The "made sin" or "infused sinfulness" Heresy

[lionovjudah]

I am prepared at this point to say this following statement. 1. I know that Christ was separated from the blessings of the Father through the Spirit. 2. I know that Christ as to His being was never separated from the Father, that is, He never ceased to be God. 3. Christ never sinned and never committed a sin, on or off the cross.

Now, what I don't fully understand is if His human nature was separated from God. I ask this in the context of Paul saying He was made a curse and if that implies a separation.

I like what Tony Warren has to say on this. IT is long, but very good

ne of the more puzzling things for many Christians is the plaintive question that Christ uttered on the cross in His cry of, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Matthew 27:45-46

• "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
• And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

There are some critics who suggest that in these three hours of darkness, Christ had a moment of weakness where "as a human" He succumbed under the weight of His terrible suffering. Others surmise that Christ had lost all hope, and that His human soul was unable to fully understand why the father had abandoned Him. But none of this speculation has any sound support in the scriptures. They are all theories that are at odds with the Biblical facts. And this can be easily proven by a myriad of clear passages where Christ foretold His suffering. When we read "the whole" of scripture in context, not concentrating on a few select verses, we can see very quickly that Christ never faltered for one moment, and He knew perfectly well what He had to do and why He had to do it. He knew He had to suffer the wrath of God that He was forsaken and die for the elect. These things were not hid from Him. So these ideas that He was surprised make no sense, considering all that Christ Himself declared of His mission.

John 16:6-7

• "But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
• Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

Christ knew that He had to go to the cross to suffer the wrath of God, and if He didn't, the election would not be comforted of the Holy Spirit. It was not a secret to Him that man would be healed by His stripes, indeed it was this knowledge that brought Him to Jerusalem. The nature of the "required" atonement wasn't a mystery to Him, it was a mystery to the people of Israel. For they (much like the Premillennialists today) expected a political king, an earthly kingdom, and a physical rather than spiritual deliverance. But Christ knew exactly what the nature of the sacrifice was, and how the true deliverance of Israel would take place. It would take place by Him drinking the bitter dregs of the judgment in the cup of His fury, which we deserved.

John 18:11

• "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

It's a rhetorical question. Yes, it's a bitter cup that Christ knew that He had to drink for the sake of the elect. Even as the bitter vinegar that Christ drank signified, He "completed" or "finished" the task that He willingly went to the cross to accomplish.

John 19:30

• "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Indeed, He certainly knew the cup He had to drink to accomplish His task, and He willingly drank it. And you will note that when they offered Him that vinegar "before the time" of completion, He would not drink of it (Matthew 27:33-34). The reason that He would not drink at this time is because it was the beginning, and His work was not yet "finished." This is what His "receiving" the cup of Vinegar just before saying it is Finished signified. It was a sign of the completion of His work and the accomplishment of the cross.

So if this is all true, then how do we answer the objection of why Jesus prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me." And why did He cry, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" when He already knew perfectly well? The answer is that all these things were said and done of God for "man's benefit." He wasn't complaining as an eternal example of His own unusually weak (for God's people) fortitude or His delicate nature, or His frail humanity. He said these things as a reference key for us to unlock the words of the prophets and the psalms that spoke of these things. Christ is revealing to us by these comments that "He" was the God-Man prophesied to come as the Saviour of Israel. In other words, God is exhorting His people to search the scriptures and compare scripture with scripture. And therein we will "see" what these words He spoke signifies and pertains to.
Psalms 22:1

• ..My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

When Christ called out to God in this manner, clearly He was consciously quoting this Psalm as an illustration to all that would come after, that He was fulfilling this Old Testament prophecy. This is the key to understanding why the Lord would say this. Jesus Christ, as the living "Word of God" in the flesh, is the application of God's revealed will concerning the atonement for sin by the wrath of God poured out upon man. And His question in Psalms 22:1 of, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me," is answered in Psalms 22:3.

Psalms 22:3

• "But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel."

That is why God had forsaken Him. Because to a holy God, that sin is abhorrent to, this is a great offense. And as Christ hung on the cross, He was laden with our sins. So in Christ quoting this Psalm, He was revealing that it prophesied of Him and how He would atone for the sins of man against a holy God. These words make manifest the agony and suffering that Christ was under as He is intimately and personally identified with the judgment of God upon man for sin. To suppose that He was rebuking God by this comment, or complaining, or that He was unaware of the meaning of the words of that Psalm, is to completely ignore all His teachings on these subjects. He surely knew what these scriptures "actually" meant concerning His suffering.

John 5:36-39

• "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
• And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
• And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
• Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

The works were not completely finished until He died on the cross. For us to think that Christ was unable to understand fully His abandonment by God the Father as the sacrifice for us, is to completely convolute his entire ministry. For Christ knew and spoke of the work of the atonement, He knew He had to die for sins, He knew He had to suffer for the iniquity of many, and He knew that the Father had to administer that judgment. In short, He knew the cup was handed to Him of God, thus to say anything less makes a mockery of the doctrine of Christ.

Mark 8:31-33

• "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
• And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
• But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."

Since Peter had just confessed that Jesus was the Messiah (Mark 8:29) that was prophesied to come, it was incumbent upon Christ to take the opportunity to correct their conceptions of Him as an earthly king who would deliver them from literal subjection by the Romans. He explained to the Apostles the true nature of His Kingdom, purpose, suffering, atonement and resurrection.

Matthew 12:39-40

• "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
• For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

John 2:19

• "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

So those who say that Christ lacked the divine knowledge because He "emptied" Himself and was merely human, are wrong. His words are in no way meant to convey the idea that the Father, the first person of the Trinity, had left the Son in any sense except in judging sin. For God is three in one inseparable, immutable and omniscient. Christ knew perfectly God was with Him (He said so) and He knew perfectly well what He had to suffer, why He had to die, and why He would rise again. Of course He suffered in the flesh, and of course God was His help. This is the divine mystery of the trinity. But are we to suppose that Christ didn't understand what the scripture really meant in saying, "by His stripes we are healed?" Christ was the greatest teacher of law that man has ever seen, and yet some believe because He was fully human He didn't understand His true mission of death and resurrection. This is their conclusion because He speaks as a man would and cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" The fact is, Christ said these things that we would know that Old Testament scripture was being fulfilled in the man Christ. In fact, He often told us this "point blank." For example, just before He died on the cross we see a vivid illustration of this.

John 19:28-30

• "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
• Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
• When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Clearly, Christ did these things because He knew the plan, and He wanted us to know that He was the Saviour that was fulfilling scripture. It was not because He was weaker than most other mortal men were, this cry of thirst was part of the Messianic psalms being fulfilled.

Psalms 69:21-22

• "They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
• Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap."

This whole belief that Christ was physically weak because of his humanity and had no divine knowledge of what the cost was or what He was saying, is antithetical to the gospel message. Of course He understood this. Of course He understood His lot was to suffer. For this hour was He born.

John 10:17-18

• "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
• No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

He knew what was coming, and He knew what was required. And yet He went to the cross to accept the cup "willingly" because He was not a mere man like everyone else, He was a superior man who understood fully the bitter dregs of the cup He must drink. He was fully God and fully man, yet superior in all aspects in order that He might endure the wrath of God "for us."

Isaiah 53:4-6

• "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
• But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
• All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Of course He understood this prophecy. Indeed, it was for "this hour" that God became flesh to fulfill this prophecy.

1st Peter 2:24

• "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

He sacrificed Himself of His own free will knowing that is the only way that man could be made righteous. Isaiah 53:4 is fulfilled because Christ consciously put Himself in our place, bore our sins, and suffered the punishment for them that we deserved. So there is no need to minimize the inseparable nature of the Father with the Son, or trivialize the deity of Christ by implying He cried out to God because He didn't know what the extent of His suffering would be. We should not speculate or surmise that He didn't understand things, that scripture show He "quite obviously" did understand. Christ's cry wasn't because He was a man, or because He was dejected, or had a lack of faith and felt some failing of God. It was because He understood the Psalms perfectly, and thus He knew the ties the prophecy had to His suffering. He referenced it, not for Himself, but "for the benefit" of the faithful who would read it. These comments are guideposts, keys and bookmarks to the faithful, even as they are simultaneously a snare to the faith-less. As Christ they can be a precious stone to one, and a stone of stumbling to another. Christ was Himself, in the flesh, made sin for us. He was made a curse wherein God's wrath was called down upon Him "for our" sakes. i.e., we were under the curse of the law, thus in order to redeem us from that curse, God became flesh that He might take it upon himself, be forsaken "in our stead," a vivid illustration of God forsaking God, the supreme mystery of the gospel.

Galatians 3:13

• "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

This is the mystery of God forsaking God. And to try and separate God from the man Christ who hung on the cross, is like confessing that God was made flesh, but then abandoned it when needed most. Christ suffered as a divine-human, yet in the sense of payment for our sins, Christ was separated from God. Forsaken, He was literally suffering the pangs of hell for us, an atonement that is beyond our comprehension. He did not cry out over mere human suffering or despair. Would we really believe that the prophets of old and the martyrs who were mere men, have gone triumphantly to torture without crying out as Christ did? They went to the cross, to the stake, to be burned in fires, eaten by lions, every form of torment and punishment, and are we to believe that Christ couldn't do this without crying out as if He'd lost all hope? God forbid! Why then did God cry, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" The very question implies there truly was a forsaking in some sense. Christ spoke these words not because of His humanity as many suppose, but because God is illustrating that in essence, we were in the body of Christ (Romans 6:6-11). And it was "we" who deserved to be forsaken of God, and to suffer thus. Our Saviour God was taking that suffering as a substitute for us. i.e., He's "speaking on our behalf" as our stand in. So the answer to the rhetorical question of "why," is because He had the body of the iniquity of us all. He had become sin for us (2nd Corinthians 5:21). He was forsaken in the sense that God allowed Him to suffer and die upon the cross for the sins of man. Holy God could have stopped His wrath at any time, but then the elect would have been condemned with the rest of the world, and His promise to Abraham abrogated. God is faithful, so that could never be. So He had to forsake Him for the sake of the elect. Search the Messianic psalms, particularly chapter 22, and also consider the prophecy of Isaiah. Because Christ had the sin of all the elect laid upon Him. And that is why God had forsaken Him. His wasn't a cry of despair because He was a man, but of pointing out, "that the scripture might be fulfilled," that God had prophesied this. It is a verbal key that directs and unlocks other passages "when we" compare scripture with scripture. Just as the Apostle John directs us to this same Psalm when testifying of the death of Christ. He records:

John 19:23-24

• "Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
• They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did."

These things were done for a specific reason, and it was for our benefit. It was so that scripture could be fulfilled that spoke of Christ. This is the same key that is pointing us to the very same Messianic psalm chapter 22.

Psalms 22:18

• "They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture."

In Psalms 22 is revealed God's rejection of Christ because He stands in as representative for man as the second Adam (1st Corinthians 15:22,45) laden with our sins. Christ asserts that He has been forsaken and rejected by both God and man. Yet in the psalms we see the "faith of Christ" as He still trusts "His God," and continues His faithfulness. He is sure that in the end God will be His help and his faith will be justified. And Christ quotes these Psalms and other scriptures that we might search them out and consider them wisely.

Luke 24:44-46

• "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
• Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
• And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:"

From these scriptures we know that Christ was aware what He was getting into. But He uttered these phrases that the scriptures might be "seen" to be fulfilled. Thus the mystery is revealed. When our Lord said, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me," He was directing us to the magnificent Messianic truths of Psalms chapter 22. He said it that we might understand that He was forsaken for us. In His eternal love for the elect, Christ took upon Himself the judgment that we deserved for our sins. So that when the great darkness fell across Calvary for three hours, it illustrated the purpose of Christ in absorbing the darkness of Hell that we deserved in God forsaking us. The glory of these things are revealed through searching out the matter.

Proverbs 25:2

• "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

He who hath an ear, let him hear. So what comfort might be drawn from the question of, "My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?" Chiefly, that we are comforted in knowing that by faith Christ was forsaken of God, that we would never have to fear being forsaken. Because of His finished work, we know God will never leave or forsake us.

Hebrews 13:5

• "Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

He was forsaken for our sins, for our iniquities, for our transgressions. And because we know the answer to His plaintive question "why," we have full assurance of our completed redemption. Joyfully, our hearts may be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ (Colossians 2:2).

May the Lord, who is gracious above all, grant us wisdom and understanding in the knowledge of His blessed word. Amen!

[L-Today]

Some people are not interested nor are influenced by any amount of clear and unmistakable exposure of their heresies concerning the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. They'd rather cling on to their pastors' teachings, who, in turn cling on to some writers' and each other's erroneous views. Tragic but fascinating to watch this subborn loyalty to heresies because the Scriptures are being fulfilled in front of us.


Joe, Christ was a friend of elect sinners only because He knew their hearts. For stubborn rejecters of God He had different vocabulary throughout the Bible. He taught us to differentiate who is who by the fruits, which, of course, means all people's words and deeds.

Joe, WHY does Scripture warn us so seriously, starting with Satan's lies in Eden, continuing with Israel's coddling and loving their false prophets while hating and killing the true ones, then on to the whited sepulchres Pharisees, and finishing with the severest threatenings against false church full of false teachers and believers in lies in the Book of Revelation? What do we do with these warnings? Are they in the Scriptures for us to love and treat everybody the same indiscriminately? What do you think is the correct way of reacting to all the warnings against false prophets and their believers in the Bible? I am not saying that we should go around hating and bashing anybody. Far from it. But how do we apply all these many warnings? Also we get again sidetracked from the theme of this thread. If you are interested in this subject, maybe there are other threads for it?


While I disagree with Bob's views on the nature(s) of sin(s) - (threads elsewhere), his summary of what and why 'sinful christ' proponents believe in is excellent, and, hopefully, of use to the believers in this heresy too. May they repent, denounce this lie and believe in the saving Truth of the Righteous Jesus Christ.

I agree with Mike's understanding of the meaning of Jesus crying to His Father. Loving blessings were not lavishly bestowed on God's Son at the cursed tree. Our Redeemer's heel was being severely bruised for our sins. He was very sorely afflicted for our uniquities. God spared not His own Son for the forgiveness of our sins. Do we know what the outpour of God's wrath on His Innocent but treated AS IF a criminal Son means? None of us creatures can ever begin to grasp the AGONY our Lord had to go through paying the penalties which we the sinners fully and justly deserve! In comparison with His reign in heaven, the Holy and Spotless Lamb's shame and pain before the whole world ARE those of a worm, although to assert that He became a literal worm is a lie for the Bible says that people saw Jesus Christ on the cross and not a real worm. So ''forsaken'', I think as Mike does, is the cry of unimaginable and utterly extraordinary pain and shame our Innocent Savior had to go through. The rest of the Bible, the whole counsel of God, does not teach separation at any point between the Father and His Incarnate Son, nor should we build our own unbiblical elaborate structures on one word ''forsaken'' or ''made sin''. Had the Father really forsaken Jesus Chist (as someone mentioned before), into Whose hands did our Savior commend His spirit?

[lionovjudah]

Joe, Christ was a friend of elect sinners only because He knew their hearts. For stubborn rejecters of God He had different vocabulary throughout the Bible. He taught us to differentiate who is who by the fruits, which, of course, means all people's words and deeds.

But we are not Christ,we do not know who is elect. He never once said," I am saving you and loving you matthew/ Zacheaus even though the rest despise you because I chose you from the foundations of the world. " So your answer is not in line with Christs actions. I am not classifying the proponents of this interpretaion of made sin being stubborn haters of God. Let us look who God "chose"

Moses= muderer
Noah=drunk
abraham=foreignor
david= youngest, smallest
Saul/Paul= Christian hater!!!!!!
LEVI?MATT= hated by the jews
WOman at well= sinner
the blind, the poor the oppressed!!!!!! The outcasts Luba!!!!! Christ did nto send a messenger to these people, He personally ate with them, saved them, and the others could nto figure out why.

The children, whom the apostles stood between them and Christ. And what was His rebuke to them? Does a millstone ring a bell?

Joe, WHY does Scripture warn us so seriously, starting with Satan's lies in Eden, continuing with Israel's coddling and loving their false prophets while hating and killing the true ones, then on to the whited sepulchres Pharisees, and finishing with the severest threatenings against false church full of false teachers and believers in lies in the Book of Revelation? What do we do with these warnings? Are they in the Scriptures for us to love and treat everybody the same indiscriminately? What do you think is the correct way of reacting to all the warnings against false prophets and their believers in the Bible? I am not saying that we should go around hating and bashing anybody. Far from it. But how do we apply all these many warnings? Also we get again sidetracked from the theme of this thread. If you are interested in this subject, maybe there are other threads for it?

We must be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. There is another answer for you to put with Peters answer. Why do you continue to ask ME. I dont have the answers, but scripture does Luba. I have not said, Joe Kinney says this, so and so says that!!!!!!

When Christ wrote to the seven churches in rev, what was His goal? Repentance and truth.

While I disagree with Bob's views on the nature(s) of sin(s) - (threads elsewhere), his summary of what and why 'sinful christ' proponents believe in is excellent, and, hopefully, of use to the believers in this heresy too. May they repent, denounce this lie and believe in the saving Truth of the Righteous Jesus Christ.

Well this is very "tolerant" of you Luba. That is all I do. Look at the WHOLE of a persons writings.

I found this somewhere, saved it, but forgot who wrote it. But I agree:

The sacrificial victim had to be "without defect" (Leviticus 4:3, 23, 32). A hand would be laid on the unblemished sacrificial animal as a way of symbolizing a transfer of guilt (4:4, 24, 33). Note that the sacrificial animal did not thereby actually BECOME sinful by nature; rather, sin was IMPUTED to the animal and the animal acted as a sacrificial substitute. In like manner, Christ the Lamb of God was utterly unblemished (1 Peter 1:19), but our sin was imputed to Him and He was our sacrificial substitute on the cross of Calvary. Simply because our sin was imputed to Him does not mean He changed in nature. Christ was not sinful personally; He was made to be sin substitutionally.


Joe

[bgamall]

The last post is missing something. Christ died to reconcile the elect to God. They were unreconciled. If Christ did not in some sense become unreconciled, ie separated, we are still in our sins. The atonement has to be substitutionary, therefore in place of our irreconcilliation He became irreconciled, ie separated. On what level this occurred I do not know. But in some sense Christ had to become separated so that we who are elect could become unseparated. No He did not cease to be God, and no He did not do sin!! But in some sense He had to suffer the separation that was to be the punishment of the elect. Otherwise the atonement is not substitutionary. He took the place of those separated from God!

[Brandan Kraft]

Christ didn't have to do anything to satisy some sort of eternal law! He did what God appointed was pleasing to Him. I've heard too many times an appeal to eternal law philosophy to describe the motivation of the actions that God the Father and Christ have taken!

God does not send men to hell for eternity because His honor was infinitely offended, but because that is what He has determined is pleasing to Him.

Christ's dying on the cross and suffering in agony was of infinite worth to the Father because that is what the Father decreed would give Him pleasure. Christ's suffering is of infinite worth to us because it pleased the Father, not because it completes an unbiblical mathethematical formula.

Christ did not have to be separated from the Father in order to answer eternal law principle. He did not have to go to hell either as vain theologians have speculated. No, He had to suffer on the cross according to the pleasure of God. This was the agreement that was made in the eternal covenant of redemption between the members of the Godhead. And Christ fulfilled it, and in doing so, HE SAVED His people from their sin. Sin was imputed to Christ, and Righteousness was imputed to the elect - right there on the cross according to God's eternal decree.

[lionovjudah]

There was NO seperation. Paul gives evidence of this in his letter to Corinth

2cor 5;19.....“. . . God was in Christ reconciling a world unto Himself ”

And In Collosians 2;9...in him dwelleth all the fullness of
the Godhead bodily ”

The reason He was not seperated nor forsaken is because of our triune Godhead!!!!!

The trinity is the answer. The Trinity was and is involved in the redemption of mankind for history, and now at the final moment, the Father Denies the son? How can this be?

Egkataleipõ, translated forsaken:

To leave in a place or situation
To leave behind, among, leave surviving
To forsake, abandon, leave in straits, or helpless


So Christ was left alone, but not alone during this time on the cross. He was left alone because only the God-man could do what He did.

IF the triune Godhead was NEVER seperated in eternity, this can not be the only time, because : God is One! (Deuteronomy 6:4; I Corinthians 8:6).
God cannot deny Himself (II Timothy 2:13

[bgamall]

"So Christ was left alone, but not alone during this time on the cross. He was left alone because only the God-man could do what He did.

IF the triune Godhead was NEVER seperated in eternity, this can not be the only time, because : God is One! (Deuteronomy 6:4; I Corinthians 8:6).
God cannot deny Himself (II Timothy 2:13"

Again, what does this mean? You say Christ was left alone. What do you mean? All I said was that in some sense Christ was left alone, forsaken. I don't claim to understand how this took place. Do YOU know? There is no one here that knows, but it did happen. It is a mystery.

While we are at it, Brandon, and everyone, why don't we thrash out what it means to be the triune God? How can three people be one? Maybe we could grasp that mystery as well.

[lionovjudah]

"So Christ was left alone, but not alone during this time on the cross. He was left alone because only the God-man could do what He did.

IF the triune Godhead was NEVER seperated in eternity, this can not be the only time, because : God is One! (Deuteronomy 6:4; I Corinthians 8:6).
God cannot deny Himself (II Timothy 2:13"

Again, what does this mean? You say Christ was left alone. What do you mean? All I said was that in some sense Christ was left alone, forsaken. I don't claim to understand how this took place. Do YOU know? There is no one here that knows, but it did happen. It is a mystery.

While we are at it, Brandon, and everyone, why don't we thrash out what it means to be the triune God? How can three people be one? Maybe we could grasp that mystery as well.

He was left alone in the sense of finishing redemption within the triune Godhead. The father and the spirit did not suffer for our sins. it was Christ alone finishing what the trinity worked for eternity.

If God was IN Christ reconciling the world, this can only mean there is no seperation.

The problem arises when one does not differ between seperate vs distinct. I personally do not like when one defines the trinity using the word seperate. They are 3 distinct persons in one essence of God.'

For instance, look at the Covenant of Redemption. The Father Christ, and Spirit all have distinct roles in this "agreement" The Father Elects, Christ redeems/dies, the Spirit regenerates and calls the elect and applies.

[Brandan Kraft]

The trinity is not a mystery.

[lionovjudah]

The trinity is not a mystery.

I was waiting for that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are slipping brandan, you let him use that word for a while now!!!!!!!!!!!

[bgamall]

That is right Brandon, because Paul said it was possible to understand all mysteries, and the trinity is beyond understanding. Three minds or one Brandon? Or both?

But alas, we are off topic. I just believe that some sort of separation occurred in that Christ had a real experience of abandonment. Of course, the Father was not going to abandon him. However if He became a curse, then the Father had to turn away in some sense according to his nature. In my view He withheld blessing, which a holy God had to do.

[Brandan Kraft]

That is right Brandon, because Paul said it was possible to understand all mysteries, and the trinity is beyond understanding. Three minds or one Brandon? Or both?

This is the last post on this topic concerning the Trinity. If anyone wants to discuss the idea of "mystery", please start a new thread. We have a couple older ones that you can check including a blog entry:

Is the Trinity a Mystery?
http://www.5solas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2194

Beware of those who teach "Mystery"
http://www.5solas.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2194

From the discussion:

Three branches yet one government. Five players yet one basketball team. Two pieces of bread yet one hamburger bun. Three parties yet one coalition.

I don't see it as being difficult to understand. A lot of people seem troubled that the Trinity seems to be mathematically "3=1." Yet there is only an appearance of contradiction in "3=1." The law of contradiction says that a cannot be both a and non-a at the same time, and in the same sense, or relationship. Obviously we do not hold that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one at the same time and the same sense. They are one at the same time, but not in the same sense. Three separate persons make up one Godhead. In this sense they are one.

Some people seem to think that the Trinity presents us with such an equation: "3 persons = 1 person." But so much is not true. The Son cannot say, "I am the Father," and the Father cannot say, "I am the Son." Yet all of the persons in the Godhead are equally divine, so they can say, "we are one." This makes it "3 persons = 1 God."

If this much is a contradiction, we must conclude that any sort of football team is a contradiction because it involves the equation: 4 players plus one goalie = 1 team.

[bgamall]

"Christ didn't have to do anything to satisy some sort of eternal law! He did what God appointed was pleasing to Him. I've heard too many times an appeal to eternal law philosophy to describe the motivation of the actions that God the Father and Christ have taken!"

But they have to act according to their nature. So if Christ is become a curse for the elect hanging on a tree, then in some way the Father must withhold something from Him and turn away because a holy God cannot love that which is cursed. So in some sense there was a withholding of grace. If God says that counts as a separation I would not be one to argue. I just don't claim to understand it as some say they do but don't really. At least they have not taken all the scriptures into account and have not covered all the bases.

Is anyone here calling Paul a liar when He said that Christ was made a curse? Just wondering.

[InChristAlways]

That is right Brandon, because Paul said it was possible to understand all mysteries, and the trinity is beyond understanding. Three minds or one Brandon? Or both?

But alas, we are off topic. I just believe that some sort of separation occurred in that Christ had a real experience of abandonment. Of course, the Father was not going to abandon him. However if He became a curse, then the Father had to turn away in some sense according to his nature. In my view He withheld blessing, which a holy God had to do.

When God mentions hiding His face for a moment in Isaiah 54, wasn't this to Israel of the "flesh"?
Jesus became in everyway as His people of the flesh, just as Moses was of the flesh. How would Israel be redeemed from "Death" without the curse of the flesh being put to death?

Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting[#05769] kindness will I have compassion on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Hosea 13:14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

Isaiah 28:17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place. 18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.

It is interesting to note that both Stephen and Jesus gave up their Spirit, Jesus to God and Stephen to Jesus just different wording is used which I haven't really studied yet.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit/set before[#3908] My spirit.' " Having said this, He breathed His last.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on [God] and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive[#1209] my spirit."

[Robert R. Higby]

Christ was forsaken by the Father in the very sense that he bore our sins in his suffering and dying humanity. In no way does this imply separation; he was in the presence of the Father at all times. Neither will the wicked be separated from God when they experience the final wrath of God upon their sin. The torment is IN his presence, not AWAY FROM his presence--I know some disagree but we have gone over this a lot in other threads.

Reprobates are certainly separated from the presence of God's love and grace but not from the presence of God! No one from the beginning of time to eternity future can ever escape him.

[cprwc]

Greetings!
All of God's holiness, goodness, justice, mercy, truth, and sovereignty are in complete harmony as God truly is God. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the great "I Am" who reveals Himself as the only God and who is one in all of His perfections which include His sovereignty and His majesty and His justice. God is complete as God and Jesus, the eternal Son of God, is this holy "I Am" come in our flesh to be the propitiation for our sins. Remember this as your peace and joy.
This will be my one post on this thread and addresses the heart of this discussion:

1.

Heidelberg Catechism

"IV. LORD'S DAY.


[i]Question 9. Doth not God then do injustice to man, by requiring from him in his low, that which he cannot perform?

Answer. Not at all; [a] for God made man capable of performing it; but man, by the instigation [c] of the devil, and his own willful disobedience, [d] deprived himself and all his posterity of those divine gifts.
[b]Question 10. Will God suffer such disobedience and rebellion to go unpunished?

Answer. By no means; [e] but is terribly displeased [f] with our original was well as actual sins; and will punish them in his just judgment temporally and eternally, and he hath declared, [g] "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Question 11. Is not God then also merciful?

Answer. God is indeed merciful, [h] but also just; therefore his justice requires, [j] that sin which is committed against the most high majesty of God, be also punished with extreme, that is, with everlasting [k] punishment of body and soul.
[a]: Eccl. 7:29
: John 8:44; 2Cor. 11:3
[c]: Gen. 3:4,7
[d]: Rom. 5:12
[e]: Psa. 5:5
[f]: Rom. 1:18; Deut. 28:15; Heb. 9:27
[g]: Deut 27:27; Gal. 3:10
[h]: Ex. 24:6
[i]: Ex 20:5; Job 34:10,11
[j]: Psa. 5:5,6
[i][b][k]: Gen. 2:17; Rom. 6:23 THE SECOND PART--OF MAN'S DELIVERANCE

V. LORD'S DAY.


Question 12. Since then, by the righteous judgment of God, we deserved temporal and eternal punishment, is there no way by which we may escape that punishment, and be again received into favor?

Answer. God will have his justice [a] satisfied; and therefore we must make this full satisfaction, either by ourselves, or by another.
[b]Question 13. Can we ourselves then make this satisfaction?

Answer. By no means; [c] but on the contrary we [d] daily increase our debt.
Question 14. Can there be found anywhere, one, who is a mere creature, able to satisfy for us?

Answer. None; for, first, God will not [e] punish any other creature for the sin which man hath committed; and further, no mere creature can sustain the burden of God's eternal wrath against sin, so as to [f] deliver others from it.
Question 15. What sort of a mediator and deliverer then must we seek for?

Answer. For one who is very man, [g] and perfectly righteous; and yet more powerful than all creatures; that is, one who is also very [h] God.
[a]: Ex. 20:5
: Deut. 24:16; 2Cor. 5:14,15
[c]: Job 9:2,3; Job 15:14,15,16
[d]: Mat. 6:12; Isa. 64:6
[e]: Ezek. 18:20
[f]: Rev. 5:3; Psa. 49:8,9
[g]: 1Cor. 15:21; Rom. 8:3
[h]: Rom. 9:5; Isa. 7:14

[b]VI. LORD'S DAY.


Question 16. Why must he be very man, and also perfectly righteous?

Answer. Because the justice of God requires that the same human nature which hath sinned, should [a] likewise make satisfaction for sin; and one, who is himself a sinner, cannot satisfy for others.
[b]Question 17. Why must he in one person be also very God?

Answer. That he might, by the power of his Godhead [c] sustain in his human nature, the burden of God's wrath; and might [d] obtain for, and restore to us, righteousness and life.
Question 18. Who then is that Mediator, who is in one person both very God, and a real righteous man?

Answer. Our Lord Jesus Christ: [e] "who of God is made unto [f] us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption."
Question 19. Whence knowest thou this?

Answer. From the holy gospel, which God himself first revealed in Paradise; [g] and afterwards published by the patriarchs [h] and prophets, and represented by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law; and lastly, has fulfilled it [j] by his only begotten Son. [a]: Rom. 5:12,15
: 1Pet 3:18; Isa. 53:11
[c]: 1 Pet. 3:18; Acts 2:24; Isa. 53:8
[d]: 1John 1:2; Jer. 23:6; 2Tim. 1:10; John 6:51
[e]: Mat. 1:23; 1Tim. 3:16; Luke 2:11
[f]: 1Cor 1:30
[g]: Gen. 3:15
[h]: Gen. 22:17,18; Gen. 28:14; Rom. 1:2; Heb. 1:1; John 5:46
[i]: Heb. 10:7,8
[j]: Rom. 10:4; Heb. 13:8"

2.

Canons of Dordt
"SECOND HEAD OF DOCTRINE
Of the Death of Christ, and the Redemption of Men Thereby

Article 1. God is not only supremely merciful, but also supremely just. And his justice requires (as he hath revealed himself in his Word), that our sins committed against his infinite majesty should be punished, not only with temporal, but with eternal punishment, both in body and soul; which we cannot escape, unless satisfaction be made to the justice of God.
Article 2. Since therefore we are unable to make that satisfaction in our own persons, or to deliver ourselves from the wrath of God, he hath been pleased in his infinite mercy to give his only begotten Son, for our surety, who was made sin, and became a curse for us and in our stead, that he might make satisfaction to divine justice on our behalf.
Article 3. The death of the Son of God is the only and most perfect sacrifice and satisfaction for sin; and is of infinite worth and value, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world.
Article 4. This death derives its infinite value and dignity from these considerations, because the person who submitted to it was not only really man, and perfectly holy, but also the only begotten Son of God, of the same eternal and infinite essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit, which qualifications were necessary to constitute him a Savior for us; and because it was attended with a sense of the wrath and curse of God due to us for sin.
Article 5. Moreover, the promise of the gospel is, that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of his good pleasure sends the gospel.
Article 6. And, whereas many who are called by the gospel, do not repent, nor believe in Christ, but perish in unbelief; this is not owing to any defect or insufficiency in the sacrifice offered by Christ upon the cross, but is wholly to be imputed to themselves.
Article 7. But as many as truly believe, and are delivered and saved from sin and destruction through the death of Christ, are indebted for this benefit solely to the grace of God, given them in Christ from everlasting, and not to any merit of their own.
Article 8. For this was the sovereign counsel, and most gracious will and purpose of God the Father, that the quickening and saving efficacy of the most precious death of his Son should extend to all the elect, for bestowing upon them alone the gift of justifying faith, thereby to bring them infallibly to salvation: that is, it was the will of God, that Christ by the blood of the cross, whereby he confirmed the new covenant, should effectually redeem out of every people, tribe, nation, and language, all those, and those only, who were from eternity chosen to salvation, and given to him by the Father; that he should confer upon them faith, which together with all the other saving gifts of the Holy Spirit, he purchased for them by his death; should purge them from all sin, both original and actual, whether committed before or after believing; and having faithfully preserved them even to the end, should at last bring them free from every spot and blemish to the enjoyment of glory in his own presence forever. Article 9. This purpose proceeding from everlasting love towards the elect, has from the beginning of the world to this day been powerfully accomplished, and will henceforward still continue to be accomplished, notwithstanding all the ineffectual opposition of the gates of hell, so that the elect in due time may be gathered together into one, and that there never may be wanting a church composed of believers, the foundation of which is laid in the blood of Christ, which may steadfastly love, and faithfully serve him as their Savior, who as a bridegroom for his bride, laid down his life for them upon the cross, and which may celebrate his praises here and through all eternity."

Again, for your comfort.

"Question 17. Why must he in one person be also very God?

Answer. That he might, by the power of his Godhead [c] sustain in his human nature, the burden of God's wrath; and might [d] obtain for, and restore to us, righteousness and life."
-CPRWC

[Tobias Crisp]

Greetings!
All of God's holiness, goodness, justice, mercy, truth, and sovereignty are in complete harmony as God truly is God. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the great "I Am" who reveals Himself as the only God and who is one in all of His perfections which include His sovereignty and His majesty and His justice. God is complete as God and Jesus, the eternal Son of God, is this holy "I Am" come in our flesh to be the propitiation for our sins. Remember this as your peace and joy.
This will be my one post on this thread and addresses the heart of this discussion

Craig,

I guess I fail to understand how your brief comment and quote adds to the discussion of the issue of Christ being "made sin". Can you help me out?

[lionovjudah]

Craig,

I guess I fail to understand how your brief comment and quote adds to the discussion of the issue of Christ being "made sin". Can you help me out?

Me too. I am looking within the "one" post, but are you sure you meant to quote the 55 pages of the HC for this thread?

[Brandan Kraft]

Scott price handed me a CD of Mark's sermon when Scott and Anthony visited me yesterday. I ripped it to mp3 format, and I am uploading it for those interested. You can download it here: http://www.5solas.org/mp3/Abolutesubsitition.mp3

[GraceAmbassador]

This will be my one post on this thread and addresses the heart of this discussion

Thank you! Now please, keep your promise!

Milt