The Identity of holy city Revelation 11

[InChristAlways]

Looking at both Isaiah 52 and Daniel 9, one appears to represent a "spiritual" city and one a "physical" city [as in other places of the OT]

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake! Put on your strength, O Zion; Put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city! For the uncircumcised and the unclean Shall no longer come to you.

Daniel 9:24 " Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Holy of Holy.

I am trying to identify the "holy city" mentioned in chapt 11 of revelation. It does indeed appear to be Jerusalem, but symbolically it appears to be the "City of Saints", as both this "city" and the saints are being shown "trampled on and overcome" by the "beast/Nations" for 42 months.
The camp of the saints in chapt 20 shows the "beloved City", and it appears to "symbolically" represent the New Jerusalem/holy city in chapt 11 to me, as the old "physical Jerusalem/temple" will never be holy again in God's eyes or any physical building for that matter [ only the True worshippers of Jesus and the Father are considered "Holy"].
I realize all of those in Jesus today are spiritually in the New Jerusalem above, because we are "born from her" according to Paul.

Galatians 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

It almost appears the New Jerusalem was/is/will be "symbolically" on earth? Pretty fascinating. Any views on the "holy city" in reve 11? Blessings

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles/Nations. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

Reve 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who Dwell in Heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Revelation 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the Saints and the Beloved City. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the Great City, the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the Holy City, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

[InChristAlways]

It was too late to add this to the post below, but I noticed this while reading through revelation today.

If this is translated right, it shows an angel with the 7 bowls still FILLED with the plagues and the New Jerusalem coming down.

So it must be coming down before the plagues are poured out? I never noticed that before, and that would make sense concerning the holy-beloved city being trampled. This is of course a vision John is seeing and he actually sees this twice.It appears a lot of the visions/scenes are shown from both heaven and earth and makes it a little more challenging in studying it.


Reve 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God.


Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them [and be] their God.

[Robert R. Higby]

The fact that Revelation refers to the holy city in this manner is evidence (for me) that earthly Jerusalem is not in view; it is only a figure of the gospel reality of Christ's people redeemed by grace. This is the very reason why I don't see proof in Rev. 11 of a pre-70 A.D. authorship of the book--the 'city trampled upon' is not earthly Jerusalem!

[InChristAlways]

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake! Put on your strength, O Zion; Put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city! For the uncircumcised and the unclean Shall no longer come to you.

Daniel 9:24 " Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Holy of Holy.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles/Nations. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

Reve 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, andthose who Dwell in Heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

The fact that Revelation refers to the holy city in this manner is evidence (for me) that earthly Jerusalem is not in view; it is only a figure of the gospel reality of Christ's people redeemed by grace. This is the very reason why I don't see proof in Rev. 11 of a pre-70 A.D. authorship of the book--the 'city trampled upon' is not earthly Jerusalem!

Hi BT. I agree!!
I never really dwelled on when it was written, visioned or if John the Apostle was the one that visioned it.
If you read through Paul's epistles, he appeared to know that something was going to happen soon, but in either case Daniel 11/12 would be after the time of Christ not before, correct?

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago -- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows -- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

The temple Jesus spoke about was still standing [the rebuilt Solomon's temple], so unless a "third" temple is built as futurists dispys say, I am looking at prophecies as the rebuilt temple of the 70 weeks for now. I just don't see a third temple in the future having any "prophetic" meaning. What do you think?

Mark 13:14 " So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Dani 11:31 Armsshall stand on His part, andThey shall Profane the Sanctuary, even the Fortress, and shall Take Away the Continual [Burnt-Offering], and theyshall Set Up the Abomination That Maketh Desolate. 32 He shall Seduce with Flattery Those who Violate the Covenant; but the People who Know Their God shall Stand Firm and Take Action.

Notice the "court" in revelation 11. It is the same description as the "Palace of the High Priest" in the Gospel's.And these were the ones that had Jesus put to death[as Prophecied!!] and persecuted the Saints including Paul and the Apostles

Revelation 11:1 And there was given unto me a reed, like unto a staff, saying--Rise, and measure the Sanctuary of God, and the altar, and them who are doing homage therein; 2 and, the court[#833] that is outside the Sanctuary,

Matt 26:3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 58 But Peter followed Him at a distance to the high priest's courtyard. And he went in and sat with the servants to see the end. 59 Now the chief priests, the elders, and all the council sought false testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, 69 Now Peter sat outside in the courtyard. And a servant girl came to him, saying, "You also were with Jesus of Galilee."

[InChristAlways]

There is one question I have concerning revelation and I can't seem to find any place that discusses it.

In chapter 11, are these actual physical bodies the world will see going up to heaven just as Jesus did in acts? And will they be returning back to earth the same way and be seen with Christ when He returns?

Another words, are we going to see this event happen right before our very eyes before the wraths are poured out? Has anyone seen views on this, as I am really perplexed on this one passage in revelation, and need some help with it. Thanks and blessings.

Reve 11:Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." 9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This [same] Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

[wildboar]

You can't find any place that discussess it? Have you tried any of the many commentaries on Revelation?

As Beale notes, the portrayal of resurrection is taken directly from Ezek. 37:5, 10 LXX which is a prophecy of God's restoration of Israel out of the Babylonian exile. The two witnesses represent the witness of the church throughout the world. There will be a period of time when it appears that the church has been entirely defeated and completely gone. But then, out of nowhere the church reappears. Hoeksema on the other hand believes that this is a literal resurrection, and so a post-tribulation rapture of believers shortly before the final judgment.

[InChristAlways]

You can't find any place that discussess it? Have you tried any of the many commentaries on Revelation?

As Beale notes, the portrayal of resurrection is taken directly from Ezek. 37:5, 10 LXX which is a prophecy of God's restoration of Israel out of the Babylonian exile. The two witnesses represent the witness of the church throughout the world. There will be a period of time when it appears that the church has been entirely defeated and completely gone. But then, out of nowhere the church reappears. Hoeksema on the other hand believes that this is a literal resurrection, and so a post-tribulation rapture of believers shortly before the final judgment.

Hi WildBoar. Thanks. So some see it as symbolic/spiritual for Israel, and others see it as literal. What is your view? Remember, the judgements and wrath happen almost right after it I believe, correct?

Do you feel the ones the wraths are falling on have already been judged? Another words, is this a literal throne or symbolic throne? Thanks.

reve 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

[wildboar]

I am inclined to agree with Beale but see some possibility in Hoeksema's interpretation. This certainly a great judgment, but it is not the final judgment. Rev. 6:16 depicts the final judgment. God is a spirit and so he does not sit on a literal throne. We, on the other hands, are not just spirits trapped inside of some body.

[InChristAlways]

I am inclined to agree with Beale but see some possibility in Hoeksema's interpretation. This certainly a great judgment, but it is not the final judgment. Rev. 6:16 depicts the final judgment. God is a spirit and so he does not sit on a literal throne. We, on the other hands, are not just spirits trapped inside of some body.

Thanks WB. It is late now and I thank you for sharing time with me on this.
Revelation is a fascinating book, and other than the book of Ezekiel, I can't think of a more exciting Divine book in the world to study. Again, thanks brother. Blessings.

[Robert R. Higby]

The Holy City in Rev. 11 could easily represent not only the New Covenant people of God--everything associated with them that they hold dear (both spiritual and material). This harmonizes with the concept of the beautifully adorned bride equalling the city that God loves; it is God's people arrayed in Christ's righteousness and all redemptive blessings that follow believing the gospel.

I do not agree with the straight-line interpretation of these verses; i.e., that the death and resurrection of the 2 witnesses is a single event at the very end of the gospel age. Rather, it is history that re-capitulates throughout the New Covenant era (the triumph of the gospel in power, then the tragedy of the world's reactive hatred and apparent destruction of all that the gospel is, then the vindication of God's people and their gospel testimony before those that thought they had successfully destroyed both).

[InChristAlways]

The Holy City in Rev. 11 could easily represent not only the New Covenant people of God--everything associated with them that they hold dear (both spiritual and material). This harmonizes with the concept of the beautifully adorned bride equalling the city that God loves; it is God's people arrayed in Christ's righteousness and all redemptive blessings that follow believing the gospel.

I do not agree with the straight-line interpretation of these verses; i.e., that the death and resurrection of the 2 witnesses is a single event at the very end of the gospel age. Rather, it is history that re-capitulates throughout the New Covenant era (the triumph of the gospel in power, then the tragedy of the world's reactive hatred and apparent destruction of all that the gospel is, then the vindication of God's people and their gospel testimony before those that thought they had successfully destroyed both).

Hi BT. Very thoughtfull and enlightening post, and I agree in the sense that the gospel of Christ is eternal and since the earth abides "forever", each generation of new disciples in Christ continue to march on as "soldiers", and always with the power of God and of His Christ before us.

psalm 102:24 I said, "O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years [are] throughout all generations. 25 Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens [are] the work of Your hands. 26 They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. 27 But You [are] the same, And Your years will have no end. 28The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You."

Isaiah 34:4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as [fruit] falling from a fig tree.

reve 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

I tend to look at my own death as an end of an "age" and the beginning of a new one, I just really can't comprehend what that will be like as we are told we will live to the "ages of ages".
Christ is always shown having eyes like a "flame of fire" and it is this fire of the Word of God that destroys those outside of the camp of God's elect saints through the ages of ages.

Blessings.

Revelation 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth -- to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people --

This appears to be the camp of the saints and the fire that comes down from heaven is a 'baptism of fire', not a literal "firestorm" from heaven.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles/Nations. And they will tread the holy city[camp of the saints?] underfoot [for] forty-two months.


Revelation 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the Saints and the Beloved City. And fire[Word of God?] came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Reve 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

[InChristAlways]

I would like to add more to the "possible identity" of the Holy City in revelation chapt 11, by doing a "word study" on the word for "court" in revelation chapt 11, and please feel free to comment and add to this. [I am also working on a "translation of revelation" and looking up every word to see how it is used in the NT and the frequency of its use. [Maybe WildBoar can help me out or add to this ]

This is not to give any "preconceived view" of what revelation is representing, only word studies to help in understanding, not only revelation, but the Bible itself [which I also am still learning].

This is a word study on "The COURT" [#833] that is being cast out without, [the possible "Seat of Satan/Beast"? ] in reve chapter 11, and is the only time this particular Greek word is used Revelation.

It symbolizes a "Courthouse/Palace" of the High Priest in the Gospels [and the roman court], more specifically and often, it is used as the Court of the Hight Priest [ Caiaphas] who was the "Leader" of the Jewish Rulers in Jerusalem and one the biggest "enemies" of Jesus Christ while He was Preaching the "Good News" to the "lost sheep" of Israel.

The High Priest can even be substitued for the "pope" for those who feel the "catholic church" is in revelation, but it appears to me, in my "view" only, that it represents the "OC ADAM/CAIN/LAW/DEATH/SIN"as stated by our dear brother Paul in the epistles.

What I found interesting is that it is similar to the word used for "air", and I don't really know, at this time, how this affects the use of this word.

aule (Strong's 833)

occurs 12 times in 12 verses: 833 aule ow-lay' from the same as 109; a yard (as open to the wind); by implication, a mansion:--court, (sheep-)fold, hall, palace. 109 aer ah-ayr' from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):--air. Compare 5594.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given unto me a reed, like unto a staff, saying--Rise, and measure the Sanctuary of God, and the altar, and them who are doing homage therein; 2 and, the COURT/PALACE[ #833] that is outside the Sanctuary, cast out without, and do not measure it, because it hath been given unto the nations/gentiles, and, the Holy City[Camp of the Saints?], shall they tread under foot, forty and two months[Reve 13].

Matt 26:3 Then the chief priests , the scribes, and the elders[used in revelation "elders" #4245]] of the people assembled at the palace[#833 aulh]............ 57 And those who had laid hold of Jesus led [Him] away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. 58 But Peter followed Him at a distance to the high priest's courtyard[#833 aulhV] ------69 Now Peter sat outside in the courtyard[#833 aulh]. And a servant girl came to him, saying, "You also were with Jesus of Galilee."

Mark 14:54 But Peter followed Him at a distance, right into the courtyard[#833 aulhn] of the high priest. And he sat with the servants and warmed himself at the fire. ------ 66 And, Peter, being, below in the court[#833 aulh], there cometh one of the maid-servants of the High-priest;

#2533 Caiaphas ["as comely"] a high priest of the Jews appointed to that office by Valerius Gratus, governor of Judaea, after removal of Simon, son of Camith, A.D. 18, and was removed A.D. 36 by Vitellius, governor of Syria, who appointed Jonathan, son of Ananus (Annus, father-in-law of Caiaphas), his successor

Reve 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he openedhis mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His Name, His Tabernacle, and Those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to Make War with the saints and to Overcome them.

[InChristAlways]

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the "temple" of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles/Nations. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

Reve 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who Dwell in Heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the Saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Revelation 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the Saints and the Beloved City. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Hi again all. While reading through Joel again, I felt this might be the ones who are "inhabiting the holy city/camp of the saints" in chapt 11/20 [remant of Daniel's people "OC Israel/Law/Flesh".

The OT appears to be centered around OC Israel/Jerusalem so I base my studies mainly on the OC Adam/Flesh/Judah/Israel and NC Christ/Spirit/NT Israel/Jerusalem above.
I have always felt that revelation was a "symbolic battle" between the "Carnal Flesh and Spirit" as that is what our dear brother Paul emphasized in His epistles so much. Daniel 12 stresses "his people", not gentiles and that was interesting also.
I am just putting this up for interest, as my interest really is to understand the nature of God's words in the Bible. Blessing to all.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass [That]whoever calls on the Name of the LORD ["JESUS CHRIST"/LAMB] Shall be Saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be DELIVERENCE[#04422], As the LORD has said, Among the REMNANT whom the LORD calls[written in the Book?].

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the Sons of your People; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time Your People shall be DELIVERED[#04422], Every one who is found written in the book[of the Life of the Lamb]

Reve 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the Tribes of the Children of Israel [were] sealed:[ REMNANT of the Sons of Daniel's people/OC Israel/Flesh]

Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb[Lord Jesus Christ] standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

[InChristAlways]

Revelation 11:1 And was given to me a reed like to a rod/staff, and saying, `Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it; 2 and the Court that is without the sanctuary[OC "Tabernacle"] Cast Out Outside, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the city the holy they shall tread down forty-two months;

Has anyone else viewed the Altar of Burnt Offerings in the Outer Court of the OT as a possible type of "lake of fire" in revelation?
For example, this "Sacrifice" in Zeph, if it is a OT sacrifice, would be on a type of "Altar" correct? Coincidentally, only the Priest could burn the offerings on it and the court that is in revelation would contain both the Laver, the Altar of Burnt Offerings and the priest servicing it, but these are shown "Cast Out Outside. Any view on this? Thanks.

Zeph 1:7 Be SILENT in the presence of the Lord GOD; For the day of the LORD [is] at hand, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests. 8 "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.

Matt 23: 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 "and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? geennhV <1067> {OF GEHENNA}

Note the similarity of Leviticus 9 and revelation 20

Levi 9:23 And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of meeting, and came out and blessed the people. Then the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people, 24 and fire came out from before the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the fat on the altar. When all the people saw [it,] they shouted and fell on their faces.

Reve 20: 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Revelation 19:1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power [belong] to the Lord our God! 3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, "Amen! Alleluia!"

http://newjerusalemministriesboards....5949#post15949

[ray kikkert]

Has anyone else viewed the Altar of Burnt Offerings in the Outer Court of the OT as a possible type of "lake of fire" in revelation?
For example, this "Sacrifice" in Zeph, if it is a OT sacrifice, would be on a type of "Altar" correct? Coincidentally, only the Priest could burn the offerings on it and the court that is in revelation would contain both the Laver, the Altar of Burnt Offerings and the priest servicing it, but these are shown "Cast Out Outside. Any view on this? Thanks.

I do not believe there to be an altar in the outer court since the altar that is measured deals with Christ who being the perfect once and for only sacrifice for the sake of His elect dwells therein.

The court without is of no importance for the Lord to make known to us. Thus we can leave off any vain speculations in regards to its makeup.