to ourselves! God knows His place and He well knows our place - far be it for us to make known anything to Him. By voicing to Him our love, our thankfulness, our needs and desires, our fears - we show Him adoration and honor Him as the One Almighty God. Christians must do all things for the glory of God alone – devoted prayer is a means by which we glorify God.



“In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words” (Romans 8:26). Prayer sounds easy at first, but here Paul makes it obvious that we do not know how to pray properly. On the contrary, can communication between wretched flesh and the Infinite Holy God ever be easy? How low must He condescend to commune with us? How impossibly high must we rise to commune with Him? Only through the Holy Spirit can our prayers reach God. He not only makes our own requests known, but adds to them with “groanings too deep for words” of His own. How foolish is the man that thinks his own prayers are sufficient. The Spirit knows the will of God and is able to pray righteously and in accordance with God’s perfect will on our behalf. While our Lord Jesus was Man, he prayed on behalf of His chosen on many occasions. He sits now at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us, but no longer through prayer, rather directly. (Heb 7:25, John 16:26)



“Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you” (John 16:23). All prayers, all requests, all worship must be done in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is the Mediator between the Father and man. Whatever is asked of God must be asked on the grounds of Christ’s sacrifice. Whatever is requested must go by way of Jesus Christ’s righteous blood offering. Let us make sure that our prayers are a glory to the Lord, and that we are not ashamed to say that we pray in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, for His glory.



Though we do not know exactly how to pray, the Bible gives us some guidelines. Let us examine only a few as laid out in the New Testament:

1) Before meals – There are numerous examples to encourage us to give thanks before eating the food that God has provided. (Mat 14:19, Mat 26:26, Acts 27:35, 1 Cor 11:24, 1 Tim 4:4,5)

2) Not for public display – Our prayers are for the Lord. If we pray loudly and publicly as the Pharisees, it is no longer for the glory of God, but for our own recognition. Our Lord Jesus instructs us to go into a closet (somewhere private) and pray in secret. (Mat 6:5,6)

3) “Always”, “often”, “unceasingly”, “at all times”, “night and day” – The more we are able to have communion with God, the better our spiritual health will be. Jesus Christ is said to have prayed “all night”. It should not be a burden to pray but rather a privilege – one that we should pursue “devotedly” and “with persistence”. (Luke 18:1, Eph 6:18, Acts 1:14, Acts, Acts 6:4, Rom 12:12, 10:2, Rom 1:9, 1 Thes 5:17, Phil 4:6, Col 1:3, 2 Thes 1:11, 1 Thes 3:10, 1 Tim 5:5, 2 Tim 1:3)

4) With joy – We should joyfully approach the Lord, always remembering the blessings He has given us and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on our behalf. (Phil 1:4)

5) With crying and tears – Sometimes we are afflicted such that we cry out to God. Sometimes we are bereaved, or overjoyed, to the point of tears. Though, no tears can be shed more earnestly than those of our Lord Jesus in prayer at the Garden of Gethsemane. (Heb 5:7, Luke 22:41)

6) Together with brothers/sisters/spouses – While public prayer for recognition is clearly against God’s will, public prayer, with “one mind” - as a group of like minded Christians - is good in God’s sight. (Acts 1:14, Acts 12:12, Acts 20:36, 1 Cor 7:5)

7) With the right motives – Excerpt from John Gill’s comments on James 4:3, asking with the wrong motives: “Not in the faith of a divine promise; nor with thankfulness for past mercies, nor with submission to the will of God; nor with a right end: to do good to others, and to make use of what might be bestowed for the honor of God, and the interest of Christ”

8) With faith – Faith is “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Heb 11:1). There is no purpose in prayer if it is not done with faith that the Lord will answer, and has in fact ALREADY answered, the request (Mark 11:24). True faith comes only from the Holy Spirit indwelling the Christian; therefore, all prayers offered up in faith are from the Spirit (Gal 5:22). For this reason we are instructed to pray “in the Spirit” (Eph 6:18, Jude 1:20)



“…your Father knows what you need before you ask Him” (Mat 6:8). Why then do we bother to pray? The easy answer is that we’re instructed to pray. Beyond that, the purpose of prayer is to bring ourselves into accord with God’s will for us, not, as most believe, to beg God change His desires to meet with ours (1 John 5:14). God has laid down His plan from before the foundation of the earth (Eph 3:11). He has included our prayers in His plan. From the human perspective, our cries cause God to change His will to meet our requests. The Truth reveals that to be false. From God’s perspective, He has always planned to do everything just as He foreordained. Our begging of God’s grace and blessings is an act of worship and a glory to God, that we should ask for the things that we will receive, and be thankful for the things that we do receive. “’For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the LORD, ‘plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.’” (Jer. 29:11,12)



How do we know God’s will so that we are able to pray with faith? We know by studying God’s Word. Scripture reveals to us God’s plan - His will. The more we understand it, the better we are able to then beseech the Lord to make good on His promises. If our desires are the same as God’s, our prayers are answered positively and we should rejoice. If, instead, we ask and do not receive, we can be confident and rejoice that our prayer is answered negatively, and that God’s desire has been made known to us. Many times prayers, especially our questions to God, are answered by the text of the Bible itself. After fervent prayer we should study God’s Word, and He will many times give us an answer straight from Scripture. It could be said that the act of prayer is mostly us speaking, while our reading God’s Word is all Him speaking.



Probably the most well known prayer is when our Lord Jesus told the disciples how to pray during His Sermon on the Mount: “Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed by Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.” (Mat 6:9-13). While this is an example of prayer, it by no means encompasses the extent to which our prayer life should extend. A healthy prayer life is vital to a close walk with the Lord. Without daily prayer and worship the human spirit dries up and shrinks away from the Almighty. Each of us should set aside time that is reserved for communion with the Lord and nothing else. We live in a busy world, but can the world ever be too busy for us to take some time away to worship the Lord, with whom we will spend eternity? Are the mundane tasks of our lives too important to interrupt for the Lord?



The most important thing to keep in mind with prayer is that: it is not our will that will be done, but God’s. The most humbling prayer recorded in Holy Scripture is when Jesus Christ cried unto the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane: “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done” (Luke 22:42). Here, our Lord Jesus was afflicted greater than we as mere men will ever know. In His great agony, knowing what was to come, He, the Son of God, ended His supplication with “yet not My will, but Yours be done.” Surely, if the Lord Himself prayed in such a way, let us be encouraged to do the same.



“I love the LORD, because He hears My voice and my supplications. Because He has inclined His ear to me, Therefore I shall call upon Him as long as I live” (Psa 116:1,2).

[Mickey]

ashamoun, indeed Christ's example of how to pray is rich with truth and more than a mere montra. Perhaps simple was the wrong word!

melted, what you wrote has been my understanding for a few years now. The problem I am having is that much of this veiw on prayer just doesn't seem to fit. What I mean is; with the understanding that God has predestined all things, our prays should not sound like Arminian prayers.

Indeed we cry out to God, confess our sins, give thanks and worship Him. But we should always be doing this with understanding. I have spent hours with professing Calvinists with our heads down and eyes closed, laying request upon request and praise upon praise at the feet of God. I'm just being truthful here, but if I'm not the one praying I'm out like a light! I better not be in a window, otherwise we're gonna need Benny Hin to come raise me from the dead after I fall out!

What I'm getting at is I think that there has been a departure away from what Christ and His disciples meant by prayer. It seems to me that a man or woman with understanding is more likely to be silent before God, rather then gushing forth word after word. I may be wrong, thats why I posted this thread.

Mike

[melted]

What I'm getting at is I think that there has been a departure away from what Christ and His disciples meant by prayer. It seems to me that a man or woman with understanding is more likely to be silent before God, rather then gushing forth word after word. I may be wrong, thats why I posted this thread.

I very much understand what you're saying and I have struggled with this much in the past. I have even "experimented" with prayer (as bad as that may sound). What I have found is that when I lay my honest thoughts before the Lord privately and earnestly I feel a wonderful closeness, and the longer I spend in prayer the more humbled, thankful, and just basically sanctified I feel afterward. I've tried the "short and simple because God knows my thoughts and has predestined everything" prayers in place of the longer more personal type, and I always feel as if I've shrugged off a wonderful opportunity for communion with the Lord.

We are blessed beyond understanding with a real, personal relationship with the Lord of lords and King of kings, the one Almighty God. I know personally I am so utterly depraved that sometimes I don't even feel like setting aside the time or energy for proper prayer with the Lord. It's disgusting but true.

I can't say much about group prayer since I've never really been a part of that. I would probably not sit near the window either though

[Don_Guyus]

If God has forordained everything, which he has, then why do we pray? What should we pray for or about?

Take the Lord's prayer line by line and think about the meaning and the magnitude of each line.

In one line, the prayer is a request that the Father's will be done on earth.

The implication is that it is not done as of yet.
At least not 100%.

[Christ_†_Alone]

What do you guys think?

Well, you may or may not agree with every word, but here's an article to hopefully give you some cause for thought.

A Discourse on Prayer by Kevin Rolfe

[Mickey]

I've tried the "short and simple because God knows my thoughts and has predestined everything" prayers in place of the longer more personal type, and I always feel as if I've shrugged off a wonderful opportunity for communion with the Lord.

I understand what you mean. Prayer should never become a rehearsal of the same words for every type of prayer. There was a man I assembled with and everytime he prayed--if you had been there long enough--you could lip what he would say for healing, peace, comfort, victory over the flesh , the world, the devil and his closing. It always sounded so rehursed...but maybe thats just me being critical.

We must always aproach God with honesty. I understand sometimes we just need to unload--David did! It should never become an issue about how short or long our prayers become. This isn't the point, the point is that God is there and we know this and we speak to Him like we do with those we love. Only this is our Father in Heaven, who knows us through and through.

The problem I'm having is dumping all of the pollution I inhailed while I was an Arminian and seeing things in the light of Calvinist thought.

Examples:

1.) Prayer is 'means' (God moves through prayer).
2.) The Power of Prayer (as if it's a secret power that we have to tap into).
3.) Intersession (Just the way its done, not intersession itself).

I'm bringing all of this up because there are delicate issues in my life that invole other people. All I know to pray is God, "You are all wise and just, thy will be done." Then when I relate this situation to others and it's not so different! So I find myself with a knowledge of a Sovereign God and my mind is bound to think on those terms. To spend time telling God what I think should happen is just akward. Now sure I get a little emotional and I may rant for a bit but I am then reminded of these things and I am quike to shut my mouth.

I find this same thing accurring when I worship in song. I don't need many words, just the ones that make the point. If our words are an experssion of how we feel and that is what prayer is then I might as well be silent and let God listen to the meditations of my heart because they say it much better then my mouth does anyway. A tear says a lot and so does a joyful shout!

I don't know if any of that makes sense. Oh well.

Mike

[Mickey]

Oh and thank you Carla for that Article. I read it and much like melted's article, I don't have any specific disputes. Perhaps I'm the one that is off and thats where this struggle is coming from. It just seems something is missing and I can't put my finger on it.

[Eileen]

Mike

Ps 19:14:
"Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer"

You know the most glorious thing about the meditations of our heart is that our Father is the One, the only one, who can know them........all of them and I find that a great comfort, for He is my Strength and my Redeemer.

We are His children....go to our Father in faith, as Mike, for He knows you just as He knows me. We are all different and He knows that, He made us!

All Glory to God, I'm the child of a King!

Eileen~

[lionovjudah]

Mike:

THis age old question has been asked by many, including myself. "WHy pray if everything is already ordained"

Melted provided an excellent response.

I have always wondered if God could predestinate the prayers for the end to come about.

For instance, The outcome is determined, but the prayer is part of the determined council. Not God "waiting" it is not an if, but a shall, a will.

For instance, Mike shall pray, Mike WILL pray for the conversion of his brother and be the means that My will reaches this person.

Then I always fall back on we are commanded to pray and that makes it easy for me!!!!! hahahahah


If we believe that God has the unstoppable power to save people, then shouldn’t this motivate us to pray for God to unleash this power? If it is true that God has the ability to soften hearts, and open eyes, and make people willing to believe, then doesn’t it make sense for us to pray to Him to save the lost? “Will you pray that God enlighten [the unbeliever’s] mind so that he can truly see the beauty of Christ and believe? If you pray this, you are in effect asking God no longer to leave the determination of the man's will in his own power. You are asking God to do something within the man's mind (or heart) so that he will surely see and believe. That is, you are conceding that the ultimate determination of the man's decision to trust Christ is God's, not merely his.” In other words, whenever a Christian prays for a person to be converted, he is asking God to overcome the blind eyes and deaf ears of the person and draw him to Christ. The only way we can consistently pray for God to save people is if we admit that predestination is true.

I love to look at Acts 9 in Pauls converstion. Christ said to Ananias, "Behold he prays!!!!!!!" As if it was the first time Paul had ever prayed. IT was Pauls first time of true prayer to his Lord.

[Mickey]

lionovjudah, I see your point. I'm not going to analize every sentence of your post, but it seems to me you still have the Low Calvinist view. I believe our prayers are perdestined but I don't think they are tied directly to the events that take place. You used the example of praying for my bothers convertion--what if hes not converted. What 'means' does that prayer have now?

Keep in mind I'm not suggesting that we not pray, I am only pointing out that our prayers should line up with what we confess to be true. If someone is reading this and is Low Grace or Arminian I don't expect them to see my point.

Do some come to this forum and defend Absolute Predestination, 5 points, etc...then when they go to God in prayer, they speak as though God needs you to speak specific words so that He may act? As though the events that take place in this world are conditioned upon our prayers?

[lionovjudah]

lionovjudah, I see your point. I'm not going to analize every sentence of your post, but it seems to me you still have the Low Calvinist view. I believe our prayers are perdestined but I don't think they are tied directly to the events that take place. You used the example of praying for my bothers convertion--what if hes not converted. What 'means' does that prayer have now?

Keep in mind I'm not suggesting that we not pray, I am only pointing out that our prayers should line up with what we confess to be true. If someone is reading this and is Low Grace or Arminian I don't expect them to see my point.

Do some come to this forum and defend Absolute Predestination, 5 points, etc...then when they go to God in prayer, they speak as though God needs you to speak specific words so that He may act? As though the events that take place in this world are conditioned upon our prayers?

I believe it becomes a riddle Mike oif we have to systemize everything based on anything other than what our Lord says.

My point was not to imply a low grace vs high grace perception. Does God imply means to convert a person or does it just happen mystically? Man most certainly is aware of his conversion Mike. He may be passive in the operation of regeneration, but is there not means for the persons conversion?

And I believe these means are also predestinated to happen. Not "If Mike prays" but "When Mike prays. God is actually in complete control of that also. Now if that is low grace, so be it, I do not know what that means anyway!!!!! hahahaha

Again I most certainly pray the the Lord protects my children everyday. I find absolutely nothing wrong with this in regards of absolute predestination. One can also walk a tight rope between predestination and fatalism.


Again Mike, If you said to me, Joe, I am not going to pray because God has ordained the outcome already, I would look at you as a fool. I believe praying reinforces Gods control.

Plus you also mentioned you dont know your point, so how can anyone else know it? hahahahahaha

Plus prayer is worship of the Almighty IMHO. Adoring Him as the Lord of Lords!!!!!!!!!!

Paul could say in Rom. 11:8, “God gave [Israel] a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.” But Paul also said in the same book, just one chapter earlier, “Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.” We can learn an important lesson from the Apostle Paul and his prayer habits. He shows us that it is possible to believe in predestination and to pray for the unsaved. We would do well to take Paul’s advice and imitate his conduct (1 Cor. 4:16).

[samohtwerdna]

I have much to say on this topic, and I thank Mike for starting this thread and asking with honesty what many Christians are to afraid to speak of.

I can only give a small post now but plan to come back soon with more...

Anyway, here is a thought for those who struggle with Predestination and prayer. Prayer isn't a simple duty to be performed, not is it a form in which to obtain things. Although prayer can both be a means to obtaining things you would have otherwise not received and a duty which the Lord commands - it is far more a real part of our experimental relationship with God. (I use experimental in the puritan sense) In a relationship there are two aspects -- the reality and the instrument. (I am borrowing this from Vos) When you say that you love you spouse you reference both aspects, but if you where to think about "how" you love your spouse you would focus on the instrumentive aspect - like: I love my wife because I listen to her, I bring her flowers, I confide in her... These things in themselves are not Love - but could the reality of love real be there without them?

It is this way with our communication to the most holy God. We pray because we love and are in relationship to Him. The reality of the union forces the instrument that exposes the reality - (the other way around is impossible and only attempted by hypocrites) Thus if you are hesitant to pray, ask yourself why? Why would you not share something with the one you love? However, if you are the type that babbles on in on in prayer - especially about non important things you may consider yourself a boring lover - if a lover at all.

more to come...

[Mickey]

Andrew, I have missed you bro. Don't keep me in suspense too long! I am very interested with what you have to say because it seems you have understood what I am getting at. I pretty much gave up on going any further in this thread because I have been unable to express what it is I have a problem with. This is shown by the responses I have got from others. While I aappreciate them, they are missing my point (which is my fault). My point of this thread is not should we pray--this is a given. Rather what is prayer and what is it not? Prayer as I have heard and practiced does not seem to 'line-up'(?) with what Calvinist confess.

[wildboar]

I speak as one who recognizes a deficiency in his own life in regards to prayer. The fact is that we do read of holy men of God in Scripture spending very long times in prayer. One of the most fascinating I find is the prayer of Jesus in the garden.

Matthew 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."

Jesus was not sinning when He asked that the cup pass from Him but was petitioning God all the while submitting Himself to the Father's will. We certainly ought to do the same. If we have a sick relative (sick/spiritually or both) we ought to bring our concerns to our heavenly Father and ask for healing but be willing to accept His will if it is contrary to our petitions. Prayer should certainly not be viewed as a means to change the mind of God. For the most part prayer changes us. But God does work through prayer to bring about His sovereign purpose. If we become fatalists then prayer will do us no good, but if we are good Biblical Calvinists we will gain much from prayer.

[lionovjudah]

I speak as one who recognizes a deficiency in his own life in regards to prayer. The fact is that we do read of holy men of God in Scripture spending very long times in prayer. One of the most fascinating I find is the prayer of Jesus in the garden.

Matthew 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."

Jesus was not sinning when He asked that the cup pass from Him but was petitioning God all the while submitting Himself to the Father's will. We certainly ought to do the same. If we have a sick relative (sick/spiritually or both) we ought to bring our concerns to our heavenly Father and ask for healing but be willing to accept His will if it is contrary to our petitions. Prayer should certainly not be viewed as a means to change the mind of God. For the most part prayer changes us. But God does work through prayer to bring about His sovereign purpose. If we become fatalists then prayer will do us no good, but if we are good Biblical Calvinists we will gain much from prayer.

Charles mentions an excellent point. If I have to "think" about my prayers, and make sure they line up with my systematic, what type of prayer life is that?

Does not the Holy Spirit speak for us?

Mike, I apologize if I misunderstood you, you obvioulsy are not implying not to pray. But that said, you still appear to be thinking how to pray according to some systematic. WHy drive yourself nuts like this? just get on our knees and pray.

When Joshua said, "Choose you this day whom you shall serve." Did he later think, wow why did I say it like that? they will think I am a free willy!!!!!!!!!!

[Mickey]

But that said, you still appear to be thinking how to pray according to some systematic.

Perhaps I am praying according to a systematic, I think everyone does though. But what is wrong with that? I mean, I live according to a systematic; dont you?. The way I witness, teach, and make dissisions are all according to what I know is true. Why would my prayers be any different? When we worship, we worship in spirit and in truth, also Paul says in 1 Cor 14:15 that he prays with his spirit and mind.

WHy drive yourself nuts like this? just get on our knees and pray.

Just let'er rip hu!

It doesn't drive me nuts at all. The only way I could think that praying according to a systematic would drive someone nuts is if they had no grasp on reallity as outlined in the scripture in the first place. Sure it may be difficult to find the practical implications of theological concepts to someone who is new to theology or has been blinded by the traditions of men for so many years he/she, 'just can't see how it could work any other way.' Your statement makes it sound like Theology has no place in practical living, let alone our communication with God. If anything the acknowledgement of truth in our prayers is something that I would think is pleasing to God. Now I know you are not advocating that anything goes (at least I hope you are not). But I think there is just a bit of truth in what I just wrote.
Let me be clear here. I am not saying that in our prayers we should be quoting from confessions or using theological terminologies. If one want to do that then thats up to them. What I am contrasting the above to, is those who I have heard pray who profess to be Calvinists and my own prayers in the past. They are no different than an Arminian, Justinian, Palagian, etc...Why is that? Arminianism isn't reallity so why pray like it is?

[Robert R. Higby]

There is an oft-quoted and (in my estimation) frivolous saying that is loved and 'babbled' in the churches of Spurgeonism:

Trust as if everything depends on God's sovereign will; pray and work as if everything depends on you.

I hate this idiom and am convinced it is one of the most anti-scriptural sentiments ever invented by undiscerning men!

Most of prayer (whether public or private) should focus on God's sovereign purposes of grace and the offering of ourselves as servants to God in submission to his unalterable will--regardless of the pain and inconvenience that this might involve. Such an emphasis stands in direct contrast to those prayers offered in most worship services today--which focus on personal petition of wish above all else (by sheer quantity of content). Nowhere in the Bible is prayer focused primarily on:

1. Petition for salvation of family or 'loved ones' in contrast to the rest of the world.
2. Petition for deliverance from the common ailments, inconveniences, and gloominess of daily life itself.

Yet how often are these things made the primary focus of corporate prayer events?

[lionovjudah]

But that said, you still appear to be thinking how to pray according to some systematic.

Perhaps I am praying according to a systematic, I think everyone does though. But what is wrong with that? I mean, I live according to a systematic; dont you?. The way I witness, teach, and make dissisions are all according to what I know is true. Why would my prayers be any different? When we worship, we worship in spirit and in truth, also Paul says in 1 Cor 14:15 that he prays with his spirit and mind.

WHy drive yourself nuts like this? just get on our knees and pray.

Just let'er rip hu!

It doesn't drive me nuts at all. The only way I could think that praying according to a systematic would drive someone nuts is if they had no grasp on reallity as outlined in the scripture in the first place. Sure it may be difficult to find the practical implications of theological concepts to someone who is new to theology or has been blinded by the traditions of men for so many years he/she, 'just can't see how it could work any other way.' Your statement makes it sound like Theology has no place in practical living, let alone our communication with God. If anything the acknowledgement of truth in our prayers is something that I would think is pleasing to God. Now I know you are not advocating that anything goes (at least I hope you are not). But I think there is just a bit of truth in what I just wrote.
Let me be clear here. I am not saying that in our prayers we should be quoting from confessions or using theological terminologies. If one want to do that then thats up to them. What I am contrasting the above to, is those who I have heard pray who profess to be Calvinists and my own prayers in the past. They are no different than an Arminian, Justinian, Palagian, etc...Why is that? Arminianism isn't reallity so why pray like it is?

I guess I am misunderstanding what certain "Inian" prayers would sound like Mike.

THe point I am tryign to make is when we are alone with God, I do not think of the words all the time. When I do, they come out dead and vain.

Perhaps we should have an example of a calvinist prayer, an arminian prayer, and perhaps a biblical prayer!!!!!!!


Does one have to go through T U L I P when we pray?

For instance, if you asked me to pray for you, would it go like this:

Lord, Mike is a rotten vile wretch, I pray you have chosen him before the foundations of the world. We know you only died for your sheep. Irresistably call him with your grace, And preserve him to the end..


now an arminian.: Lord, Mike is not that bad, I know many worse, give him a chance to choose you, you died for all, have mercy on him if he resists you, and if he falls away, forgive him.


biblical: Lord have mercy on me and mike, the chief of sinners we are!!!!!