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Thread: The meaning of "Born Again"

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    The meaning of "Born Again"

    I am certain that this topic has been discussed before, but I did a search and could not find a thread, so if it has and a moderator would like to post the link and lock this thread, no offense will be taken.

    Now, all that being said, a friend of mine and I have been in an ongoing dicussion as to the meaning of the first 8 verses of John 3.

    Jhn 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;Jhn 3:2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God {as} a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.Jhn 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Jhn 3:7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'Jhn 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."(NASB)

    The discussion has focused on the what Jesus is describing when he says, "born of water" (v.5)

    What do you feel Jesus is referencing when he says "born of water"?

    Is he referencing a physical birth because our bodies are primarily water?
    Is he referencing water baptism?
    Is he referencing repentance, because this was the key to John's baptism?

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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    Quote Originally Posted by ashamoun
    What do you feel Jesus is referencing when he says "born of water"?

    Is he referencing a physical birth because our bodies are primarily water?
    Is he referencing water baptism?
    Is he referencing repentance, because this was the key to John's baptism?
    The view espoused by Leon Morris in his NICNT commentary on John (he's following Calvin) is most convincing to me. He sees "born of water" to refer to being born of the spirit and references several scriptures including John 7:38-39:


    Jn 7:38-40, (KJV)
    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    Quote Originally Posted by ashamoun
    What do you feel Jesus is referencing when he says "born of water"?

    Is he referencing a physical birth because our bodies are primarily water?
    Is he referencing water baptism?
    Is he referencing repentance, because this was the key to John's baptism?
    Here is Gill on the subject...

    http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?vi...&createchaps=1
    except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are, twnv twlm, "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God. The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "the Holy Spirit", and so Nonnus; and who doubtless is intended: by "water", is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptized, as Simon Magus was, and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state; yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptized, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see Eze 36:25. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to, a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures: and if Nicodemus was an officer in the temple, that took care to provide water at the feasts, as Dr. Lightfoot thinks, and as it should seem Nicodemon ben Gorion was, by the story before related of him; See Gill on "Joh 3:1"; very pertinently does our Lord make mention of water, it being his own element: regeneration is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, as in 1Pe 1:3, and sometimes to the Son, 1Jo 2:29 and here to the Spirit, as in Tit 3:5, who convinces of sin, sanctifies, renews, works faith, and every other grace; begins and carries on the work of grace, unto perfection;
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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    Here is what Calvin wrote on the verse in question:

    5. Unless a man be born of water. This passage has been explained in various ways. Some have thought that the two parts of regeneration are distinctly pointed out, and that by the word Water is denoted the renunciation of the old man, while by the Spirit they have understood the new life. Others think that there is an implied contrast, as if Christ intended to contrast Water and Spirit, which are pure and liquid elements, with the earthly and gross nature of man. Thus they view the language as allegorical, and suppose Christ to have taught that we ought to lay aside the heavy and ponderous mass of the flesh, and to become like water and air, that we may move upwards, or, at least, may not be so much weighed down to the earth. But both opinions appear to me to be at variance with the meaning of Christ.

    Chrysostom, with whom the greater part of expounders agree, makes the word Water refer to baptism. The meaning would then be, that by baptism we enter into the kingdom of God, because in baptism we are regenerated by the Spirit of God. Hence arose the belief of the absolute necessity of baptism, in order to the hope of eternal life. But though we were to admit that Christ here speaks of baptism, yet we ought not to press his words so closely as to imagine that he confines salvation to the outward sign; but, on the contrary, he connects the Water with the Spirit, because under that visible symbol he attests and seals that newness of life which God alone produces in us by his Spirit. It is true that, by neglecting baptism, we are excluded from salvation; and in this sense I acknowledge that it is necessary; but it is absurd to speak of the hope of salvation as confined to the sign. So far as relates to this passage, I cannot bring myself to believe that Christ speaks of baptism; for it would have been inappropriate.

    We must always keep in remembrance the design of Christ, which we have already explained; namely, that he intended to exhort Nicodemus to newness of life, because he was not capable of receiving the Gospel, until he began to be a new man. It is, therefore, a simple statement, that we must be born again, in order that we may be the children of God, and that the Holy Spirit is the Author of this second birth. For while Nicodemus was dreaming of the regeneration (paliggenesi>a) or transmigration taught by Pythagoras, who imagined that souls, after the death of their bodies, passed into other bodies, 5 Christ, in order to cure him of this error, added, by way of explanation, that it is not in a natural way that men are born a second time, and that it is not necessary for them to be clothed with a new body, but that they are born when they are renewed in mind and heart by the grace of the Spirit.

    Accordingly, he employed the words Spirit and water to mean the same thing, and this ought not to be regarded as a harsh or forced interpretation; for it is a frequent and common way of speaking in Scripture, when the Spirit is mentioned, to add the word Water or Fire, expressing his power. We sometimes meet with the statement, that it is Christ who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost and with fire, (Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16,) where fire means nothing different from the Spirit, but only shows what is his efficacy in us. As to the word water being placed first, it is of little consequence; or rather, this mode of speaking flows more naturally than the other, because the metaphor is followed by a plain and direct statement, as if Christ had said that no man is a son of God until he has been renewed by water, and that this water is the Spirit who cleanseth us anew and who, by spreading his energy over us, imparts to us the rigor of the heavenly life, though by nature we are utterly dry. And most properly does Christ, in order to reprove Nicodemus for his ignorance, employ a form of expression which is common in Scripture; for Nicodemus ought at length to have acknowledged, that what Christ had said was taken from the ordinary doctrine of the Prophets.

    By water, therefore, is meant nothing more than the inward purification and invigoration which is produced by the Holy Spirit. Besides, it is not unusual to employ the word and instead of that is, when the latter clause is intended to explain the former. And the view which I have taken is supported by what follows; for when Christ immediately proceeds to assign the reason why we must be born again, without mentioning the water, he shows that the newness of life which he requires is produced by the Spirit alone; whence it follows, that water must not be separated from the Spirit.
    Last edited by Tobias Crisp; 07-22-2005 at 08:51 AM.
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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    I don't think that the reasoning would be that our bodies are mostly water. I'm not certain that was known at that time. Some commentators cite literature in which the term "water" is used for male semen and so refers to procreation. In that case it would be referring either to natural birth which must be followed by being born of the Spirit or spiritual seed.

    I think there's some interesting points made in favor of the above but I really don't see what the point would be in stating that we need to experience natural birth in order to enter the kingdom of God. Would it be a warning to all those people who aren't created by procreation?

    I think it better to take it the way that most of the older commentators did as referring to baptism. Not baptismal regeneration but the verse is putting a close relationship between the sign and the thing signified.

    John 1:26 John answered them, saying, "I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know.

    John 1:31 "I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water."

    Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Mark 1:8 "I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

    Luke 3:16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    Would it be possible that it could have anything to do with the verses that speak of 'living water'. I think Anthony mentioned that in a post also and I agree with that.

    John 4:10 "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him and he would have given thee living water"

    John 4:14 "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life"

    Jeremiah 2: 13 "For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water"

    It would seem that if it is baptism that is being spoken of we know it would have to be the one baptism..the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    I appreciate all of the responses.

    My position is that the being born of water is a physical birth. I saw that WB posted that wasn't known at the time, but it was Jesus who said this and I know we can all agree that Jesus knew this fact.

    The reason why I believe it is speaking of physical birth is because in v. 4 Nicodemus speaks of reentering his mothers womb to be born again, and Jesus responds in v.5 saying that you must be born of water and spirit to be born again. It seems to me that Jesus' reference to being born of water is in reference to Nicodemus' comment in v.4 of reentering his mothers womb.

    I think we can all agree that the true "born again" conversion is at regeneration and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The part that still does not make sense to me is how you equate being born of water with the water baptism. While water baptism is certainly something that all Christians should partake, is it a birth of any kind? In John 4, when Jesus speaks of living water, I believe that he is clearly talking spiritually. Is he doing the same here?

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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    I think it's important that we recognize the first birth as physical birth and the second birth as spiritual birth. I would say that I don't like the baptism view much to be honest with you.
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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    Ash:

    The term born again should have been translated "born from above". The "new birth" actually happens in eternity past (John chapter 1 entirely) and it is not in the moment one "gets saved" (to use colloquial churchianese). That's where everyone gets confused because of the word "again". I think that the spiritual birth is not something that happens "again" since it happens only once. It is also not a "second" birth as if following the "first" with the possibility of a third. That's also churchianese. In terms of experience it happens for one who is alive, thus lending the impression that it is something that is "second" to another, such as the natural birth.

    In terms of Baptism, I believe that the baptism of John, according to his own words, was to be suppressed and superseded by the Baptism with (or in) the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that the Holy Ghost would be "in you" and "within you". This makes me believe that there is such a thing as a "secondary" in-filling of the Holy Spirit which commonly is called Baptism with the Holy Spirit (or in the...) which has nothing to do with what the Pents have done with this concept.

    The Holy Ghost and Fire does not mean that you get the Holy Ghost and your enemies get the fire . It means that the Holy Ghost will come as the fulfillment of the promise of the Father (Joel 2) and the Fire is the element recognized by the Jews as God's approval of a Sacrifice (read the entire Old Testament and see the "fire" as the sign of God's approval over a sacrifice). Hence the tongues of Fire at Pentecost over not 12 stones from the nearest brook, but 120 LIVING STONES as an approval of Jesus ETERNAL sacrifice for us. What happened at Pentecost should be a celebration of our certainty that Christ's nature abides in us as He promised in the person of the Holy Spirit, and the Fire is that His sacrifice was acceptable unto God. (Someone ought to preach about this next Sunday...) (Can I have an Hallelujah?)

    I voiced my opinion about water baptism here many times before and don't intend to repeat myself. You can search and find that in the subject of baptism, perhaps I am the most revolutionary one (and may be Bob, Bill Twise).

    As to being born of water, I believe W.B. is correct. It is a reference to natural birth.

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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    Milt,

    You are right that it should be "from above". But it should not be "born", strictly speaking. "Born" is a poor rendering. But rather "generated" (Gr. gennaoo, not tiktoo cp. Matt. 1:21, nor apokueoo cp. Jam. 1:18) or "begotten". Thus "generated from above". Therefore it should also be "generated/begotten of water (as source)". In this case it is clearly seen that physical water-birth is not meant. The words "water and Spirit" in John 3:5 refers to one and the same thing, the Holy Spirit of God in His activity of cleansing-regenerating, cp. Titus 3:5. John 3:6 also corroborates this inasmuch as only the Spirit is referred to.

    There is no such thing in the Scriptures as "new birth" actually happening in eternity past.

    "Water baptism" is a thing that Christendom stubbornly practises, whether Romanist, Protestant, or Baptist etc. sects of Christendom. It belonged to the circumcision gospel (proclaimed by Peter et.al.) . But it has no part in Paul's uncircumcision gospel.


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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    Quote Originally Posted by Harald
    "Water baptism" is a thing that Christendom stubbornly practises, whether Romanist, Protestant, or Baptist etc. sects of Christendom. It belonged to the circumcision gospel (proclaimed by Peter et.al.) .
    I've heard there are dispensationalists that take this position. I personally don't see baptism as anything more than an outward testimony of the Spirit's regenerating work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harald
    There is no such thing in the Scriptures as "new birth" actually happening in eternity past.
    I agree. However, I believe that God sees all things from eternity, and in His mind, the elect were seen as regenerate and even glorified before the foundation of the world.
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    "Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity." - A complaint by German humanist Johann Cochlaeus.

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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    Quote Originally Posted by harald
    Milt,

    You are right that it should be "from above". But it should not be "born", strictly speaking. "Born" is a poor rendering. But rather "generated" (Gr. gennaoo, not tiktoo cp. Matt. 1:21, nor apokueoo cp. Jam. 1:18) or "begotten". Thus "generated from above". Therefore it should also be "generated/begotten of water (as source)". In this case it is clearly seen that physical water-birth is not meant. The words "water and Spirit" in John 3:5 refers to one and the same thing, the Holy Spirit of God in His activity of cleansing-regenerating, cp. Titus 3:5. John 3:6 also corroborates this inasmuch as only the Spirit is referred to.

    There is no such thing in the Scriptures as "new birth" actually happening in eternity past.

    "Water baptism" is a thing that Christendom stubbornly practises, whether Romanist, Protestant, or Baptist etc. sects of Christendom. It belonged to the circumcision gospel (proclaimed by Peter et.al.) . But it has no part in Paul's uncircumcision gospel.


    Harald
    You are correct in that.
    I remember when the Lord entered my life 2 yrs ago and reading the bible through the first time, I questioned in my heart whether or not I should be water baptized.

    It was when my wife and I visited a minister friend of my brother's in Miss 3 months later and while we were fishing in shallow water in the Gulf, the minister asked if I wanted to be baptized. I visioned Jesus and John in the Jordan and agreed, though afterwards I really felt no different and realized I had already been baptized through His Holy Spirit coming to me.

    It was kind of "cool" doing something Jesus did 2000yrs ago though.
    Last edited by InChristAlways; 07-23-2005 at 01:47 AM.
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    Re: The meaning of "Born Again"

    ICA,

    Myself has been "baptized" thrice, and I count them all but dung. First time was at age 3 months when I was sprinkled into the Lutheran state "church". Second time was a few months after conversion when I (in my ignorance) was immersed in a baptismal tank of a local Baptist assembly. Upon which I was officially joined to the membership. Third time was almost three years later, after having separated from those Baptists, when I was immersed in the salty waters of the Botnia Bay, by an american "Sovereign Grace Landmark Baptist" (as they fancily call themselves) "missionary". This third time was also in ignorance, back then I looked upon it as a *necessary* re-immersion. Through submitting to this immersion and affiliating myself with those Landmarkers I was plunged into tangible legal bondage. But it was not long before I knew I had to severe all ties to them. Now I know that water baptism is no part of Paul's gospel, and therefore look upon it as dung and folly in this dispensation of Paul's uncircumcision gospel. The second baptism I had neither afforded me any spiritual pleasure. Now afterwards I know why. As for my Lutheran sprinkling I knew even before conversion, as a New Ager, that it was but a falsehood.

    The propagation and practising of water baptism in this dispensation clearly militates against the "one baptism" in Eph. 4 (cp. 1Co. 12:13), which Paul maintained. Water baptism separates into anti-Christ factions (cp. all the sects and illegal "denominations" such as Mennonites, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, Baptists etc.). The same goes for officially recognized creeds and "confessions" of faith which men are expected to submit to. But dung and human traditions, not after Christ but after men.



    Harald

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    By Brandan Kraft in forum Old Miscellaneous Archive
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    Last Post: 11-03-2001, 03:39 PM

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