some questions

[lionovjudah]

Since the thread was closed, can anyone address these questios please:


I have not studied the issue. I just automatically believed in eternal conscious punishing for ever. Unending conscious torment. One reason I immediately deny annihilation is because I automatically equate the teaching with SDA's, JW's, WWCOG and other sects that I believe are anti christ. But is this right for me to do? I will ask some questions, and anyone who can offer any help will be appreciated.

1) Is ECT(eternal conscious torment) morally against the revelation of God in Christ?

2) Does ECT represent the justice of God in scripture? Is there any language where the penalty in a short life time, should be unending? I thought the penalty was comensurate with the evil done.

3) And does ECT present us with some dualistic good vs evil forever? This is the biggest issue for me. Christs complete victory, would appear to be incomplete if sinners, unredeemed, reprobates were still alive.

4) Can one believe in some form of annihilation that exacts a punishment, but not have the punisment be unending? Does the action have to equal the result?


I will agree that the fire is never quenched, but does this equate that the body and soul dieth not unending?

When I burn papers at my house, the fire will rage as long as I feed it. But the same paper does not burn unending.


Joe

[Tobias Crisp]

Joe,

Just a few quick notes of response:

One reason I immediately deny annihilation is because I automatically equate the teaching with SDA's, JW's, WWCOG and other sects that I believe are anti christ. But is this right for me to do?

Just because a certain group, sect, denomination, or even cult teaches a particular doctrine does not in itself prove it's false. I am completely open on this particular topic.

1) Is ECT(eternal conscious torment) morally against the revelation of God in Christ?

Contrary to Carpenter and others I do not believe that either view is morally against the revelation of God.

2) Does ECT represent the justice of God in scripture? Is there any language where the penalty in a short life time, should be unending? I thought the penalty was comensurate with the evil done.

If this is the case then Christ should have suffered eternally for the elect. Both views when properly understood do represent the justice of God in the damnation of the reprobate.

3) And does ECT present us with some dualistic good vs evil forever? This is the biggest issue for me. Christs complete victory, would appear to be incomplete if sinners, unredeemed, reprobates were still alive.

I do find this argument convincing as well as the argument that says that Scripture no where specifically teaches that we have an immortal soul. A few Scriptures even indicate that we receive immortality at the resurrection.

4) Can one believe in some form of annihilation that exacts a punishment, but not have the punisment be unending? Does the action have to equal the result?

This is the heart of the question and the answer depends on which view you take. Again, I am open on the whole issue. I originally held to the traditional view then strongly leaned toward a form of annihilation but now I'm somewhere in between.

I will agree that the fire is never quenched, but does this equate that the body and soul dieth not unending?

Not necessarily but again this question gets to the heart of the whole debate now doesn't it?

[lionovjudah]

Thank you for responding Anthony. The irony is I NEVER even considered any form of annihilation. Now that I look at scripture as a whole, I find this topic interesting and not extremely clear, or as clear as my mind would like it.

Do you know of any credible sources that look at this issue? I posted one link by Arthur Custance that touches on it.


Joe

[InChristAlways]

Thank you for responding Anthony. The irony is I NEVER even considered any form of annihilation. Now that I look at scripture as a whole, I find this topic interesting and not extremely clear, or as clear as my mind would like it.

Do you know of any credible sources that look at this issue? I posted one link by Arthur Custance that touches on it.
Joe

I found some pretty good articles at this site. Fire is a "purifier" and is never "quenched" because God is a consuming fire and He will always exists as will the earth.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

The fire is also for believers as John spoke this to those who did believe in God.

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Bad translation is always the main "enemy" of sciptures but I found his article on the second death interesting. He is not too fond of the religious church system of today, and calls people to "come out of her", and like Brandon, dispensationlist futurism is a "H....." LOL.
http://www.godfire.net/Hellidx.html

http://www.godfire.net/63SecondDeath.html
If either thought, eternal damnation or annihilation, was a part of God's counsel and the foundation of His truth to the Church, it is odd that they never surfaced in Paul's or any of the other foundational teachings in the Bible. (A few scriptures can be misconstrued as referring to annihilation, that once a person dies he is dead forever, but such thoughts do not have the substantial foundation to stand in the presence of truth. Nevertheless, many are dancing to that hopeless tune.)

Augustine, Jerome, Ambrose, and other post-Nicaean Church leaders can take much of the credit for establishing the thought of "eternal damnation" in the ranks of Christianity. Dante, of course, like an undeclared prophet, helped to strengthen this ruse. He supplied religion with ample imaginations for countless hair-singeing sermons over the centuries. His epic poem, The Divine Comedy, although seldom read or consciously considered as a major source of doctrine, seems to have become a sacred scroll to the church at large.

Not many have heard of Preston Eby, but he is no great lover of the carnal church systems of today either so you might find him interesting. I especially like his article on Abraham's bosom in Luke 16. Just depends on how deep you want to get into the Bible.

http://www.godfire.net/eby/

http://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form...................

........................The "Great Gulf fixed," which severs those who once were nigh but now are cast out, though utterly impassable for man, is not so for "Him who has the key of David, who opens and no man shuts, and shuts and no man opens, who HAS THE K-E-Y-S OF DEATH AND HELL" (Rev. 1:18; 3:7). Andrew Jukes asked, "Who are we, to say that the gulf, impassable to man, cannot be passed by Christ, or that He cannot bring the last prisoner safely back, even out of the lowest prison? As well might we argue that because 'the Ethiopian cannot change his skin, or the leopard his spots,' - because the evil man can never by his own act make himself good, - therefore God can never change him. The firstfruits are a proof of what God can do."
I declare to you today that THE CHRIST HIMSELF CROSSED THAT ABYSS. There is the difference! You say that Abraham said, "Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they which would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us." Let me remind you that, although Abraham said that, the Christ did not. That is right, Abraham; you could not bridge it! And even if you could, you did not have the keys to the gates. But the Christ crossed that Gulf, and HIS SALVATION BRIDGED IT. Christ bridged it! The Christ Himself IS THE BRIDGE! It is no use talking nonsense, saying that the Gulf was not bridged. It was not bridged at the time Jesus told that story, but when He arose and grasped the keys of death and of hell, He made a way for His banished to return.

[wildboar]

For a good book long critique of annhilationism get a copy of Hell on Trial by Robert Peterson. For those who are unaware of books made of paper, you might want to read the following: http://www.reformed.com/pub/hell.htm

[InChristAlways]

Hi. As I get more into revelation I had forgotten about this passage in Zech 5 and the "woman in a basket". What significance does this have prophetically and I am now pondering a somewhat differing view of the "woman" in revelation 12 because of this.

Jesus came from the house of Judah and Judah was even called a "harlot" in the OT[and "sister" of Israel].[Even Judas that betrayed Him means "Judah"?]
Any views on Zech 5 and also the significance of the "2 women" instead of 1?Pretty interesting "vision". Thanks.

zech 5:5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth. 6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is the ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their appearance in all the land 7 (and, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead); and this is a woman sitting in the midst of the ephah. 8 And he said,This is Wickedness/: and he cast her down into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. 9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there came forth two women, and the wind was in their wings; now they had wings like the wings of a stork; and they lifted up the ephah between earth and heaven. 10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? 11 And he said unto me, To build her a house in the land of Shinar["babylonia": and when it is prepared, she shall be set there in her own place.

Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast [which was] full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

[Robert R. Higby]

For a good book long critique of annhilationism get a copy of Hell on Trial by Robert Peterson.

The trouble with Peterson (and with Morey, Gerstner, etc.) is simple. They assume that Rabbinic and Patristic teaching is in harmony with the ancient Hebrew and apostolic view. This is a false hermeneutic. It does not take into account the Nonconformist tradition of which Jesus and Paul were a part.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not an annihilationist! I just realize that the evidence of these men doesn't stand up to the crucible of 'hell fire' analysis in light of the historical evidence! They actually think that inter-testamental Rabbinics and post-apostolic Patristics who had NO gospel teaching are reliable sources. I do not. The Pharisees were the enemies of truth and slaughtered true believers for many years prior to the coming of Jesus in the flesh.

[Robert R. Higby]

The first origin of any teaching is paramount to all consideration of truth. The doctrine of eternal, torturing hellfire was invented by the Jewish maiden Judith. It first appears in her writings and cannot be found in history before that.

The traditional doctrine of hell was invented in the Maccabean era by 'the church effeminate'. The following link will briefly describe her place in history:

http://www.torah.org/learning/women/class53.html

[InChristAlways]

The first origin of any teaching is paramount to all consideration of truth. The doctrine of eternal, torturing hellfire was invented by the Jewish maiden Judith. It first appears in her writings and cannot be found in history before that.

The traditional doctrine of hell was invented in the Maccabean era by 'the church effeminate'. The following link will briefly describe her place in history:

http://www.torah.org/learning/women/class53.html

Hi BT.Interesting My family was catholic back in my youth and I was even an altar boy and we also believed in eternal hellfire. We are of course the saved Elect so we don't have to worry about it, but I am still studying on revelation to get a better idea of what does happen to the wicked after death [and even us!!!]

For example, here is an interesting use of a word.

After the "2 witnesses" are taking up [which I feel may be "symbolically" around the 6th seal], it shows Judgement, reward and "destruction" of the wicked.
The word used here appears to be more for a symbolic form of "corruption of the flesh/mind".

It is only used 4 times outside of revelation so hard to really define it more accurately.

Reve 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great,And should destroy[#1311] those who destroy the earth."

diaphtheiro (Strong's 1311) occurs 6 times in 5 verses:


1311 diaphtheiro dee-af-thi'-ro from 1225 and 5351; to rot thoroughly, i.e. (by implication) to ruin (passively, decay utterly, figuratively, pervert):--corrupt, destroy, perish. 1223 dia dee-ah' a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):--after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause)5351 phtheiro fthi'-ro probably strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil (by any process) or (generally) to ruin (especially figuratively, by moral influences, to deprave):--corrupt (self), defile, destroy. 5349 phthartos fthar-tos' from 5351; decayed, i.e. (by implication) perishable:--corruptible

2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward [man] is being renewed day by day.

1 Timothy 6:5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a [means of] gain. From such withdraw yourself.

[InChristAlways]

I was studying on Isaiah 28 and trying to harmonize it with Isaiah 61:2 and Daniel 12. I have no idea how the jewish religion views this [since they are still waiting on their own messiah], but is Daniel 12 fulfilling Isaiah 28 and 61?

Daniel 12 appears to imply that only a "Remnant" would be saved out of Daniel's people, at least that is the way the translation reads. Any views on this? Thanks.
Steve

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD [Christ arriving], And the day of vengeance of our God [Daniel 12?];

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the Overflowing Scourge Passes Through [Daniel 12?], It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone [Christ arriving], a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be saved, Every one who is found written in the book.

[ray kikkert]

I was studying on Isaiah 28 and trying to harmonize it with Isaiah 61:2 and Daniel 12. I have no idea how the jewish religion views this [since they are still waiting on their own messiah], but is Daniel 12 fulfilling Isaiah 28 and 61?

Daniel 12 appears to imply that only a "Remnant" would be saved out of Daniel's people, at least that is the way the translation reads. Any views on this? Thanks.
Steve

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD [Christ arriving], And the day of vengeance of our God [Daniel 12?];

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the Overflowing Scourge Passes Through [Daniel 12?], It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone [Christ arriving], a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be saved, Every one who is found written in the book.

God's chosen are spoken of as a remnant. Not all Israel is of Israel as we see in Romans 9.

Let us have our hearts warmed by trhe testimony of such as were found worthy to suffer for the sake of Christ:

..... from Fox's Book of Martyr's- accounts of persecution in Scotland.
"

The year following the martyrdoms of the before-mentioned persons, viz. 1539, two others were apprehended on a suspicion of herresy; namely, Jerome Russell and Alexander Kennedy, a youth about eighteen years of age.

These two persons, after being some time confined in prison, were brought before the archbishop for examination. In the course of which Russell, being a very sensible man, reasoned learnedly against his accusers; while they in return made use of very opprobrious language.

The examination being over, and both of them deemed heretics, the archbishop pronounced the dreadful sentence of death, and they were immediately delivered over to the secular power in order for execution.

The next day they were led to the place appointed for them to suffer; in their way to which, Russell, seeing his fellow-sufferer have the appearance of timidity in his countenance, thus addressed him:

"Brother, fear not; greater is He that is in us, than He that is in the world. The pain that we are to suffer is short, and shall be light; but our joy and consolation shall never have an end. Let us, therefore, strive to enter into our Master and Savior's joy, by the same straight way which He hath taken before us. Death cannot hurt us, for it is already destroyed by Him, for whose sake we are now going to suffer."
When they arrived at the fatal spot, they both kneeled down and prayed for some time; after which being fastened to the stake, and the fagots lighted, they cheerfully resigned their souls into the hands of Him who gave them, in full hopes of an everlasting reward in the heavenly mansions. "