Quiz for "Soul Winners"

[lionovjudah]

Joe, remember the quiz?

6.Were Christ’s parables used as "sermon illustrations" to make His teachings plain? (Mark 4.11-12)

Mk 4:11-12, (KJV), And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: (12) That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

These things are made clear to God's people in time. Honestly, it's very clear to me.

Take for example this passage: Prov 17:15, (KJV), He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

Everyone that loves to talk about how God hates the elect before conversion ignores this passage. After all, God hates all workers of iniquity. And all men are workers of iniquity, right? Well then if God justifies workers of iniquity, this is an abomination to him according to this passage!

Look, God only justified those He saw as righteous! God only sent Jesus for those He already saw as righteous. All throughout the OT where it speaks of God loving the righteous and hating the wicked - it is only from God's perspective. Even now, I myself do wicked things, yet I know that the Lord loves me and continues to see me as justified! You can make just as much a case for the elect being servants of satan after conversion as you can before conversion. We must view ourselves from God's perspective and not our own or else we will not understand.

Brandan

This is all well and good BRandan, but still fails to address Christs OWN words, who is God Himself. He said He came not for the righteouss, he came to lead sinners to repentance. How else am I supposed to read that?

I am not saying He hates those whom He was sent for. I believe he loves them and that is why He seeks and saves them. Everything Christ spoke was not in a parable.

Scriptures says were were enimies, at emnity against Him. Servants of darkness. But yet He loved us and saved His elect. Now that is grace Brandan. That is Sovereignty.

IT is more Sovereign to Love someone who hates you than love someone who loves you.

Scripture becomes pointless to me if everything is answered with, "Well God decreed this in eternity. I believe He did, but God also interacted in time with everyone in the writ.

We were not created to live in His secret council before the foundations of the earth. And God Did not stop at His decree BRandan. DO you see how this mirrors an open theism? He decreed, and thats it? Everything will happen? God interacts with His creation daily, in time. He also predestined the means.

The Heidelbergh Cat # 5 says we hate God and our neighbor. That is all I am saying. And until the work of the Holy Spirit comes upon us, we remain in that condition. We are not born righteuoss, we are not born without adams taint.

And I can not find one instance where one in scripture speaks or believes are you are elevated your understanding to.

I cannot find one instance of a person who thought and viwed life only from the eternal decree and not that He is a sinner, Got is angry with them, but yet loves them in Christ.

I cannto and will not throw out the numerous scriptures that plainly show we served darkness, they have to remain in the writ.

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

We were not created to live in His secret council before the foundations of the earth. And God Did not stop at His decree BRandan. DO you see how this mirrors an open theism? He decreed, and thats it? Everything will happen? God interacts with His creation daily, in time. He also predestined the means.

Gen 2:2, (KJV), "... And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

Heb 4:1-4, (KJV) "... Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."

[Tobias Crisp]

Gen 2:2, (KJV), "... And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

Heb 4:1-4, (KJV) "... Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."

UGC, I'm not here necessarily to defense LOJ, but I would say that the Scriptures you used do not refute what LOJ was saying. These Scriptures relate to God's hand in creation. What LOJ is arguing, if I understand him correctly, is the outworking of God's decree through Providence.

[lionovjudah]

Gen 2:2, (KJV), "... And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

Heb 4:1-4, (KJV) "... Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."

Scott, this rest is in regards to His creation, not His activity in the world. Again you are espousing a God who does nto interact with His creation in time. A god who did not wrestle jacob, who did nto smite Paul on the road to damascus, a God who did not come in the fullness of time incarnate. He came and tabernacled amongst us Scott.

[lionovjudah]

UGC, I'm not here necessarily to defense LOJ, but I would say that the Scriptures you used do not refute what LOJ was saying. These Scriptures relate to God's hand in creation. What LOJ is arguing, if I understand him correctly, is the outworking of God's decree through Providence.

Yes, exactly Anthony. Is God ACTIVELY working with His creation right now, or has he been done since his eternal council or the 7th day?

Is He an absentee Lanlord who wound the clock of decrees, and is now sleeping? Or is He ACTIVELY present with His Creation as we speak?

[Ugly_Gaunt_Cow]

UGC, I'm not here necessarily to defense LOJ, but I would say that the Scriptures you used do not refute what LOJ was saying. These Scriptures relate to God's hand in creation. What LOJ is arguing, if I understand him correctly, is the outworking of God's decree through Providence.

Right, my bad.

God rested from works, not providence.

Sorry Joe.

[Robert R. Higby]

Again you are espousing a God who does nto interact with His creation in time. A god who did not wrestle jacob, who did nto smite Paul on the road to damascus, a God who did not come in the fullness of time incarnate. He came and tabernacled amongst us Scott.

God's purposes in eternity are REAL with regard to history, not abstract decrees. Everything that God does in time, including the most dramatic and controversial acts, are a done deal transcendant of all time and space. This is the only reality that gives actual history any true meaning.

[GraceAmbassador]

God's purposes in eternity are REAL with regard to history, not abstract decrees. Everything that God does in time, including the most dramatic and controversial acts, are a done deal transcendant of all time and space. This is the only reality that gives actual history any true meaning.

Absolutely correct!

In order to understand God, one must have in perspective the fact that God DOES NOT intervenes in "time" (measured time) to procure His decrees, as if He is finding the best way to write them in eternity; God intervenes in measured time, and interacts with His creatures in "measured time" TO EXECUTE his ETERNAL decrees.

I know I said that in the other thread, including the above, but in creation, in the event with Abraham and Isaac, jumping to the life of Ezekiah, to whom God added 15 years of life, and even the events on the cross and the conversion of Paul were not decisions of God or providences of God seeking to manage a eminent problem as if to resolve it; all these interventions were His planned decrees being executed.

We either believe that He "declares the end from ghe beginning and from the ancient times the things that are not yet done..." or we believe God is a fireman on duty waiting for the alarm to ring so He can douce some random fires in the avenues of eternety. Not So! His counsel shall stand and He will do (execute) His pleasure!

Milt

[lionovjudah]

Absolutely correct!

In order to understand God, one must have in perspective the fact that God DOES NOT intervenes in "time" (measured time) to procure His decrees, as if He is finding the best way to write them in eternity; God intervenes in measured time, and interacts with His creatures in "measured time" TO EXECUTE his ETERNAL decrees.

I do not know what this means Milt "measured time"

We either believe that He "declares the end from ghe beginning and from the ancient times the things that are not yet done..." or we believe God is a fireman on duty waiting for the alarm to ring so He can douce some random fires in the avenues of eternety. Not So! His counsel shall stand and He will do (execute) His pleasure!

Milt

Of course this is true. even the execution of His decree is decreed per se' And it actually becomes a historical event in time

[GraceAmbassador]

I do not know what this means Milt "measured time"

The time in which we live. The time "under the sun" to use Ecclesiastes expression. The "kronos" time, whence we derive the word "chronology".

Milt

[lionovjudah]

The time in which we live. The time "under the sun" to use Ecclesiastes expression. The "kronos" time, whence we derive the word "chronology".

Milt

Thanx Milt.

THat is what I only mean when I speak of time. IF necessary I will qualify it in the future.


Joe