Spiritual Death

[Fledge]

When you guys speak of total depravity...in particular being "dead". Are we talking an elimination of all human ability to understand or respond yo God, or a total seperation from God as described in Isaiah 59:2?
Just curious. I'm still studying this topic of salvation, chosen, free will, etc....

[Christ_†_Alone]

The simple answer is "spiritually dead", unable to seek God, understand His word, or have any desire to repent towards Him, at all.

I'd go into it more, but I'm not well today, surely someone will be along to get into it more with you.

[Odyssey]

I know that I am kinda late on this (sorry) but I thought I'd give my understanding of it.

I believe that 'death' in it's primary definition is 'covenantal death' and not neccasarily spiritual death. Let me explain the difference:

In Genesis 2.16-17, god said, 'From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.' From this we see that the penalty of eating from the tree was death.

And then we read what happened when they ate from the tree: 'So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life.' Here we see god's definition of death, separation from him. But his is more than just 'spiritual death.' For how can the thing created truly be without some type of relationship with it's creator? Adam's relationship was more than spiritual it was covenantal. Yes, god is a spirit and his people must worship him in spirit and truth. But covenant is what makes our relationship with him different, special. Like Jesus said concerning common grace, god causes the rain to fall on both the just and the unjust. We know that god has knowledge of all people on the earth but to Israel he said 'You only have I known' (Amos 3.2) Therefore there is a special relationship between god and his people. This is what was lost through Adam. Furthermore, we know, we can't escape god. David said that even if he went to the grave, god would be there.

From this 'death' the elect of god can be 'resurrected.' That is, they can once more have that covenantal life, i.e., eternal life, with god because of the work of Christ for 'his people.' Those whom god chose 'from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth' (2Thess. 2.13).

On the other hand, those who remain in this state of 'covenantal death' when the physically die, will experience 'spiritual death.' I believe that 'spiritual death' has to do with what Revelation calls the 'second death': 'But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death' (21.8) The 'lake' is not the 'second death' it is the being sentenced to eternity there. That, imho, is 'spiritual death.'

I hope that I have not confused you even more.

Grace to you,

jak

[Fledge]

Nah, not totally confused. But not sure exactly what you mean by 'covenantal death' .

[Odyssey]

Well I would say that is confusion for that was what the post was suppose to relate!

'Covenantal death' is separation from god in this life. Whereas 'spiritual death' is separation fro god for 'eternity.' If someone has died physically in a non-covenantal state, i.e., without Christ, they are then sentenced to 'spiritual death.' Someone can be 'resurrected' from covenantal death but not from spiritual death.

Is that better?

Grace to you,

jak

[Fledge]

Yea. Clears up that difference nicely.