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Thread: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

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    Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Hi. I have a question for some of those here who might be knowledgeble in hebrew/aramaic. Can someone give the exact word for word translation for Daniel 9:25-27, without adding any "extra words" [putting those in brackets if you do], using the same word for each hebrew word found in the rest of the OT even if it doesn't make "sense" with the correct tenses. I really would appreciate it. This is what I come up with so far, but translations are all over the map on this. Thanks and blessings


    Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand/consider, [That] from the going forth of the Word/command To /return back/turn backto/ and build/build up Jerusalem Until messiah the prince/ruler, [There shall be] seven weeks/7's and sixty-two weeks/7's; The street/broad plaza shall be built/built up returned again, and the gold/diligently/sharp threshing, Even in troublesome/anguishing/straight times.

    26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah/an annointed shall be "cut off", but not for Himself/shall have nothing; And the people of the prince/ruler who is to come/enter into Shall destroy/corrupt the city and the sanctuary. The end of it [shall be] with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations/astonishments are determined.

    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    Hi. I have a question for some of those here who might be knowledgeble in hebrew/aramaic. Can someone give the exact word for word translation for Daniel 9:25-27, without adding any "extra words" [putting those in brackets if you do], using the same word for each hebrew word found in the rest of the OT even if it doesn't make "sense" with the correct tenses. I really would appreciate it. This is what I come up with so far, but translations are all over the map on this. Thanks and blessings


    "
    What is it you are trying to get at? What exegetical truth are trying to find?
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Originally Posted by InChristAlwaysHi. I have a question for some of those here who might be knowledgeble in hebrew/aramaic. Can someone give the exact word for word translation for Daniel 9:25-27, without adding any "extra words" [putting those in brackets if you do], using the same word for each hebrew word found in the rest of the OT even if it doesn't make "sense" with the correct tenses. I really would appreciate it. This is what I come up with so far, but translations are all over the map on this. Thanks and blessings
    Quote Originally Posted by ray kikkert
    What is it you are trying to get at? What exegetical truth are trying to find?
    Hi rk. Thanks for responding. For some reason, I view the 70weeks as a "spiritual" Jerusalem built up, not a "physical" city, as that is one reason God sent Jesus. Solomon's temple had to be "rebuilt" in order for Jesus to come to it[Malachi 3], but also to destroy it later as prophecied[Olivet Discourse/Reve 11].

    It appears the 70 weeks are also in conjunction with Daniel 11/12, the Time of the End/[Time of the Gentiles/Nations], which is mentioned 5 times in Daniel and appears to be when the "last plague" is poured out in revelation. Daniel 11 is actually one of the toughest chapters to study and Translate and concerns a great "host/war" ending with "Michael" coming to the rescue of Daniel's people.[Michael is also shown in Reve 12].

    I am retired and since the Lord came into my life 2 yrs ago, I have enjoyed reading and studying the Bible a lot, but translating Daniel is pretty time consuming, as I look up each word and how it is used in the rest of the OT. Blessings.

    Dani 9:, [There shall be] seven weeks/7's and sixty-two weeks/7's; The street/broad plaza shall be built/built up returned again, and the gold/diligently/sharp threshing[#02742], Even in troublesome/anguishing/straight times.

    the street 07339 r@chob {rekh-obe'} or r@chowb {rekh-obe'}
    from 07337; TWOT - 2143d; n f
    AV - street 40, ways 2, places 1; 43
    1) broad or open place or plaza 7339 rchob rekh-obe' or rchowb {rekh-obe'}; from 7337; a width, i.e. (concretely) avenue or area:--broad place (way), street. See also 1050.


    and the wall 02742 charuwts {khaw-roots'} or charuts {khaw-roots'}
    pass. participle of 02782; TWOT - 752a,b,753a
    AV - gold 6, diligent 5, decision 2, threshing instrument 2, sharp 1,
    sharp things 1, wall 1; 18
    adj 1) sharp-pointed, sharp, diligent n m 2) strict decision, decision


    Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision[#02742].
    Reve 11:8 And their dead bodies [will lie] in thestreet[#4113] of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    the street 4113 plateia {plat-i'-ah} from 4116;; n f
    AV - street 9; 9
    1) a broad way, a street 4113 plateia plat-i'-ah feminine of 4116; a wide "plat" or "place", i.e. open square:--street.


    Revelation 21:21 The twelve gates [were] twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street[#4113] of the city [was] pure gold, like transparent glass.

    Dan 8:17 So he came 0935 near 0681 where I stood 05977: and when he came 0935 , I was afraid 01204 , and fell 05307 upon my face 06440: but he said 0559 unto me, Understand 0995 , O son 01121 of man 0120: for at the time 06256 of the end 07093[shall be] the vision 02377.

    Dan 11:35 And [some] of them of understanding 07919 shall fall 03782 , to try 06884 them, and to purge 01305 , and to make [them] white 03835 , [even] to the time 06256 of the end 07093: because [it is] yet for a time appointed 04150.

    Dan 11:40 And at the time 06256 of the end 07093 shall the king 04428 of the south 05045 push 05055 at him: and the king 04428 of the north 06828 shall come against him like a whirlwind 08175 , with chariots 07393, and with horsemen 06571, and with many 07227 ships 0591; and he shall enter 0935 into the countries 0776, and shall overflow 07857 and pass over 05674 .

    Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel 01840, shut up 05640 the words 01697, and seal 02856 the book 05612, [even] to the time 06256 of the end 07093: many 07227 shall run to and fro 07751 , and knowledge 01847 shall be increased 07235 .

    Dan 12:9 And he said 0559 , Go thy way 03212 , Daniel 01840: for the words 01697 [are] closed up 05640 and sealed 02856 till the time 06256of the end 07093.

    Revelation 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth." 17 And, the seventh, poured out his bowl upon the air.--And there came forth a loud voice out of the sanctuary, from the throne, saying--It is done!

    reve 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.


    Last edited by InChristAlways; 07-02-2005 at 03:10 AM.
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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    I am curious to see how others view the 70 weeks/Daniel 12, and though it is not a "salvatic" issue, it could be a "comfort" issue for those who are still waiting for this fulfillment along with Daniel 12. Daniel 11 is an awsome chapter in that book and if anyone here is interested in working on the translation of it, please pm me or I can start a topic just on that particular chapter.
    Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus["posses thou the Furnace"], King of Persia["pure/splended"], a thing, was revealed unto Daniel["God is my Judge"], whose name was called Belteshazzar["Lord of the straightened treasure"]; and True was the thing, even [concerned] a great Army/Host, and he understood the thing, and had understanding in the sight/appearance.
    5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist [was] girded with gold of Uphaz! 6 His body [was] like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude.14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision [refers] to [many] days yet [to come."]

    Discussion between 2 other christians.

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ad.php?t=56960
    And what about the 70 week prophecy? If it had been completed already, do you consider the world today as it is described after the completion of 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24: To finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy?

    Yes.
    I don't see transgressions come to an end, everlasting righteousness, vision and prophecy sealed, or Jesus as the reigning king.

    How do you see Jesus at present?
    Prophecy has not been sealed up, even you still await for it to be fulfilled.

    Yawn, the canon is closed and has been since the first century.
    Quote: Originally posted by malcolm
    So, other than not singing certain songs, being a Preterist makes no other practical difference to your Christian life? I suspect I'm missing something here.

    If you are not expecting Jesus to come soon, then presumably you are also not expecting the anti-Christ (the final one) to come soon. Then you are also not expecting persecution or tribulation anytime soon. If so, that kind of thing makes a huge difference in a person's Christian life - or it should do, at least.

    Quote: Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
    Generally speaking it is not a salvational issue if your eschatology doesn't lead you to deny things that are such as hyperpreterism .

    I do not think I used the word "refuse" - I think I said I will not sing them. Also when I had the bizarre experience of going to a hypercharismatic church complete with flopping on the floor, twitching, hysterical laughing, and barking I did REFUSE to take up the chant urging the Holy Spirit to make us all drunk in the Spirit. In fact I whispered to my husband, this is enough, I am going.

    We visit a lot of churches, we like seeing how God is working in different denominations and to take down our own prejudices and you get to hear a lot of songs, some familiar, some not, some kinda strange. With the songs I was referring to there is one that has a line professing belief that Jesus' Second Coming would be soon as in our lifetimes. I do not believe that. In my own conscience I will profess things in song to God that I do not in fact believe. I tried it - it made me a phoney. There are other songs that speak of our complete willingness to submit to Christ - I have a hard time to sing that as I rebel, so I change the words for me to make it a request to mold me into complete willingness - there are many like that, and I don't think a person in the building qualifies to sing them.

    This carries through to all of life. It amazes me that as Christians we think only the "salvational things" matter. Huh? I can narrow those down to very few pages - but God seemed to think that the whole Bible was important to understand. I don't just want to know salvation, I want to know all that God has said - and eschatology is not just one small Christian area. It is my position that the Bible really can be meta-chacterized by three themes - Protology - Christology - Eschatology. Did you know that Genesis is an escahtological book? Sure it is.
    Last edited by InChristAlways; 07-09-2005 at 02:47 PM.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    I have a study in my 'paper archives' on this subject by a Hebrew scholar denying any legitimacy to literalizing the seventy sevens. I will have to find it--considering the volumes of paper that I have, it may be difficult! Please be patient.
    Now see here how sleepy-headed all our opponents are, and how little it helps a man to rely on the ancient fathers, for all their repute down the course of the ages! Were they not all equally blind to, yes, and heeldess of, Paul's clearest and and plainest words?

    --Martin Luther

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    InChristAlways is on a distinguished road InChristAlways's Avatar
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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    I have a study in my 'paper archives' on this subject by a Hebrew scholar denying any legitimacy to literalizing the seventy sevens. I will have to find it--considering the volumes of paper that I have, it may be difficult! Please be patient.
    Hi BT. Thanks. I did post what I have on Daniel 11 using color codes for all of it[link at bottom]. This would appear to be the 70 weeks also.?

    I believe that chapt and chapt 12 holds a lot of answers for not only revelation [which is a great "battle" in itself]but what it would have meant to "Daniel's people" and the "OC jews" back in Jesus's time,[not the ones of today], so I am trying to use both my spirit and "jewish/hebrew" eyes LOL. Jesus mentioned the "abomination that causes desolation" so it was still FUTURE from when He said it. It may be an apostate Jewish rebellion?
    Matthew 24:15 " Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

    Mark 13:14 " So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    Dan 11:31 Armsshall stand on His part, andThey shall Profane the Sanctuary, even the Fortress, and shall Take Away the Continual [Burnt-Offering], and theyshall Set Up the Abomination That Maketh Desolate.
    32 He shall Seduce with Flattery Those who Violate the Covenant; but the People who Know Their God shall Stand Firm and Take Action.
    I hope to get more christians interested in Daniel in reference to revelation though it is very "time consuming" but I believe it is fascinating myself and I feel like I am right back there with Daniel visioning all of this and trying to put myself "into" that chapter.
    Blessings.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...4075#post34075
    Last edited by InChristAlways; 07-13-2005 at 11:38 AM.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    I just happen to read a little bit from josephus today trying to find out if any of his writings could be used to help with Daniel's AOD.

    Jesus could have been talking about either "jewish" or "gentile/roman" armies causing it to be desolate?. What would the holy place be today
    Matthew 24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation[#2050], which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

    Daniel 11:31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily [sacrifices,] and place [there] the abomination of desolation.

    Daniel 12:11 "And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, [there shall be] one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    Exodus 19:6 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation[#01471].' These [are] the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

    Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation[#01471], [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
    http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/
    ........While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children.....The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ;........ ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. On the appearance of the Roman army, the factious Jews united, and, rushing furiously out of the city repulsed the tenth legion, which was with difficulty preserved..
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    I just happen to read a little bit from josephus today trying to find out if any of his writings could be used to help with Daniel's AOD.

    Jesus could have been talking about either "jewish" or "gentile/roman" armies causing it to be desolate?. What would the holy place be today [size=4]http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/
    Matthew 24:15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation[#2050], which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

    Calvins commentary:
    Matthew 24:15. When you shall see the abomination of desolation. Because the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem, together with the overthrow of the whole Jewish government, was (as we have already said) a thing incredible, and because it might be thought strange, that the disciples could not be saved without being torn from that nation, to which had been committed the adoption and the covenant (Romans 9:4) of eternal salvation, Christ confirms both by the testimony of Daniel. As if he had said, That you may not be too strongly attached to the temple and to the ceremonies of the Law, God has limited them to a fixed time, 3 and has long ago declared, that when the Redeemer should come, sacrifices would cease; and that it may not give you uneasiness to be cut off from your own nation, God has also forewarned his people, that in due time it would be rejected. Such a prediction was not only well adapted for removing ground of offense, but likewise for animating the minds of the godly, that amidst the sorest calamities--knowing that God was looking upon them, and was taking care of their salvation--they might betake themselves to the sacred anchor, where, amidst the most dreadful heavings of the billows, their condition would be firm and secure.
    But before I proceed farther, I must examine the passage which is quoted by Christ. Those commentators are, I think, mistaken, who think that this quotation is made from the ninth chapter of the Book of Daniel. 4 For there we do not literally find the words, abomination, of desolation; and it is certain that the angel does not there speak of the final destruction which Christ now mentions, but of the temporary dispersion which was brought about by the tyranny of Antiochus. 5 But in the twelfth chapter the angel predicts what is called the final abrogation of the services of the Law, 6 which was to take place at the coming of Christ. For, after having exhorted believers to unshaken constancy, he fixes absolutely the time both of the ruin and of the restoration. 7
    From the time, says he, that the daily sacrifices shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who shall wait till he come to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days, (Daniel 12:11, 12.)
    I am aware that this passage is tortured in a variety of ways on account of its obscurity; but I consider the natural meaning of it to be, that the angel declares that, after the temple has been once purified from the pollutions and idols of Antiochus, another period will arrive when it will be exposed to a new profanation, and when all its sacredness and majesty will be for ever lost. 8 And as that message was sad and melancholy, he again recalls the prophet to one year, and two years, and six months. These words denote both the duration and the close of the calamities; for, in an interrupted succession of calamities, the course of one year appears to us very long, but when that space of time is doubled, the distress is greatly increased. The Spirit therefore exhorts believers to prepare themselves for the exercise of patience, not only for a single year, that is, for a long period, but to lay their account with enduring tribulations through an uninterrupted succession of many ages. There is no small consolation also in the phrase, half a time, (Daniel 12:7) for though the tribulations be of long continuance, yet the Spirit shows that they will not be perpetual. And, indeed, he had formerly used this form of expression: The calamity of the Church shall last through a time, times, and half a time, (Daniel 7:25.) But now he reckons the period of three years and six months by days, that believers may be more and more hardened by a very long continuance of calamities; for it is customary with men in adversity to compute time, not by years or months, but by days, a single day being, in their estimation, equal to a year. 9 He says that those will be happy who bear up to the end of that period; that is, who with invincible patience persevere to the end.
    Now Christ selects only what suited his purpose, namely, that the termination of sacrifices was at hand, and that the abomination, which was the sign of the final desolation, would be placed in the temple. But as the Jews were too strongly attached to their present condition, and therefore paid little attention to the prophecies which foretold the abolition of it, Christ, as if endeavoring to gain their ear, bids them read attentively that passage, where they would learn that what appeared to them difficult to be believed was plainly declared by the Prophets. 10 Abomination means profanation; for this word denotes uncleanness, 11 which corrupts or overturns the pure worship of God. It is called desolation, because it drew along with it the destruction of the temple and of the government; as he had formerly said, (Daniel 9:27,) that the pollution introduced by Antiochus was, as it were, the standard of temporary desolation; for such I conceive to be the meaning of the wing, or, "spreading out." 12 It is a mistake to suppose that this expression denotes the siege of Jerusalem, and the mistake receives no countenance from the words of Luke, who did not intend to say the same thing, but something quite different. For that city having been formerly delivered, when it appeared to be in the midst of destruction, lest believers should expect something of the same kind in future, Christ declares that, as soon as it would be surrounded by armies, it was utterly ruined, because it was wholly deprived of divine assistance. The meaning therefore is, that the issue of the war will not be doubtful, because that city is devoted to destruction, which it will not be able to escape any more than to rescind a decree of heaven. Accordingly, Luke shortly afterwards adds, that Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, a mode of expression which denotes utter ruin. But as it might appear to be strange that the holy city should be thus given up to the Gentiles, to do with it as they pleased, he adds a consolation, 13 that it was only for a time that so much liberty was allowed to the Gentiles, till their iniquity was ripe, and the vengeance which had been reserved for them was fully displayed.


    3 "Dieu a limité certain temps auquel ces choses prendrent fin;"--"God has limited a certain time when those things shall be terminated."

    4 The passage here referred to, and from which CALVIN thinks that the quotation is not made, is Daniel 9:27, And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifices and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading or abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The other passage, from which he supposes the quotation to have been actually made, is Daniel 12:11, And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. We have given both passages, as they stand in the authorized version.--Ed.

    5 Antiochus, known in history by the surname Epiphanes, or, Illustrious, but more frequently denominated by the Jews who had beheld his cruelties, and by others who were shocked at the indecency of his public life, Antiochus Epimanes, or, Furious.--Ed.

    6 "Du service et des ceremonies de la Loy ;"--"of the service and of the ceremonies of the Law."

    7 "Car apres qu'il avoit exhortd les fideles k une constance ferme et bien assuree, et avoit predit.que l'advenement de Christ mettroit fin aux ceremonies, et doan, pour signe la profanation externe du temple, finale-ment au chapitre treizieme (douzieme?) il determine un temps certain tant de la ruine que du restablissement."--"For after having exhorted believers to a firm and assured constancy, and having predicted that the coming of Christ would put an end to ceremonies, and having given the outward profanation of the temple as a sign, finally, in the thirteenth (twelfth?) chapter he determines a fixed time both for the ruin and for the restoration."

    8 "Sans esperance de plus la recouvrer;"--"without the expectation of ever again recovering it."

    9 In prophetic language one day stands for a year, a Jewish month (of thirty days) for thirty years, and a Jewish year (of three hundred and sixty days) for three hundred and sixty years. Thus a time, or Jewish year, stood for three hundred and sixty years; times, or two Jewish years, stood for seven hundred and twenty years; and half a time, or half of a Jewish year, stood for one hundred and eighty years; so that the time, times, and half a time, (Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 12:14,) or three years and a half, represented one thousand two hundred and sixty years. By a similar computation, forty-two months, (Revelation 11:2; 13:5,) of thirty days each, denoted the same period.--Ed.

    10 "Sinon qu'on vueille prendre. ceci comme estant dit en la personne de l'Evangeliste; toutesfois il est plus vray-semblable que c'est Christ qui parle, et que suyvant son propos d'un fil continuel, il exhorte les siens estre attentifs a bon escient."--"Unless we choose to take this as having been said in the person of the Evangelist; yet it is more probable that it is Christ who speaks, and that, following out his subject, he exhorts his followers to be earnestly attentive."

    11 "La pollution, immondicit,, et souillure ;"--"pollution, uncleanness, and defilement."

    12 Mmsm Myuwqs pnk, the wing (or, spreading out) of abominations which maketh desolate.--Ed

    13 "Il adjouste quant et quant une consolation speciale pour le regard des fideles, (laquelle Daniel omet, pource qu'il parle à tout le corps du peuple;")--"he adds to it a special consolation with respect to believers, (which Daniel leaves out, because he speaks to the whole body of the people.")

    Daniel 11:31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily [sacrifices,] and place [there] the abomination of desolation.

    Calvins commentary:

    Here the angel describes the intestine evils of the Church, and more fully explains what he touched on in the last verse. He says, The arms shall stand up for Antiochus. Some explain this of the garrison which that tyrant imposed on Jerusalem. But it is seems too far-fetched. I do not hesitate to suppose the angel to refer here to the apostates and forsakers of the Law. Arms, then, shall stand up from him, meaning, he shall not contend in his own strength, but shall rely upon the people's assistance. Many should offer themselves in obedience to him, and thus Antiochus would find a party devoted to himself at Jerusalem, which should willingly prostitute itself to his will. He afterwards adds, They shall profane the sanctuary of strength. The angel here joins together Antiochus and these impious apostates. (2 Maccabees 5:2.) To favor him, the temple is said to be polluted, and this was fulfilled when the statue of Jupiter Olympius was erected there. The tyranny and violence of Antiochus continued long afterwards, as we shall see in its own place. He brought the statue of the Olympian Jove into the temple, for the purpose of overthrowing the worship of God, and then he introduced other corruption's, which vitiated the purity of God's service. He might in one moment have overthrown the whole Law, but he first tried to mingle many superstitions with God's Law, and thus to estrange the Jews by degrees from true and sincere piety. The angel speaks of the sanctuary of power, to shew the faithful that Antiochus is not the conqueror of God, who was never deprived of his power, but continued the guardian and keeper of his temple even unto the end. He uses this epithet for the temple, to assure the pious that God had not given way to the violence of the tyrant. His authority stood untouched and untainted, although his temple was exposed to such foul pollution.
    Lastly, he wished the faithful to retain by this teaching a sense of God's unconquered power in choosing that temple for his dwelling-place, although for a time Antiochus was so insulting, and was permitted to profane it with his impious crew. This instruction urged the pious to look upon God's power with the eye of faith, although it was then hidden from their view, and was trampled under foot by the impious in the pride of their audacity. Sorrowful indeed was the spectacle of this statue erected within the temple, for God, according to our previous statement, promised to be the defender of that sacred mountain. When the impious were raging thus insultingly, who would not have thought God to be altogether conquered and unable to defend his residence any longer? The angel then here encourages the faithful to cultivate far different thoughts from those suggested by the prospect before them. The temple, then, seemed weak and deprived of every protection, and yet with respect to God it was still a sanctuary of strength. He next adds, And they shall abolish the continual sacrifice, which really occurred; but I pass it over shortly now, as I shall have another opportunity of explaining it suitably and fully. And they shall place, or set up, that abomination which shall cause astonishment. For who would not have been astonished when he saw the temple deserted by the Almighty? For if God cared for the temple services, why did he not resist rage like this? Why did he suffer himself to be subjected to such disgraceful indignity? The angel meets such temptations as these by saying, even if the very best men are astonished at such disgrace, yet nothing happens by chance; for God had already foreseen and decreed all things. They would not have been predicted, unless God had wished to prove the people's faith, and to exact the penalty for their ingratitude. But I cannot complete the subject to-day.
    PRAYER.
    Grant, Almighty God, that as we are instructed by thy Spirit and armed by thy sacred teaching, we may carry on the war bravely with open enemies and with all who boldly oppose true religion. May we also constantly despise all domestic foes and apostates, and resist them manfully. May we never be disturbed, even if various tumults should arise in thy Church. May we fix our eyes upon thee, and always expect a happier issue than appears possible at the time, until at length thou shalt fulfill thy promises. And may all events which now seem contrary to us, issue in our salvation, when thy Son our Redeemer shall appear. -- Amen.
    Lecture Sixty-First
    We stated in the last Lecture, the seriousness of the test by which God proved the faithfulness of his people, in allowing Antiochus such unbounded liberty to pollute the Temple, and to abolish, for a time, all the sacrifices and services. He next set up in the midst of the Temple that abomination which cast down the spirits of the pious; for that prodigy could not be witnessed without the most profound astonishment. No one could suppose it possible, that God would expose his own sanctuary to such dishonor, as it was the only one which he had chosen in the whole world. It now follows, And he shall deceive the transgressors of the covenant with blandishment, but a people knowing their God will retain it firmly and practice it. Here Daniel more clearly expresses what he had previously said of the corruption and overthrow of God's worship, as Antiochus should enticingly win over to himself a perfidious portion of those who were nominally, at, least, God's people. He thus repeats what we observed before. These hypocrites were like the arms of Antiochus; for had he captured the city by the force of arms, still he would not have dared to offer these insults to God's Temple, unless he had received assistance from those apostates who rejected all fear of the Almighty, and whom ambition and avarice alone had impelled to unite with that impious tyrant, who was the avowed and professed enemy of their religion. The angel, then, here confirms what he had previously said, shewing how the wicked and impious despisers of the covenant should be tools in the hand of this robber. For the first word of verse 32 is derived from esr reshegn, "to do wickedly," and refers to that special act of sinfulness, their despising God's covenant. This refers to those intestine enemies who had previously boasted themselves to be sons of Abraham, and who were masked by circumcision, the sign of that covenant. He does not here point out any of the mere dregs of the people, but the impious priests, Menelaus, Jason, and others like them, as the passage has already been explained. He says then, these should be deceived by the blandishments of Antiochus. He doubtless offered to the priests and to others what he thought they would value most; one he set over the Temple, another he deceived with vain and fallacious promises for a time, by distributing a variety of gifts among them. In this way he corrupted them all by his flatteries. To these the Prophet opposes the sincere worshippers of God, and the Hebrew copula ought to be understood here as implying this contrast. He had already spoken of many as deceived by vain promises, and had called them transgressors of the covenant: he now adds, But the people who know God shall strengthen themselves and shall do it. The angel means that the perfidy of those of whom he had spoken, should not prevail with the pious to lead them into the same alliance of wickedness, and to hurl them headlong into the same snares. Although such was the perfidy of these revolters, yet all who know God, says he, shall strengthen themselves.
    This passage is specially worthy of notice, as experience teaches how very few stand their ground, when many fall away. The example of one often draws with it a hundred into the same rule; but the constancy of a hundred is scarcely sufficient to retain one in his position. In this case we behold the depth of our natural depravity. For we are not only moved, but shaken by the very slightest breezes, and even when God sets before us a firm resting-place, still we do not cease our vacillation. When an Apostle sets before us the examples of the saints, he says, a cloud of witnesses is ever gazing upon us, with the view of retaining us in the fear of God, and in the pure confession of our faith. (Hebrews 12:1.) But that cloud vanishes too soon from our view. Meanwhile, if any trifler whom we know to be a man of no weight, and whom we have ourselves condemned, -- if such a one should decline even so little from the right way, we think such an example sufficient to excuse us. Wherefore, I had good reason for stating how this passage lays open to us our perverse and malignant disposition. We can scarcely be attracted towards God by a multiplicity of appliances, but we are easily dragged towards the devil to our own destruction. Hence we ought diligently to meditate upon this passage, and continually to reflect upon the Prophet's language. Although apostates may be deceived by flatteries and reject God's worship, betray the Church and throw off all semblance of piety, yet all the pious shall stand fast in the faith. Let no one therefore quote the example of the thoughtless to excuse his fault, if he trait are the perfidious, the double-minded, and the hypocritical. The angel here depicts to us a picture of the Church, by shewing how many should prove backsliders; but this levity, inconsistency, and perfidy ought never to be an obstacle to the foes of God to impede their progress in faith and piety.
    We should also notice the epithet which designates the pious. They are called a people knowing their God. The people may be supposed to mean the vulgar, but this is forced. It may also be simply opposed to the profane Gentiles; but I think there is here an implied contrast between the true and genuine sons of Abraham, and the false Israelites, who boasted themselves to be members of the Church when they had nothing but the empty title. For in the prophets as in the writings of Moses, the name "people" is often used in a favorable sense for that elect nation which God had adopted as peculiarly his own. All the Israelites who were descendants of Abraham after the flesh, used to boast with much vanity in their being the elect people, and thus the word was ever on their lips. Wherefore the Prophet reproves the foolish boasting of those who were a. accustomed to shelter themselves under the name of God, and without having anything real in themselves. Hence the people, meaning God's people, shall strengthen themselves; but, by way of correcting any erroneous view, he adds, who shall know God, as in the 73d Psalm, (Psalm 73:1) How good is the God of Israel to those who are upright in heart! Here the Prophet restricts the name of Israel to the elect sons of Abraham who cultivate piety seriously and heartily, as it had become a prevalent habit carelessly to misuse this name of God. So here, the people who shall know their God, means his true people -- those whom he acknowledges as his elect. The angel here makes a distinction between the pious sons of Abraham and the pious worshippers of God. It is worthy of careful observation, that the angel assigns their knowledge of God as the cause and foundation of their constancy. How then, we may ask, does it come to pass, that some few are left, when the apostates thus prostitute themselves? Because their knowledge of God shall prevail, and enable them to overcome these attacks, and bravely to repel them, and to become superior to any temptations. We see, then, the source whence our own fortitude is derived -- the knowledge of God. This acknowledgment is no vain and cold imagination, but springs from that faith which spreads its living root in our hearts. Hence it follows, we do not really acknowledge God, unless we boldly contend when we are put to the test, and remain firm and stable, although Satan endeavors, by various machinations, to weaken our faithfulness. And unless we persist in that firmness which is here described, it is quite clear, that God has never been truly and really acknowledged by us. The relation too is not without its weight in the phrase, the people who shall know their God. Here is a silent reproof, since God revealed himself to the Israelites as far as was sufficient to retain their allegiance. No one, therefore, could offer any excuse without being guilty of impiety, sacrilege, and perfidy, after being so fully instructed by the Law and the prophets. This instruction must now be applied to our own times.
    We observe in these days how many fall off from the Church. Persecution sifts all those who profess to belong to Christ, and thus many are winnowed like chaff, and but a small portion remain steadfast. Their backsliding ought not to overthrow our faithfulness when they so carelessly forsake all piety, either through being enticed by the allurements of Satan, or deceived by the conduct of the ungodly. Let us bear in mind the assertion of the angel, and thus the true knowledge of God will reign supreme in our hearts, and we shall still proceed in the course we have pursued. And to shew how consistently the faithful progress in the teaching of the Law and the Gospel, he says, they shall strengthen themselves and shall do it. Here the word "to do" is taken in the sense of to "execute" -- "exploiter," as we say in France; meaning, they shall summon their courage to discharge their duty; for the word "to do," or "to execute," is referred to the vocation of the pious; they should not be sluggish or slothful in the discharge of their duty, says the Prophet, but should gather courage for these contests. And whence? from the acknowledgment of God. We observe, too, that faith is no idle feeling or cold imagination, lying suffocated in our minds, but an energizing principle. For we may say that from faith springs strength, and from strength execution, and thus we avoid all slothfulness hi our calling.


    Daniel 12:11 "And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, [there shall be] one thousand two hundred and ninety days.


    Calvins Commentary:

    Inconsequence of the obscurity of this passage it has been twisted in a variety of ways. At the end of the ninth chapter I have shewn the impossibility of its referring to the profanation of the Temple which occurred under the tyranny of Antiochus; on this occasion the angel bears witness to such a complete destruction of the Temple, as to leave no room for the hope of its repair and restoration. Then the circumstances of the time convinces us of this. For he then said, Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week, and shall cause the sacrifices and oblation to cease. Afterwards, the abomination that stupifieth shall be added, and desolation or stupor, and then death will distill, says he, upon the astonished or stupefied one. The angel, therefore, there treats of the perpetual devastation of the Temple. So in this passage, without doubt;, he treats of the period after the destruction of the Temple; there could be no hope of restoration, as the law with all its ceremonies would then arrive at its termination. With This view Christ quotes this passage in Matthew 24, while he admonishes his hearers diligently to attend to it. Let him who reads, understand, says he. We have stated this prophecy to be obscure, and hence it requires no ordinary degree of the closest attention. First of all, we must hold this point; the time now treated by the angel begins at the last destruction of the Temple. That devastation happened as soon as the gospel began to be promulgated. God then deserted his Temple, because it was only founded for a time, and was but a shadow, until the Jews so completely violated the whole covenant that no sanctity remained in either the Temple, the nation, or the land itself. Some restrict this to those standards which Tiberius erected on the very highest pinnacle of the Temple, and others to the statue of Caligula, but I have already stated my view of these opinions as too forced. I have no hesitation in referring this language of the angel to that profanation of the Temple which happened after the manifestation of Christ, when sacrifices ceased, and the shadows of the law were abolished. From the time, therefore, at which the sacrifice really ceased to be offered; this refers to the period at which Christ by his advent should abolish the shadows of the law, thus making all offering of sacrifices to God totally valueless. From that time, therefore. Next, from the time at which the stupefying abomination shall have been set up. God's wrath followed the profanation of the Temple. The Jews never anticipated the final cessation of their ceremonies, and always boasted in their peculiar external worship, and unless God had openly demonstrated it before their eyes, they would never have renounced their sacrifices and rites as mere shadowy representations. Hence Jerusalem and their Temple were exposed to the vengeance of the Gentiles. This, therefore, was the setting up of this stupefying abomination; it was a clear testimony to the wrath of God, exhorting the Jews in their confusion to boast no longer in their Temple and its holiness.
    Therefore, from that period there shall be 1290 days. These days make up three years and a half. I have no hesitation in supposing the angel to speak metaphorically. As he previously put one year, or two years, and half a year, for long duration of time, and a happy issue, so he now puts 1290 days. And for what reason? To shew us what must happen when anxieties and troubles oppress us. If a man should fall sick, he will not say, Here I have already been one month, but I have a year before me -- he will not say, Here I have been three days, but now I languish wretchedly for thirty or sixty. The angel, then, purposely puts days for years, implying -- although that time may seem immeasurably prolonged, and may frighten us by its duration, and completely prostrate the spirits of the pious, yet it must be endured. The number of days then is 1290, yet there is no reason why the sons of God should despair in consequence of this number, because they ought always to return to this principle -- if those afflictions await us for a time and times, the half time will follow afterwards.

    Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation[#01471], [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

    Calvins commentary:

    The angel no longer relates future occurrences specially, but proclaims God to be in general the guardian of his Church, so as to preserve it wonderfully amidst many difficulties and dreadful commotion's, as well as in the profound darkness of disaster and death. This is the meaning of this sentence. This verse consists of two parts: the first relates to that most wretched period which should be full of various and almost numberless calamities; and the second assures us of God's never-failing protection and preservation of his Church by his own innate power. In this second part the promise is restricted to the elect, and thus a third clause may be distinguished, but it is only an addition to the second just mentioned. At the close of the verse, the angel presents us with a definition of the Church, as many professed to be God's people who were not really so. He says, Michael, the prince of the people, should stand up. Then he states the reason, The calamities of that period should be such as were never witnessed from the beginning of the world. As he addresses Daniel, he says, sons of thy people; for he was one of the sons of Abraham, and the nation from which Daniel sprang was in that sense "his." From this it follows that the calamities of which he will by and bye treat, belong to the true Church, and not to the profane nations. The singular aid of Michael would not have been needed, unless the Church had been oppressed with the most disastrous distresses. We perceive, then, the angel's meaning to be according to my explanation. The Church should be subject to most numerous and grievous calamities until the advent of Christ, but yet it should feel God's propitious disposition, ensuring its own safety under his aid and protection. By Michael many agree in understanding Christ as the head of the Church. But if it seems better to understand Michael as the archangel, this sense will prove suitable, for under Christ as the head, angels are the guardians of the Church. Whichever be the true meaning, God was the preserver of his Church by the hand of his only-begotten Son, and because the angels are under the government of Christ, he might entrust this duty to Michael. That foul hypocrite, Servetus, has dared to appropriate this passage to himself; for he has inscribed it as a frontispiece on his horrible comments, because he was called Michael! We observe what diabolic fury has seized him, as he dared to claim as his own what is here said of the singular aid afforded by Christ; to his Church. He was a man of the most impure feelings, as we have already sufficiently made known. But this was a proof of his impudence and sacrilegious madness -- to adorn himself with this epithet of Christ without, blushing, and. to elevate himself into Christ's place, by boasting himself to be Michael, the guardian of the Church, and the mighty prince of the people! This fact is well known, for I have the book at hand should any one distrust my word.
    PRAYER.
    Grant, Almighty God, since we are placed in similar distresses to those of which thou dost wish to warn us by thy angel, as well as thine ancient people, that thy light may shine upon us by means of thy only-begotten Son. May we feel ourselves always in safety under his invincible power. May we dwell securely under his shadow, and contend earnestly and boldly unto the end, against Satan and all his impious crew. And when all our warfare is over, may we arrive at last at that blessed rest where the fruit of our victory awaits us, in the same Christ our Lord. -- Amen.
    Lecture Sixty-Five.
    The twelfth chapter commenced, as we stated in yesterday's Lecture, with the angel's prediction as to the future state of the Church after the manifestation of Christ It was to be subject to many miseries, and hence this passage would soothe the sorrow of Daniel, and of all the pious, as he still promises safety to the Church through the help of God. Daniel therefore represented Michael as the guardian of the Church, and God had enjoined this duty upon Christ, as we learn from the 10th chapter of John, (John 10:28, 29.) As we stated yesterday, Michael may mean an angel; but I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people. He is called the mighty prince, because he naturally opposed the unconquered fortitude of God to those dangers to which the angel represents the Church to be subject. We well know the very slight causes for which terror often seizes our minds, and when we begin to tremble, nothing can calm our tumult and agitation. The angel then in treating of very grievous contests, and of the imminent danger of the Church, calls Michael the mighty prince. As if he had said, Michael should be the guardian and protector of the elect people, he should exercise immense power, and he alone without the slightest doubt should be sufficient for their protection. Christ confirms the same assertion, as we just; now saw, in the 10th chapter of John. He says all his elect were given him by his father, and none of them should perish, because his father was greater than all; no one, says he, shall pluck my sheep out of my hand. My father, who gave them me, is greater than all; meaning, God possesses infinite power, and displays it for the safety of those whom he has chosen before the creation of the world, and he has committed it to me, or has deposited it in my hands. We now perceive the reason of this epithet, which designates Michael as the great prince. For in consequence of the magnitude of the contest, we ought to enjoy the offer of insuperable strength, to enable us to attain tranquillity in the midst of the greatest commotion's. It was in no degree superfluous for the angel to predict such great calamities as impending over the Church, and in the present day the, same expressions are most useful to us. We perceive then how the Jews imagined a state of happiness under Christ, and the same error was adopted by the Apostles, who, when ,Christ discoursed on the destruction of the temple and the; city, thought the end of the world was at hand, and this they connected with their own glory and triumph. (Matthew 24:3.) The Prophet then is here instructed by the angel how God should direct the course of his Church when he should manifest to them his only-begotten Son. Still the severity of distress awaited all the pious; as if he had said, The time of your triumph is not yet arrived; you must still continue your warfare, which will prove both laborious and harassing. The condition of the new people is here compared with that of the ancient one, who suffered many perils and afflictions at God's hands. The angel therefore says, even although the faithful suffered very severely under the law and the prophets, yet a more oppressive season was at hand, during which God would treat his Church far more strictly than before, and submit it to far more excruciating trials. This is the meaning of the passage, a season full of afflictions should arise, such as the nations had never seen since they began to exist. This may refer to the creation of the world, and if we refer it to the people themselves, the exposition will prove correct; for although the Church had in former periods been wretched, yet after the appearance of Christ, it should suffer far more calamities than before. We remember the language of the Psalmist: The impious have often opposed me from my youth; they have drawn the plough across my back. (Psalm 129:1-3.) Through all ages then God subjected his Church to really evils and disasters. But a comparison is here instituted between two different states of the Church, and the angel shews how after Christ's appearance it should be far from either quietness or happiness. As it should be oppressed with heavier afflictions, it is not surprising that the fathers should wish us to be conformed to the image of his only-begotten Son. (Romans 8:29.) Since the period of Christ's resurrection, even if a more harassing warfare awaits us, we ought to bear it with great equanimity, because the glory of heaven is placed before our eyes far more clearly than it was before theirs.
    At length he adds, At that time thy people shall be preserved. By this expression the angel points out to us the great importance of the protection of Michael: He promises certain salvation to his elect people, as if he had said, although the Church should be exposed to the greatest dangers, yet with respect to God himself, it should always be safe and victorious in all contests, because Michael should be superior to every enemy. The angel then, in thus exhorting the faithful to bear their cross, shews how free they should be from all doubt as to the event, and the absolute certainty of their victory. Although at first sight this prophecy might inspire us with fear and dismay, yet this comfort ought to be sufficient for us: "We shall be conquerors amidst fire and sword, and amidst many deaths we are sure of life." As perfect safety is here set before us, we ought to feel secure, and to enter with alacrity into every engagement. We are in truth obliged to fight, but Christ has conquered for us, as he says himself, Trust in me, I have overcome the world. (John 16:33.) But the angel restricts what he had said generally by way of correction. Many professed to belong to the people of God, and every one naturally sprung from the stock of Israel boasted of being the, offspring of divine seed. As all wished promiscuously to belong to God's people, the angel restricts his expression by a limiting phrase, all people, says he, who were found written in the book. This clause does not mean all Israel after "the flesh," (Romans 9:6-8,) but such as God esteems to be real Israelites according to gratuitous election alone. He here distinguishes between the carnal and spiritual children of Abraham, between the outward Church and that inward and true community which the Almighty approves. Upon what then does the difference depend between those who boast of being Abraham's children, while they are rejected by God, and those who are really and truly his sons? On the mere grace and favor of God. He declares his election when he regenerates his elect by his Holy Spirit, and thus inscribes them with a certain mark, while they prove the reality of this sonship by the whole course of their lives, and confirm their own adoption. Meanwhile we are compelled to go to the fountain at once; God alone by his gratuitous election distinguishes the outward Church, which has nothing but. the title, from the true Church, which can never either perish or fall away. Thus we observe in how many passages of Scripture hypocrites are rejected in the midst of their swelling pride, as they have nothing in common with the sons of God but the external symbols of profession.
    We ought to notice this restriction, which assures us of the utter uselessness of outward pomp, and of the unprofitable nature of even a high station in the outward Church, unless we are truly among God's people. This is expressed fully in Psalm 15 and 24, while Psalm 73 confirms the same sentiments. How good is God to Israel, especially to the upright in heart! In these passages of the Psalms the cause is not stated to be the secret election of God, but the outward testimony of the conduct; and this although inferior in degree, is not contrary to the first cause which produces it. This has its proper place, but God's election is always superior. The word book refers to that eternal counsel of God, whereby he elected us and adopted us as his sons before the foundation of the world, as we read in the first chapter of Ephesians, (Ephesians 1:4.) In the same sense Ezekiel inveighs against the false prophets who deceived the people of Israel, (Ezekiel 8:9.) My hand, says God, shall be upon those prophets who deceive my people: they shall not therefore be in the secret assembly of my people, nor shall they be found in the roll of the house of Israel. The word signifying to write is used here, -- they shall not be written in the enrollment of thehouse of Israel. The word book is here used in the same sense and yet we need not adopt the gross idea, that the Almighty has any need of a book. His book is that eternal counsel which predestinates us to himself, and elects us to the hope of eternal salvation. We now understand the full sense of this instruction, as the Church shall remain in safety amidst many deaths, and even in the last stage of despair it shall escape through the mercy and help of God. We must also remember this definition of a church, because many boast of being God's sons, who are complete strangers to him. This leads us to consider the subject of election, as our salvation flows from that fountain. Our calling, which is his outward testimony to it, follows that gratuitous adoption which is hidden within himself; and thus God when regenerating us by his Spirit, inscribes upon us his marks and signs, whence he is able to acknowledge us as his real children."


    The "holy place" would today not be something carnal or earthly , that was the reason the temple was needs be destroyed. Man had utterly desolated it with their vain imaginations. By God's determinate counsel man had filled the cup of wrath fitted for destruction and when the time came to be as purpose , He destroyed it with an utter desolation. For God's chosen people the holy place is to be with Him in eternal life in an eternal fellowship with the Triune God. The "holy place" is a spiritual fellowship with the Lord that all the saints await in anticipation. Thus for God;s chosen to live is for Christ and to die is gain.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    We should also notice the epithet which designates the pious. They are called a people knowing their God. The people may be supposed to mean the vulgar, but this is forced. It may also be simply opposed to the profane Gentiles; but I think there is here an implied contrast between the true and genuine sons of Abraham, and the false Israelites, who boasted themselves to be members of the Church when they had nothing but the empty title. For in the prophets as in the writings of Moses, the name "people" is often used in a favorable sense for that elect nation which God had adopted as peculiarly his own. All the Israelites who were descendants of Abraham after the flesh, used to boast with much vanity in their being the elect people, and thus the word was ever on their lips.But as the Jews were too strongly attached to their present condition, and therefore paid little attention to the prophecies which foretold the abolition of it, Christ, as if endeavoring to gain their ear, bids them read attentively that passage, where they would learn that what appeared to them difficult to be believed was plainly declared by the Prophets. 10 Abomination means profanation; for this word denotes uncleanness, 11 which corrupts or overturns the pure worship of God. It is called desolation, because it drew along with it the destruction of the temple and of the government; as he had formerly said, (Daniel 9:27,) that the pollution introduced by Antiochus was, as it were, the standard of temporary desolation; for such I conceive to be the meaning of the wing, or, "spreading out."
    Hi Rk. The house of Judah and Israel were seperate, so I don't know if he is distinquishing between them [though the jews were those that practiced Pagan Judaism as they do today].

    I used to read through Calvin over a year ago and mainly his translation of the Hebrew language which he appeared to be quite proficient. He also battled against the Rabbis/jews and their "Forced" interpretation LOL.

    I am currently working and translating/harmonizing 2 thess 2 to fit in with Daniel and revelation using just Scripture and Word study.

    Do you see this as the AOD event in Daniel and the Olivet Discourse on first century Jerusalem or this event still future or presently ongoing through the ages or all of these LOL?.

    Do you feel it might the Man of Sin/Lawlessnes that is the abomination in some ways? Anyway to open up a topic on 2 thess 2 or has one been started? Thanks.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming[#3952] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord/Christ is just at hand/present; 3 let no man deceive[#1818] you in any wise: for [it will not be,] except the falling away[#646 Acts 21:21 "Forsake Moses"] come[#2064] first, and the man of Sin[#266 3 times Reve 18] be revealed, the son of perdition[#684 Rev 17:8,11], 4 he that opposeth and exalteth himself on all that is called God or that is devoted; so that he sitteth[#2523 Reve 3 and 20]into the temple of God, approving himself forth as God.

    Daniel 11:31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily [sacrifices,] and place [there] the abomination of desolation.


    bdelugma (Strong's 946) occurs 6 times in 6 verses:[3 times in revelation]

    Mark 13:14 " So when you see the 'abomination[#946] of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    Revelation 17:5 And on her forehead a name [was] written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS[#946] OF THE EARTH.
    Last edited by InChristAlways; 09-09-2005 at 06:30 PM.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    Hi Rk. The house of Judah and Israel were seperate, so I don't know if he is distinquishing between them [though the jews were those that practiced Pagan Judaism as they do today].
    No. Calvin shows the difference between the elect in Christ, the chosen people, and the Jews who had a form of godliness, but lacked the power thereof.

    I used to read through Calvin over a year ago and mainly his translation of the Hebrew language which he appeared to be quite proficient. He also battled against the Rabbis/jews and their "Forced" interpretation LOL.
    Calvin in his commentaries is not naive in taking the Jews history as the truth. That shows itself out in the book of Daniel among others. He also called upon other cultural histories that were relevant to the time in his exegetical work of commenting of the Word of God.


    I am currently working and translating/harmonizing 2 thess 2 to fit in with Daniel and revelation using just Scripture and Word study.

    Do you see this as the AOD event in Daniel and the Olivet Discourse on first century Jerusalem or this event still future or presently ongoing through the ages or all of these LOL?.
    The cup of wrath is being filled , just as it was in other events throughout history ( the deluge, the captivity ... et al) and the Lord will send desolation as His determinate counsel has set forth. The vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction.


    Do you feel it might the Man of Sin/Lawlessnes that is the abomination in some ways? Anyway to open up a topic on 2 thess 2 or has one been started? Thanks.
    Yes , or the antichrist. As throughout history these vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction are fullfilling God's purposes, and as they served a purpose in earlier history, so shall they again. These are the beginning of sorrows and will take place, nothing wavering. In them we see that Christ's return edges ever closer. No creature knows when Christ will return, but we are given signs to know that He is and that we stop the mouth of the scoffers who whines " where is the promise of His coming"
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Daniel 11:31 "And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily [sacrifices,] and place [there] the abomination of desolation.

    bdelugma (Strong's 946) occurs 6 times in 6 verses:[3 times in revelation]

    Mark 13:14 " So when you see the 'abomination[#946] of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    2 thess 2:3 let no man deceive[#1818] you in any wise: for [it will not be,] except the falling away[#646 Acts 21:21 "Forsake Moses"] come[#2064] first, and the man of Sin[#266 3 times Reve 18] be revealed, the son of perdition[#684 Rev 17:8,11], 4 he that opposeth and exalteth himself on all that is called God or that is devoted; so that he sitteth[#2523 Reve 3 and 20]into the temple of God, approving himself forth as God.

    Revelation 17:5 And on her forehead a name [was] written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS[#946] OF THE EARTH.

    I am currently working and translating/harmonizing 2 thess 2 to fit in with Daniel and revelation using just Scripture and Word study.
    Do you see this as the AOD event in Daniel and the Olivet Discourse on first century Jerusalem or this event still future or presently ongoing through the ages or all of these LOL?.
    Alos, do you feel it might the Man of Sin/Lawlessnes that is the abomination in some ways? Anyway to open up a topic on 2 thess 2 or has one been started? Thanks.
    Yes , or the antichrist. As throughout history these vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction are fullfilling God's purposes, and as they served a purpose in earlier history, so shall they again. These are the beginning of sorrows and will take place, nothing wavering. In them we see that Christ's return edges ever closer. No creature knows when Christ will return, but we are given signs to know that He is and that we stopthe mouth of the scoffers who whines " where is the promise of His coming"
    Hi RK. What do you think about this passage in Jeremiah 17 where it says "JUDAH" burns in His Anger forever. I thought this "SIN" might be the future Crucifixion of our Lord?
    Jeremiah17:1 "The SIN of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron;........ For you have kindled a FIRE in My anger [which] shall burn FOREVER."
    1 Corinthians 1:22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
    Concerning "wrath" on the vessels,
    there are different words used for "anger/wrath" in the NT I found interesting. #2372 is used for the bowls of "Wrath" of God, while a different word is used for "wrath" in chapt 11 and 6 #3709. Note also the "kings of the "earth"". Pretty fascinating.

    Reve 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [coming] out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, [which] go out to the kings of the LAND/COUNTRY[#1093] and ofthe whole EARTH/REGION[#3625], to gather them to the battle of that Great Day of God Almighty.

    reve 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the HEAVEN receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place 15 And the kings of theLand[#1093], the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the Face of Him who sits on the throne and from the WRATH[#3709] of the Lamb! 17 "For the Great Day of His WRATH[#3709]has come, and who is able to stand?"

    Reve 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your WRATH[#3709] has come, And the time ofthe dead, that they should be judged,

    Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go ye, and pour out the seven bowls of the WRATH[#2372] of God into the earth.
    Last edited by InChristAlways; 09-09-2005 at 11:03 PM.
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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    Hi RK. What do you think about this passage in Jeremiah 17 where it says "JUDAH" burns in His Anger forever. I thought this "SIN" might be the future Crucifixion of our Lord? Concerning "wrath" on the vessels,
    ,
    Calvins commentary:

    Here, as it is a concise mode of speaking, there seems to be some obscurity; but as to the subject handled, the meaning of the Prophet is evident, that they would be dismissed from their inheritance, and as it were from their own bowels. Hence he says, You shall be dismissed from your inheritance; that is, though ye think yourselves to be beyond the reach of danger, because as yet the city remains safe, and ye continue in it; yet ye shall perish, as they say, living and seeing. There shall then be a dismissal from the inheritance even as to thee; that is, "Though the Lord should delay the time and suffer you to remain, yet ye shall be like the dead, for God will destroy you, though he may leave you a pining life." It seems an emphatical expression when the Prophet says that there would be at length a dismissal even as to herself: he intimates, that though some of the people would remain alive, they would yet be given up to exile and dispersion. And it was a condition worse than death for the Jews to have their lives continued and to be scattered among their enemies.
    And he says, From the inheritance which I gave to thee; and he says this that they might not expostulate with him, that their own was taken away from them. "How has the land," he says, "become your inheritance? even because ye have obtained it through my bounty. And now, since ye are so ungrateful, why should I be blamed for taking away what I had given you? or what wrong is done to you? and what can ye object to me? for it has always been my heritage, though for a time I granted it to you. Had ye been thankful to me it would have been yours perpetually; but now when I deprive you of it, this you must ascribe to your own fault."
    For the same purpose he adds, I will make thee to serve thine enemies: and this was much more grievous than to serve their neighbors by whom they were not hated. But he shews here how dreadful would be their calamity, they being constrained to serve their enemies. He adds, In a land which thou knowest not. This is a repetition of what has been said before, and it requires no remark. He in the last place confirms what he had said of their wickedness; Burn, he says, shall fire in my nostril: but Pa, aph, may be taken for God's countenance, though it often means anger. As however he says, "Ye have kindled a fire," it seems better to render it here, In my face. Further, by the word I never, he intimates that God would be implacable to the Jews, for they had so deserved.1
    PRAYER
    Grant, Almighty God, that as thou kindly invitest us every day to repentance, and shewest thyself ready to be reconciled, -- O grant that we may not through our perverseness reject so inestimable a favor, but submit ourselves to thee, and become so displeased with our vices as to be touched with a true and sincere concern for religion, and to labor through the whole course of our life for nothing else but to render ourselves and our duties approved by thee, and thus to glorify thy name, so that we may become at last partakers of that celestial and eternal glory which thine only-begotten Son has attained for us. -- Amen.
    1 The whole of this passage, from the first to the end of the fourth verse, is wanting in the Septuagint and Arabic, but is found in the other versions and the Targum. The many emendations of Houbigant and Horsley are quite unwarrantable; the first makes his mostly from the Syriac; and the second from various readings, and those of no value, except in one or two instances, as "their" instead of "your altars" in the first verse, countenanced by very many MSS.; the other nine emendations have, for the most part, nothing of any weight in their favor. The transpositions of Houbigant are quite irreconcilable with any thing like errors incidentally committed by scribes. The same objection does not lie against the emendations of Horsley; but that ten mistakes should occur in the space of four verses is not credible; nor are most of the emendations at all necessary.
    The received text is no doubt materially correct, there being no different readings of any weight or suitable, except the one noticed above. The Vulgate, the Syriac, and Targum, differ from one another as much as they do from the Hebrew. They indeed all agree materially as to the beginning of the third verse, in regarding "the mountain" and "the field" as places where the people worshipped idols; and the Vulgate and the Syriac connect the words with the former verse; and this, I believe, is what ought to be done. Then the passage will read as follows: --
    1. The sin of Judah is written by a pen of iron, By the point of adamant it is graven, On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of their altars:
    2. As a memorial to their children Are their altars and their idols, Near the green tree, on the high hills, On the mountains, in the field. --
    3. Thy substance, all thy treasures For a plunder will I give, Thy high places also for sin in all thy borders;
    4. And thou shalt be removed, even for thyself, From thine inheritance which I gave thee; And I will make thee to serve thine enemies In a land which thou knowest not; For a fire have ye kindled in mine anger, Perpetually shall it burn.
    According to the frequent manner of the prophets, the last line in the first verse is connected with the first line, and the third with the second. The sin of Judah was "written" on "the horns of the altars;" it was "graven" on "the tablet of their heart." The services at the altars were visible; the impressions within were seen only by God. They left their altars and their idols to their children. The genitive case in Hebrew may often be rendered by a dative, as here, "A memorial to their children." All emendations as to the beginning of the third verse are unsatisfactory: it will bear the rendering above; "for thyself," that is, for thine own fault. -- Ed.


    I do not know where you get the sin of Judah to be the crucifixion of Christ with respect to the time of Jeremiah and the nation of Judah.Maybe you could clarify your point. Rather it seems clear that Judah as a nation was to suffer the wrath of God because of her turning away from the Lord and worshipping idol gods and going after their own vain imaginations rather then serving the Lord aright. For this sin Judah would be lead into captivity. The prophet Jeremiah was sent to preach this judgment, call them to repent and serve the Lord.
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    I do not know where you get the sin of Judah to be the crucifixion of Christ with respect to the time of Jeremiah and the nation of Judah.Maybe you could clarify your point. Rather it seems clear that Judah as a nation was to suffer the wrath of God because of her turning away from the Lord and worshipping idol gods and going after their own vain imaginations rather then serving the Lord aright. For this sin Judah would be lead into captivity. The prophet Jeremiah was sent to preach this judgment, call them to repent and serve the Lord.
    Hi RK. Just as Moses was sent to deliver the Hebrews from Bondage in Egypt, so was Jesus sent to release OC Israel from the Bondage of the LAW/Flesh. Types and shadows of the Coming of the Crucifixion and Resurrecton of our Dear Lord Jesus. Just as Egypt suffered the Wraths, so did the jews, Twice.


    The jews of today[as did the OC jew in Jesus's days] fail to see any Day of the Lord/Time of the End prophecies against them, the First Born Church of the Flesh because they are yet Carnal but a remnant Elect will always be around..

    The rulers of Jerusalem were the house of JUDAH/"JUDAS", the Sceptre of Israel. That is no longer the case after the CROSS as Jesus is now the Sceptre of Judah[genesis 49]
    Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, "Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:[of the OC church of the FLESH]

    Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
    Zeph 12 And it shall come to pass, at that time, that I will search through Jerusalem, with lamps,--and will punish the men who are thickened upon their lees, who are saying in their heart, Yahweh, will not give blessing, neither will he bring calamity. 13 Therefore shall their goods become a booty, and their houses, a desolation,--and they shall build houses, but not inhabit them, and plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof. 14 Near is the great day of Yahweh, near, and very speedy,--The noise of the day of Yahweh, a strong man--there!--bitterly crying out! 15A day of indignation,--that day! day of danger and distress, day of rush, and of crash, day of obscurity, and deep gloom, day of cloud, and thick darkness;

    Reve 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"


    Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."
    Last edited by InChristAlways; 09-10-2005 at 11:44 AM.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    Hi RK. Just as Moses was sent to deliver the Hebrews from Bondage in Egypt, so was Jesus sent to release OC Israel from the Bondage of the LAW/Flesh. Types and shadows of the Coming of the Crucifixion and Resurrecton of our Dear Lord Jesus. Just as Egypt suffered the Wraths, so did the jews, Twice.

    The jews of today[as did the OC jew in Jesus's days] fail to see any Day of the Lord/Time of the End prophecies against them, the First Born Church of the Flesh because they are yet Carnal but a remnant Elect will always be around..

    The rulers of Jerusalem were the house of JUDAH/"JUDAS", the Sceptre of Israel. That is no longer the case after the CROSS as Jesus is now the Sceptre of Judah
    I think that a carnal, earthly kingdom reign of Christ was sought by the Jews outwardly, whereas God's chosen elect looked for a spiritual kingdom built without hands whose builder and Maker is God. This proved to be a stumbling block for the Jews and the Judiasers of Christ's day. A relevant chapter regarding the wrath that would come upon those Judiasers who reveled in an earthly kindgom is Matthew 23. In particular Christ's words here:

    "29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

    30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
    36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    InChristAlways is on a distinguished road InChristAlways's Avatar
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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by ray kikkert
    I think that a carnal, earthly kingdom reign of Christ was sought by the Jews outwardly, whereas God's chosen elect looked for a spiritual kingdom built without hands whose builder and Maker is God. This proved to be a stumbling block for the Jews and the Judiasers of Christ's day. A relevant chapter regarding the wrath that would come upon those Judiasers who reveled in an earthly kindgom is Matthew 23. In particular Christ's words here:

    "29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
    Hi rk. The word "heneforth" is interesting, because they still were "seeing" Him up to the Crucifixion and is a quote from both psalms and Isaiah. Like you said, it is spiritual and Divinely symbolic.
    Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass [That] whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance[#04422], As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
    I really love the way you look at the Scriptures brother and I really appreciate the dialogue.

    Chapt 11 is still difficult to translate/interpret, as I feel it has to be "symbolically" during the Preaching of Christ leading up to "man of sin/Lawlessness, AOD and consummation of chapter 12, Delivernce of Daniel's people/Jacob's sons of the Flesh and why it is difficult, at least for me.
    Even chapt 9 was problematic until I realized it is a spiritual city being built.[King Cyrus of Persia, a gentile, was led to build an earthly city of the "Flesh".]Christ came to build a spiritual City above like you said. This is still going on as the spiritual City above is built up by the Pillars of His temple, US.

    I figure all of this will take about 7, 777 years to work on .
    Matthew 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,

    Matthew 4:17 From that time began Jesus/Word to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
    Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand/consider, [That] from the going forth of the Word/command To /return back/turn backto/ and build/build up "Jerusalem" Until annointed the prince/ruler[Gog/Man of Sin?], [There shall be] seven weeks/7's and sixty-two weeks/7's; The street/broad plaza shall be built/built up returned again, and the gold/diligently/sharp threshing, Even in troublesome/anguishing/straight times.
    Last edited by InChristAlways; 09-10-2005 at 02:23 PM.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    Hi rk.
    Chapt 11 is still difficult to translate/interpret, as I feel it has to be "symbolically" during the Preaching of Christ leading up to "man of sin/Lawlessness, AOD and consummation of chapter 12, Delivernce of Daniel's people/Jacob's sons of the Flesh and why it is difficult, at least for me.
    Even chapt 9 was problematic until I realized it is a spiritual city being built.[King Cyrus of Persia, a gentile, was led to build an earthly city of the "Flesh".]Christ came to build a spiritual City above like you said. This is still going on as the spiritual City above is built up by the Pillars of His temple, US.

    I figure all of this will take about 7, 777 years to work on .
    Many have predicted a time yet the people of the Lord earnestly pray "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth , as it is in heaven", and "Come Lord Jesus, come quickly"
    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    Hi rk.
    Matthew 4:17 From that time began Jesus/Word to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

    Quote:
    Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand/consider, [That] from the going forth of the Word/command To /return back/turn backto/ and build/build up "Jerusalem" Until annointed the prince/ruler[Gog/Man of Sin?], [There shall be] seven weeks/7's and sixty-two weeks/7's; The street/broad plaza shall be built/built up returned again, and the gold/diligently/sharp threshing, Even in troublesome/anguishing/straight times.

    Chapt 11 is still difficult to translate/interpret, as I feel it has to be "symbolically" during the Preaching of Christ leading up to "man of sin/Lawlessness, AOD and consummation of chapter 12, Delivernce of Daniel's people/Jacob's sons of the Flesh and why it is difficult, at least for me.
    Even chapt 9 was problematic until I realized it is a spiritual city being built.[King Cyrus of Persia, a gentile, was led to build an earthly city of the "Flesh".]Christ came to build a spiritual City above like you said. This is still going on as the spiritual City above is built up by the Pillars of His temple, US.

    I figure all of this will take about 7, 777 years to work on .
    Quote Originally Posted by ray kikkert
    Many have predicted a time yet the people of the Lord earnestly pray "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth , as it is in heaven", and "Come Lord Jesus, come quickly"
    Hi rk. I meant that is how many years it will take ME to comprehend the "mysteries" of the Bible. Imagine the Apostles still had no idea about the mysteries of the kingdom until Paul came along.

    The OC JEWS[God's firstborn "church of the Flesh"] were still awaiting on an "earthly" Kingdom. If we are in Christ and Him in us, are we not "symbolically" in the "kingdom" now? I am just studying and reading from the 66 books of Scriptures wehave now and nothing outside of it as I really want to harmonize revelation and Daniel eventually. Ths is my "retirement hobby" so to speak. Blessings.Acts
    1:6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
    For example, why only a "third" of mankind here?
    Revelation 9:15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
    Colossians 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    Colossians 4:3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains,

    Reve 10:7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
    Last edited by InChristAlways; 09-10-2005 at 04:10 PM.
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    InChristAlways is on a distinguished road InChristAlways's Avatar
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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Chapt 11 is still difficult to translate/interpret, as I feel it has to be "symbolically" during the Preaching of Christ leading up to "man of sin/Lawlessness, AOD and consummation of chapter 12, Deliverence of Daniel's people/Jacob's sons of the Flesh and why it is difficult, at least for me.
    Even chapt 9 was problematic until I realized it is a spiritual city being built.[King Cyrus of Persia, a gentile, was led to build an earthly city of the "Flesh".]Christ came to build a spiritual City above like you said. This is still going on as the spiritual City above is built up by the Pillars of His temple, US.
    Originally Posted by ray kikkert: I think that a carnal, earthly kingdom reign of Christ was sought by the Jews outwardly, whereas God's chosen elect looked for a spiritual kingdom built without hands whose builder and Maker is God. This proved to be a stumbling block for the Jews and the Judiasers of Christ's day. A relevant chapter regarding the wrath that would come upon those Judiasers who reveled in an earthly kindgom is Matthew 23. In particular Christ's words here:
    Many have predicted a time yet the people of the Lord earnestly pray "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth , as it is in heaven", and "Come Lord Jesus, come quickly"
    Hi rk. I agree and I am not in the "predicting" crowd and since Israel is still awaiting on their "own messia" I figured I would look at the Bible through "jewish" eyes and the help of the Holy Spirit.
    I see 2 types of Jerusalems in the Bible. A physical[Arabia Gal:4] and spiritual[Jerusalem above Gal:4]

    The jews and most "dispensationalists/messianics" only see the "physcal" one and they believe Ezekiel's temple is going to be set up on earth in the future, though I do not know if that is before the "1000yrs" or after it LOL.

    I find that extremely "unbiblical" in my own view. Anyway, here is what Daniel comes out to condensed and why Chapt 11 is such an important and "difficult" chapter concerning a "great war/host". Blessings.

    Here it shows Dani praying for his People Israel:
    Dan 9:20 Now while I [was] speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my People Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God,
    Daniel 11:35 and, of Them who make Wise, Some shall be Brought Low, to Refine Them, and to Purify and Make White, up to the Time of the End,--for yet is it for an Appointed Time
    .
    Daniel 12:1 And At That Time shall Michael Stand Up, the Great Prince who standeth for the Children of thy People; and there shall be a Time of Trouble, such as never was since thereWas A Nation even to That Same Time; and at That Time thy People shall be Delivered, every one that shall be found Written in the Book.
    This is a difficult verse as these have actually "Overcome" and been "resurrected", and that doesn't happen until the "last trump" according to our brother Paul?
    Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads
    .[these have "Overcome" the "Beast" and written in the "Book"?]
    Last edited by InChristAlways; 09-16-2005 at 02:13 PM.
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    ray kikkert is on a distinguished road ray kikkert's Avatar
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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    Quote Originally Posted by InChristAlways
    Anyway, here is what Daniel comes out to condensed and why Chapt 11 is such an important and "difficult" chapter concerning a "great war/host". Blessings.

    Here it shows Dani praying for his People Israel:


    Dan 9:20 Now while I [was] speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my People Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God,
    Calvin comments :

    As to the translation, some take it as I do; others say "flying swiftly," implying fatigue and alacrity. Some derive the word for "flying" from Pwe, gnof, which signifies to fly, and they join it with its own participle, which is common Hebrew; others again think it derived from Pey, yegnef; signifying to fatigue, and then explain it metaphorically as flying hastily. 4
    Here Daniel begins to shew us that his prayers were by no means useless, nor yet without their fruit, as Gabriel was sent to elevate his mind with confidence, and to lighten his grief by consolation. He next sets him forth as a minister of the grace of God to the whole Church, to inspire the faithful with the hope of a speedy return to their country, and to encourage them to bear their afflictions until God should open a way for their return. Next, as to ourselves, we need not wonder at God's refusing at times an answer to our prayers, because those who seem to pray far better than the rest scarcely possess a hundredth part of the zeal and fervor required. On comparing our method of prayer with this vehemence of the Prophet, surely we are in truth very far behind him; and it is by no means surprising, if, while the difference is so great, the success should be so dissimilar. And yet we may be assured that our prayers will never be in vain, if we follow the holy Prophet at even a long interval. If the limited amount of our faith hinders our prayers from emulating the Prophet's zeal, yet God will nevertheless listen to them, so long as they are founded in faith and penitence. Daniel says, therefore, While I was as yet speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel. First of all, we must notice how the Holy Spirit here purposely dictated to the Prophet, how God's grace would be prepared for and extended to all the wretched who fly to it and implore it. The Prophet, therefore, shews why we are so destitute of help, for if pain occasions so much groaning, yet we never look up to God, from whom consolation is always to be sought in all evils. He thus exhorts us to the habit of prayer by saying his requests were heard. He does not bring forward any singular example, but, as I have already said, he pronounces generally that the prayers of those who seek God as a deliverer will never be either vain or unfruitful. I have shewn how our supplications do not always meet with either the same or equal attention, since our torpor requires God to differ in the help which he supplies. But in this way the Prophet teaches us how those who possess true faith and repentance, however slight, will never offer up their prayers to God in vain.
    He next adds what is necessary to conciliate God's favor, namely, that men should anticipate God's judgment by condemning themselves. So he asserts, He confessed his sin and that of his people. He does not speak here of one kind of sin, but under the word ajx, cheta, he comprehends all kinds of wickedness; as if he had said, when I was confessing myself as steeped in sin and drowned in iniquity, I confessed the same on behalf of my people. We must notice also the phrase, the sin of my people Israel. He might have omitted this noun, but he wished to testify before God to the Church being guilty and without the slightest hope of absolution, unless God, whom they had so deservedly offended, was graciously pleased to reconcile them to himself. But the first clause is more worthy of notice, where Daniel relates the confession of his own sins before God. We know what Ezekiel says, or rather the Spirit speaking through his mouth. (Ezekiel 14:14.) For God names the three most perfect characters which had then existed in the world, and includes Daniel among them, although he was then living. Although Daniel was an example of angelic justice, and is celebrated by so remarkable an honor, yet, if even he were before me, and were to entreat me for this state, I would not listen to him, but I would free him only on account of his own righteousness. As, therefore, God so extols his own Prophet, and raises him on high as if he were beyond all the pollution and vices of the world, where shall we find a man upon earth who can boast himself free from every stain and failing? Let the most perfect characters be brought before us -- what a difference between them and Daniel! But even he confesses himself a sinner before God, and utterly renounces his own righteousness, and openly bears witness to his only hope of salvation being placed in the mere mercy of God. Hence Augustine with much wisdom often cites this passage against the followers of Pelagius and Celestius. We are well aware with what specious pretenses these heretics obscured God's grace, when they argued that God's sons ought not always to remain in prison, but to reach the goal. The doctrine indeed is passable enough, that the sons of God ought to be free from all fault, but where is such integrity really found? Augustine, therefore, with the greatest propriety, always replied to those triflers by shewing that no one ever existed so just in this world as not to need God's mercy. For had there been such a character, surely the Lord, who alone is a fitting judge, could have found him. But he asserts his servant Daniel to be among the most perfect, if three only are taken from the beginning of the world. But as Daniel casts himself into the flock of sinners, not through any feigned pretense or humility, but when uttering the fullness of his mind before God, who shall now claim for himself greater sanctity than this? When, therefore, I confess my sins before the face of my God. Here surely there is no fiction, whence it follows that those who pretend to this imaginary perfection are demons in human shape, as Castalio and other cynics, or rather dogs like him.
    We must therefore cling to this principle: no man, even if semi-angelic, can approach God, unless he conciliates his favor by sincere and ingenuous confession of his sins, as in reality a criminal before God. This, then, is our righteousness, to confess ourselves guilty in order that God may gratuitously absolve us. These observations, too, respecting the Israelites concern us also, as we observe from the direction which Christ has given us to say, Forgive us our trespasses. (Matthew 6:12; Luke 11:4.) For whom did Christ wish to use this petition? Surely all his disciples. If any one thinks that he has no need of this form of prayer, and this confession of sin, let him depart from the school of Christ, and enter into a herd of swine.
    He now adds, Upon the mountain of the sanctuary of my God. Here the Prophet suggests another reason for his being heard, namely, his anxiety for the common welfare and safety of the Church. For whenever any one studies his own private interests, and is careless of his neighbor's advantage, he is unworthy to obtain anything before God. If, therefore, we desire our prayers to be pleasing to God, and to produce useful fruit, let us learn to unite the whole body of the Church with us, and not only to regard what is expedient for ourselves, but what will tend to the common welfare of all the elect people. While, therefore, says he, I was yet speaking, and in the midst of my prayer. It appears that Daniel prayed not only with his affections, but broke forth into some outward utterance. It is quite true that this word is often restricted to mental utterance; for even when a person does not use his tongue, he may be said to speak when he only thinks mentally within himself. But since Daniel said, When I was yet speaking in my prayer, he seems to have broken forth into some verbal utterance; for although the saints do not intend to pronounce anything orally, yet zeal seizes upon them, and words at times escape them. There is another reason also for this: we are naturally slow, and then the tongue aids the thoughts. For these reasons Daniel was enabled not only to conceive his prayers silently and mentally, but to utter them verbally and orally.


    Daniel 11:35 and, of Them who make Wise, Some shall be Brought Low, to Refine Them, and to Purify and Make White, up to the Time of the End,--for yet is it for an Appointed Time
    Calvin comments:

    The angel pursues the same sentiment as before shewing us how the children of God, in their eagerness to defend the cause of piety, should be subject to many grievous persecutions. Some of the learned shall fall; meaning, that calamity shall not be for a single moment only; for those who earnestly desired to defend the true worship of God should perish by the sword, and by fire, and by other methods of destruction, and their successors, too, should suffer the same calamities. The phrase, the learned should fall, implies the perishing of the very flower of the Church. There will always be much refuse among a people, and the greater part of it flies off and revolts when their religion requires of them the sacrifice of their life. A few remain, here called intelligent, who, as we stated yesterday, are not wise after the flesh. Making provision for the flesh, implies taking care of themselves, and of their own interests, running no risks, and avoiding all troubles; while those are called intelligent, who, forgetful of their own lives, offer themselves in sacrifice to God. They do not hesitate to incur universal hatred, and are prepared to meet death with fortitude. The angel, therefore, predicts the perishing of the flower of the Church. For who could have expected the name of God to have existed upon earth when all His sincere worshippers were thus murdered with impunity? The severity of the despotism of Antiochus is notorious, no one dared to utter a word, all the sacred books were burnt, and he thought the worship of God entirely abolished. Women with their children were promiscuously seized for burning, and the satellites of this tyrant did not spare the mothers with infants hanging on their breasts. (1 Maccabees 1.) During the progress of such atrocious cruelty, who would not have thought the whole seed of God to have been extinct? But the angel here shews the true result to have been different, namely, that the sons of God should be purged, cleansed, and whitened. He signifies that all events should not prove so destructive, but should rather promote their salvation. This passage unfolds to us the nature of true prudence in the sight of God; for we ought to be prepared for death, rather than be turned aside from the free and ingenuous profession of the heavenly doctrine, and from the true worship of God. For this necessity is imposed on the sons of God -- to fall either by the sword or by fire, and to suffer the spoiling of their goods, and banishment from their homes. The angel points out from the result how persecutions which seem to issue in the destruction of the Church, are yet profitable and salutary to the sons of God, as This is the method of their being purified, and cleansed, and whitened. But we must always remember how some defiling dregs, which require clearing out, remain in the elect, nay, even among the holy Martyrs. The angel does not here treat of hypocrites, or of ordinary believers, but of whatever is most conspicuous and most perfect in the Church, and yet asserts their need of purification. None, therefore, he concludes, possess such sanctity and purity as to prevent the remnant of some pollution which requires to be removed. Hence it becomes necessary for them to pass through the furnace, and to be purified like gold and silver. This is extended to all God's martyrs.
    This reminds us of the great folly of the Papists, in imagining the merits of saints to be transferred to us, as if they had more than they required for themselves. Indulgences, as they call them, depend upon this error, according to the following reasoning, -- had Peter lived to the ordinary period of human life, he would have proved faithful to the end, and then would have merited the crown of the heavenly kingdom; but when he went beyond this, and poured out his blood in martyrdom, some merits were superabundant; these ought not to be lost, and hence the blood of Peter and Paul profit us at this day for the remission of sins. This is the Papal theology, and these miserable sophists are not ashamed of these gross blasphemies, while they vomit forth such foul sacrilege. But the angel's teaching is far different; -- the martyrs themselves are benefited by meeting death for their adherence to the truth, because God purges, and cleanses, and refines, and whitens them. The angel would not have said this except some admixture of dross still defiled the purity of the saints. But this doctrine ought to be more than enough to animate us to undergo all dangers, when we see ourselves stained and polluted with hidden dross; besides this, we ought certainly to determine that death would be profitable in this sense, as God will then purge us from those vices by which we are both infected and defiled. Whence the value of the repetition here; the angel does not simply say to purge them, but adds, to cleanse and whiten them. Whatever holiness may shine forth in the best of men, yet many stains and much defilement he concealed within them; and thus in consequence of their many failings, persecution was always useful to them.
    The angel mitigates whatever might seem exceedingly bitter, by saying, until the time of an end, meaning, a fixed and definite time. These words imply the merciful character of God, in not urging his people beyond their strength, as Paul also states his faithfulness in granting them a happy issue out of their trials, and in not pressing' us beyond the measure of that strength and fortitude which he has conferred upon us. (1 Corinthians 10:13.) The angel predicts an end to these evils, and confirms this opinion by saying, even to a determined time. In the last clause he signified the temporary nature of the persecutions of which he had spoken; for they should not cease directly, nor yet for two or three years. By the words, as yet even to a time determined, he urges the sons of God to prepare themselves for new contests, as they should not reach the goal for the space of a year. But if God wished to humble them for three, or ten, or a hundred years, they should not despond, but wait for the time divinely predetermined, without depending on their own will. This is the substance of the instruction conveyed.

    Daniel 12:1 And At That Time shall Michael Stand Up, the Great Prince who standeth for the Children of thy People; and there shall be a Time of Trouble, such as never was since thereWas A Nation even to That Same Time; and at That Time thy People shall be Delivered, every one that shall be found Written in the Book.
    Calvin comments :

    The angel no longer relates future occurrences specially, but proclaims God to be in general the guardian of his Church, so as to preserve it wonderfully amidst many difficulties and dreadful commotion's, as well as in the profound darkness of disaster and death. This is the meaning of this sentence. This verse consists of two parts: the first relates to that most wretched period which should be full of various and almost numberless calamities; and the second assures us of God's never-failing protection and preservation of his Church by his own innate power. In this second part the promise is restricted to the elect, and thus a third clause may be distinguished, but it is only an addition to the second just mentioned. At the close of the verse, the angel presents us with a definition of the Church, as many professed to be God's people who were not really so. He says, Michael, the prince of the people, should stand up. Then he states the reason, The calamities of that period should be such as were never witnessed from the beginning of the world. As he addresses Daniel, he says, sons of thy people; for he was one of the sons of Abraham, and the nation from which Daniel sprang was in that sense "his." From this it follows that the calamities of which he will by and bye treat, belong to the true Church, and not to the profane nations. The singular aid of Michael would not have been needed, unless the Church had been oppressed with the most disastrous distresses. We perceive, then, the angel's meaning to be according to my explanation. The Church should be subject to most numerous and grievous calamities until the advent of Christ, but yet it should feel God's propitious disposition, ensuring its own safety under his aid and protection. By Michael many agree in understanding Christ as the head of the Church. But if it seems better to understand Michael as the archangel, this sense will prove suitable, for under Christ as the head, angels are the guardians of the Church. Whichever be the true meaning, God was the preserver of his Church by the hand of his only-begotten Son, and because the angels are under the government of Christ, he might entrust this duty to Michael. That foul hypocrite, Servetus, has dared to appropriate this passage to himself; for he has inscribed it as a frontispiece on his horrible comments, because he was called Michael! We observe what diabolic fury has seized him, as he dared to claim as his own what is here said of the singular aid afforded by Christ; to his Church. He was a man of the most impure feelings, as we have already sufficiently made known. But this was a proof of his impudence and sacrilegious madness -- to adorn himself with this epithet of Christ without, blushing, and. to elevate himself into Christ's place, by boasting himself to be Michael, the guardian of the Church, and the mighty prince of the people! This fact is well known, for I have the book at hand should any one distrust my word.


    In looking at the comments of Calvin with respect to the verses you had alluded to .... one main point seems to be evident. That the elect know their sinfulness and wretchness. They know they are vile and need the Lord to restore them. They look to Him and Him alone for salvation. It matters little whether one has the faith of Daniel or not.... all God;s elect will indeed truthfully repent and confess the sins they have committed and pray earnestly for deliverance. This confession and repentance is a gift given by God to His chosen elect. In no wise can the reprobate earnestly and honestly bring forth such repentance. All have fallen short of the glory of God , there is none that doeth good, no not one.

    The prayer of Daniel will be the prayer of all God's chosen people. Not only this , but the Lord's people also know that tribulation awaits them in this world, persecution is their lot. The Lord refines His chosen and causes then to persevere and uses tribulation to do so. None are able to stand in their own strength, none , not even Daniel has the ability to endure and satisfy the wrath of God by their faithfulness. It is only by Christ that the elect are restored to God as He has purposed.

    We must wait upon God, as Daniel waited upon the Lord to redeem Isreal from captivity. As Daniel yearned for it so we yearn for Christs return. As God's people we await Christs return. We as Daniel know it shall come to pass and will in God's good time and pleasure. We as Daniel are given assurance . The Lord our Christ has told us and His Word is without fail. THis is the comfort of the elect child of God , that in body and soul, both in life and death, we belong not to ourselves , but to our faithful Saviour Jesus Christ.

    This is a difficult verse as these have actually "Overcome" and been "resurrected", and that doesn't happen until the "last trump" according to our brother Paul? .[these have "Overcome" the "Beast" and written in the "Book"?

    Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads
    John Gill comments:

    Ver. 1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb,.... The Alexandrian copy, and some others, read "the Lamb"; the same that had been seen before in, the midst of the throne, Re 5:6; and all the Oriental versions have the same article also; the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, for mention is made of his Father in a following clause; the King of Zion, where he is seen standing, and the Redeemer of his people, who are at large described; it is the same Lamb who is so often spoken of in this book before: in the two preceding chapters an account is given of the state of the church, as oppressed under Rome Pagan, and Rome Papal, and here of its more glorious and victorious condition, with Christ at the head of it; in the last chapter antichrist is described, with his followers and worshippers, and as exercising tyranny and cruelty upon the saints, and here Christ and his followers are represented in vision, and some hints given of the fall of Babylon, and of the wrath of God upon the worshippers of the beast, and of the happiness of those who belong to the Lamb: and of him it is here said, that he

    stood on the Mount Zion; by which is meant not heaven, but the church on earth; why that is called Mount Zion, See Gill on "Heb 12:22"; here Christ the Lamb stood, as presiding over it, being King of Zion, or the church; where he stood and fed, or ruled, in the name of the Lord, and in the majesty of his God; and where he appeared in the defence of his church and people, oppressed by antichrist; for he is Michael that standeth for the children of his people, and who stands with courage, and in the greatness of his strength, and is invincible; nor does he stand here alone:

    and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand; the same with those in Re 7:3, though all the world wondered after the beast, and all that dwelt upon the earth worshipped him, yet there was a number preserved that did not bow the knee to him; a remnant according to the election of grace, who were called out of the world, and brought to Zion, and were on the side of the Lamb, and abode by him, and cleaved unto him:

    having his Father's name written in their foreheads; not baptism, administered in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, as some think; nor eternal election, as others, though as their names were written in the Lamb's book of life, so this was manifest to themselves and others, as if his name and his Father's had been written in their foreheads; but rather adoption, the new name of a child of God, they having the spirit of adoption, whereby they cried, "Abba", Father, and being openly and manifestly the children of God, by faith in Christ Jesus; unless it should be thought there is an allusion to the inscription in the mitre on the forehead of the high priest, "holiness to the Lord", and so be expressive of that visible holiness which will be on the saints in the spiritual reign of Christ, which this vision respects; see Zec 14:20; or to the frontlets between the eyes of the people of Israel, to put them in mind of the law, and their obedience to it, De 6:8; and so may here denote the engagements of those saints in the service of God; though perhaps no more is intended than their open and hearty profession of their faith, and that they were not ashamed of appearing in the cause of God and truth; nor of Christ and his words, his Gospel and ordinances: the Alexandrian copy, the Complutensian edition, the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions, read, "having his name, (the Lamb's,) and his Father's name written in their foreheads"; and the Ethiopic version adds, "and of his Holy Spirit". Mr. Daubuz thinks this vision refers to the times of Constantine, and to the Christians then, and particularly the council of Nice, and as contemporary with that in Re 7:9.




    I can only comment that the elect have the assurance that they will indeed be resurrected and have overcome. That "overcoming" is spoken well of in Romans 8 by the apostle. The same apostle comments of the "resurrection" in 1st Corinth. 15.

    Are you wrestling with the idea that the elect are resurrected or overcome "before " the "last trump"?

    " And if Christ be not risen , then is our preaching vain, and your faith also is vain" 1 Corinth. 15:14

    Greetings and salutations, el rana

    21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

    Proverbs chapter 19

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    InChristAlways is on a distinguished road InChristAlways's Avatar
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    Re: Help Translating Daniels 70 weeks

    1:6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

    Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads
    I can only comment that the elect have the assurance that they will indeed be resurrected and have overcome. That "overcoming" is spoken well of in Romans 8 by the apostle. The same apostle comments of the "resurrection" in 1st Corinth. 15.

    Are you wrestling with the idea that the elect are resurrected or overcome "before " the "last trump"?

    " And if Christ be not risen , then is our preaching vain, and your faith also is vain" 1 Corinth. 15:14
    Hi rk and thanks for responding. I read through Calvin's commentaries a few years back and used his expertise in the Hebrew especially [and loved his "battling" the Rabbis on scripture, no easy task for a Christian]. I am currently working on the church of Thyatira and Jezebel. Pretty fascinating study on the books of Kings and Elijah.

    Want to start a topic on the Trumpets in the Bible? In Chapt 9, it refers to "The Trumpet", instead of an "angel sounding" but he doesn't actually sound it . The 7th angel "sounds" at the resurrection of the "2 witneses", which according to Matt 24 happens immediately after the Great Tribulation with the Judgement Wraths coming right after it. [many PP's view the GT as already past, which view I don't really understand].

    Reve 9
    :13 saying to the sixth angel who had the Trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates..........

    I thought it was curious that trump is "singular" here for 3 angels? Just a lot of word study to keep me busy during retirement brother.

    Revelation 8:13 And I looked, and I heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"


    Exodus 20:18
    Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw [it,] they trembled and stood afar off.

    Joel 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand:

    Zechariah 9:14
    Then the LORD will be seen over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And go with whirlwinds from the south



    Last edited by InChristAlways; 09-30-2005 at 09:15 PM.
    "There are Signs of a new upsurge of interest in the Study of Scriptures: a New Readiness to Test Traditions, Search the Scriptures and Rightly Divide the Word "I am the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE and the RESURRECTION and no man can come to the FATHER but by ME"

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